BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: cymonguk on November 08, 2005, 09:28:42 am
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Our dd is in her 6th week, and suddenly everything has gone a little haywire..
Previously she would feed alst thing at night between 11:30-12:30 and then sleep till around 5:30-6:00, suddenly she has started waking up every three hours and wants to feed for an hour plus.
My poor wife is absolutely exhausted, Phoebe has never been a great sleeper during the day, but we have got used to this and because she slept 5 hours at night we could survive.
She did sleep for three hours late last night, unfortunately my wife took this as an opportunity to "do things", so she didnt sleep then.
Is this to be expected around now? Will she go back as before herself or do we need to start putting more effort into giving her a stricter schedule?
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Sounds like a 6 week growth spurt... very normal. If she is bf she should offer as often as possible in the day time - to build up supply... if bottle feeding increase the amount offered.
It usually lasts about 3 days & if it hasn't settled in 4-5 then post a question again.
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Well she seems to have got over this, she is back to her normal routine of 5-6 hour sleeps at night.
However we are still haveing lots of problems with her sleeping generally this is an example day:
12-5 - Sleeps (in our bed (yes I know :()
5-6 - Feeds
6-9 - Sleeps
9-11 - Awake, gets fussy, obviously shattered but cant get to sleep
11-12 - Sleeps fitfully (on my wife)
12-4 - Awake mostly, gets grumpy obviously overtired still
4-6:30 - Sleeps (on my wife)
6:30 - 9 - Awake, lots of crying and being grumpy
9-10 - Sleeps
10-12 - Awake
During her awake time she probably only is active for 20 minutes at a time then she will want to feed, and then she is grumpy
Phoebe is inconsolable when she starts crying, the only way I have found is to put her into her sling, and this will sometimes help.
Obviously the night time sleeping is great, and means we get some rest especially my wife, but during the day she just doesnt seem to be able to sleep.
I am considering a miracle blanket to stop her fussing so much, but I know she isnt keen on swaddling when we have tried it but that may be down to the technique we have used.
She is a bit of touchy/spirited baby from what we cn tell so far.
But I wouldnt swap her for the world, her smiling and coos when I get home are worth those hours of crying and walking back and forth...
I think she would be better sleeping on her own if we could do it, but she just wont stop crying even with shh/pat
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How long is she awake before you put her down for a sleep. do you feed her on waking? I would keep her up no more than an hour possibly only 45mins - including feed time... sounds to me like she is overtired.
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Sounds to me like she is overtired too. I'm amazed because your schedule looks identical to how our baby's was until this week when we started EASY. He was so grumpy and cried all of the time. He was constantly fussy and I was going out of my mind.
When our baby was 5 weeks old we were desperate, we got the BW book and read it. Then, we got him out of our bed and started putting him down for a nap much more quickly after his feed so that his awake time is about an hour to an hour and 15 minutes. At first that seemed so short to me but I guess they need a lot of sleep because he goes right down for his nap now.
It took a couple of very rough days to get him to go down for a nap without being held while he slept. But, now that he is on EASY, he is much happier and our home is much more calm. It's worth the rough couple of days adjustment.
Good luck!
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however can I ask for more advice? :roll:
Yesterday basically we had a bit of a break down :(
My wife had had a really bad day with Phoebe, and we had a blazing argument, to be honest I wasnt particularly helpful :( , but its as frustrating for me as it is Karen..
We have made up now :D , and we know we need to try to sort this out, but we are still stuck on the how.
Yesterday was pretty much the same as shown on the schedule above except she went to bed last thing earlier but hardly got any sleep from 1pm-9pm! She is a bit sniffly at the moment and cant really breathe as well as she should which doesnt help at night right now.
The other issues are that Phoebe almost always feeds to sleep, this results in her sleeping on Karens chest, except at night (when she sleeps in our bed). Thus Karen yesterday didnt get changed all day, hadnt had a shower/brushed her teeth, and cant have any "you" time. When Phoebe falls asleep with Karen she will wake up as soon as you move her or within 5 minutes (yesterday evening I took her and Karen went for a shower and within two minutes she was awake).
When she is going to sleep, she is really fussy, she will bob on and off, part crying, etc so we know she is knackered besides being awake for 8 hours.
We cant even get to the stage of using the breast pump to help because Phoebe is permanently attached, mind you Karen tried last night and Phoebe actually rather seemed to like the noise of the electric pump it sent her to sleep... lol.
We know Phoebe is capable of sleeping on her own as for the last two weeks after a thirty minute car journey she has slept in her car seat for 2-2.5 hours (I know this is not ideal, but it would be a long story why this is better for her than waking her up after two hours). So it is obvious she can sleep without being attached, as long as she falls asleep on her own.
Can anyone help with how we break this down into smaller steps to break the reliance on feeding to sleep, and then getting her to sleep on her own. I have tried shh/pat but she seems to be able to scream louder than we can shh :x, and then she starts almost choking :( . I have to say my wife does not like to hear her scream anyway so it makes it difficult.
I love her to bits but Im worried this could be starting to cause problems for Karen (I dont think its got to PPD yet), but Im worried that much longer with this might cause some depression.
I have tried swaddling her but Im not sure we did it right, but she really seemed to hate it.
Someone mentioned they had a rough couple of nights, can someone explain what this might mean, what stages we might expect I can then share this discussion with my wife, and hoefully she can see there is light at the end of the tunnel??
Thanks
Simon
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We feel Phoebe is missing out, because only occasionally does she get to play, sometimes she will sit happily for 20-25 minutes in her ring cooing at her toys but because we change her when she wakes up (insists my wife), then she is fed because she is hungry, then she is tired or cross or asleep, she doesnt seem to have any fun time, when we went to my mothers after the half hour journey and 2 hour sleep, she is a lovely thing quite happy to play with Nanna and Grandad, but then she gets grumpy because she is tired cant get off to sleep and we have to leave because she screams the place down.
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I have been readin the latest BW book, and there are various recommendations, I have been and bought a miracle blanket today to see if that will help.
Currently I have to say that because she feeds to sleep then this is a problem, I know my wife might be reluctant to break this as she will fear that Phoebe just wont go to sleep full stop (indeed she has cried for 15 minutes whilst trying other things), but I guess we need to put some activity in between her feeding and going to sleep.
We also tend to have her downstairs when she is feeding, should we go upstairs or should we feed her downstairs then take her up to her room, where its nice and dark and quiet to do the four S?
I guess we also need to try and do an EASY plan, the question is at 6 weeks should we be going for a three hour easy plan or four? Say we choose four and she feeds for 45m, then plays 45m, then she should sleep 2.5 hours (including everything), what do you do after 2.5 hours and she is still asleep? What if she wants more feeding?
Aggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :shock: :D
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Phoebe has only had 1.5 hrs sleep in the last 10 :shock: . My wife is definitely close to breaking point now. :cry:
I can see this is going to be a long night
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I can relate to the incredible love you feel, but also being drained, frustrated, sleep deprived and wondering exactly what I got myself into and if/when life will resemble something normal ever again.
I'm stumbling through this with our lovely daughter, Katie (3WO), so I'm no expert, but here's what I would recommend:
1. Keep Phoebe awake while she eats. We've turn the lights on, unwrap Katie, move arms/legs, talk to her, and even used the wet washcloth (that one just seemed cruel, though) to keep our sleepy eater awake and finishing a bottle. She's generally takes 20-40 minutes to finish a 3-4 oz. bottle.
2. I definitely agree with changing AFTER eating. Katie will almost always wake up during a diaper change - even if it's just to a drowsy state. Better than full asleep in my opinion. Then we go straight to sleep. The diaper change is all the activity Katie can handle most times. (Evenings are her more alert periods where we can study each others faces, take a bath, sing with dad, etc.) However, even with the diaper change she still looks for the bottle (just needs a nip or two) when she's overtired. We've been working on it for a couple of days and sometimes it's good - she'll go to sleep in 5-10 minutes; sometimes it's 45 minutes of full-on crying.
3. Katie is used to being held to sleep (sometimes with bottle, like at night; sometimes just being walked around). My attempts to go "cold turkey" to the crib have been met with crying fits. I swear she just knows when we get close to the crib sometimes and starts crying! So, just today, I thought it might be a good transition step to use shh/pat while she's in my arms. It's actually more like a shh/bounce. We definitely have a bedtime/naptime routine that we follow: draw the shade, say goodnight to the dog, start our lullaby music and sit very still in the rocker. I don't rock the chair or make eye contact, but I do bounce her a little bit to mimick the pat and I do the "shh". My theory is that it if she gets used to the pat/shh in my arms, it will make the transition to the crib easier if the pat/shh already is part of the routine. Would LOVE feedback on others if they think this might be effective.
4. Swaddle Phoebe anyway. Our little Katie needs to be swaddled - those flailing arms and legs are just way to distracting for her. Katie will sometimes struggle and fight against it and sometimes I have to re-swaddle her a few times but I think overall it really helps. Let me know what you think of the Miracle Blanket - I just ordered our third brand of swaddle blanket because our little Houdini seems to get out of everything!
5. If you haven't tried a paci, give it a whirl. It may buy you a few minutes of calm, or at least less intense crying. The BW books say that it's okay for the first few months.
6. Your wife may want to explore pumping and bottle-feeding the breast milk. I can't offer a lot of thoughts here, because we're bottle-feeding (milk supply issues). But, when I was trying to breast-feed, Katie would always resist the bottle and paci after she had the breast. Major drama for the next couple of feedings. Pumping is a good alternative for us so she can still have some breast milk, dad can help with the feedings giving mom a break (for a shower, walk, nap or just a sanity break), and it didn't cause problems with subsequent feedings.
7. Always remember and remind your wife that she is a great mother and you are a great father. Support each other during all of this.
8. Two quotes that I remember when my LO is bawling is that:
a) All babies cry. And, it doesn't mean you're a bad parent.
b) No baby every died from crying. (Although I think maybe a parent or two might have :D )
9. I don't know how long all of this will take. We're in the midst of it now and, there are good feeds/bad feeds, good and bad naps/sleep. Maybe someone else can provide some guideance on how long. The books say an average of 3 days. But, they also say that it takes less time/retraining the younger your baby is.
10. Last item, I promise. Some of the best parenting advice I've gotten is that you have to do what works for the family (part of the BW philosophy). Some things clearly aren't working for the whole group and it might take some tears (from baby, mom and dad) to get to a better arrangement.
Good luck. Hope others have some more suggestions.
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Did you say that Phoebe is Touchy/Spirited? From other posts, I've read that T/S babies don't like to be swaddled. I'm not sure what the parents do to keep the arms/legs from being a disruption...
Also some other parents have posted that shh/pat actually stimulates their babies - not soothes! So, see what works for Phoebe. Some other soothing things we use for our LO includes a gentle rub/caress of the top of her head (like smoothing her hair) and if she gets overtired, rubbing her eyebrows will help her relax and it forces her to close her eyes.
Finally, when we were making the transition from our bed to her crib (during the first week), I considered sleeping with Katie's bedding for a couple of nights to get our scent on her sheets. I thought this might make it seem more like our bed. I didn't actually do it though, so I don't know if it would help.
Gotta go. My boss is calling again!
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I've read that T/S babies don't like to be swaddled. I'm not sure what the parents do to keep the arms/legs from being a disruption...
they don't like it, but boy do they need it!!! believe it or not, when they're that little, the ones who fight it the most really benefit from it. you might want to try the aussie swaddle - instructions are at the top of this forum.
you've gotten some great advice so far.
your wife is an amzaing woman and a fantastic mother. :D
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OK well tonight hasnt been the best...
7-8 : Wife asked if we could take her out in the car to try and buy some sleep for her and baby, I agreed, reluctantly (not tho too my wife), on the basis she needed something. We drove for an hour 10 mins. Phoebe slept for an hour or so.
8-9 : She fed on my wife
9-11: I swaddled phoebe tight, in miracle blanket, put her over shoulder and into her room (which has a nice low light), she started to drop off, then woke up again, so i took her into our room, and sat down. She cried for a few minutes on and off with me shh/patting, and my wife came in, i was expecting a huge argument, but sh said tracey had done it for 17 mins once, so i carried on, after 13 mins she started nodding so i put her down.
She smiled and fell asleep, so i carried on shhh-ing, but i knew it wouldnt last, she woke up and cried and i sshh-d her back off then two mins later she screamed, so ihad to pick her up, she nodded off so i put her down as she was going and repeated the last sequence :roll:
I have to say she has now fed to sleep on my wife, i know, but i think we need to make a clean start tomorrow. Im going to try and get a holiday for weds so i can help for a full day.
Should we try to cure both problems of her feeding to sleep and sleeping on us/in our bed, or should we cure just one? I know we can crack the feeding to sleep if we want, the putting down is going to be harder...
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Oh and thankyou for the ideas and help, i am using them, hopefully we wont go insane...
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The miracle blanket does work, she wasnt overly impressed at first, especially when getting her into it, but once she was wrapped and over my shoulder she was quite happy.
She still fought tho, but its great for a number of reasons, during feeding she normally scratches karen to death, or hits her and fusses a lot. Not with the MB.
Phoebe did get her legs out but Im not convinced I have done it right.
Certainly better than a normal blanket much easier to get her in, and control her arms.
I have to say I do feel a little mean as she is now finding her hands pretty consistently and sucks them to death, however this is not a good thing as it does not soothe her yet. She gets annoyed they arent giving milk!
