7mo 9:30pm NW - OT?

[NZ_Mum]

Hi all, just wondering if I can get a second opinion or someone elses ideas as to what could be causing this NW.

Some background info:
DS2 is BF and now on solids too, since just before 6mo. Has been doing well, not constipated or seemingly reacting or sore tummy etc. 
However we frequently have distracted BF's because whenever DS1 is around he doesnt feed well or for long before he pulls off to look around and REFUSES to go back on once he pulls off. (read - this happens all day long on a daily basis! Argh)
He is a good daytime sleeper, self settles, on his back, has a lovey but no paci.
When he wakes in the morning and after naps he is happy and coos and looks around (classic angel baby! LOL
Bedtime usually goes well, and I try to get him down by 6:30pm as this seems to be his "magic time" where his nights will be much better if I can get him down by this time. (We used to do a later BT and squeeze in a CN but his nights were worse than doing 2 naps and a slightly early BT) It's tricky though because I am juggling DS1 at the same time...

BUT he wakes at 9:30pm and CRIES and nothing will console him unless I feed him! It's been this way for a very long time, I cant even remember when it started!
We've never been able to do a DF because he always (well more often than not) wakes before 10pm.

Then after that he will sleep (on a good night) till about 2:30am and want another feed (but he doesnt bawl his little heart out like at 9:30 or perhaps I'm just quicker to stuff a booby in his mouth? ) and then will sleep on till a WU time of approx 7am.

On worse nights he will wake again at 1:30am want a feed and then again at 4am (or sometimes he will not wake until morning after the 1:30am feed)

A typical routine is;
7am WU + BF (although doesnt usually take much at first offer, sometimes I offer again later on before or after solids)
8:30am Solids
9:30am Sleep
11:30am WU + BF
12:30 Solids
2pm Sleep
4pm WU + BF
5:30 Solids
6:30 BT
9:30pm SCREAM + CRY for 30mins then feed and back to sleep - sometimes awake/up for an hour or more.
2:30am BF
repeat

I'd love to kick all NW/NF but for now I'll settle for just sorting out this evening scream-a-thon.

Thoughts?

[jessmum46]

Hiya Cathy

I think NWs before midnight are typically OT or discomfort, however looking at your routine I'd say if anything, he'd be UT and I wonder if that could be the cause of some of your other NWs too   Normally to be on 2 naps your LO needs to handle 3h A time - so the day would be more like 7-7 with naps 10-11.30 and 2.30-4.  4h daytime naps is quite a lot at his age...........

What solids are you on?  We had a few screaming wake-ups at around 9pm in the first few weeks of solids, so wonder if that could be another issue?  Do you only have 3 BFs in the day?  Sorry if I've read that wrong.....but I'd have thought he'd need at least 4, possibly plus a NF at this age.

WDYT?

[becj86]

Is his last BF before bed at 4pm? If so, then he's probably waking hungry at 9:30. Adding a BT feed in would probably help.

[NZ_Mum]

Hi ladies

Oops silly mummy missed that bit!
No of course we do a final BF before bed and he is often falling asleep towards the end.  So I wonder if he does get a full feed sometimes. (We only ever do single side feeding because once he's off he just wont go back on - not even for a fresh side!)

I did do some A time extension a little while ago because we started to have EW for a few days, so I've been keeping an eye on that side of things (I thought! LOL) but perhaps you are right. He's always been a big sleeper. I didnt have to do any sleep training or anything with this guy - he just loves his sleep! Always been that way even in the womb...

Solids, well he's been loving it and so far tried banana, pear, apple, avocado, carrot, pumpkin, potato, chicken, beef, broccoli, courgette, green beans and the odd toast crust. Generally he has fruit for breakfast, protein/vege for lunch and vege for dinner. Usually 3-4x ice cubes at each sitting. I make all my own or just separate out a portion of what I'm making for us for dinner and blend it a little bit.

Tonight he was very tired at BT, fell asleep on the boob at 6:45, then woke up when I tried to burp him - couldnt - so put him down, where he woke up properly and then moaned for another half an hour(!) before going to sleep. (Those short 'naps' do that dont they )
But now he's made me a liar and hasn't woken up at 9:30pm... bah

[Erin M]

That always happens, post about something, it's guaranteed not to happen the next day! 

If he falls asleep on the boob, that could also cause your 9:30 NW -- though I know first hand how hard it is to dissuade them from doing so if they're determined to!

