Short nights and short naps

[mumofalice]

DS has just turned 19 months and I am so fed up with his sleep.

TBH I should've posted about this a long time ago but I just kept telling myself it would settle down eventually: when we got to 1 nap for instance or when I could stop blaming his teeth or developmental leaps or SR, etc, etc, etc - but now I'm not beginning to think that he's just a rubbish sleeper and always will be 

My DD (6 yo) has always been HSN and sensitive to OT - due to her touchy nature I've always paid close attention to her sleep needs. Even now at 6yo she will take a nap when it's on offer (or she'll take the option of quiet time in her room and fall asleep).

DS is a whole different kettle of fish and I'm ashamed to say that even now, 19 months down the line, I still haven't worked him out at all  When we did the 'know your baby' quiz he came out equal in all personalities - from both DH's and my answers even though they were different! I've never worked out whether he's HSN, LSN or ASN - I suspect he won't be HSN like his older sister but at the same time my 'instinct' (if I do have one) just tells me that he doesn't get enough sleep - but that he can 'survive' on less than he needs and doesn't meltdown like DD - iykwim?

I do blame myself a little bit - with DD I didn't have another LO to work around and therefore I could commit more time to working on ST with her, which is a good job really as I don't think she would've coped with constant sleep disruption. When DS arrived we had nursery trips twice a day, swimming lessons, CM pick ups, etc - there never seemed to be a day that had the same routine  And that meant that we never seemed to have two days the same routine wise from him either - every so often I would get a decent night or decent nap, maybe even 2 days in a row and I'd think we'd finally cracked it - only for it all to fall apart again.

We've had (what I call) EWs for so long that I now believe that 6am is a lie-in! When I was BF I used to envy all those Mums who had the 5am-ish feed - and their babies would go back off to sleep. I would've happily have carried on with that 5am feed (even now) if it meant DS would go back to sleep til 7am (we've always had the 7am start of day rule - since starting BW with DD at 10 weeks  ) DS weaned himself from BF at around 14 months - we were just down to the BT feed more or less and he refused one night (I *think* he was severely OT) and then refused it every night after too, just like that   

For a while now (what seems like forever) I've been trying set nap and BT as trying to work out A times just never worked this time round at all. Nap time is 12.30 and BT at 7pm - WU varies between 5.30 and 6.50 (very rare). The last few days I thought we were progressing again as we had 2 or 3 days in a row when we made it to 6.15am or after. I'm not sure if the nap should be earlier or not but on the 2 days I work I pick DS up from Mum's or CM's and it's the earliest I can get him down so I try and stay consistent the other days too.

He goes to sleep fairly quickly for naps - I'd say within 5 mins but BT he can be 'talking' for up to half an hour. When he wakes in the morning - I don't rush in to him as he doesn't cry out, just chats for a while. I go to him if the chatting turns to crying or if it's time to get him up - on those rare occasions that he's woken near to 7am.

His naps are often under 2hrs (which I *think* he needs to have a restorative nap, right?) and I would say that 9/10 he wakes up crying from them - which makes me think he's not rested  Sometimes if I go in and lie him down (he's tends to be sitting up when crying) and give him his muslin (lovie) he will got back off for a bit - other times he will get more upset so I just get him up. I don't have the luxury of time to resettle him for hours as we have to collect DD from school.

Talking of school run - need to go and get DD now (and believe it or not DS is still napping LOL so will have to wake him!).

BBL - in the meantime if anyone has any words of wisdom they would be much appreciated 

[anna*]

What's a 'normal' day's routine Berni?

[mumofalice]

Hey Anna, thanks for popping by  I wish there was a 'normal' - that's part of the problem I just don't know where I am day to day 

Ideally I would like it to be:
WU 7am (never going to happen)
Nap 12.15/30 for 2 hrs (more would be lovely  )
BT 7pm

I just don't know if I'm being realistic - as I said DD was HSN so I wonder if I'm just expecting too much  My gut feeling is (and always has been) that he just doesn't get enough sleep - but as he's generally a happy little man it's sooo hard to tell. I've never been able to read his tired signs - in fact I'd swear blind he didn't have any!

Our days go something like this:
WU - varies btw 5.30 on a bad day and 6.50 on a very good day (these are rare)
Nap - 12.15/30 for btw 1h 20m and 1h 50m - every so often we might get a longer nap 2h 15m but again these are not the norm
BT - aim for 6.45/7pm - he used to be out like a light but recently he chats for about half an hr

We also get lots of crying out in the night - sometimes he SS but other times I have to go in and lay him down.

He is an independent sleeper (maybe I did manage to do one thing right!) as in he goes to sleep independently but he seems to struggle with going back off if he wakes up, iykwim? I don't have a video monitor but my theory is that he sits up when he wakes (cos I find him sitting when I go in) and he can't seem to lay back down and settle again - unless I do it for him, but again this doesn't work every time.

