short naps/still waking for 3am feed?? easy??

[mimi21]

Hi all,

My DD is nearly 6.5 months old and we are having trouble with naps and the fact she still wakes for a night feed. Our easy is usually something like this...

Awake 5:30 and in to our bed, she will usually go back to sleep with some persuasion till close to 7.

Milk at 7
Breakfast at 8
Sleep at 9 ( usually only lasts 30\45 mins)

Milk at 10:30-11
Sleep 12 again usually only 45 mins ( have tried resettling but shes having none of it.)

Lunch at 1
Milk at 2:30
Sleep at 3 another cat nap of 30-45 mins

Tea at 5
Bath at 5:45
Milk at 6
Bed 6:30

Dreamfeed somewhere between 10-11 (I've been know to fall asleep before its due, sometimes she'll wake for it other times she'll go through till 2:30)

She wakes anywhere between 1:30 and 2:30, have tried resettling without a feed but she just gets upset so o generally feed her she takes about 4-6 oz and then usually goes straight back to sleep.

She sleeps in her cot during the day, I do have to sit with her while she goes off, but generally no interference, shes usually asleep within 5-10 minutes. Have tried putting her down and leaving but she gets really upset.

She seems happy enough for the most part during the day but does have her grumpy tired times, more noticeable in the late afternoon.

I just want her to sleep through during the night and have one decent nap during the day, alongside one catnap.

[mimi21]

Last night it was 1:50. She finishes her bottles at both the dreamfeed and night feed.  6oz. She won't take more then 5-6oz during the day at each feed.

[jessmum46]

I think probably there are a couple of things going on here.  Firstly she's at the age for the 3-2 and probably needs a routine adjustment, and secondly her not being a fully independent sleeper may be making things a bit trickier for you.

Routine-wise I would suggest first of all you start increasing her first A time 10-15 mins every few days until you start getting a decent length first nap.  2h is a very short A time for her age and it may be she's UT for it most days (hence the 45 min nap) then every so often the build up of short naps means she's OT and you get a short 30 min OT nap.  The 5.30am waking may also be related to having that first nap too early.  If you increase slowly at her age she should be able to handle around 3h and will hopefully start taking a better nap for you.  You can work on the other A times in the same way so you're looking (eventually) at something more like:

WU 7
Nap 10-11.30/12
Nap 2.30/3-4/4.30
BT 7/7.30pm (or you could have a shorter pm nap and earlier BT if that works better)

A night feed isn't unreasonable at this age, and there's also a big growth spurt around six months.  Has she started solids yet?  What sort of things/quantities is she having?  Could you try gradually reducing the oz you offer at the night feed so that if it genuinely is hunger she starts to shift some of her calories back to the daytime?

I wonder if she could get used to settling without you in the room whether that might also help?  You could do gradual withdrawal since she's already falling asleep on her own in the cot - over a period of several days you gradually move further and further from the cot until you are out of the door.  What do you think?  Can she see you at the moment from where she falls asleep?

[mimi21]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

Ok, I will try to adjust her first A time, she always seems so tires by 9 am, running her eyes etc. But will give it a go.
I'll have to tweak it a bit as I need to drop my daughter off at preschool at 12:15 so leave the house at 12 and pick her up at 2:45 so leave at 2:30 but thats only twice a week.

She is on solids, we started before Xmas but took a break as she was poorly so we just concentrated on her milk.
Shes only been on fruit and veg but I intend to introduce some meat this week. She does have 3 meals, fruit and baby rice for brekkie, veg for lunch and dinner with a yogurt. She doesn't eat a great deal but I do think it's increasing a bit.

We used to do ssh pat as she used to only sleep in my arms and noe we are at the point of me sitting next to her cot and just putting dummy in when she cries. There isn't much room for me to move in her room, no where for me to go where she wouldn't see me. I've two options, I could sit with my back to her or just sit outside her bedroom door?

With regard to the naps, would you continue with 3 until you get one decent nao, I dont want her to get OT.

[jessmum46]

LOs can get used to sleeping at a certain time and can show tired cues before they are 'really' ready for a good nap.  Just go slow on the A time increases and you'll do fine

Yes of course you can adjust the routine to fit round other commitments too - the times I wrote were just a guideline.  I would try to work towards two naps as soon as you can though as LO can also end up OT from short UT naps, and increasing A time is often the way to break the cycle.  It's not uncommon for some OT to happen during nap transitions so try not to worry about it too much.  If you need a third nap in the day to get to anywhere near a reasonable bedtime, keep it short, 20-30 mins or so just to see you through. 