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hi
firstly you asked about feeding every 4 hours - at 6 weeks i woudl aim for 3 (or less sometimes if BF)
stick with the swaddle as it can really help in the first 3 months as they learn to nap better
most important thing is to be consistent so she starts to learn what will happen - so when you are trying to shh/pat her dont keep picking her up -better to keep her in the bed and just continue and make sure your shhing is a high volume (like a running tap) and you are patting firmly and rhythmically (see the sleep interview to get really good descriptions)
i think the idea of sleeping with her bedding is a good one or you can just lay something of yours(a t shirt or your pillowcase) under her sheet. this can be reassuring as she will feel like you are there with her even thoughshe will be in her own bed.
i will have to come back later and have another look through your posts and see if i can help more. got to go take care of my 2 :D
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Currently I have to say that because she feeds to sleep then this is a problem, I know my wife might be reluctant to break this as she will fear that Phoebe just wont go to sleep full stop (indeed she has cried for 15 minutes whilst trying other things), but I guess we need to put some activity in between her feeding and going to sleep.
We also tend to have her downstairs when she is feeding, should we go upstairs or should we feed her downstairs then take her up to her room, where its nice and dark and quiet to do the four S?
I guess we also need to try and do an EASY plan, the question is at 6 weeks should we be going for a three hour easy plan or four? Say we choose four and she feeds for 45m, then plays 45m, then she should sleep 2.5 hours (including everything), what do you do after 2.5 hours and she is still asleep? What if she wants more feeding?
Firstly you would be best to go on a 3 or even 2.5 hour EASY as 4 hour is approriate for 4months + (& bf babies may never get to a total 4 hour EASY) doing 3 hour EASY can mean doing anything from 2.5 to 3.5 on occasions, so if your lo is obviously hungry early you would feed. or let her sleep a bit longer.
Secondly Awake time for a 6 week old can be as little as 45mins... so that really can just be feed & nappy change. You may get 5-10mins "play time" in sometimes. But you really don't want your lo to be up longer than 1 hour & so you should start a wind down after about 45mins... just to give you an idea keeping her up even 1.25 hours is the equivalent of an adult staying awake about 36 hours, so if you only got 2- 4 hours sleep then were up for 36 hours & then got 2-4 hours sleep & that repeated for a week or 2 you could imagine what it is like for Phoebe.
Now I have been where your dw is & feeding to sleep does work for somepeople BUT what it really is doing is an oxytocin induced (chemical) sleep, so once that wears off she will wake up. Do you have a rocking chair, as that is a great way to "help" get her ready for sleep.
When you change the routine to Eat Activity (at this age just a nappy change & a cuddle is usually all they can cope with) Sleep IT WILL cause crying & there WILL be times it can take up to an hour to get her off (It just took me an hour with my 5.5mo as he was very overtired). The thing is to act early not late.
I also agree with swaddling...I have always used the Aussie swaddle & with 2 very big boys, I used a cot sheet so they didn't break free.
It is not going to be an easy road as I hate the crying too... but the longer you leave it the harder it will be. Also I think if you even remotely suspect PPD, I would follow up on it. I know for me being diagnoses with PPD was almost a blessing as it opened up new support networks that helped me greatly.
Your wife is doing a great job & is lucky to have such a supportive husband... both of you need to relax a bit & enjoy your lo too & if you can give her a back massage or she takes a long bath, that can only help. The more relaxed you try to be the better it is for little Phoebe... 3 deep breaths repeat many times through out the day as often as possible, the more relaxed you are the more Phoebe will relax & know you are in control.
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ok - nothing much left for me to say right now - kate said everything and very clearly!!
to echo my earlier message - consistency will help you get through it - you just need to pick what course you want to take and stick to it and make sure you are comfortable with whatever choices you make...
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Thanks for the replies.
I think tonight I will try and get her through this, and hopefully I can take wednesday off work to help for a full day..
I know in theory I should have carried on last night, but Karen and Phoebe were so tired I had to take a view that them getting some sleep was better than nothing.
Tonight I can be home earlier and will make more effort. It was working to some degree last night, however when she woke up in her crib she was screaming, a couple of times i could calm her back down with shhing and she would do the whole wah,wah, wah, thing and go quiet again, but when she screamed I just felt I needed to pick her up, I will try to leave her longer next time :(
I have to say Karen did well last night to leave me to it, I know that was hard for her, but she was impressed when she could see Phoebe go to sleep in the crib on her own, so I think she can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
As a side point why are people such a***s? My MIL phoned last night and spent an hour telling my wife "she shouldnt be sleeping with you", "she shouldnt be feeding to sleep", "babies are supposed to cry you know", so my wife ended up crying, does she not think we know this? Karen was trying to explain this, and she obviously wasnt listening, because Karen kept saying "Yes but how do we get to that??".If you have bugger all positive to say, say nothing... RANT OVER :)
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i don't know enough about your wife's relationship with her mother, but i do know that she needs support at this time and if anyone else calls and has negative cr@p to dump on either of you can i suggest you cut them short (including your parents) with a "thanks for the suggestions i think i hear DW/DH calling me i will have to sut you short right now. love you - bye" :D it will save your sanity later and avoid any arguments (unless you want to tell them specifically that they are not being helpful :wink: )
you said "when she woke up in her crib" - did you mean that she fell asleep on you/nursing and then was transfered? that is a comon response if that was the case - they come into light sleep and realize they are not where they were last. that's why it is good to even gently rouse her as you are putting her down - just enough for her to stir awake gently and then say "night night"
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No i know, when Karen was talking to her I was trying to make this point by mouthing to her "phoebe needs you, tell her you will speak to her later", Phoebe didnt need her but that wasnt the point. Its a difficult relationship in many ways:
1) Karens Dad died a couple of years ago, really the only person her mum speaks to on a weekly basis is Karen, as her sister doesnt. Conversely her sister is the blue eyed girl, because of the grandsons she has, who can do no wrong.
2) Everyone has always seemed to expect Karen to fail at things (like at school, and then they expected her to be pregnant young (yet her sister did at 15), and before we had the baby MIL and sister would say "oh it will be different when you have one, then you'll see"), I just feel like shouting sod off down the phone!! Over time I have tried to help her see that she isnt a failure and before she became pregnant she had run two businesses, been a manager at some of the biggest nurseries, and then was a nanny for older kids, and then she gets this kind of cr@p :(
Fortunately my Mum and Dad are pretty good, they had my only brother really late (Im 15 years older than him), so they remember more what it is like, and are really understanding when we are there and she is crying, they dont criticise at all, (even if they thought we were wrong I dont think they would say anything, they know its not much fun)
When I say she cried when we put her down she was awake and fell to sleep on her own (hurray!!), however she would wake up a few minutes later I guess as she passed through the first phase, and then she nodded back off, then woke up with the gentle wah, wah thing and nodded off, but then after a bit she woke up screaming, and the shhhing didnt seem to help, although i didnt do it very long? So she would go down on her own and fall asleep which is a big step in my eyes, as I was thinking even that wasnt possible. Thats why I asked whether we might be better for one night getting her used to sleeping without feeding, or whether just to take the plunge?
