Support for dropping the nap part 11

[haribo89]

Rach - not refusing sleep is my dream lol fingers crossed its the start of good things for you.
Jessmum - this is what we have had the last few days

WU 8.40
NO NAP       - 10hr 50 day - slept 12.5hrs
BT 7.30


WU 8.15
Nap 2.35 -3.10 (35 mins)  - 13hr day -       
BT 9.15                     slept -10.5hr - 1NW


7.45
1.30 - 2.30 (1hr)  - 13.5hr day - slept 11 -
9.10                        1 NW


8.30
2.35-3.10 ( 35min)  - 14 hr day - slept 9
10.30                          3 nws

on nap days I have PD when shes been awake 12hours.

Her nights have been getting shorter and shorter since 18mo and taking forever to fall asleep at bedtime, the last 2 months shes been refusing naps on and off, slowly increasing. The above naps are when shes fallen asleep watching tv, I cant remember the last time she went in her cot at naptime. Shes not a full IS we started GW as she was rocked to sleep until 10mo due to reflux, and theres always been something that's stopped us from leaving the room, teeth/illness. However she does put herself to sleep we just stand in room, during the night she wakes and doesnt need us to go  in as she settles herself. When she refuses at nap or bt we basically just stand there, if times getting on we do sometimes try rock her to apop her asleep but it makes her angry so we put her down to contine her jumping and rolly pollys. Im sure shes overtired after last night but I cant get her to sleep.



 

[haribo89]

Ive not made a thread but I think I may need too, its just finding the time lol

[jessmum46]

Lol I know what you mean!  Ok so if she's not an independent sleeper that will complicate things a bit - can you make any progress with the gradual withdrawal now?  Also, what time are you actually putting down for bedtime?  I wonder on those really short nap days if you're missing her tired window and she's already OT by the time you're trying?

[haribo89]

we properly could progress yes, we have been putting her down at 8-8.30 depending on WU so id say roughly 12hr  after WU. I did wonder if this was to late but shes happy with 11hr days with no nap at all so thought 12hr would of been about right. Worth a try earlier?

[jessmum46]

Hmm, 12h should be ok.  Maybe she really is quite LSN and further along in 1-0 than you thought?  Have you tried maybe alternating nap and NNDs?

[haribo89]

Im really not sure. I worry about her sleep and making her OT but shes fighting all sleep, all of the time. Shes very spirited and starting to express her opinions on things during the day and im wonderig if this is continuing into the night, she doesnt want to sleep therefore will keep herself awake until she physically cant any longer. That or shes OT and its making her mores spirited, its hard to know.
Even after a NND she refuses her nap, I'll be honest last night I think me and my partner were at breaking point with her, she was using the cot as a trampoline, banging on bars and shouting, throwing things around, using all her little songs/phrases she knows makes us laugh, im assumimg to get attention, but at 10.15pm it's not very funny.
Ive noticed that she has alot of wee accidents when shes really tired where shes pretty 100% other days, I might just use that as an indicator as im out of any other idea. However even then I cant make her sleep and the more I try the more she fights.

[jessmum46]

Hugs, that does sound tough.  Does she settle easier on NNDs?  I wonder if you being in the room isn't helping now though either?  Given she's capable of lying herself down and going to sleep, and that things are crazy anyway I'd be tempted to just bite the bullet now and get out of the room.  Reassure with voice from outside if necessary, but otherwise ignore all silliness.  If she wants to play, let her do it, if she wants to have a tantrum about it, fine, reassure her, but seems a shame for you and DH to lose your whole evening. 

Other thoughts - have you tried a set BT?  I think that's been really helpful here, especially in this nap dropping phase.  I know in the past if we've moved BT later to compensate for a late WU, DD gets OT.  The way I think of it is if she had a lie-in, she probably needed the extra sleep.  If I then take it away from her again with a later BT then she can't catch up if she needs to.  Does that kind of make sense?

[haribo89]

It makes perfect sense.
On NNDs she out like a light, or was the last time we tried, she may not anymore judging on last couple of nights. part of it i thimk is I cant wind her down anymore, 2 weeks ago she would get pjs on, brush teeth, 3 books, song, bed. Now pjs are a wresting match, books consist of her crying/shouting because she wants to read them instead but when you give her them she still gets streased out, before shes even in cot shes wound up. Whats ment to relax her is stressing her out for some reason, shes just not quite old enough to explain why.
I think your on to something and maybe we should just leave, I tried earlier to leave for a few mins at a time and she sung "come on mummy" Then fake cried. No one tells you about all this when you sign up to parenthood!

[rachsk8]

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining again, lol, but I'm confused and wondered what you all made of master 2.5 sleep pattern of late?