My gut feeling is that a lot of the time he is OT but he just seems to handle it - or maybe he's just really LSN  All I know is that I feel more like a FTM with him than I did with DD - none of the things I 'learnt' with DD work for DS. DD didn't go to one nap til she was this age (DS has been on one nap for a while - in the hope it would improve things) and when she was sleeping min 12h nights and napping for 2.5/3h - in fact I would often have to wake her.

I also think that maybe sometimes his day is too long (esp when he has the pre 6am WU) but there's not much more I can do. DS just has to fit in with DD's routine - which includes afterschool activities as well as the school run, poor little guy doesn't have a chance really 

[anna*]

It does sound a bit OT. Any chance you could so a couple of 4.5hr morning A times to see if you get a long nap? Does he tack on if you do am early bed?

[mumofalice]

I would love to do a couple of 4.5hr mornings but I really struggle - which is why I was hoping that getting to the (illusive long) one nap stage would sort out the problems.

The two days a wk he's in childcare (with Mum and CM) I pick him up as soon as I can after work but I can't get him down for a nap before 12.15pm at the earliest - usually nearer 12.30pm. On Monday and Friday we do classes - so I struggle then too  Plus I thought going for set nap and BT meant sticking to the times as much as possible - but maybe I understood wrong?

TBH I don't think he tacks on with EBT but as I struggle to get him in bed earlier due to DD's schedule I guess I haven't really tried it - tonight might be the time tho cos he was awake before 6.30am, nap at 12.25pm (prob asleep by 12.30) and woke crying at just before 2pm - I left him a few mins to see if he would settle, he didn't so I laid him down and said it was nap time but I'm going to have to get him up as he's not settling 

[anna*]

Yes it does but it seems like set naps aren't working for you right now? If you suspect OT then maybe just one 4.5 morning A would get him a nice long nap that would help. That definitely sounds like an OT nap today. There's no way mine could have handled 6hrs+ A time at 19 months. I know it's really hard with an older one - maybe all you can do is ride it out

[mumofalice]

Yes it does but it seems like set naps aren't working for you right now?

Think that's an understatement LOL - I really don't feel like anything is working . . . I know it could be much worse, but my gut feeling is that it could be better too  I've always said that DS was BW-proof, so maybe I am just wishful thinking.

Friday night I managed to get him down a bit earlier but not much in the end - think it was 6.45pm. He woke at 5.17am on Saturday  I went in and laid him down, said it was BT and left him. I dozed on and off til just before 7am and I think he probably did the same - tho he may just have chatted the whole time as I could always hear him whenever I 'woke'. I put him down for a nap at 11.45am - was aiming for earlier but we had to pop out in the am and it took longer than I'd anticipated  He did go to sleep fairly quickly but woke at 1.20pm, I left him to see if he would SS but he didn't so got him up. Was hoping to do EBT but after 2 parties with DD in the pm we struggled once again so it was 6.45pm. The good news is that I didn't hear him til 6.30am this morning - that's a really good night for us.

Early(ish) nap again today (11.45am) but took a while to settle - chatted til after 12. Woke around 1.30pm and once again didn't settle  BT at 6.50pm, chatted for a good 20mins before going to sleep.

I just don't feel like he gets enough sleep for a 19 mo - but maybe I'm wrong.

There's no way mine could have handled 6hrs+ A time at 19 months.

I don't think he can really - he just does somehow  Very hard to see tired signs 

I know it's really hard with an older one - maybe all you can do is ride it out

It's way harder than I'd thought it would be - everyone else seems to make it work somehow. I just feel like I'm failing big time 

[C&B&E]

Hugs berni. No advice really, but we are in a similar boat and I just wanted to say that not everyone seems to be able to make it work  . Ev has always been a terrible sleeper, and we still have NW most nights, ew's every day,  and she is definitely ot. But like your DS, she seems to be able to 'cope' with it (much more than touchy, hsn ds) and so in some ways we are just riding it out. I'm not sure what else we can do  .
Can you throw in some early naps/ebt at weekends?

[anna*]

I just don't feel like he gets enough sleep for a 19 mo - but maybe I'm wrong.

On the other hand though - if he's generally happy, generally sleeps OK at night (I know EWs are a pain) - what other measure of 'enough sleep' is there? I mean it may be true that more sleep would be 'better', but if he's happy and thriving then whatever he's getting is 'enough', yk?

There's no way mine could have handled 6hrs+ A time at 19 months.

I don't think he can really - he just does somehow  Very hard to see tired signs 

Although she wouldn't have been falling apart. She's very angel/textbook and gets on with life with whatever sleep she gets. I just meant it would  show up in OT naps and nights.

[*Becky*]

hugs bernie - M's EWings were awful until we got a gro-clock. Now we manage to get to 6.45am every day and sometimes she even sleeps past it until about 7.15am. Until we used it at 26 months she was literally up at 5.30/5.45am every. single. day.