[NZ_Mum]

I know!
Last night he woke at 10:30pm (when we went to bed as he's still in our room) and I gave him another feed. But no crying.
Then he woke at 3am and another feed and then up for the day at 6:45am. (I think he may have been woken up by DS1 coming into our room - not sure but normally he wouldnt wake that early and our door was slightly ajar indicating someone had opened it. (Either the dog or DS1)

He doesnt habitually fall asleep on the boob, just when he's been up for over 2.5A as his last A time before bed then he will sometimes. I try to keep him awake, jiggling him slightly when i can feel him drifting off, or stroking his head, talking etc and breast compressions to get that final bit in LOL. But you know with BF you never really can tell how much they've had...
 

[NZ_Mum]

Still struggling with this...
Last night was the worst so far, he was awake all night long it seemed, waking me every hour and a half or so and quiet but awake alot in between those times... I fed him at 4am and he slept solidly till 7am.

Today we had a "normal" day (as routine above) with approx 3.5hrs of daytime sleep and a bedtime at 7pm (asleep about 7:20 I think).
 
But he STILL woke at 9:30pm and had a cry. So I just fed him. Dont know whether I should have or not considering his last BT feed was from 6:40pm...
He seemed like he was just tired perhaps, squealed a bit when he came off and seemed like he was objecting to being disturbed as I was putting him back to bed. Now asleep soundly. Does that sound like OT? More than hunger? Or is it habitual?
 
I cant believe after BWing DS1 from birth and having such a great success that I can feel so lost with DS2 who is actually an "easier" child than DS1 (who was partly spirited and a reflux baby!)

[becj86]

Is he sleeping those naps all the way through or are you having to resettle?

Have a read of this: SLEEP FACTS
I wonder if he's waking then as he transitions and he's not where he remembers being when he was falling asleep and cries because he's not sure where he is? Is his room dark? I know DS always struggled from around 5-6 months if he fell asleep somewhere and was moved, then if he stirred he couldn't self-settle but always could if he had been put into bed awake.

[NZ_Mum]

Hi Bec, thanks for the link - I havent seen that one before. Nice to see it all on one page

This is truly why he has me stumped because he has always only required very little assistance to get to sleep - even when he was quite small. He transitions fine during his naps without my help - always has. I've never had to HTTJ with him (like I did with DS1) or assist him into a new sleep cycle in any way.
Even the classic period of 45min naps was over so quickly I barely remember it!
He almost always goes down into his bed awake, requires no settling from me, all I do is wrap him, give him his lovey, sing a lullabye, lay him down and tuck him in and then leave the room. I have a video monitor so I know that he waves his arm around for a bit (still weaning the swaddle, just one arm at the mo) rubs his face on his lovey and then goes to sleep. Usually in about 10mins (as long as I've got the window right of course!) no crying - no problem! BT is the same.

I do wonder if it has something to do with sleep cycles because it seems like the 9:30pm "NW" is about the length of a typical "nap" after he goes to sleep at BT. Habitual then? I just dont know. He ALWAYS wants a feed though...

[becj86]

Could he be gassy or have a sore tum from solids? DS used to root like he was starving when he had gas/tummy pains...

I do think its quite possibly habitual. Do you think you could get him to settle without the feed? APOP, shush/pat, PUPD??

[NZ_Mum]

Yeah I'm starting to think it could be habitual too but also OT...

Last night after you mentioned the settling thing and me thinking about sleep cycles and also thinking more and more it combined OT + Habitual, I decided to try something a bit different when he woke.
So at 9pm when he woke (it's always 2.5-3hrs after he goes to sleep, and last night I had to put him down at 6pm because he only had a 30min nap in the afternoon) I went in and in the dark, sung his lullabye song and gently rocked his cot till he quieted. Didnt take long and he went back to sleep in 5mins
I'm hoping the reason is that because he is OT at BT he wakes and needs some reasurrance in the dark. I think when I pick him up (which is what I normally do to comfort him) it's actually making his OT state worse and making it harder for me to settle him - and then I end up feeding him

So last night was a start, and I will try it again tonight to see if it will work a second time. Though tonight he got OS before BT (really not sure how, maybe DS1 and his tantrums ) and it took me a while to settle him, and in the end he'd been awake for 3.5hrs which is way too long!!

[becj86]

Well that's better than 'the usual' Hopefully if you are able to keep doing that, he will learn to get through that transition on his own soon. It could absolutely be OT/OS too.

