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ACTIVITY => Activity Time & Toddler Activity => Topic started by: daveandstine on September 21, 2005, 03:01:23 am
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My lo is 8 months and has recently become very difficult to keep happy during activity times. He has not been content to play on his own and wants me there to entertain him constantly. He was never like that before and I'm not sure what to do. I love to play with him and cuddle and read together and go on walks, but I want him to be able to play on the floor or in his playpen while I do dishes or fold laundry. I guess I'm not sure if this is a power struggle or if he just really needs me right now for some reason. I've tried putting him where he can see me and also where he can't and it doesn't seem to make a difference - he just cries. If I let him cry a bit he sometimes will play intermittantly, but I haven't been able to get more than 5 or 10 minutes out of him. He used to play happily for 10 -30 minutes without me intervening. Does anyone have any advice? Should I let him cry a bit (he can get pretty worked up if I let him) or rescue him? How can I re-train him to enjoy independent play?
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Oh my word I am experiencing exactly the same thing with my 8.5 month old. If I was going to write a post I would have written what you have put word for word!!!
I have been relating it to separation anxiety which normally occurs between 7 and 9 months. What I am worried about is ensuring that if this is just a phase she is going through I don't intervene too much and cause her to lose her ability to play independently altogether.
Over the last couple of days I have tried not intervening if my dd gets fussy and then either reassured her or in the nicest possible way ignored her. If I do this she will normally settle back and play on her own for a while. My DH actually suggested this as he was of the opinion that if I intervened everytime she would just learn that whining got attention.
Sounds a bit harsh in some ways but I think he has a point. She knows I am there so she is never on her own but I have to say I do find it difficult not to intervene if she is whining. If she gets upset or starts crying however then I am straight in there.
Therefore I would also be grateful to anyone who has any suggestions
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I had a bit of luck today with putting him in the porta-crib outside. He cried for several minutes, but then began watching airplanes and playing with toys. He did whine some, but when he didn't see me, he'd just go back to playing. I'm not sure what I'll do when the weather gets colder or rainy, but for now this helped. I'm still looking for help with knowing whether to let him cry for a bit or whether he may need the reassurance of my presence. Anyone?
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I have been putting my 9 month old daughter (spirited one day, textbook the next) in the playpen, playing with her for a couple of minutes and leaving. She whinges after about 5 minutes and I ignore it. She eventually stops and I get about 5 more minutes of peace and then she goes mad. Sometimes I sing to her which helps.
I usually manage to get her to stay for about 15 minutes total in the playpen. I also have a baby walker which she plays in for about 10 minutes every day and I put her in her jolly jumper for about 15 minutes a day. She could stay in her walker forever but I don't really like the idea. I also let her crawl around while I do stuff which she will hapily do for ages. She follows me everywhere!
My SIL assures me that as they get older, they can amuse themselves for longer. I wait patiently!
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I have the same problem with my 10 mos old. He seems to be fine if we are out or spending time at someone else's house, where he is entertained with new toys, new people, etc. But at home, he sometimes cries the second I put him on the carpet to play.
If it has only been a couple minutes and he is whiny or fussy, I just stay near him and reassure him that he is okay, but I go on with folding clothes or doing dishes. Every couple minutes, I just smile at him and say "you're all right, mommy is just working now."
It is really tough with a whiny kiddo! If you have other ideas, I would love to tag on to this thread... :)
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Hi everyone,
Can I just shed abit of info here. You are absolutely right.. it often is sep anxiety BUT it is also about the developmentla phase of building the attachment. In their first year of life they are learning about security and building a significant attachment to a main caregiver (which does not mean the only 'caregiver') and it is REALLY important to respond to their needs.
It is a TOTAL fallacy to think that if you respond to their crying then they will learn to whine or cry to get attention. Their whining or crying has a VERY specific purpose.. which is to communicate their need to you the ONLY way they know how... which is crying etc. To 'ignore' this communcation you are actually potentially setting up the dynamic where they will be more needy of your attention as they get older. Evidence and research suggests that the MORE you respond to their needs the less 'clingy' and 'insecure' they will be.
Further to this, through communicating their need, they are learning that they are actually worthwhile and this helps build their self-esteem. When you respond to this communication, they are getting valuable feedback and they will use this as a 'base' to a) 'explore the world' as they get older because they have been provided with a secure base and b) they are valued people who will feel valued when they are older.
PLEASE don't put them into a play pen and expect to 're-train' them... as you are defeating the purpose of the important developmental phase. For those who doubt this, there is alot of evidence/research which explains this and by thinking that they wil learn to get your attention through crying is essentially putting the label on them that they are 'manipulating' the situation... which I assure you... they have NO manipulating potential AT ALL at this age. To suggest that they can manipulate or learn to get your attention at this age is an adult perception. They can only learn more about how their environment reacts when they themselves have self awareness and this developmental phase does NOT happen until they are MUCH OLDER.