[anna*]

Oh yes. Stan was like that too. I had countless, desperate threads on here about his chronic EWs - the low point being his 2nd birthday when he woke up at 4.20 and never resettled. Then we got the Groclock. I know it is a while off but something to think about for the future. Stan at 26 months was definitely getting a lot more sleep in 24 hrs than he had been at 18 months 

[mumofalice]

Hugs berni. No advice really, but we are in a similar boat and I just wanted to say that not everyone seems to be able to make it work  .

Thanks for the hugs  And for letting me know it's not just me that isn't able to 'make it work' 

Seems like E and N are similar - ie most likely OT but coping somehow. Also sounds like their older siblings B and A are similar too - touchy and HSN so unable to cope. Think I'll just have to ride it out with you - like you say there doesn't seem much else I can do  I am trying to do early naps and EBT if possible - not that it seems to make any difference LOL!

I mean it may be true that more sleep would be 'better', but if he's happy and thriving then whatever he's getting is 'enough', yk?

More sleep would definitely be 'better' (if not for him, for me  ) - and maybe he is getting 'enough' as he is generally happy BUT I have noticed that we're having a lot more tearful episodes and mini-meltdowns this last week - that may just be a glimpse of things to come (ie Terrible Twos) but I do wonder if it's tiredness  So hard to understand these little folk sometimes, eh?!

hugs bernie - M's EWings were awful until we got a gro-clock. Now we manage to get to 6.45am every day and sometimes she even sleeps past it until about 7.15am. Until we used it at 26 months she was literally up at 5.30/5.45am every. single. day.

Thanks for the hugs Becky  And for sharing. I've definitely been thinking about the gro-clock as I've heard lots of success stories - however I think he's probably a bit young just now? But I do admit that I've had it on a mental list for his 2nd birthday for a while LOL! It's funny that it was never on a wish list for A at all. She did go through a period of EWs when she was months old - crept back from 7.20am gradually til we got to 4.45am  But she would be in bed for the night by 5.30pm at the latest so was still getting a decent amount of sleep, yk? She was in the process of 3-2 naps and I just had to push her 5 mins every day til we got back to 'normal' - unfortunately there isn't a 'normal' with DS! It's a good job he's such a cutie or I'd be asking for refund 

Anna - think you've answered my question really . . . that the gro-clock is something to think about for the future. It's funny I thought I remembered reading your threads about Stan's EWs all those yrs ago but wasn't sure if it was you or someone else. Strange to think that Stan was getting more sleep at 26 months than at 18 months - maybe that's a ray of hope . . .

Things definitely not improving as yet  He woke yesterday at 6am, got him down for nap as early as poss after work btw 12.15/30pm. He creid out at 1.00pm and woke about 2pm. BT was a tad early - lights were out after stories by 6.45pm and he was still chatting at 7.25pm  He woke this morning at 5.40am 

I am so worried about the clocks going back this weekend - EWs will be super EWs then  Wish me luck!

[*Becky*]

I am so worried about the clocks going back this weekend - EWs will be super EWs then   Wish me luck!

uggh, yeah. Not fun. Good luck!

[C&B&E]

I am so worried about the clocks going back this weekend - EWs will be super EWs then   Wish me luck!

uggh, yeah. Not fun. Good luck!

oh man....I'd forgotten about that 

[Joy-filled]

Just thought I'd pop on to say I'm following along with interest.  Despite constant assistance here from wonderful mods and other mums my DS seems BW-proof too.  I've been here since he was 6 months old and here we are at 14 months and still getting short naps, interrupted nights and EWs.  We've never figured out A times that lead to good naps and we RARELY get STTNs.  While I think he's OT and that is the reason for short naps and interrupted nights, I think in a sense he also somehow gets "enough" since he's generally quite a happy boy.  I just wish we could both get solid sleep one of these days but I'm realizing it still might not happen for many months yet.  Hugs to you and wishing I could send some sleepy vibes your way but we're a tad short on them around here too  .  We shall survive, though . 

[mumofalice]

Thanks for popping by Char K - it does sound like we're in a similar place with our BW-proof boys 

The time change certainly didn't help things . . . but then I didn't expect it too  Naps on Sunday and Monday were ridiculously short (and late in the day  ). On Sunday we went to Eureka (it's a childrens' museum) and DS was beside himself with joy - it's probably the one place in the world you're allowed to run around and touch every button and it's all at LOs level  He was like a little whirlwind. He crashed in the car as soon as we left but it was probably around 2pm by then. Of course as soon as the car stopped he was wide awake - after only 45 mins. Got him to bed early-ish but he just did his usual pre BT chat for 30 mins  Woke before 6am yesterday and he was with my Mum all day as I took DD out for a girls' day. I told Mum he'd probably need to go down about 11.30am - when I got back he hadn't gone to sleep til 12.45 (he sleeps on the sofa and when she laid him down he kept getting up  ) and only slept an hour cos my older brother and niece had called in and disturbed him. Mum said he was inconsolable (OT much?  ) when he woke - she's never seen him upset and he was sobbing, bless him  Did EBT last night and he woke at 5.50am this morning again - so we're back to pre 6am WU  I was working today so he ended up going down for a nap late after I picked him up from Mum's - he fell asleep in the car and I transferred him to the cot (must've been tired to sleep through the transfer!) and he cried out around 2hrs but actually settled and woke after a total of 3hrs  I wonder if that means he'll wake even earlier tomorrow . . . FX the answer to that is no!