[NZ_Mum]

So last night he woke at 9pm but only cried a few times, and by the time I got upstairs he'd already settled himself.
BUT then he woke at 10pm, 1am and 4:45am which is more NF's than I'd like!!
I think that was all because of OS/OT at BT though and not so related to the 9pm habitual...
See how tonight goes!

[NZ_Mum]

Well yesterday our routine went:

7am WU + BF
8:30am Solids
10am Sleep
11:45 WU + BF (at about 12:20 but wouldnt take much)
1:15 Solids
3pm Short BF + Sleep (by the time he got to sleep - may have pushed him a tad too long)
5:15pm WU (and I had to wake him!) + BF
6pm Solids
7:15 Bedtime roiutine, BF and asleep by 7:45pm. (again he seemed a bit hyper or excited. I take this to be OS but perhaps it's also a bit developemntal because he's kind of trying to roll a bit in his bed - but not crying, sounding more happy/excited )

THEN after a big afternoon sleep and only a 2.5hr A before sleep at BT, he didnt wake AT ALL at 9 or 9:30pm like he would normally, in fact he didnt even wake when we went to bed at 10 (where normally he would) and I didnt want to disturb him because clearly he was in a deep sleep. So I left him and then he woke at 11pm for a feed. !!!!!!!
And then he slept on through till 3:45am where he cried out briefly (DH went to toilet) but resettled on his own for another hour and then woke for a feed at 4:45am.
Unfortunately though we were all rather awake at 5am and for whatever reason he wouldn't/couldn't go back to sleep. So now I've fixed the front end of his night and paid for it with an EWing!

My conclusions, see if you agree with me, is that a better afternoon nap and shorter A time before bed caused him to be more rested at BT and so we had no OT 9:30pm NW. BUT he ended up having too much daytime sleep which caused the EW!

Now we all fell back to sleep at 6:45 and slept till 8am, so I really dont know where that puts our day...

[Erin M]

Your conclusion sounds about perfect.   I would shorten the morning nap if you need less daytime sleep and hope you still get that big long nap in the afternoon.  How's today going?  It's tricky when they sleep longer in the morning.

[NZ_Mum]

Yesterday he was still shattered by usual nap time so I put him down at 10:15am.
Then he slept till 12:30 because I went out and DH didnt wake him at 12 as instructed

So he still had too much morning sleep and the rest of our day was a bit off and we had another 9:30pm OT NW, where he cried and I tried to resettle but couldnt and by 10pm I just fed him and went to bed myself! Then he woke at 1:50am for another feed and then woke for the day at 6am. That's another EW in my book!

See if I can do a bit better today...

[Erin M]

Good luck!  Those "sleeping in" days always wrecked our days completely too.  So hard to get them up tough when you know they need the sleep!

[NZ_Mum]

So hard to get myself up after a bad night more like!

So today he napped for only an hour and a half 9-10:30 (after waking at 6am) and he woke up all by himself, which is actually unusual for him
Then I kept him up till 1:30 (3Hr A) and then he napped until 4 and I tried to do a "usual" A time till bedtime at 6:30 but he just didnt seem tired, but not OS but for whatever reason he was awake in his bed for ages not falling asleep till 7:15pm which is probably a waaaay too long day for him and then of course he woke at 9:30pm to have a cry...
(I tried to settle him in his bed, the crying only escalated until I picked him up, thumped his back a few times and talked to him for a bit and then put him down and now he's trying to settle himself again (not crying anymore) Hmm so not that hungry...

I'm getting pretty tired of this. It seems like I'm always doing the wrong thing!! And not knowing what the real cause of this crying is isn't helping!!

[Erin M]

Undertired for bed after that long nap and then OT by the time he finally fell asleep, I guess.  The tweaking is hard, especially at this age when things change constantly.  It sounds like you got 2 good naps out of 3 hours A time -- would you try 3 hours to bed on a good nap if to happens again?

[NZ_Mum]

That's the thing, he ALWAYS naps well, it's just the night time I cant fix!!
Actually last night although he tried to settle he woke up again and just cried. By then it was 10pm so I just fed him and went to bed too. Then he woke up at 1:50am and up for the day at 6:30am.
So not too bad really but I still wish he'd just STTN already! A 7.5mo who's doing well on solids and napping well during the day, and generally otherwise on a good routine 'should' be able to STTN...
Tracy always said you cant fit a baby into a clock but I swear this baby has a clock inside him!! How else does he know it's 9:30pm? LOL
 
Today was good, he woke at 6:30am, I ignored him for half an hour then fed him at 7am, breakfast, back asleep by 9:30. Woke all by himself at 11:15am had a good feed and then lunch, a trip to the park and then home and into bed by 2pm. Slept till 4pm when I woke him and then BF/Dinner/BF and bed by 6:45pm but he took a half hour to wind down and was asleep by 7:15pm. (There goes that clock again! Same time as yesterday LOL)

He was a bit maybe too tired going down for his naps today, like 3hrs is just a tad too much. He's just on the verge of getting upset about it, but manages to get to sleep before he winds himself up. Maybe I should try slightly less tomorrow? You can see today he only lasted 2:45hr A after his morning nap which was only 1:45hrs... maybe I really should be shooting for a much shorter A before bed if he's getting more tired as the day wears on?