What I suggest you do is respond when they are needing you.. i.e. crying or whining.. and let them play independently when they are happy to. Yes you do have other things to do, but this phase does not last long and it's too important to ignore and to risky to put a good secure attachment at risk, and by responding they will grow up more independent if you respond to them more NOW!
Cheers
Ted
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Thanks Teddy! Just to add, when my ds was 8mths I found it a really trying time because of the same things you're all experiencing. I discovered it was was a lot easier to get down on the ground with my ds and play with him on the floor than putting us both through the stress of this phase by removing myself - I did try to do most of our interaction on the ground with him (rather than carrying him around) if he was happy with that (and generally he was), when I felt he was ready I'd start to do a few things for a minute or two and took the lead from him. For us it lasted about a month, but peaked for about one week. I basically put the "house" on hold to spend the time with Nathan to get us through the worst of it . He is very independent little player now - but the clinging does still come and go as they learn and develop.
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Nikki and Teddy, you guys have really good points. I think there is a thin line between not responding appropriately, and building their independence. This is what Tracy says about independent play:
For 6 to 9 mos:
"This is the age when children first see a connection between their own behavior and a subsequent chain of events and when bad patterns are easily reinforced. When parents tell me that their child of six to nine months cries to be picked up after five or ten minutes of activity, I say, "Well, don't pick her up." Otherwise, you're teaching her that when I make this noise, Mum picks me up. It's not that your child is thinking, Oh, I know how to wrap Mum around my little pinky. She's not consciously manipulating you... at least not yet. Instead of rushing to pick her up, sit next to her and reassure her, "Hey, hey, hey, it's okay. I'm right here. You can play on your own." Distract her with a squeaky toy or a jack-in-the-box."
She goes on to say that you should make sure the crying/whining is not from something else, like overstimulation, and if it is, address that immediately.
I guess I feel that by allowing him to whine if I am nearby encouraging him, I am teaching him to play indepenently while still being there for support and praise. Just as I teach him to sleep on his own but still am there for support, I do the same for playtime. Much of the day, I am by his side interacting with him, but at times, (for example, while I fold clothes), it is important that he be able to calmly play on his own, with smiles and praise from mom. And it is my goal to teach him how to do that.
I totally respect everyone's opinion on this though. I think you need to do what seems right for each kiddo.
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Hi Sheila,
When you said
For 6 to 9 mos:
"This is the age when children first see a connection between their own behavior and a subsequent chain of events and when bad patterns are easily reinforced.
This is just not the case and give you very clear examples as to why it is not! Sorry... but on this one MANY experts would not agree. They simply DO NOT see the connection between their "own behavior and a subsequent chain of events" because they are not even AWARE of their own behaviour at this age. Yes... you can respond in different ways and if sitting next to them helps them be calmer then do it... but if they are still unhappy, then you need to respond to them differently, but the important thing is to LISTEN to what they NEED rather than what a book tells you to do because this is an important part on their development.
Cheers
Ted
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Sheila, did you get that quote form tracey's book, which one?
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Yup, that is written in BWSAYP, page 86.
I can definitely see both points of view. I think it is really important to use your knowledge of your individual child to decide what is appropriate.
:)
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Teddy,
I TOTALLY agree with you that most studies show that not responding to a baby's needs can cause serious separation, social, and emotional damage. I absolutely believe that if a baby cries, a parent must respond.
However, I disagree with you about the studies of infants awareness of their actions. Most studies show that infant develop understanding of causal effect between 4 and 7 mos. By this age, they understand that their crying leads to a specific outcome, being picked up, fed, changed, etc. And of course, we want this! The baby has to have a way to communicate needs.
As far as independent play, I am definitely not saying that a parent should allow a baby to cry in a playpen. What I am saying is that it is perfectly fine to coach a baby through independent play. If he or she is whiny, and you have eliminated other possible causes of crying, I think it is fine to sit by the baby, show them how to play, and use your voice and calm demeanor to assure him/her. I think it is similar to how we coach a baby to sleep on his own with BW techniques.
But like I said, I think that every baby is different. The temperment of some babies would require a different approach by the parent.
I hope I am not coming on too strong! Just enjoying a healthy debate... :D :D :D
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Yes I agree with you Sheila, and if that is how you want o bring your child up the great.
Can we please remember that we come on this site because we believe in what Tracy says and want to practise what she preaches so to speak. Sometimes we may not agree with what others are doing but that doesn't make them wrong. I hope I'm not being out of line here and jumping in where I'm not wanted but this is a BW site and if someone is following Tracey's advice then that should be good, not a bad thing. :?