[mumofalice]

Okay so this sleep thing is really starting to get me down - it seems to be getting worse, if that's possible!

Our lowest spot so far was in half term when we went to the coast overnight - set off at nap time and both LOs fell asleep in the car (yes, my 6YO DD too!) DH coughed about 45 mins into the journey - it woke DS up and then he saw a horse out of his window so of course he was awake for the rest of the journey - DD slept all the way! There's a long story that follows but to cut it short the LOs didn't end up in bed until 10.15pm that night (there was a good reason - I don't think DD has ever been up past 8pm at the latest!). Believe it or not DS woke at 5.35am the next day - and woke everyone else up too  It was a one off overnight hotel stay so I just drew a line under it and moved on . . .

But here's what the last couple of days have been like:
Yesterday: awake at 6am
S: 12.50pm-2.10pm - Long A time due to me working, followed by short nap
BT: Tried EBT of 6pm - took 30 mins to settle, had to go in after 15 mins to lay him back down, stopped chatting at 6.30pm. Woke around 7.45pm crying - had to go in and lie him down again, gave muslin and he settled. Cried out a couple of times in the night but SS.

Today: awake at 5.35am
S: 12.40pm-1.40pm - again long A time due to work. He was crying 'Mum-mum, out' - I've been back in 3 times, laid him down and said it's nap time . . . strange thing is that I sat down to write this cos I'm desperate (1hr nap after 7hrs A time and 11 hr night just does not seem enough to me  ) and I think for the first time he may have dropped back off . . .

I know I shouldn't compare as DD was/is HSN and DS is probably LSN (though part of me thinks he is just OT half the time) but it's hard not to - and it just doesn't seem right that 9/10 a 6YO has more sleep in a 24hr period than a 20 month old.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE BW and I wouldn't be the parent I am if I hadn't found it - and I would never have understood my Touchy with a hint of Textbook DD - it just seems that DS is BW-proof and I feel a bit ripped off that I've tried to BW him from birth and it doesn't seem to have worked 

Any thoughts, tips, BTDT experience most welcome 

[*Becky*]

oh hun, it's hard isn't it. DD is a nightmare on car journeys, she has never ever slept more than 50 mins even when a baby and now we usually get 10-20 mins which makes for a tired girl on a day out!
He really sounds OT to me...sorry, not what you wanted to hear I know.
Is he teething??

If it were me I would just set a nap and BT and within 15 mins stick to it. If he is up at 6am then could you do a 12pm nap and a 6.30pm bt?

[Joy-filled]

Hugs in return to you too.  As you said when you posted on my thread, our DS' really are quite similar.  My DS would've done the same thing in the car - easily woke from a simple thing like a cough and that would be the end of it.  My DH and I have to cover his car seat with this black-out type shade if there's going to be any hope of him sleeping and we sit like statues and whisper quietly to each other with the fan blowing as loud as it will to try to create white noise.  Yet, a motorcycle past us on the highway once and woke A up anyway  .

I agree with Becky, for your own sanity I'd do set nap and BT.  It takes most of the guessing out of things and helps create some semblance of routine.  What do you think?

[mumofalice]

He really sounds OT to me...sorry, not what you wanted to hear I know.
Is he teething??

Actually I did want to hear that  as that's my gut feeling . . . however it's gone on so long that I'm beginning to wonder.

As for teething - yes he is . . . he is the slowest teether EVER. Gets one at a time and as one comes through the next one starts - so it's like a permanent thing  Am not sure how much 'pain' he's in as he's not screaming with them, iykwim? I'm embarrassed to say that I do medicate every night tho (I think I only gave meds to DD a handful of times) - but I was told by a friend who is a dental hygienist never to underestimate the pain they are in - it's like us having toothache, which I know from experience is very painful.

If it were me I would just set a nap and BT and within 15 mins stick to it. If he is up at 6am then could you do a 12pm nap and a 6.30pm bt?

I agree with Becky, for your own sanity I'd do set nap and BT.  It takes most of the guessing out of things and helps create some semblance of routine.  What do you think?