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My MIL is coming round this evening apparently how do I stop myself from throttling her if she says anything?
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going to sleep on her own is a huge step!! tell your wife (and yourself) to be proud that you are doing a great job. i wasn't feeding to sleep and my dd2 always was in her own bed, but we still had enormous problems the first 8 weeks (and only slightly better for the next 2 months afetr that) as she was spirited and we could not get her to sleep :cry: I ended up with PPD so i think it os important as Kate mentioned that your wife feel supported and that she is not failing (i even stopped breastfeeding at 3 mo thinking something must be wrong with my supply as she did not seem satisfied - i assumed it was me and had lost all confidence at that point. it is important that your wife (and you) feel empowered and get to know what Phoebe needs - it takes a lot of effort to stop and listen and observe her but it will get easier over time.
as far as MIL - 2 ideas come to mind - 1) set up a phrase you and karen can say if you need to get away from MIL or rescue the other person and 2) tell yourself to take deep breaths and be thankful that she is a visitor and not living with you - amazingly you can agree with her/nod/"oh really" etc for the duration of the visit and then carry on exactly as planned - she does not feel hurt and you do not have to take anything she says on board if it goes against what you are thinking.
although your parents remember what it was like because your brother was a late addition, most grandparents only remember their "angels" who slept through the night easily and napped in the middle of a booming marching band (that one came from my own grandmother :roll: ) but i can guarantee you they were just as clueless when they got their bundles of joy home! i am a 2nd time mom and found it harder this time for so many reasons, but mostly because olivia was totally diffeent than alex and almost all my knowledge became useless but everyone expects 2nd time moms to know what they are doing...
keep up the good work you will do great!
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Thanks for the ideas with the MIL, she means well Im sure but I cant guarantee she will walk out of the house :D
Both me and my brother were awful babies until we were about 2, so I guess some of this is payback!! I was awake every two hours to be fed, and wouldnt sleep (and still only sleep 5 hours now), my grandma told my Dad my brother was his payback so its obviously a genetic thing lol..
I tried to encourage her after her bad day yesterday , and said that I didnt think I would have coped as well as she did, and that she should be happy about how she handled a really bad day, and we had a good hug and stuff, hopefully we can get Phoebe more used to sleeping tonight without Mummy feeding her, and I will try to get her down to sleep.
A quick question though - If we try getting her to sleep on her own and she is up and down like last night, and we put in a 3 hr EASY, then 2 hours after she has been fed she will be due to be woken up, if it has taken an hour to get her off what do we do?
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Health visitor has just left our house she said:
1) Its ok to co sleep as long as you protect baby with pillows, etc :?
2) Its fine that she doesnt sleep much during the day.. :shock:
3) My wife should put in her in the cot while she has a shower, even if she is crying. :shock:
4) It might be that she just likes being held all the time, all babies are different :shock:
So now my wife is confused, and Im not sure how things are going to go tonight... oh well... :(
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My wife has decided that she likes the ideas suggested by the health visitor, I dont want to argue the point so I guess Id better support and hope we can sort the problems out later. (Also suggested letting her cry to sleep)
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Simon,
I'm sorry to hear that your wife is choosing to follow the HV advice & that it obviously goes against your better judgement. I think you are right you need to support her in it, but if you believe in BW don't give up on it but guide her to an understanding that leaving a a baby to cry is not really best. Unfortunately many health professionals still believe in the "classic" Victorian" Era methods as they will always work EVENTUALLY...I mean a baby has to be exhausted enough to sleep sometime, that doesn't mean it is best for the baby :cry:
We are all here to support you, but at the end of the day the HV is the face your wife sees & we BW's are only people she gets second hand.
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what should i do when, as will probably happen in the next week, my wife phones me at work to say she hasnt slept all day, and she is sobbing down the phone? Do I say stick with the hv advice? :?
Im also worried that sooner or later our relationship is going to break, as i am only getting about 4-5 hours sleep a day, but this is broken, when i used to sleep 5 hours a day it was solid 5 hours which was enough. :(
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A quick question though - If we try getting her to sleep on her own and she is up and down like last night, and we put in a 3 hr EASY, then 2 hours after she has been fed she will be due to be woken up, if it has taken an hour to get her off what do we do?
you have 2 ways of going and i think kate will have an opinion on this one:
let her finish a sleep cycle (they are roughly 40-45 min) so if she has been asleep 1hr and is "due a feed" let her go another 1/2 hr so she has slept 2 full cycles
OR - wake her so that she is feeding enough in the day for the calories and the BF supply stimulation.
for me it would depend on how the day was going - if she has not napped well in the morning and then she successfully transitions beyond 1 sleep cycle i would personally let her get the naptime in as it will reduce the chances of her being overtired for the next cycle (and it gives more "y" time to gan the strength to carry on...)
about the HV - personally i disagree with what she says and i woudl not encourage it, but i do not have to deal with the regualr visits from the HV and your wife will :wink: and i know that there are mixed reports on them (i assume you are in UK) so think your wife needs to understand that what they say is not gospel and can be outdated info. Babies definitely need to nap during the day - this daytime sleep gets them rested enough to have good quality overnight sleep (sleep begets sleep) so i strongly go against the HV 2nd point. the body needs to rest and also brain development / neuron connectios take place during sleep...
if you want to get on track with BW we will help you and Karen as much as we can - why don't we break it down a little and work on 1 or 2 things that Karen woudl be comfortable with...
i re-read the other posts in the thread and was wonderig about the length of time Phoebe spends on a feed - is she actively nursing for an hour ?? if the fact that she feeds so long leaves little time to get her changed and to bed before she is overtired i would work on ending the feed when she is no longer actively feeding - you can tell when she is actually drinking and swallowing vs. sucking for comfort and not swallowing anything.
if you want to give Karen a bit to read for encouragement about getting a spirited non-napper on a routine you can share my story which is at the beginning of the "support group for moms of spirited babies" thread. it was a steady (but slow) path of improvement once i was able to get olivia down for naps before she was overtired.
also - do you have the first BW book? there is some great info in there that i can direct you to - i think it is important to have the first book to implement EASY and get to know Phoebe's cues and why things happen...
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I have read the first book, but Karen has read the first chapters, she says she just doesnt get the time to read it, which I guess is sort of a perpetuating cycle.
Thanks for the advice and if/when Karen wants to try something else other than what the HV advises then we will have to sort it then.