With working out of the room how about you start by sitting side-on or with your back to her, then gradually move your chair a few inches closer to the door every night or two?

[mimi21]

We've had the worst few nights for a long time! She's been awake every few hours really unsettled and needing a lot of help to resettle. Last night was really tough and as a result I have a very tired girl today. We had been pushing nap time to 9:30 with nap length remaining at 45/50 mins. We are then really struggling to get to lunch time for a nap and again it's short and we are then needing a nap between 4 and 5 for 30 minutes. Bed time has moved slightly later to 6:45 and she's asleep by 7 but she wakes throughout evening but easily resettled until 10 when she wants her bottle.
I already sit side on so can try back to her but I really have no where to go from there unless I sit on the floor out of site.
Not sure how today will go, after Super restless night she was up at 6:30 ready  for a nap at 8 but I got her to 8:40, she was asleep in minutes but up after 50/55 minutes. She's already tired keeps snuggling in, playing with hands, rubbing eyes etc

[jessmum46]

Is she teething at all?  Have you tried medicating to see if it helps? 

How are you getting on with her settling alone?  It's very difficult if she's not an independent sleeper as you can tweak the routine all you like but she may still short-nap because she doesn't know how to get back to sleep without you there.  I would try sitting on the floor if that's the only practical option.

That said, 45/50/55 min naps can still be UT as well and given she is still having short A times for her age I do think you need to push those up.  Even if she wakes after 50 mins or so you'll have a better chance of resettling with an appropriate A time.  Really she probably needs to be having closer to 3h awake by now - most 6.5/7 month olds need that long for a decent nap. 

The transition time is tough and all you can do is ride it out until you've pushed the awake time enough to be properly on two naps.  I know it's tempting to keep dropping the A time because LO seems tired, but the reason they get tired is because they are having undertired short naps and therefore end up OT by the end of the day.  Night sleep is also often broken because the A times were too short.  The way to break the cycle is to push the A times enough so that LO can take a decent nap and start to catch up on rest

[mimi21]

She may well be teething although I haven't noted any, but she does always have her hands in her mouth, will medicate tonight and see if that helps.

She used to self settle just fine, she used to go to bed and we wouldn't hear anything till she woke for a feed somewhere between 10\11. She'd then go back to bed and before Xmas and before she got poorly we had dropped the night feed and I was able to get her back off at 3 with a bit of SSH pat, she'd then wake at 5\5:30 I would then feed and she'd go back off till 7:7\30. We would then do a top up feed and start our day.idea was to slowly push that feed out and start our day earlier if need be, anytime after 6\6:30 is fine with us. She then got poorly and we are where we are, so I know she can do it.

As for routine could I not put her down at 9, but just let her have 30 minutes and then push for a super nap 2\2:30\3 hours at 12?? Would this not work?? My eldest was an awful napper until we switched to one nap and then she was fine, but I seem to remember her sleeping a long nap in the morning and a catnap in the pm, but she was overtired and we had several new and very early starts.

[jessmum46]

I can't really advise on that sort of routine, I know other baby sleep experts do advocate something like that but it's not something I have experience with until LOs are well into the 2-1 nap transition.  From a BW perspective we'd generally aim for two full naps (ie 1.5h or more) at just over six months and only cut one short once LO starts needing more A time and the day gets too long.  But you have to do what suits you and your family . We can still support you with the independent sleep even if you're not going with a traditional BW routine. 

[mimi21]

Ok, well I shall aim for 2 full naps, sounds great to me it's just getting her there.
She's been off her milk and food today so could well be teeth. Have medicated before bed and will so again at her 10ish feed. Fingers crossed we have a better night to give us a better start for tomorrow.

[mimi21]

Well medicine certainly helped. She slept quite soundly till her feed at 10, settled back quickly after bottle and slept till 12:55. I was then up and down for rest of night till she came in with me at 4:30. She then slept till 6.
No night feed tho, I figure she didn't need it before Xmas and is now eating more so doesn't need it now and while I'm trying to resettle her we may as well stop that feed. Will aim for as close to 9 as we can get. Fingers crossed.

[mimi21]

We made it to 9!! She was very tired. But she then settled on her own, had to go in twice to give her her dummy.
She woke after 40 minutes but I was able to resettle after 10 minutes, she totalled 1hr 40 minutes. Not a bad nap. :-)

[mimi21]

So for last few naps she's been going down by herself and this morning slept an hour 40 without me having to go in. Very pleased.