I am trying to do set nap and BT and stick to it as close as possible - though I know it doesn't look like that  I aim for 12.15pm nap and 7pm BT these timings are due to work and after school stuff with DD that he has to come to with us. I can probably get him in bed a tad earlier but it doesn't seem like he tacks (tho maybe he just needs more early nights) and we could end up with an even earlier WU! I have always been a fan of EBT (I know it scares the pants off some people!  ) as it has always worked for DD and I still use it now when she's OT (she's much easier to read) but I'm not sure it's going to work with DS as he seems bullet proof 

He had a coughing fit just before 6am this morning (DD woke me as she'd had a bad dream so I was already up) and obviously he didn't go back to sleep  He's currently chuntering away in his cot - I will aim for 12pm nap and see how he goes.

Thanks for the hugs and support ladies 

Char - will send you some hugs too cos I know you're also struggling  Good job our boys are so darn cute (love that smile in your avatar) or they wouldn't get away with it 

[*Becky*]

DD does not tack either...I think it is worth trying an EBT on the days when you can but if it does not work then don't pursue it.

Teeth can be a nightmare for some kids. DS never really slept 'that' well until his teeth were through so def could be a factor. xx

[mumofalice]

Thanks for your words of wisdom Becky - I will try EBT when I can.

Teeth can be a nightmare for some kids. DS never really slept 'that' well until his teeth were through so def could be a factor. xx

I have 'blamed' DS's rubbish sleep on so many things - teeth is definitely one of them  - so I'm still holding on to the hope that when he has his full set his sleep will improve . . . or I will have to find something else to blame 

[anna*]

I felt the same about Stan being 'BW-proof' felt really resentful and cheated. In the end though I don't know what I could have done differently. I wasn't going to leave him to CIO because it's not in me. Some kids are just not good sleepers, and nothing we can do will change them. I've already mentioned on this thread how the Groclock was totally life-changing for us… I know it's not for everyone, but I hope it will be for you.

[mumofalice]

How funny Anna - I would never have thought you felt like that about Stan being BW-proof. Thing is, like you, I couldn't and wouldn't do anything differently - I could not let him CIO, it's not in me either . . . and even if it were I'm not sure I could. I don't know what it is about DS's cry but it really gets to me - almost makes me feel physically sick  DD's cry never got to me in the same way.

The only thing I wish I'd done differently (or been able to do differently) is teach DS how to resettle himself - I just didn't have the time or energy to spend on extending naps, etc. I think I probably spent more time doing this with DD - but then I didn't have an older LO then either.

I will definitely be getting a Groclock (will try anything to LOL  ) - but I *think* DS is still a bit young to understand it  I am debating whether to put in on DS's Christmas list or whether to wait til his birthday . . .

The good news is that DS took a mammoth 3 hr nap today  Not sure exactly why - WU was 6am (despite another late night  ) and he was down for nap by 12.15pm and despite a bit of resistance he was asleep fairly quickly - cried out around 2 hrs (thought he was waking up and I would've been happy with a 2hr nap cos that's a good nap for him) but resettled and woke an hour later 

The bad news is that we seem to be getting a bit of nap and BT resistance  DS starts shouting 'no' when stories are finished and sits up when I lay him in his cot - I repeat our sleepy phrase and walk out. Sometimes he will start crying - so, I go back in, lay him down, give him his muslin and repeat the phrase. I usually only need to go back once or twice but not sure what it's all about - unless of course it's just the fact DS doesn't like to sleep cos he might miss something 

[mumofalice]

Can someone please tell me why DS always has a short nap on Tuesday - the one and only day that I don't have to pick up DD from school as she goes to the CM? There are times I have to wake him from a nap to do the school run and I hate doing it - but today, same as every other Tues he's woken after 1hr 20 mins  DD isn't well - had to pick her up from school on my way home from work/picking up DS from my parents - but she went to sleep at the same time and is still sleeping. It still meant that I didn't have to go anywhere though and was really hoping to crack on and do some jobs . . .

Some kids are just not good sleepers, and nothing we can do will change them.

Maybe I should just accept it and move on 

[*Becky*]

The bad news is that we seem to be getting a bit of nap and BT resistance   DS starts shouting 'no' when stories are finished and sits up when I lay him in his cot - I repeat our sleepy phrase and walk out. Sometimes he will start crying - so, I go back in, lay him down, give him his muslin and repeat the phrase. I usually only need to go back once or twice but not sure what it's all about - unless of course it's just the fact DS doesn't like to sleep cos he might miss something 

is he spirited by any chance?
Is he doing that for both naps and BT? If so I would lean towards it being developmental or some type of SA yk? If just for one then probably more routine related...

Sorry about the nap today, honestly so many things sound like what happens here! xx

[mumofalice]

is he spirited by any chance?

I honestly don't know  When we did the 'know your baby quiz' he came out as a complete mix of all types - and that was with both DH and I doing the quiz and our answers weren't exactly the same! However, I do suspect he is now more spirited than he was - really should do the 'know your toddler quiz' I guess - might help me understand my confusing little man a bit more!