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Sheila, in the interests of a healthy debate :lol: :wink: and yes this is the BW website but just for clarification. It is believed by many experts that you simply cannot spoil a baby particularly in the first 12 months. When you say that a baby learns causal effect between 4 and 7 months this is just not the case, because what you are essentially saying is that the baby has learnt through cognitive reasoning that if they cry they will get picked up or whatever. Yes... the baby instinctively knows to cry (because of physiological and emotional requirements) to get his/her needs met but they have not associated or connected or even have the ability to think "I will cry and therefore I will get what I want which is to be picked up and to get the attention". They do NOT have cognitive reasoning at this age and 'self awareness' does not happen UNTIL they have reached the developmental phase of 'self awareness' which does not happen until they are MUCH OLDER.
To think you can 'train' a baby to play independently is incorrect for many reasons, one of which is they are simply NOT manipulating you and are simply expressing their need. My concern about 'training' them into independent play rather than following their natural lead and responding to their cues is how they are learning to perceive their own 'communication' cues.
They will begin to play independently later and they will do it more willingly if you respond to them now. Whereas if you don't respond to them now, you will probably have a more 'clingy' baby/toddler later. For example when a child has gone up to their caregiver/mum etc and wanted a hug and the mum has said don't be silly go and play. The mum genuinely thinks they are encouraging independent play here but what is happening is the baby/child is believing that they don't have a secure base to explore from because their 'security' may or may not be there if they 'need' it (because the mum has placed their own adult interpretation on their child's particular need at that time and responded as above and not followed the child's need and responded accordingly). Whereas if the mum picks them up and gives them a hug, they will WANT to go off and explore things KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING that they have security should they need it (which tends to be less because they inherently know that it is there and therefore not require it).
I am very happy to continue this dicussion in private if you want to PM me because as it has been suggested this is a BW website :) .
Cheers
Ted
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Please don't think that I've muscled in and ruined a thread, sorry about my interuption!
Teddy, now you've explained a little more i do actually agree with what you are saying. i was taking issue more with the way it sounded like you were discounting what Tracey had said in her book. i didn't mean to offend or upset anyone :(
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Kimberly, no need to apologise. No offence taken :) . Happy for you to point out that this is the BW website!
Cheers
Ted
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Hi Kimberley - You haven't ruined a thread at all!!! The more the merrier. :wink:
Hi Ted - I think that we may have a misunderstanding. I agree with you on almost EVERYTHING.
* I completely agree that a baby cannot be spoiled.
* I agree that self-awareness does not happen until later (usually 2 yrs old according to a lot of studies)
* I agree with you that a baby doesn't know how to manipulate
* I agree that it is crucial to follow a baby's cues (which is why I LOVE Tracy's BW ideas :) )
* I agree that if you don't respond to a baby's cues in infancy, he/she will develop serious attachment, social, and emotional issues
* I agree that if a child goes up to mum and wants a hug, the mum should ABSOLUTELY give baby a hug! My kiddo is bombarded with hugs all day! (I can't imagine a mum saying don't be silly go and play! That is not at ALL what I meant by encouraging independent play)
* I agree that if they have a secure base, they are more likely to play independently
So I guess I am saying that for most everything, we completely agree!!! :D The only thing I differ with you on is that the literature I have read says that by about 5-7 mos, most babies know that their actions have a reaction. They are NOT manipulative, but they are aware that if they do ___, it will be followed by ___. For example, my son KNOWS that if he touches the fireplace doors (mom is scared to death that his fingers will get pinched), I will say "Naaaathaaan?", and he laughs and thinks it's hilarious. Now his favorite thing is to approach the fireplace, turn around smiling, and wait for me to say "Naaaathaaaan?" He has learned that touching the fireplace gets a response from me.
I absolutely think that mom should always respond to baby, which is why I love BW and do not believe in cry it out or CC. But just as I tought Nathan to sleep on his own, I believe it is possible to teach him to play independently for short periods of time. This doesn't mean I let him cry, or ignore him, or expect him to play on his own for a long period of time. It means that I am sitting with him in the same room, talking to him, giving him smiles and praise when he looks at me for assurance, and distracting him with calming words or a toy if he is whiney.
I think that we really are agreeing on more than you think!
Gosh, I have never gotten into a thread like this! I guess this is what happens to a stir-crazy SAHM.
