2 year old twins not sleeping at all-Desperate

[albers30]

We went on vacation 2 weeks ago and ever since returning our just now 2 year old twin girls have literally stopped sleeping.  See current schedule below.  Lilly starts waking at 10 pm and almost every 1-2 hours after that.  She can generally be settled with a hug and a pat on the back for a few minutes but then wakes again screaming an hour later.  Claire generally sleeps til about 1 am then wakes up screaming bloody murder unless you are in the room with her then if you stay in the room she'll lay in her crib crying out periodically but won't go to sleep until 3 or 4 in the morning.  Sometimes they just both scream non-stop and will carry on for an hour or more working themselves up to vomiting if we don't stay in the room with them.   Unfamiliar with any sleep method training styles other then walk in walk out which doesn't work and crying it out which doesn't work.

Wake (currently with bad sleep at night) 730-8am
Activity
Lunch Noon
Nap 1230 generally 1-1.5 hours although there have been a few 2 hour naps recently
Activity
Dinner 6
Bath
Bedtime wind down 7
bedtime 730pm

[jessmum46]

Hi and hugs, you must all be very tired.

Lots of things can disrupt sleep at this age, birthdays and half-birthdays are notorious for sleep silliness.  Can you tell us what their routine was like pre-vacation and what happened whilst you were away?  Any time change?  Late nights/missed naps?  Are they getting molars/canines right now?  And are you using pain meds if so?  Have their naps changed in length from previously?  Have you tried an earlier nap or BT to try to combat overtiredness?

Are they both independent sleepers usually?

Please don't leave them to CIO, that is not something we support at all on this forum as Tracy Hogg (author of the BW books) believed it could damage the bond of trust between LO and caregivers.  If they have been left alone to cry you may need to spend some time rebuilding trust/confidence and consider a gradual withdrawal approach to settling them at night wakings.  There are some links below you might find helpful:

Regaining Trust of Your Child
Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

Hopefully with a bit more information we can help you come up with a plan

[albers30]

No, I've never left them to cry it out more then 10minutes maybe, I can't stand that idea and feel it's just mean. There routine is the same now as prior to vacation and it was essentially the same on vacation except there was a time change from central to east coast time and back and a few late bedtimes by an hour or so. The main difference and what I think is essentially the problem is there was some co-sleeping due to sleep arrangements while traveling. They are independent sleepers. They go to sleep on their own at nap and bedtime and used to settle themselves well or at least with just a quick pat. No teething, they've got canines and molars already and teething has never been a big deal for them. They were really sick for a few datys a few weeks prior to vacation but that's really the only other thing that's gone on.

[jessmum46]

Glad you're not going down the CIO route . Responding to the kind of cry rather than watching the clock is the route we'd always take - so if it's whinging/mantra/fussing you can leave them to it, 'I need you' should be responded to immediately.

Ok from what you've said there are two potential issues.  OT from time change, and possible co-sleeping habit.  For the first I would try bring BT forward by 30 mins or so for a few days and see if that helps.  For the second, if you have found that WIWO doesn't work for them (it does aggravate some LOs) then I would work on a gradual withdrawal plan where you sit in the room until they go back to sleep, and then gradual,ply work your way out of the room.  There is some information in the link above

[KookyK]

What was your experience of walk in walk out? I have found it the only way to train my v stubborn then 14 month old and still use it from time to Time a few months on. The way I've done it is to walk in if crying bad after 2 mins (or slightly less if crying bad/call out 'I'll be back in a minute'). Then pop in max 10 secs and say mantra phrase and leave, then repeat. I find staying or lying him down or touching him winds him up in my LO's case. I really rate WIWo altho I appreciate its not for all and may not be for you. Just wondering!

My my DD whom I never sleep trained 2 yrs was about the age things improves so hopefully after this blip things will naturally improve alongside all the good ideas from here x

[Katet]

Have you ruled out anything like ear infections. My experience with both my boys was that the screaming in the middle of the night was often ear infection related & neither of them actually showed any obvious sides of an infection. I would try giving some ibuprofen (on a full stomach) at bedtime & see if that makes any difference, or some paracetamol based pain meds in the middle of the night just to rule out any pain as an issue.

[albers30]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you all, with the holidays, work, and sheer exhaustion from lack of sleep computer time has been limited.  Claire did have an ear infection a few weeks ago and I treated it and it cleared but made no difference in sleep.  I'm and ENT doc so I watch those things closely.  Walk in walk out works the same as any other approach I spend 2-3 hours walking in and out every 10-15 minutes or so when she starts screaming hysterically tuck her back in tell her goodnight and walk out and within a few minutes whimpering starts back in and escalates over the next 10-15 minutes to full blow screaming till I go back in and do the same thing.  At least when I sit in the room with her she lays quietly and rests even if she's not sleeping.  We've had bumps in the road before with sleep but its never lasted more then a few days to a week tops, this is going on a month now and no more then a few hours of sleep for that long is starting to wear on me (not to mention I'm in my first trimester of pregnancy on top of it all).  Any other suggestions?

[jessmum46]

Is their routine still the same as above?  So a less than 12h day with a 1.5-2h nap?  If so the NWs could be UT....

[albers30]

No, they are pretty much back to their normal routine.  Wake around 7am the rest of the day is the same, you read the nap time wrong its 1-1.5hrs not 1.5-2 hrs and generally its closer to that 1 hour mark, and bedtime about 745.  I don't think its UT because they are clearly demonstrating signs of being tired by bath/wind down time and are literally fast asleep within 10 minutes of putting them in their crib if not faster sometimes.

[jessmum46]

With all due respect in the routine above you did say they were sometimes having 2h naps and waking at 7.30/8am....I just wanted to clarify how things stood now.

If it were me I would start pushing their nap later.  Probably to 1pm in the first instance, keep BT the same and see if that helps.  If not you may need to cap the nap to a consistent 1h, and possibly even shorter.  My DD was having 1/2 no nap days per week by this age.

[Katet]

Walk in walk out works the same as any other approach I spend 2-3 hours walking in and out every 10-15 minutes or so when she starts screaming hysterically tuck her back in tell her goodnight and walk out and within a few minutes whimpering starts back in and escalates over the next 10-15 minutes to full blow screaming till I go back in and do the same thing. 

OK to me the way you have described it really sounds more like controlled crying than it does WI/WO, for me the WI/WO would happen when they whimpering gets to be more than a whinge. To me it sounds like there is an issue with separation anxiety going on.  I will admit I totally struggle with hearing that a baby or toddler has been left until they get to full blown screaming as I'd never leave an 11yo screaming, so why would a 2yo be left screaming. I do understand that as parents we need sleep, but not at the expense of a child getting hysterical or screaming & I think that when they get to that point then maybe it is overlooking the emotional needs of a toddler in the needs of an adult to have them sleeping.

To me WI/WO is more about going in the moment a child shows that they need comfort  (big whimper) & giving it to comfort them to show that Mum &/or Dad do come to their call & that we would never leave them. If they are left until they are really upset, well I struggle with that because I know with older children how hard it is for them when I was even a few minutes late picking them up or situations like that & think how stressful it must be for a 2yo to not really trust a parent was coming back.

If she settles when you stay in the room, personally I'd set myself up for that for a week or two & re-build trust & see if that doesn't improve sleep.