Is he doing that for both naps and BT? If so I would lean towards it being developmental or some type of SA yk? If just for one then probably more routine related...

Yes it is for both naps and BT - but it's not every time iykwim. It's just like he doesn't seem to wind down, yk? He asks for more and more stories when you read to him - I LOVE stories and reading but it's like there's no limit for him.

Sorry about the nap today, honestly so many things sound like what happens here! xx

Thanks hun  In some ways it's good to know that it's not just happening at our house . . . I just feel like I've failed him a bit yk? Typically today I had to wake him to do the school run - he did wake after 1h 20m (ish) and called out to me a couple of times but then went quiet - so he obviously SS - just can't ever seem to do that on the one day he could sleep as long as he wanted 

[mumofalice]

*throws towel in* (insert sound here) 

I'm done - another 1h 20m nap today after a >11hr night. Just over 12hrs sleep in 24hrs doesn't seem enough for a 20 month old to me - but hey what do I know?

I guess I just accept that DS is a rubbish sleeper and move on.

It's my issue - I don't feel like I am getting any Y time and it's getting me down. After work I picked DS up, put him down for a nap, unpacked my car, made a sandwich which I pretty much ate standing up whilst I prepped dinner (to put in the oven so it's ready when we get back from DD's swimming lesson) and before I'd even finished that DS was awake - I left him chatting in the hope he'd resettle but it didn't happen (who was I kidding thinking he would?) and I've still got to wash the breakfast pots, unload and reload the dishwasher before we collect DD from school and get in the car to go swimming.

[*Becky*]

many many hugs. We have 5am starts again so that's fun too

When M was that age she was also doing short naps and we ended up putting her to bed at 6.15pm for quite a while. Now although she is not a tacker we did get through to about 5.45/6am and she was more rested etc than if she had done a 7pm BT so that might be worth a shot. If you think he will be up even earlier though then tbh as hard as it is stick with the set times.....he might come good you never know?
I have not scrolled back but did you say you thought he was teething? Have you tried the odd meds before a nap? I have hardly done this with mine BUT there have been 3-4 times with M when I have tried it if I suspected teeth. I always found 1.10 naps here were teeth so 1.20 could be I guess?
Is he happy when he wakes from a nap? Generally is his mood good?

[mumofalice]

Hey ladies

We're still stuck with the EWs but am still plodding along hoping that at some point my DS will realise that sleep is a good thing and should be loved and cherished - just as much his big sister does! 

I have to share though that DS took a mammoth nap yesterday (I think about 2h 45m  ) and even better slept til about 6.30am this morning too  I was still awake at 5.30am and as the time passed without a murmur from his room I began to worry that there was something wrong - I was struggling to decide whether to go in and check or not - I knew if I did go in I'd wake him up but was feeling guilty if I didn't go in Sometimes you just can't win 

I had decided to order the gro-clock as part of DS's Christmas gift (what a lovely gift for him  ) in the hope it might just improve things - however, after reading a couple of reviews I was a bit worried about the 'brightness' of the clock and whether it would disturb him anyway  His room is (and always has been) blacked out - it's very dark in there and that's what he's been used to. Not sure if you had/have a gro-clock Becky? If so, what do you think? Anna, if you're still reading along, I know you had one and it helped - did you find the 'light' made a difference in the room?

We have 5am starts again so that's fun too

Hope your early starts have improved since I was last on 

[anna*]

How old is he now Berni?

It was never an issue with Stan because by that time he was sleeping with the door cracked anyway. I believe - although I've never tried it - that you can set it so that at 'night' the light is totally off and only lights up when it is 'morning'.

When we got the Groclock first it was like going through sleep training again. A few rough mornings, then he got the hang of what was required.

[*Becky*]

both kids have a gro-clock and both have pitch black rooms. We just turned the light on the clock off (you can) so it is dark and then the sun comes up at 6.50am for M and 7.15pm for H.....we went through one weird patch with M where she was EWing but we are back to her waking somewhere between 6.15-7am, usual is around 6.30am and she waits for the sun but this am we had a 7.15am lie-in! xx

FWIW H could not sleep with a blue light on, it would really disrupt him so I was v pleased that you can turn the light on the clock off.

[mumofalice]

Thanks for the replies ladies - if you can turn the light off then I think it's definitely worth a try then. Didn't seem like that was the case when I read the reviews online  I love that I can get better advice from my lovely BW friends 

How old is he now Berni?

He is the ripe old age of 21 months!

It was never an issue with Stan because by that time he was sleeping with the door cracked anyway.

Funny you should mention this as I always wondered when that would happen - but DD still can't sleep with her door open - it has to be firm shut!

When we got the Groclock first it was like going through sleep training again.

I feel like I'm permanently ST the little man LOL!

but this am we had a 7.15am lie-in! xx

How lovely 

[*Becky*]

def give it a go..DS was 22 months when we started, DD 26 months.