Karen also said she is not happy with Phoebe going to sleep in her swaddle as "she might rollover during her sleep, and then she cant get back, where as with the sleep bag her arms are out", to be honest I dont want to argue about it, I know that Phoebe might suffer from some of these things but its not me who is at home all day with her, so its easy for me to say. The BW methods can only work if Karen decides she wants to use them.
Yesterday Phoebe had a better day (maybe because she was so knackered), and slept for 4 hours during the day (on Karen tho), but didnt sleep at all from 5-9pm, therefore I think Karen is hoping that Phoebe will sort herself out.
I think the issue maybe that she felt such a failure the other day, that when the HV came and told her she was doing everything right and nothing needed changing other than her attitude to the baby, this made her feel better (which is good). However the HV then used this to suggest that Karens attitude to the crying needed to change and the baby wouldnt suffer from being allowed to cry, either whilst Karen was doing other things (such as showering, etc), or whilst going to sleep (which is secondary reinforced by her mother who "let her and her sister cry to sleep").
At the moment Im confused about what to do, part of me knows by carrying on as is, things probably wont get better, and if we allow her to cry to sleep/cry whilst doing other things we are going to create bigger problems later.
To answer your questions anyway:
Yes she will feed for 45 mins-1hr then we will wind her (as well as between if she gets fidgety), then she will sit with one of as staring/smiling/cooing at the bannister or radiator usually :), then she gets grumpy and Karen takes her back and feeds to sleep, so we know what is feeding and what is comfort. Obviously this means that Karen cannot move as then as she passes through her sleep periods she realises mummy isnt their and wakes up. But the HV told her this is OK.
I actually agree with the HV in some ways in that if those methods work for you thats fine (in the same way Tracey said it), but my issue was that the HV hasnt picked up on the fact that it doesnt work for her, especially on the bad days. It was more annoying because before the HV turned up, we had decided to make the change, and I was booking a holiday to help with the first day.
Again thanks for the advice, I will have to try and work with this for now and hope I can avoid too many problems.
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good luck - i understand where you are coming from - and i also understand that the HV telling her everything is OK undermined where you were headed. when/if you want to try something different later we will be here for you - feel free to send me a PM and we can work on some things that can help you.
i know you and Karen are both tired and stressed out - try to remember that you need to stick together and get through this...try to focus on any positive developments and small gains you make - as Karen's confidence grows she will be able to trust her instinct (instead of hearing the HV or her mother's voices in her head)
Please keep an eye on Karen for any signs of PPD - there is some good info available on that board (i am a moderator there so again, feel free to PM me if needed)
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Simon, Deb has given great info & we both have had our share of difficulties getting babies to sleep & I know I can speak for us both, that we can walk you through this.
what should i do when, as will probably happen in the next week, my wife phones me at work to say she hasnt slept all day, and she is sobbing down the phone? Do I say stick with the hv advice? :?
Im also worried that sooner or later our relationship is going to break, as i am only getting about 4-5 hours sleep a day, but this is broken, when i used to sleep 5 hours a day it was solid 5 hours which was enough. :(
I would have to say you as the breadwinner, need to draw a line at the point where your needs come into play so if your heart says that BW is the better way to go then you need her to understand that is how you feel. You have needs & I think as you need to go to work each day you might need to look after your sleep needs a little more.
Now I have to agree the HV advice - well it sucks... babies need to sleep & feed & fill nappies in their first weeks of life...babies that are awake for long periods and upset are either sick or over tired... end of story...an over tired baby makes for a VERY UNHAPPY Family - Trust me I have been where you are & it can only get worse. Yes she wants to be held, because she feels comforted & we all want to be comforted when we are overtired. On the rare occasion my ds#2 is overtired (bless him) he always wants to be held & my first who spent about 6 weeks sleeping next to no time always wanted to be held & would screem the house down the moment he was put down, when his sleep issues were dealt with he was happy on the floor for quite long periods of time
I do agree baby sleeping in your bed is ok BUT only if both people agree & maybe if your wife wants that, you amybe need to consider sleeping somewhere else to get the sleep you need????
I have to support Deb in that when Phoebe feeds if her sucking slows down your wife should stop the feed... she is sucking for comfort & to get to sleep & that will add to the cycle.
One thing I have suggested with other people is to sort of roll play a situation...eg with a partner suggesting Cry it out & one partner being against... when the pro CIO partner asks for help the other partner ignores, ignores etc... when asked why they are ignoring... they would reply...just showing you what it would feel like if we ignored the babies crys.
So if all this was me - well - I think I'd make it clear I was not comfortable with the HV advice & while I would be willing to support her to a point if things havn't improved in x amount of time, then I am not able to support anylonger & that we need to consider the methods I previously proposed.
HTH
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At what stage are some of these things going to become huge problems, that are impossible/difficult to reverse?
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Nothing really is impossible to reverse, but the longer it goes on the harder it is & the more likely you are to "accept" certain things, as the effort needed to change them is just beyond you from the state of exhaustion you are in... which for me is my 2 yo hardly ever sleeping through the night until about 2 months ago. Yes I had a newborn waking 2-4 times & a 22mo waking 2-4 times & had had about 1/2 dozen unbroken nights sleep in 2 years
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:shock: :shock: :shock:
2 years
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ok Kate now you have probably gone and caused a man to have a heart attack :lol:
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It does sound worse than it is... I mostly got at least 4-5 hours sleep in one go & wakeups were mostly under 2mins & for me a full night sleep is about 9-10 hours, also if the truth be told there were lots of extenuating circumstances early in my ds#1 life & I didn't do BW & ds has a dummy addiction too that I never could get rid of & then I got pregant again so I just lived with it :? ... but the point is if you get things going well early the effort is less than later & when you have a good routine & things go a bit pear shaped you have something to fall back on... so the longer you leave the harder it gets
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OK Im still here... :D
I guess I will just have to try and help influence where I can, I suppose I can say that I dont think its my way of doing it, and maybe I can try and implement some bits where possible.
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Hi there
Firstly can I say what a wonderfully supportive father you're being - my DH mainly leaves me to it (but I'm a control freak so happier that way!).
Health Visitors only seem to dish out standard old-fashioned advice - whenever my sister has asked for help with her DS's sleeping they've suggested CIO. It seems to be the only thing they can suggest and none of mine seem to even have children of their own!