:shock:
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Hey all, love this sort of thread, heaps of helpful and useful info always seems to come out! :wink: (Kimberley, it is always good to have the reminder of the BW site). :)
Sheila, the following hit a note for me, unfortunately I do know of a child who's mum treats him like this and is really really sad to see. From being a little baby when we gather for playgroup he has been pushed away and told to go and play with the other kids when all he's wanting is a little reassurance and a cuddle or just to hang out next to his mum and play (not even necessarily wanting attention from her) - the other kids were often either sitting on our laps or in near proximity of their mums anyway. Now she's dealing with a 2.5yr old who can't stand her being away from him yet he is still not getting the reassurance he craves but the opposite. I'm no analyst, but to me she's now gotten the child that she was working so hard to not have... :cry: . Now this is an extreme I think, and there has never been gently sitting on the floor and working with him on it as described by Tracy and what we/you were talking about here but just felt compelled to share that it does unfortunately happen.
:(
I agree that if a child goes up to mum and wants a hug, the mum should ABSOLUTELY give baby a hug! My kiddo is bombarded with hugs all day! (I can't imagine a mum saying don't be silly go and play! That is not at ALL what I meant by encouraging independent play)
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Thanks Nikki. That is so sad. Don't you just want to save that kiddo and take him home? :( I see it too often also...
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It is so sad for that little boy Nikki! :cry:
Yes, Sheila I think we are agreeing with alot of things... BUT... with regard to the causal effect... I understand what you are saying re your ds 'learning' that if he touches something he get's a reaction from you and I also understand that you understand that he has not made this association by cognitive reasoning but more about 'learnt behaviour' HOWEVER..... the cause and effect is about RESPONSE.... and at this age they are learning and beginning to understand about their environment... they NEED feedback about their environment so they will keep practicing something to make sense of it.. and learn about the object... they do NOT cognitively think... "if I go over here, my mum responds in a certain way and that is really cool... so I am going to keep going over here"... what they are understanding is... I want to learn about my environment if I do x because I need a response to learn more.
This is ENTIRELY different to being put on the floor and given time to play independently (which is great, if they are happy doing this), but when the baby starts indicating that something needs to change... whine, cry or whatever.. then this is not a 'cause and effect' notion but a COMMUNICATION notion. It may be that they are bored with the toy they are playing with, or they may want some interaction with an adult, or they may be tired... because fundamentally babies would MUCH prefer to be around other people and learn (which is part of the attachment process) than 'trained' to play longer. They haven't instigated "oh I am going to cry now because I want to see what will happen"... they are crying because they are communicating.
It is suggested that parental sensitivity may be considered the crucial factor in the development of secure or insecure attachments. So it comes down to HOW you respond to your child which can also affect the attachment process.
So, when a child HAPPILY goes and tries something and has 'learnt' through repetitive behaviour rather than cognitive reasoning that he/she might get a response... this is different to communicating a NEED when expressing something through whining and crying. By not responding or trying to 'make' them continue playing when they are crying/whining is ignoring the need and that is different behavioural context altogether.
Cheers
Ted
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Oh, my goodness, so much good info! :wink:
Ted, I just want to stress again that we are agreeing on most things here. When you say that babies can make associations based on learned behavior, that IS cognitive development. There have been tons of studies that show that young babies, as young as just a few months old, have the cognitive ability to alter their environment in order to have a certain outcome. For example, there was one specific study I remember that showed that infants were able to learn to suck a pacifier at a very specific rate in order to watch an image on a screen at a certain focus and brightness. It is truly amazing how they are able to change their behavior to get a certain outcome.
When my kiddo throws his sippy on the floor, he knows I will pick it up. He certainly is exploring his environment. But there is also no doubt that he is aware that his action will cause a response from mom. He is not manipulative (in a negative way) or trying to push my buttons, but he is becoming aware that when I do this, mom does that.
I ABSOLUTELY believe that parental sensitivity is crucial in developing secure attachment! I parent MUST respond consistently and lovingly.
Again, I am not suggesting a parent allow a child to cry for the sake of "training." This would certainly lead to avoidant or ambivalent attachment. I am saying that there are certain situations where it is acceptable to coach a baby through play. If a baby is fussy, and the baby is NOT over-tired, hungry, over-stimulated, it is totally acceptable for mom to distract baby (meaning a baby at least 6 mos old) with a toy, a song, etc, and reassuring words, "You are just playing a bit. I am still right here." Mom is still there, mom is still responding to the baby, and mom is a secure and compassionate base. If baby continues to cry, absolutely pick him or her up!!!
I relate this again to teaching a baby to sleep. If baby is crying in his crib, I respond immediately. Most certainly, he would be much more comfortable sleeping in my arms all night. But for both his and my benefit, I coach my baby through sleep. I respond to his cries, pat his back, whisper to him that I am still there. He still undoubtedly would prefer to be held all night, but I am still a comforting and secure base.