Last weekend he had a virus but not too major, just lethargic, bit of a temp, off good, but seemed to perk up in a day or so. Since then he has clocked way more sleep hours than usual and had way more naps than usual again! Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing I guess but I'm at a loss to know what to do about bedtime etc. he's started taking himself to bed pretty much and usually much earlier than I would put him down. He's been sleeping 12-12.5hrs at night and napping every 2-3 days. Even after a nap yesterday he did 12hrs last night - a little restless from 3am so maybe a bit UT? But DH (who was looking after him) said he woke from a 1hr nap pretty grumpy. 13hrs is unheard of really. I'm wondering what's up, if he's catching up or changing sleep patterns again. He is so much happier and easier to deal with with all this extra sleep - he was averaging 11.5 hrs a night and one nap every 7-8 days up til last week.

Thoughts? Growth spurt? Recovery from illness? Change of pattern/catching up?

Long may it last I guess! ;-)

[rachsk8]

Now I've jinxed it. We had a 5am wake and he wouldn't go back to sleep. :-( Was a 6.30pm BT as usual after a nnd. He seemed a little OT which is a bit strange as he had a nap 2 days before, and had an 11.75hr night... Oh boy this process is a trying one. :-(

[jessmum46]

Sorry to hear that Rach . Maybe he had quite a bit of catching up to do after being ill?  Could be a growth spurt or something developmental though, around 2yo Js sleep needs increased massively for a few weeks then settled back to normal.  I assumed that was just growth/development though did enjoy the 8am lie-ins!!

J hasn't napped for 10 days now (great timing hey?  DS is 9 days old.....) and is generally doing ok, sticking with set BT 6.30pm and apart from this morning usually getting a post-6.30am wakeup.  Now getting to the stage I'm worried she will take a nap and throw us into complete chaos!

[rachsk8]

Hi all,

I swear this process is one step forward, one sideways, one backwards, rinse & repeat!!!

Sadly (?) we are over the spell of long 12hr nights + frequent naps.  I am picking it was a combination of sickness and a growth spurt as DS was eating like he had hollow legs for a while there also!  Now we're back to the familiar land of inconsistency.  :-)

Any thoughts or comments on the following pattern, and anything I should try? We have had (since our last nap which was Thursday) some very solid ONS (not common!) but ranging from 10-12hrs.

Here's our diary of last few days:
Thursday WU 6am, nap 2.10-3.10pm. BT 7.45 (asleep 8.15pm)
Friday: WU 6am (9.75hrs ONS), NND, BT 5.50pm, (asleep 6.15pm)
Saturday: WU 6.10am, NND, BT 6.10pm, (asleep 6.30pm)
Sunday: WU 6.20am, NND, BT 6.15pm (asleep 7pm)
Monday (today) WU 5.50am, NND, BT...

So, after our nap day we had a 9.75hr ONS, then basically 2 x 12hr nights, and last night just short of an 11hr ONS.

DS seems to be handling the NND's well thus far. He gets a little fractious, but no absolute melt-downs. I've been tending to do BT on the earlier side rather than the later as he doesn't generally tack on easily.  My logic being I'd prefer an UT EW than an OT EW... if that makes any sense!?

Our previous string of NND's (as in, nap refusal days) was 8 in a row, and by that time he certainly NEEDED to catch up.  But I'm wondering if you think I should keep every NND to 12hrs (which I have been attempting to do, give or take a few minutes) or try something else?  Not sure what the 11hr ONS was last night, OR what time to make BT tonight.  Do you think it's more about keeping it consistent, and the overall sleep he has in a week? I tried to get him to resettle when he wakes before 6am (he;s not allowed up until 6 anyway) but he won't have a BAR of lying down in bed again once he's decided it's the morning.

Gahhhh.  Any help, as always, appreciated.  :-)

[jessmum46]

We've found set BT really helpful here, don't know if it would be worth a try for you?  We've stuck to 6.30pm, asleep by 6.45pm with quiet time every day after lunch.  She's had one nap in last two weeks - on that day we just did BT 30 mins later than usual and she slept to usual WU time of 6.30am.  First few weeks of doing this we had one or two short NWs most nights, now she's STTN most nights (praying I haven't jinxed it.....)

My worry with sticking to 12h days was that relies on LO sleeping 12h or more at night otherwise you end up in an EW/EBT cycle that gets progressively earlier. I think you're right that overall sleep in a week probably matters more now than on a day to day basis.  We occasionally get a long catch up night of 12.5-13h but most usually in the 11.5-12h range.

[rachsk8]

Yes I think this might be us!!  BT went well tonight, I tucked him in at 6pm (not a single complaint) and he was asleep by about 6.20pm.  So I don't know what sort of night/morning WU that will bring... but it's just that bit too early really.  6.30pm would be great - maybe I will ease it out a little, bit by bit and see what happens....

My worry with sticking to 12h days was that relies on LO sleeping 12h or more at night otherwise you end up in an EW/EBT cycle that gets progressively earlier.

[jessmum46]

Sounds like a plan - maybe stick with 6pm for this week and then push to 6.15 and then 6.30?