My DS, Zander, is 10 weeks old. For the first couple of weeks we tried to follow a 3 hour EASY routine but it was too soon so I just made sure I stuck to the sequence of events - EAS - and ignored the time. This involved firstly trying really hard to make sure he didn't fall asleep whilst feeding - there are some tips in the book on this but if stroking his back, head, cheek, talking to him etc. fail then try changing half way through or just placing the baby on the changing mat - it's cold so wakes them up! I'm so pleased Zander doesn't fall asleep whilst feeding, it really didn't take him long to understand that that wasn't the way! Secondly, activity was virtually non-existent - change of nappy, sitting on my lap for a chat or a little song and then he was yawning and tired. At this point I'd swaddle him, give him a dummy (wonderful in these first few weeks and this week he's started using it only to calm down and then spits it out so hopefully won't be a big issue to remove in a couple of months), hold him against me shielding his eyes, listen to five minutes of lullabys, say night night and put him down to sleep (usually breathing heavily and very sleepy by now). Even at 10 weeks old Zander still only stays awake about an hour - sometimes a little more and sometimes a little less but I think it's more important to try and see your baby's cues rather than stick to a timed schedule.
It's still very early for Phoebe and some of these things take a little while to sink in for them, but they know nothing when they're born and we have to teach them. Some people have using crying it out and it has worked for them but I don't want to teach my baby that if he cries I might or I might not respond to whatever he wants. Of course, to be able to get on with my life he's sometimes in his bed and not happy, say whilst I'm having a shower, but I'm there soon enough and not leaving him to cry for hours!
Good luck - you're both doing a great job and time flies during the first few weeks so before long you'll have forgotten how stressful this is at the moment!
Keep in touch
Kelly
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Its odd really before I heard of BW about a year ago, I was from the CIO camp, and believed they should cry otherwise you were spoiling them. It was Karen who introduced me to the BW TV program, and asked me to buy the books!
Unfortunately both of us are control freaks, so its a bit of a stand off with anything in our house, and I have to say it isnt much of a surprise that dd is somewhat spirited!
Interestingly we were watching the other UK kids program (cant remember its name with the dark haired psychologist), and the children on there were sleeping in their parents bed at 1 year old, 3 and 7, Karen turned and looked at me, she began to say how she didnt agree with it I think, then realised how it might sound with Phoebe in with us. Im sure she knows that what we are doing isnt helping, but Im not sure why she doesnt want to change anything at the moment. I think its this that I need to work out, and then I might be able to determine whats actually causing the resistance, and we can break down those barriers (maybe she is worried about something in the BW methods).
To be honest I darent suggest leaving the bed right now, as she might see it as a form of emotional blackmail, which it isnt, so I will give it a few weeks and see where we are, sooner or later Im going to end up sleeping on my desk :) . My wife has suggested going to bed earlier but the issue is not that I am not in my bed sleeping, its when I am in bed I cant sleep properly.
A couple of times I have slept on the sofa a couple of hours before going to bed (when karen and phoebe have gone to bed first), to get some deep sleep in.
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Just wanted to chime in again and say that I think it's wonderful that you are such a supportive husband and remind you to trust your instincts. All of the advice here is wonderful (I've benefited from these message boards myself), but both you and your wife need to trust your instincts. You guys are "in the moment" with Phoebe and are the best to determine what she needs, how she is comforted, when each of you need a sanity break, etc.
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Thanks for all the thoughts and tips.
OK here goes:
Wednesday/Thursday: Phoebe was acting like a textbook baby , awake and hour falling asleep for two all day, fell asleep at 10 woke up at 3:30 am and has only slept for about 2-3 since. She is really fussy, my wife is trying to feed her to sleep.
She has discussed tonight about maybe getting Phoebe used to sleeping on her own, but her suggestion is to feed to sleep, then gradually move Phoebe away (similar to how TH suggest in the last book using a pillow), I discussed this and suggested trying to get her away from feed to sleep first instead, but she says Phoebe wont goto sleep on her if she isnt feeding ( i was trying to compromise by just getting rid of one issue at a time), as she can smell milk.
What are peoples thoughts? At the moment I have suggested we try what Karen is suggesting, then if that doesnt work we can try something else. Hopefully this is her way of dealing with the fact that she knows something has to change (after Phoebe had a great day yesterday, I think she was kind of hoping that was the end of the bad days, but they have come back today :()
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firstly - yeah on the good day - tell Karen that unfortunately most things as they improve are 2 steps forward and 1 step back - we want it to happen fast but must celebrate each little victory and build on them (like dieting - you can't say "well i ate 2 pieces of cheesecake so i might as well blow off the whole diet and eat 2 more KWIM
as far as which issue to tackle first - i really think you shoudl stop the feed to sleep first as if she falls asleep nursing and then gets transfered to her own bed she will wake in many transitions anmd be like "how did i get here" and will call out to be nursed again to get back to sleep. and there will be very mnimal gains.
if you work to teach her to go to sleep on her own (can be in your bed for however long you want as long as yo both agree that is what you want - BW is not anti-co-sleeping, just as long as both parents are happy with the choice). anyway since she is used to falling asleep fully on the breast you woudl do a gradual change - let her nurse until drowsy but before she actually falls asleep take her off the breast and burp her gently and then lay her down to go to sleep - you stay with her and use pat/shh - she will be reassured because you are still there and you just keep shhing loudly and patting and you can tell her "everything is allright - time for sleep.." the first time it may take an hour (or 20 min) but then then next time it will be less because she will understand that you mean business and this is the new way - still staying close to keep her trusting you as she is used to sleeping ON you...
you just see how quickly she adjusts to it. with each passing feed you shoudl be able to put her down less and less drowsy until one day very soon you find you can feed her, have A time and then put her to bed without more nursing.
i think this is the better course instead of continuing the feed to sleep which would probably result in her waking soon after going to her own bed
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At 6 weeks i foudn it very difficult to get noah to feed wihout going to sleep. I decided to take all of our probems and just deal with one at a time. The feeding to sleep is a good place to start. I would take him off as soon as he fell asleep and put him down. he would wake, i would put him back on and so on. it meant feeding took a long time but once he ws satisfied i would rouse him just enough to get half an eye open - any kind of response and then put him down for a sleep. i put him down to sleep in the same way everytime. I didn't use shpat or anyting else as i decided it disturbed him nd i just let him fuss for a bit. obviously if he became hysterical i would pick him up and calm him but i let him cry a bit before leaping in there.
6 weeks is really young and things are all over hte place at this stage. Phoebe will settle down. you just need to be consistant. decide on a routine. not timed or anything, but what cues you will use to say sleep to her and do them everytime without fail. and accept that it will go wrong regularly for a while. Oh the other thing was i was paranoid about awake time, but in fact the more sleep he had during the day the better he was at night at this stage. he needed to be settled down after about an hour to an hour and a half awake. don't wait until she is crying to try and settle her, just look for the slighty glazed look, or the slow blink or the third yawn. try feeding as soon as she wakes in the day so taht she isn't hungry by the time she is tired.
just a few ideas. i hope things get better for you and that you find the key that works for you. :wink:
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my wife had a nail appt tonight so she fed phoebe until 5:45 and left (hesitantly),we played for a bit (and I took some photos), and at 6:15 she was looking tired so I took her to our room and ssh/pat her on my shoulder she fussed for 10 mins or so, then began dropping off, so i put her down she lasted 5 mins before crying hard, so I decided to take baby steps. I picked her up and got her back off again, so i let her sleep on me which she did for 45 mins and she woke up when my wife walked in. I got her back off pretty quick tho.