[mumofalice]

It is ordered and should arrive courtesy of Santa next week 

He sure is a little man of mystery . . . here's a couple of examples:

Last Friday DH had some lieu time he needed to take so we went Christmas shopping. DS had woken around 5.30am give or take (his usual) and I knew that it was going to be a bit of a nightmare day nap wise, etc as we were out and about - however, he was in the buggy so I thought he would probably nod off (bit of APOP napping!) - who was I kidding?  He managed to stay awake all through the shopping, then we had lunch (around his usual time) I changed him and put him back in the buggy around his usual nap time - he still didn't fall asleep and even stayed awake through the train ride home! He finally crashed as we started to walk back from the station - by which time it was 1.30pm  He slept for 45 mins - wasn't expecting much more and couldn't transfer him to the cot either to see if he'd go back off as we were going to DD's achievement assembly.

Today he woke around the same time (5.30-ish) and after dropping DD off at school I left him in the buggy and walked down to our local 'town' (same walk we did to the station the other day) and when I stopped off at shop I realised he was fast asleep in the buggy - and that was at 9.15am  Seriously that is just as shocking as a mammoth A time. He slept for about 30 minutes. I put him back down just after 1pm in the hope he'd have at least a short nap around his usual time but 20 mins later and he's still chuntering!

[*Becky*]

he sounds v similar to M tbh....I think they are the types that can easily go past tired and get a bit 'wired' yk? M always faffs about after her one morning at nursery each week and I know she is exhausted but she just seems hyper. I do know for M that sleep begets sleep...that day you said he did a really good nap and then a good night - he probably does need that but how you get it regularly is the tricky bit. The gro-clcok has helped us a lot in that M knows we won't be getting her up when she first wakes now and so will hang out and often dozes. Before the clock we were always in the 5am hour

[Joy-filled]

I really hope the gro-clock improves things for you and your DS! 

I've continued to follow your thread as out of all the other LOs, it seems you and Becky have the most similar LOs to my DS.  I've found Becky's insights into your DS so helpful and I think both your DS and mine really truly are OT and do need the sleep - it's just tricky to figure out how help them get that sleep regularly.   Sleep begets sleep for my LO too but I can't seem to figure out how to help him consistently get it.  However, I am very happy that he has finally learned to SS (more often than not) when he wakes up crying mid-nap.   Perhaps with the gro-clock your DS will learn to do that for his nap too?  But, on the other hand, as Anna said in a previous post

Some kids are just not good sleepers, and nothing we can do will change them

Are you doing set naps/BT?  If so, what times are you doing these days?

[mumofalice]

Hi all *waving*

Haven't been on the boards much (did a bit of lurking to get a fix  ) over the festive period - so thought I'd just pop on with an update.

I would love to be shouting from the rooftops that things have massively improved but with all the madness of the festive season things didn't really improve at all - TBH I didn't really expect much as our 'routine' (I use the term routine very loosely LOL!) tends to get a bit off track when DD is on hols and there's no school runs, etc.

The good news is that naps tend to be a bit longer than they used to - and are more regularly around the 2h mark, not always but even sometimes is an improvement (celebrating even the smallest of victories over here  ) The bad news is that the EW are still with us - we did have a few post 6am WUs in the week before Christmas and I did wonder if we were finally on the right track - however, as I said earlier, the festive madness seemed to put all that to pot and we returned to our pre-6am WUs.

Santa did bring the Gro-clock (lucky DS  ) but I have to admit that I haven't actually moved it into DS's room until last night  DH did plug it in downstairs and he showed DS the sun a few times so he had an idea what was going on (kept saying 'light' when he walked past it). I did keep meaning to move it but then I'd sit down to read a BT story (after bath, etc) and realise it was still downstairs, and so another night would pass  Yes, I am that rubbish 

Anyway, this morning was day one of Operation Gro-clock and true to form DS woke before 6am (I read the sleepy farm book that came with the clock at BT last night and explained that we had to wait for the sun before we could wake up). When he started calling for me I went it and told him that the sun was still sleeping and it was still BT, I laid him down with his muslins and his monkey (his new 'lovey' since he received it on the Santa Train just before Christmas - and I said Monkey was still sleeping too). He did cry on and off and I returned to him a few times (didn't actually count but would say in total it was 4 or 5 times) and said the same thing over and over - although he didn't go back to sleep he was still laying down the whole time - which in itself is unusual and felt like a positive step as he normally just sits right back up if I lay him down. I did wonder as I returned to him if I should've set the WU time earlier that I actually wanted (and moved it gradually as he got accustomed to the idea) so that it wasn't such a long time to wait, iykwim? But we survived til 7am and he was very excited about the 'light' in his room - might have also had something to do with the song and dance his Mummy performed when she went in 

Okay, there's a couple of things I wanted to comment on but I need to go and get on with the BT routine - hopefully BBL.