I appreciate the dialogue, Ted! This is my area of study and is of such interest to me. :wink:
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See... even the bit you said
Most certainly, he would be much more comfortable sleeping in my arms all night. But for both his and my benefit, I coach my baby through sleep. I respond to his cries, pat his back, whisper to him that I am still there.
can be subjective as a study by Anisfed, Casper, Nozyce and Cunningham (1990) study provided mothers from deprived immigrant families with soft baby carriers to carry their babies during the first months. The idea was to promote close physical contact between parent and infant. Carrying the baby leads to prompt responses to attachment signals such as crying behaviour and would thereby stimulate feelings of security in the infant. The authors included a control group of mothers who received plastic baby seats. The outcome was dramatic; in the experimental group, 83% of the infants appeared to be securely attached at 1 year, whereas in the control group only 38% were secure. :)
I also think Meltzoff discussed the research completed by others that the theoretical account of infants' response to problems should be in terms of the perceptual-motor demands and habitual responses involved in each specific situation. He goes on to suggest that children are limited to "know how" from birth to 3 (and possibly beyond) and that there is behavioural reorganisation but not conceptual change because there are no infant concepts to work with.
Cheers
Ted
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Hmmm, I don't understand what you were getting at with mentioning the Anisfed study. Of course the babies held in the carriers are more securely attached. There are also studies that show that in most other countries, colic is practically non-existent because of the carrier effect. Unfortunately, I was not up to keeping my little one in an infant carrier all day and night for the first few months... We did use it much of the day, though, and I purposely used a co-sleeper for his early infancy.
Guess I just don't understand the relevance of the study to independent play.
:)
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DaveandStine -
I am sorry we hijacked your topic! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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:lol: I mentioned the Anisfed study because you were talking about being of 'benefit' for a baby (which can be perceived as a western civilisation philosophy) to sleep independently. It has nothing to do with independent play except that of how things are interpreted.
BTW.., what are you studying?
Cheers
Ted
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:lol: :lol: .. oh yeah.. sorry about the post!
Cheers
Ted
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:lol: I mentioned the Anisfed study because you were talking about being of 'benefit' for a baby (which can be perceived as a western civilisation philosophy)
BTW.., what are you studying?
His benefit meaning that mom gets some sleep and stays sane! :lol: :lol:
I am (or was, before kiddo) a school counselor with masters in counseling and child development.
You are doing a lot on attachment! What are you studying?
Talk to you later. :wink:
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Sheila I agree that with you on the sleep thing that your are teaching a skill that he will need later in life. Teddy I agree that lots of what we do is a western perseption on things, but really whats wrong with thatif that is where we live.
Are there any studies that show long term effects on this stuff, like at 5 and 10 years old?
I worked as a primary teacher and would get very annoyed at the chn who were sent to school with no skills as to how to play independently and make independent choices. A lot of our pupils had led a very sheltered and spoiled life for their short childhood and their parents had made all their decisions for them and they lacked a lot of skills needed for school.
At 14 mo I know my DD is a long way off going to school :shock: but I guess I want to start as I mean to go on! Is there a common ground to making your child feel secure by reassuring them as they are playing on their own, like Shelia suggests and keeping them with you like you suggest?
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Kimberley, just very quickly... I personally do not think you have to co-sleep in order to get a secure attachment... the most important thing is that you respond with sensitivity and quickly in order to not break trust and to ensure the best possible secure attachments continue etc.
With regard to independent play.... there are a couple of things I would quickly like to highlight. 1) It is the timing that is really important so I would not like 'train' or 'push' anything in that first year 2) If you provide the response sensitively and nurturingly they WILL begin to independently play as part of a developmental process. The children you have discussed at your school, I would guess, did not have boundaries (for example, it is dangerous to touch power cords, so you would use distraction and positive reinforcement to communicate that message)associated with their upbringing which can also be an attachment issue, but further to this and more importantly it can be the caregiver/mum etc who is actually too intrusive and 'controlling' and this forms attachment problems for children also, rather than the mum/caregiver following their lead, so for example, if your toddler is happy to explore the environment for a while, then let him/her, but if they display communication signals where they require a response.. then read the response accordingly and follow through. It may be that they are bored with what they are doing, so you might want to switch the activity for them, but if they still communicate dissatisfaction, then there is something else going on, and it may simply be that they need feedback from you, or they require a hug, sleep, food or whatever. The thing is to not presume that they are trying to 'control' the situation, because they do not have the capabilities to do this. But the one thing you NEED to REALLY trust is that you will NOT create a demanding toddler/child by responding sensitively in a non intrusive way, but you are more likely to create a 'demanding/clingy' toddler/child by pushing them to play independently when they are not developmentally ready (and you will know they are developmentally ready by following their lead and not putting your own timelines on them and pushing them to do it).