She then slept for another 3 hrs or so, my wife did seem a bit put out (she joked, but i could tell there was more to it), and said "She doesnt need me anymore", and looked sad that phoebe was fast asleep with me, I explained of course she did, just that she could do some stuff herself without being pinned to the sofa. This may explain the reticence to change. But she has got so much done in the three hours she seems to be happy.
She did ask if phoebe cried, well of course she moaned and whinged, and karen tried to look cross at me, but i said "she was tired, and grumpy, and needed to tell me, it wasnt like i let her cio, she knew daddy was there cuddling her", i think she was looking for another reason, bless her the trials of being a new mum, baby steps for us all!
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well last night we let her feed to sleep for her wake up morning feed, then this morning we needed to bath her, so after her bath we remembered there was some milk in a pot that dw had expressed, however whilst waiting for it phoebe decided she wanted to cuddle on my shoulder and with a minute or so of shh/pat she was nodding, so i gave her the two oz (we arent expressing much so every drop is precious, and we had defrosted), and recuddled her and she has gone back off, my wife has got more done, she did say again she felt redundant :cry: but trying to explain that fts isnt good for her either.
I feel terrible in some ways for breaking a bond, but happy my wife can now have a shower/do hair/etc and feel human
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from the wife's perspective... i never felt "redundant" so to speak, but always jealous & frustrated when dh could get them to calm down & i couldn't. still do :oops:
maybe keep reassuring her that phoebe absolutely still loves & adores her & needs her. also remind her how much better she feels after she showers. and remind her how you like to see her feeling happier & more human. and give her a hug.
just a thought :wink:
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you are doing so great.
please make sure Karen understands that this is only 1 part of Phoebe's development and such an early / sleepy stage - there is so MUCH more that she will need from her - over the next few months the fun begins and Phoebe wil look to her for love, nurturing, stimulation, showing her the world, etc - she will be her primary (not sole, Dad :wink:) guide in this world ona day-to-day basis . Right now it is important for you all that Karen gets a break too so she has the energy to take care of herself and Phoebe!
it is great that you recognize that this is part of what has probably been holding Karen back - but she and you are both doing awesome! andlike Jaime my Dh always had better luck with olivia and persnally i felt like a bit of a failure at times.
BTW - you are also right in how you differentiated the cries/whinges you were mentioning to Karen - it is totally normal to fuss and make lots of noise as they let go and try to sleep - especially spirited babies (they seem to need to do this more to relase the energy... before resting)
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Wow... the early days... I can really sympathise with you guys. I've only scratched the surface with the posts here, I haven't read all of them, but you three sound very much like us. We had a baby who seemed to detest sleeping in the early days and cried most of the time bc she was so exhausted and didn't know how to settle herself into sleep. I constantly fed her until I realised she wasn't hungry at all, just another tired sign. We were ALL exhausted. Luckily for your wife and I, we have really supportive husbands. But he had his freak out moments too!
I also remember when Tallulah had good days, I would think, yay! she's finally learning to sleep and things are only going to get better/easier from here!... Only to find she would snap straight back into having BAD days again. It felt like she was torturing me. You feel like you're doing everything you can for this little soul, so why on earth would they be so unhappy all the time??
If you or your wife would like to PM me, please do so. I know what it's like to feel that there's no end to it all. But it does get much easier, it just takes a while. I won't sugarcoat things and say "you just have to do this and your problems will be fixed". With sensitive little babies it takes a lot of time and patience.
HTH xxx
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Twice today I have got her to sleep without feeding, she has slept much longer today and I am sure this is a big part of it.
Phoebe actually seems to need something different during the day, as she will suckle on Karen for ages without sleeping, yet if picked up by me and pat/shhed she is asleep in 15 mins max. Phoebe seems to moan at first calms right down, and then just before she drops off whines for a 10 seconds.
Again thanks for the support and the ideas in getting Karen to understand that she shouldnt think of her not being any use, and she needs to save her energy.
I know people may disagree with this bit :? but I have suggested that she can if she feels it is better feed to sleep some of the time, but that the fact she now has another option surely is a good thing, and she seems to agree that having the option is a good thing. Hopefully she will see that Phoebe sometimes prefers to be fed to sleep (mainly at night for wakeup feed), and other times she does better with shhing.
Had another nightmare today when Karen went to the shops to pick up some lunch when phoebe had gone to sleep. Unfortunately they had closed the bypass for some reason, and diverted everyone, so a 30 min round trip turned into 1.5 hours, after 45 mins Phoebe woke up and screamed the house down for feeding, I only had 1 oz of breast milk in, so I had to phone Karen to find out where she was, and I met her halfway home, Karen was distraught that she had "abandoned" phoebe. :(
Thanks for all the encouragment
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I know people may disagree with this bit but I have suggested that she can if she feels it is better feed to sleep some of the time, but that the fact she now has another option surely is a good thing, and she seems to agree that having the option is a good thing
i hear you!! when olivia was smaller and we were still getting on track (took 4 months for us :evil: ) sometimes when she owudl not give in and go to sleep i woudk pray that she woudl fall asleeep during the feed and then pray she would stay asleep :roll: most of us have been there. you have made huge leaps and bounds in 1 week - that is awesome!! no one expects a child to go from FTS to independent sleep overnight - gradual is a good way to go and this way everyone is happier!
about the car trip - that too has happened to many of us - just remind her that it was circumstances beyond her control and she should not feel like she did anything wrong. another example from me - when alex was young (under 3 mo) Dh and i had been out and she was napping in the car so we parked somewhere nice to look at the view, when she woke crying i said "she can't be hungry she's not "due" for food for another hour" so we started home, but not in a rush... got home and when i looked at my EASY log book (my real brain) i saw she had actually been right on time - i just had baby brain. but my darling lo stoped her hngry cry after a few minutes and i guess she was just patient with me... No real harm done - she had to wait for her meal, but i did not do it intentionally and Dh made me forgive myself even when i did it another time... :oops:
everyone woudl be able to share stories like these - we are all human and struggling thorugh this together!!
edited to add:
Hopefully she will see that Phoebe sometimes prefers to be fed to sleep (mainly at night for wakeup feed),
if you mean feeds after bedtime feed (ie between 8pm - early morning) then this is when you do feed to sleep without wporrying about it - you want minimal disturbance in the night - just feed, if she falls asleep, burp lightly and put back to bed - :D as far as i am aware most people only worry about FTS for daytime feeds
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Wow! I was excited to read your posts, as we're having similar sleeping issues with our six week old. One thing I'm counting on, I read in Dr. Weissbluth's Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child. An infant's brain isn't completely neurologically developed, and don't produce melatonin to calm themselves down. IN other words, tell your wife it isn't her fault if Phoebe screams and can't fall asleep! And often, he writes, agitated sleeplessness and crying reach a peak at - yes, six weeks, and around three months, it is physiologically easier for a baby to sleep.