I think he will cry again tonight... I'll let you know in an hour and a half! LOL

[NZ_Mum]

Cried from 9:05pm till 9:25pm when he finally decided to go back to sleep. I didnt feed him this time, just tried to settle him in the cot, picked him up a few times to help him settle, and sometimes while he's crying he chokes back air so needs to burp it back up. Then I got him settled in bed and rocked the cot for a bit till he starts to rub his head. Then I left and let him do the rest...

*sigh*

[Erin M]

That does sound better, though I'm sure it doesn't feel better to you!  It takes a few days to fully get used to new A times, but if you think it's too much, you can cut it a bit.  NFs are ok at this age, some babies still need them (though I know th feeling of hurry up and sleep already)!

[NZ_Mum]

Yeah you're right it doesnt feel much better to me! LOL

Last night was terrible, he woke again at 10:20pm when I went to bed so I fed him, then he cried again at 12:40am but only for a little bit and went back to sleep by himself (I didnt get out of bed just said the usual sleepy-time words) and then he woke at 2am and had a feed, I got woken at 4am by someone letting off fireworks outside our window (which of course ironically DS2 didnt even stir for!) and then he was awake for the day at 6am. Ugh feeling like trash today...

This morning he's ended up having a 3:15hr A time because that's just how long it took to get everyone up, dressed, fed and back to bed. He was pretty grumpy all morning, just moaning and whinging in his bed until I got him up, refused BF after about 3 sucks but did have some porridge and pears before bed. So I'm thinking maybe teething was not helping today/last night. That said, I think I will try a little less A times for the rest of the day and an early BT.
Last time he started EWing, I limited his daytime sleep and brought BT forward and then he started sleeping in again. That was when I thought that I'd discovered that 6:30pm was his 'magic' bedtime. Since I stopped doing that he's gradually gone back to OT & EW - as opposed to just OT

Deep breath - and - patience!

[NZ_Mum]

Well we had a good day, he slept well and did a second A time of 2:50mins and then he slept a solid 2hrs. (1:30-3:30pm)
Although DH said he was fussing in his bed crying a bit (of course he didnt actually go up to get him! ) he was ok when I got home and went to get him, and had a nice feed at 4pm.
Unfortunately, then he ended up having a 4hr A time till bed because while I got him upstairs, changed and ready as he was feeding at 6:15-6:30 (which would have been perfect 3hr A) we was all sleepy and I was trying to keep him awake and got him into bed where he woke up completely, started wriggling, couldnt get to sleep and was just restless but not crying. Then he did a poo (I heard it down the baby monitor LOL) and so I had to change him & resettle etc and try again, but no, still more wriggling. So I finally gave him some ibuprophen and he was asleep in 10mins
Boy I wish I'd done that before the feed but DH doesnt like me giving it and so I try not to. But there's a point when baby just needs some rest - and me!

Expecting another 9:30pm cry after that!
Oh when does it end...

[Erin M]

Eventually!  Hope your night is ok.

[NZ_Mum]

Well our night actually went ok!
I think the ibuprophen helped him sleep through the 9:30pm NW, so he hardly stirred last night at the usual time. But still woke at 2am for a feed and then up for the day at 7:30am which is MUCH better! (Especially on a saturday morning )
He's been teething pretty bad today and didnt get an afternoon nap until he'd cried for an hour and a half (!) and then I finally was able to APOP a nap at 4:30pm with F2S
So more ibuprophen tonight and he eventually settled and has slept well this evening - through the 9:30 mark too!
I'm hoping although the teething sucks that the use of ibuprophen may at the least break the habitual waking pattern if it was one.

There's always an up side right? LOL
Just going to bed now (10:25pm) and will feed him if he wakes...

[becj86]

Fingers crossed for you. Teething can really throw a wrench in the sleep patterns

[Erin M]

Crossing my fingers too!