Hope that helps :)
Sheila.. studying attachment theory etc
Cheers
Ted
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That's really interesting teddy, thanks for elaborating. It must be really tricky for you to condense all your research into bit size chunks for us to relate to!!!
Since coming on here and reading great advice from everyone I've being trying really hard to do a very small thing. DD is very clingy at the moment, only her mummy will do, which can be very trying at times. But when she gets clingy and whiney, instead of saying to her, don't be silly, mummy only here, or what a silly girl you know mummy comes back. (all previoously said, although in caring voice, not a telling off voice) Iknow validate her fears and worries and say, I know your upset cos mummy's put you down, but I'm still here, look we can play like this instead, or I know you don't like it when I go in the other room, but why don't you come in here too?
It's a really small thing but I think sh'es old enough to understand my words and she's not silly to feel the way she is, she's worrid for a reason. It is working too.
I'm floundering a bit at the moment you see cos I had and angel/textbook baby for the first 10 mo and now i have a touchy/spirited toddler and the adjsutment is a bit hard!!! For me and for her! She used to play for up to an hour on her own amusing herself, now I'm lucky if I can get ten mins out of her.
But this is all helping heaps though, thanks!
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Sheila.. studying attachment theory etc
I love Ainsworth and attachment theory, sooo interesting. I feel like I am back at work - so nice to be able to have "grown-up" talk for a few minutes a day. :wink:
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Kimberely, I am pleased things are working for you abit more. Try not to be concerned that she was once 'independent' and is now abit more 'clingy'. This is just a part of the attachment process and her gaining security and it will change. I understand it's frustrating for you but changing your response was a great idea and it will help her build that security and trust! :)
Sheila... :lol: yes it is really interesting hey and it's nice to chat with someone who also thinks that!
Cheers
Ted
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Yes and it is working, i noticed yesterday that she was spending longer times amusing herself, which was lovely to see. I think she learns so much form those times, when she becomes a little explorer! You can see her mind ticking over, thinking, now how does this work, what do I have to do here. It's lovely to see, esp when sh'es worked it out and comes to show me!
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Wow, there's a lot to this topic... I was going to pitch in saying that my 6 month old has been this way for ever! He's just not the type that sits there, amused by his toys... he wants mommy or daddy to entertain him... and I can tell you, I've put my house on hold for too long... I've been putting him in his pen to play, but all he wants is something else.. I don't know what he wants, but I've been there all the time, even if I let him cry a bit just to see what happens. I'm pretty desperate since he does this EVERY time... I put him down to play and he goes ballistic! He's 6 months old, what do you guys suggest?
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Can you please tell me abit more about his sleep habit's? How he has gone to sleep? What happens when he wakes at night? Does he go to day care or anything else? Anything that you can tell me based on his day to day activities and how he behaves.
Cheers
Ted
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Wow! How did I miss this one for sooo long!
What an interesting "debate" for lack of a better term.
My almost 8 month old is going through this as well.
Ted, a personal question-Do you have any kids?
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Yes.... why do you ask?
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Oh, it all just sounded so "academic". I didn't mean to offend.
I have run across some who dish out tons of advice (on these boards even) and don't have any kids. Not that I think people without kids don't have good advice (I used to be one of those people), it was just that I didn't see anything in your posts about "personal experience".
Have you found that following the attachment parenting principles have helped your kids to become independent (appropriate for their age) as they have gotten older?
Sorry if you have already gone over this, I didn't have time to read everything you wrote on attachment parenting.
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I just wanted to add something from my personal experience... Firstly Teddy has helped me ALOT.
when my ds#1 (now 26mo) was 5mo, my ds was treated for pancreatic cancer, he had major abdominal surgery & a almost 3week hosp stay then was bed ridden for another 3 weeks (off work for 4months) I had to go back to work when Aiden was 6.5mo & when I was at home I had to care for dh & Aiden. I spent much of that time also suffering from PPD. I had little family support so Aiden had to go into childcare. Now when Aiden needed me most I could not give him the time he needed & all the advice/help I was given with his sleep problems (many) was based around CC (I didn't know BW then), so he was "doubley abandoned my me.
Aiden can in recent months play independently BUT it took a lot of effort & one on one time & also he has a much stronger bond to his father, who as he got better was able to sit beside him & interact in the 2nd half of his 1st year.
We still have lots of issues & he takes a long time to trust people & so is almost impossible for me to even go to the toilet if we are at other peoples places. So take it from me... if you can give the time DO, you never get those times back & it is much much harder to fix it later !
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Firstly Teddy has helped me ALOT.