Obviously, following all the great advice here will prevent bad habits by that time, but to a certain extent, she should "sort herself out."
Also, another word to your wife - Phoebe smells milk on her, so of course she settles better on you. My husband also has much better luck putting the baby to bed, as he had with our older DS. Some really awful days, I made him stay home just to put him down for his nap!
So glad to see your progress, and ours. It got worse and worse for us too until the six week mark and now it seems a little better - naps this morning!! :D
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Just wanted to add my two cents! My hubby also seems to have the magic touch with our LO. When she's especially unsettled, he's the only thing that can calm her. She just roots and roots all over me and can't stop (and I haven't breastfed her in over 2 weeks).
I used to feel really bad about it (what's wrong with me?!?), but I quickly came to the conclusion that I'm glad she gets settled and it's not through a method like CIO.
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Just a quick update:
Saturday Phoebe only fed to sleep at night and had lots of good sleep.
Sunday - Shhh/pat to sleep in the morning, so we went out for lunch (yes we actually left the house :lol: ), Put phoebe in her car seat asleep and she didnt wake up for 4 and half hours, we actually felt like a couple for the first time in 7 weeks.
She woke up and unfortunately after she started to nod off I nearly collapsed due to a mixture of heat and a thick jumper (its blooming freezin right now!) in the house, so had to put her down which got phoebe so cross :(.
Sunday night fed to sleep.
Monday - I dont think my wife is ver confident in doing it herself.
I came home and she had slept well even tho it was FTS, so when I cam home I tried to shhh/pat but phoebe was really grumpy and wouldnt go, so bathed her/fed her and off she went, daddy and girl slept for three and a half hours :wink:
She has gone to bed with mummy now..
We are making small steps, and hopefully dw will feel better about the fussing/moaning having seen me handle it. Phoebe seems to have got use to it, and twice has cuddled herself into my chest when I have picked her up and she is tired, seems she knows what to expect :)
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Ohhh quick question any advice on a lo with snuffles? she has had them for a week and hv/dr cant offer anything? She sounds so bad at night and sometimes wakes herself at night
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The only thing you can do is put saline drops, or breast milk in her nose.
It won't prevent her from waking up though, just take care of it when she does.
BTW, if she screams when she's very snuffly, it's probably because when a baby cries, it's the only time she can breathe through her mouth. I appreciated knowing this when my baby had a cold and was crying. I didn't feel so bad - just knew that was the way he could breathe easier.
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you can also elevate her mattress a bit at one end (put a blanket underneath) and run a humidifier. that can help the stuff loosen up too.
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well another week on , and she is still snuffly, although dr has explained its because she has "small" airways, therefore they block easily.
She had her 8 week jabs and screamed like a good'un :(
She slept in her car seat for 2 hours, woke up fed, nodded off, woke up v smiley (im more in love with her than ever!!), and then decided she wanted daddy snuggles (she puts her head in my shoulder, grips my shirt tight , and nodded off with little shh/pat, now seems to reaaly like , but not sure if this is not a prop better than mommies booby tho...
havent yet gone to put down on her own:( (bad daddy)
rolled over back to front on friday!!! she obviously is bored of us wants to go, and pulls her knees in when on her front!!
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oh and hv is now sending leaflets on controlled crying what the hell is that?
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oh and hv is now sending leaflets on controlled crying what the hell is that?
I think that is a fairly standard response... with my ds#1 (before I found BW) I was given info on methods of "age appropriate CC" to use for my sleep problems. The thing is it does work, because babies eventually give up exhausted & so hv know that it will provide people with a solution.
The fact that it doesn't really benefit the baby, (except they sleep) & many parents don't like the method is another thing, they just "have to be able to give you something to help you as that is their job & BW type techniques are just a bit to "baby specific" KWIM.
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I guess it was actually a question I have never heard of controlled crying is that the Ferber thing?
Anyway things are gradually changing for other reasons it seems, Phoebe now still occasionally suckles to sleep mainly at night, and is still sleeping with us, but during the day my wife has stopped feeding to sleep for a variety of reasons.
Mainly Phoebe seems to get cross and tired and will start pulling and biting on Karens booby (OUCH!!), she also fidgets and moans, and scratches (if no mitts on).
Karen has found the way to stop this is not to feed her too long, but was fine when I was at home as I could pick her up and she would drop straight off on me. But Karen has never really done the shhh/pat method, mainly I think cause she still doesnt like to hear her moan, however she has found she can do it, especially if she catches her early then Phoebe doesnt complain at all, and actually seems to prefer sleeping that way, as she will sleep for longer.
This means we are so much closer to putting her down! Hopefully over the next couple of weeks we are going to work on getting her to sleep on her own!
Thanks for the advice!
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you are so welcome - you and Karen are doing great! i think one of the hardest transitions is from nursing to sleep to independent sleep so a big pat on the back for taking it one step at a time and being realistic that you don't need to go from A to Z in a day KWIM, but continuing to move forward at a pace that works for all of you - this way the effects should be long lasting! :D
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Controlled crying means letting bub cry for short periods of time (around 5-10 mins or before the crying becomes screaming), then going back in and patting/shushing, reassuring, stroking, etc which all let baby know that you're still around and you're there for him/her.
I'm all for the BW teaching-to-sleep methods and when they work it must be fantastic, but for us they didn't so we had to resort to controlled crying when Tallulah was 6 months. We actually tried CC at 4 months and it DID work then - but only for a week. I wouldn't recommend trying CC til bub is 6 months, but lots do it before with good results. I feel HUGELY thankful that I have such a good sleeper today. Before we committed to CC Tallulah was usually fed to sleep, other times rocked, dummy, anything... And once she was finally asleep she'd wake up again and again. :cry:
To quote a well-known Australian early-childhood health professional (Robin Barker)...
"One of the problems faced by parents who would like to change things is the fear that control crying is harmful"...
"In the context of a healthy baby in a loving home I believe, based on my professional experience, that if there were negative consequences due solely to control crying they would be short term"
In other words, if Tallulah suffered because we left her to cry for short periods, she is certainly over it now! She's a very happy (albeit touchy, but she's been touchy since day dot) bright and talkative well-adjusted toddler, who sleeps 11 hours at night and 2-3hrs during the day without arguments.
Anyway, just had to have my purge! I know a lot of people here are against CC so I just wanted to have my say in the argument :wink: However I also realise it's not for every parent/child and I would not encourage anyone to try it without doing their homework first and making sure they definitely want to follow through.