[anna*]

Sounds like you both did great! If he usually wakes at (say) 5.40am, I would set the clock for 6am and then AS SOON AS he manages to stay quiet/or go back to sleep until 6, move the clock on in 10 mins increments every couple of days. On the other hand, seeing as this morning really went quite well, you could equally just leave it as it is. Stan was a little bit older (24 months) but we told him, if you see the moon mummy is sleeping. Then left him to it, didn't go to him, just called out from my room "Mummy is sleeping!" every so often.

[*Becky*]

How's it going?

[mumofalice]

Back again *waving*

Just thought I'd update on where we're at now - I was sure that I had been back with an update since Operation Gro Clock began but I either imagined it or I lost the post 

All in all things are still not great - the Gro Clock didn't solve all our sleep problems but I guess I didn't really expect it too 

DS still wakes on average around 5.30/5.40am - but we also had a 5.02am and a 5.08am waking last week  I kept the WU time set at 7am. He will chat to himself for a while (usually playing out little scenarios, singing songs, etc) and then will usually say 'Mummy out please' (to which I will reply 'The sun is still sleeping, Mummy is still sleeping') or his new phrase 'Mummy light on please' - his way of telling me that he wants the sun on  He does seem to get how it works, ie we say goodbye to the sun and nap and BT and if I ask him what do we have to wait for when we wake up he will say 's(h)iney' (his word for sunshine), if I ask him what to do if the stars are there he says 'bed' - he just doesn't practice what he preaches so to speak!

I still have no idea how to tell when he's tired  He will literally keep on going til he drops. His one saving grace used to be that when I put him down for BT he would go to sleep within mins - I reckon he takes about 30mins on average (chatting away to himself) to go to sleep now. As soon as I put him down in his cot he starts rolling around and messing about - I just say Goodnight and leave. I don't generally have to go back to him but he's thrashing around for a while. When I put him down for nap he will chat for about 5-10mins - not sure if this is just what he needs to do to settle 

So at the moment our 'routine' (if you can call it that!) looks like this . . .
WU: 5.30-5.40am (out of cot at 7am)
Nap: 12.30/45 for up to 2hrs (Gro Clock set for 2.30pm WU)
BT: 7pm (usually asleep by half past)

I've just started pushing the nap a bit (despite the extremely long morning A time) towards 12.45 as he's recently started waking earlier from it. I say it's up to 2 hrs but more often now it's down to 1.5hrs - sometimes 1.75hrs.

We have the odd NWs but for the most part he does STTN - even if it is only for 10hrs  He usually just wants a cuddle, which I do in the cot, and he will got back off.

Despite all of the above I do have to share some good news - we've just had 2 post 6am WUs in a row  Wednesday was 6.40am and today was around 6.30am  I'm pretty sure both days he cried out at 5-something but he didn't wake and chat til much later. FX we're finally turning a corner as DS hurtles towards his 2nd bday  but just in case we're not any advice is still welcome 

[*Becky*]

He sounds so like M! We STILL have EWings every few weeks or so and then we have a good patch, then EWings, it has always been this way.

Great news about the 2 later mornings. At this age we were doing a 1pm nap for 2 hours with M.

I would stick to what you are doing but maybe set the nap at 1pm. Yes it is a long morning but we found M can handle that and tbh I would rather than than a really long time to bed! Stick with the gro-clock and happy dance when he waits. We role play whenever we can about staying asleep/quiet until the sun goes up, they do get the message after a while! I try to leave M to it and rarely go in, only when she is being v noisy/singing etc.

[mumofalice]

He sounds so like M! We STILL have EWings every few weeks or so and then we have a good patch, then EWings, it has always been this way.

I'm keeping my FX that N will start having good patches that last more than 1 or 2 days - followed by weeks of EWs 

I am pushing the nap towards 1pm - but I can't let him sleep for 2 hrs at that time. Gro-clock is set to come back on 1t 2.30pm after nap (he does sometimes sleep past it coming on) but I have to get him up at 2.45pm latest to pick A up from school. Have to admit that waking him is not a pleasant experience really - TBH I'm not sure I would be over the moon if someone woke me up, dressed me in outdoor clothes and then bundled me into a sling/backpack/buggy to do the school run all with in the space of 5 mins!

I will keep plodding along the same road - after the 2 later mornings he returned to his 5.30/40am WU for a couple of days but we have had a couple more post 6am WU and believe it or not he slept til 7.02am one morning (or at least that's when I first heard him!  )

[*Becky*]

yes 2.45pm is our cut off too but we cap M's nap to 1 hour now.

Have to admit that waking him is not a pleasant experience really - TBH I'm not sure I would be over the moon if someone woke me up, dressed me in outdoor clothes and then bundled me into a sling/backpack/buggy to do the school run all with in the space of 5 mins!

totally agree with this! Am hoping the warmer weather will make it a bit more pleasant.