Awww thanks Kate! I am also pleased to hear that your lo is out of hosp etc :D .
Have you found that following the attachment parenting principles have helped your kids to become independent (appropriate for their age) as they have gotten older?
MattandCindy - in answer to your question above. No offense taken. I tend not to give personal examples because I am a really private person :).
In all honesty... you would need to describe what you would define as 'attachment parenting' principles. To gain a secure attachment I personally do not believe you need to follow co-sleeping, carrying your baby in a front pack for alot of the time, or BFing until they are toddlers. I DO believe however (and research also identifies this) that responding sensitively to your babies needs as being of major importance to gain a good attachment. Depending on the type of attachment they have depends on how they interact with others later in life and their confidence in other people and themselves.
I certainly would not provide any research or practical advice if I didn't know it worked! :) So.... yes. You may need to be more specific.
I will give you an example that I have used on thos board. I have been working with a mum of 2 1/2 year old twins. She used CC, CIO etc and found that one of her twins would not sleep. She even smacked her :cry: . After observing and chatting with her I needed to devise a plan to create a secure attachment. If other people watched this interaction of how one of the twins was behaving, then they probably would have described her as being 'naughty' but in actuality she was behaving anxiously. After getting her mum to ly down beside her when she went to sleep at night (at the beginning) and go directly to her when she woke (she was waking 8 times a night and not being responded to and had been doing so for months), she then only woke about 3 times that night. After a week of going to sleep with her at the beginning of the night (in the 2 1/2 year old's bed), she was sleeping through the night and was going to bed happily. We then progressively began to move her out of the room. What happened initially, when her mother began to ly down with her was that her dd BECAME clingy during the day (different from what was happening before... as prior to this she was very independent). This new development was normal as this was part of the attachment which she didn't have as part of her development. Her mother was a little bit anxious about this at the beginning and wondered if she was going to continue having a clingy toddler, but once explained, she relaxed into it and provided the 'need' for her dd. Her daughter is now MUCh happier, happily independent rather than anxiously independent and enjoy's going to bed.
Cheers
Ted
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Can you please tell me abit more about his sleep habit's? How he has gone to sleep? What happens when he wakes at night? Does he go to day care or anything else? Anything that you can tell me based on his day to day activities and how he behaves.
Cheers
Ted
Ted: I don't know if you wree asking me this, but I will answer anyways :)
Well, he's kind of an E.A.S.Y. baby, so he gets up in the morning, I feed him his bottle (he's taking less milk these days, I don't know why - I guess he likes solids better). Then he stays in his play pen for a while, but he's learned to turn and roll over for a while now, so he goes on his tummy (after he's been in his pen or on the play mat) and starts whining and rubbing his face against the play mat or the playpan floor, he raises his but and tries to crawl. I think he's frustrated because he can't crawl. Then when I see he doesn't react to our "what's the matters" and our constant pick up and put downs, then it's time for a nap. So, if he's very tired, I can just put him in his cot and he'll fall asleep, otherwise I pick him, sing to him or pat his but and he will fall asleep in no time. At night he doesn't really wake up that much, but he does sometimes, specially now that he's teething. Well, I just pop his pacifier back in and he goes back to sleep. He doesn't go to daycare yet.
I've noticed that toys don't amuse him as much as baby food jar lids for example.. or a spoon to bang on his high chair... stuff like that. He likes that make noise, so music's good for him. He used to like stuffed animals to suck on, now he doesn't anymore... he's more of a noise baby. However, he may play for 10-15 minutes and then he will be tired about it. I really don't know how to keep him entertained. It's not like I could give him crayons and a piece of paper to draw on. YKWIM?
Thanks in advance :)
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Hi Dani,
I just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten you and will come back to you asap. :)
Cheers
Ted
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Hi Dani,
It sounds like your little guy is going through a lot of developmental changes right now (the sitting, rolling over, trying to crawl, teething etc)! Hang in there! Those times are really tough as eating and sleeping can be thrown off.
10-15 minutes of play is excellent for a 6 mos old. At that age, there attention span is a mere couple minutes, so he is right on target. And that is wonderful that he is more interested in real life "stuff" than baby toys to play with. He is exploring his world, and learning a ton from it. If he seems to be tactile and auditory, maybe try getting books with different textures for him to touch. Or search the house for materials that make noise, like crinkly pieces of plastic or paper (with supervision :) ).
Does it seem like he is fussy when he is in the play pen? Maybe ditch the play pen for a while, and use new materials and toys to interact with him. Also, it could be that he gets easily overstimulated, and would benefit from just some cuddly quiet time.