I've had to put her up for an earlier sleep after 2.5 hours  allow her a decent sleep and to fit in with school run.

My question is she'll have to be up by 2.30 so I can collect her sister.
I am happy for her to go  bed at 6:30 but that's an awful long A time.  Do I let her have a catnaps around 20 minutes about, 4:30 to get to bed or go for an early bedtime and risk am extra early start tomorrow. She was up at 6.

Thanks.

[mimi21]

Never mind, transferred from cot to buggy, still in bag and she stayed asleep.
Next question, how long is too long? She's still sleeping. 2 hours 15 in.
So far her total sleep has been nearly 4 hours today, 1hr40 this morning and now this one....

Who'd have thought a week ago I'd be worry about her nap being too long!!

[jessmum46]

I would generally wake LO up at 2h if they hadn't woken while still on two naps, but great day, you must be pleased!!

[mimi21]

Very pleased. Shes done very well, she woke at 2hrs 20. So 4 hours in total for sleep is average?? She had a good day yesterday two 1hr40 minute naps.
She went down tonight with no fuss tonight without me sitting with her.

Tomorrow will be hit and miss with sleeps as out all day but back to it Friday!

Thanks for your advise.

[mimi21]

Still we have several nw last night from 2:30 And then throughout until she came in with us at 5.
We've dropped the feed and she doesn't seem to miss it. She's not complaining that much just awake.

Her naps are much better and she settles on her own, why the nw?

[jessmum46]

Hi Mimi, how are things going?  Please do feel free to post a current or recent EASY if you're still struggling and I'd be happy to take a look

[mimi21]

Hi,

Things aren't going great to be honest....she is awake several times during the night, some nights worse then others...some nights she wakes we can pop her dummy back in and she goes back off, other times she cries even tho she has her dummy and I have to sit with her to get her back off.
She is then so tired in the morning we struggle to get to 2 hours A time before she falls asleep sitting up on my lap. She'll then have 30/40 minutes. I've then been keeping her up till 11:30/12 before putting her down again to fit in with school run
But she will only have 50 mins top. I managed yesterday to get her up and sfterv15 mins awake she finally gave in and had another 30 minutes.
She was then awake till bed at 6 as she can't stay up any longer.

So our easy has been
Awake 5:30/6
Up at 6/6;30
Sleep at 8/8:30 for 30/40 mins
Sleep at 11:30/12 aiming for her to sleep till 2/2:30
Bottle at 6 she usually falls asleep on this.
I wake her enough to put her down.

She settles for naps in her own. Its just a viscous circle.

[jessmum46]

I think probably you need to push her to stay awake longer first thing, get to 3h consistently and get the nap to 9am earliest it will be seriously hard if her nights aren't good but I think until you do it you're going to continually struggle with her being OT by bedtime . You could consider doing a day or two of super early BT ie 5pm to see if it helps her catch up a bit?  Sometimes LO will actually sleep better and longer with the early BT, I know it sounds counter-intuitive but it can really help some LOs get out of a mess.  I'd only do it one or two days at a time though so you don't end up with 5pm becoming the norm.  What do you think?

[mimi21]

Well today nap 1 was 9:15 she was awake from 6:15ish, it helped as we had to make a quick dash to doctors for DD1 but she still then only slept for 40 minutes, I tried the usual, patting, cuddles but she was having none of it.
She then had about 40 minutes in the car and shops and another 30 minutes on the way home.
She was awake then from 2:20 until bed at 6:15.

I will try and push her in the mornings but she gets very upset as she's tired and this morning couldn't settle herself as she was too tired.

Despite the short naps apart from the morning she's very happy.

[mimi21]

Do you think these night wakings are OT??
If so is it worth me throwing the two naps out the window and try letting her have as many catnaps as she wants, but keeping her awake after 3pm for a few days so she can catch up??

[jessmum46]

That could work....but for us I always found getting some proper restorative naps in the day actually helped more with getting rid of OT.  If she's shattered first thing how about letting her have her first nap as soon as she's ready just as a one-off (2.5h A or so) and hope it's a decent length, then shoot for 3h A before second nap, then if it's more than 3h to a reasonable BT allow her a third catnap that day?  We did need to go back to 3 naps sometimes when it all fell apart a bit so don't be scared to do that if she needs a catch up.

Is it feasible for you to stay in for a day or two so she doesn't keep having catnaps in the car?