If he is going through a phase where he is fussy whether he is on the ground with toys OR being held, then my advice is to hang in there! He is still trying to figure out his own needs, especially with his developmental changes.
You are doing a great job! :wink:
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How about putting him in the play pen when your're not busy to show him that its not a place where he gets 'abandoned'. Don't mean this in a nasty way, I know why your'e trying to use it, but think about how he may feel. If you sit with him when he's in there and teach him that its a fun place to be then he may get used to it again.
How about doing chores whilst he's in the high chair? I did that at this age, DD was occupied enough by being fascinated by what mummy was doing. The massve plus point is that they can see what you are doing.
Even now if she's having a touchy day, she'll freak out if I'm preparing dinner on the counter and she can't see!!!
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Thanks Sheila and Kim... you have no idea of how nice is to hear you sat I'm doing a good job. It seemed all I was doing was wrong! I will try to involve him more buy putting him more in his highchair, although I do that now that he doesn't like his playpen. THANK YOU LADIES :D
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I understand that you should sit & play with them and not leave them to cry, but what about a daycare provider. She can't just sit with Garrett, she has other kids to care for and attend to. We aren't able to take off work for long period of time to get thru this. He is 12 mos old. He just will not play at all when he is left alone. He cries and if you leave him long enough, he'll just finally go to sleep.
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Teddy, I have a question too..... :D
What about the babies who hate the car seat and cry whenever they are in it? It's just not feasible to not go anywhere..?? :wink:
Thanks!
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Hi all,
Sorry about the delay, we have been moving.
Ok, first re:
I understand that you should sit & play with them and not leave them to cry, but what about a daycare provider. She can't just sit with Garrett, she has other kids to care for and attend to. We aren't able to take off work for long period of time to get thru this. He is 12 mos old. He just will not play at all when he is left alone. He cries and if you leave him long enough, he'll just finally go to sleep.
I guess this comes down to personal choice! If you have to have this environment for your lo then the only thing you can do is provide 'requests' to your day care provider and ask that he/she not leave your ds to cry... "long enough to go to sleep". Personally that would not be suitable for my philosophy because leaving them to cry, and if long enough, will go to sleep isn't 'helpful' to the development of a toddler/baby. It may provide you with the 'desired' outcome but that does not mean it is right. When they cry they are expressing their need... if that need is ignored for long periods of time and acted on inconsistently, this may not allow for them to 'learn' that there communication is effective or even wanted. So... I guess it is your call.
Re:
Teddy, I have a question too.....
What about the babies who hate the car seat and cry whenever they are in it? It's just not feasible to not go anywhere..??
Yep.. good question really and unfortunately you do get circumstances where some babies do not like car seats or strollers or whatever... and by the way, this can be for medical reasons such as reflux, as the car seat etc actually puts the baby in a position where their tummy 'folds' and causes reflux and pain... so once again, there is a need which may be missed. Our ds had reflux and intensely disliked his car seat and often his stroller... and we actually limited going anywhere we could not walk to (with him in the front pack) because unless it was totally necessary, I personally did not want to cause him any further pain or anxiety. The crying was not based around 'manipulation' but communicating a need. The way I see it.... the first 3 years are REALLY important for how their brain is wired and their neural pathways are formed. You spend nine months pregnant and then try and provide an environment where it is nurturing so they can learn that their communication 'skills' are both desired and effective... why would you want to push it simply because it does not fit into a lifestyle?
I feel very concerned when I read about people trying to 'train' their little ones towards independent play. This is going against their whole individual personalities and temperaments and placing an adults requirement and 'requiring' a development that they may individually not be ready for. It is so important to follow your own individual child's cues, rather than projecting an adults own requirements. Why would it be necessary to 'train' a baby/toddler... when they will get to it when they are developmentally ready, and therefore in a more secure context rather than a 'shut-down' context. They need to build trust in their caregivers and their own environment... and that is being respectful to what they are 'saying' rather than telling them what you want and how long you want to play for!
Cheers
Ted
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I am new to this site and curious about independent play. It seems that some babies are content to play independently while others (like my 3 month old) want my attention during 99% of their awake time. I provide the attention willingly but I also wonder if I should foster self-awareness and discovery.
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Wow-This post is a TOTAL blast from the past!
I wonder what ever happened to "Teddy".
Well, now that I have two I can say that it really does seem like a personality thing.
DD who is the oldest, still has a difficult time playing on her own. She is constantly saying,
"Mommy, do something with me." I have chalked it up to personality.
DS, who is #2 has always been a completely independent player. He prefers to play on his
own and will play fine with me but only does it at my instigating.
I think it is fine to promote independent play in your child but also know their innate personality.
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I agree it has A LOT to do with personality some children love to be around others lots & others find they are happy either way.