Wake to sleep with an older baby?

[KellyC]

Hi

Zander is now 7.5 months and probably still has 40 minute naps 50% of the time.  I find it extremely frustrating after all these months that he'll still wake at the 40 minute point yet I know he's perfectly capable of getting past it as he often does.  So far I've believed that the only way of getting him to take a long nap is to get the length of the A time exactly right but this means I'm constantly playing with our EASY routine to try and find something that works - and I'm one of those mummies who gets very down if they feel out of control, a bit obsessive if I'm honest!  I'm now wondering whether the A times may not be the problem but that his clock is stuck as he's been so used to waking at the 40 minute mark for such a long time.  Has anybody had success with WTS with an older baby?  I'm really scared of waking him when I go in (so would probably do it with the am nap to begin with since I'm quite happy for him to have a short am nap so long as the pm nap is good!).  I was thinking of disrupting his sleep cycle after 30 minutes rather than trying to support him through the transition as I'm pretty sure the second option would wake him once he sensed I was there.

Thanks
Kelly x

[LucyA]

Hi Kelly, I'm going to piggy back on this thread if you don't mind, because as you know, I have similar problems...

I have tried doing wts a couple of times recently, and have woken Callum up  I think I have been doing it at the wrong time, I think Callum has already been back into light sleep (or still in light sleep?) and that has been the problem. Sorry, not much help to you.

[KellyC]

Hi Lucy

That's why I stopped trying to WTS when he was younger, because he started sleeping really lightly and I'd always wake him up when I went in    I've had to wake him up a couple of times lately to go out and I've struggled - even with the lights on, the cat meowing and me walking around his room he's stayed asleep so I guess it's all in the timing!

Kelly x

[*Natasha*]

Hi Kelly,

Sorry you are still having problems with short naps aren't they a pain 
Anyway i have spend the last week or so playing around with Catherine's awake time as she has gone to having an awake time of 2.5 and 3 hrs to awake time of 3.15-3.5hrs it is crazy. She also just got her first tooth the other day  which has been effecting her naps during the day. Anyway i use to wake her after 1.5hrs in the AM but found her PM nap was still shorter so after some advice i have decided to let her AM nap go which has been 2hrs at the moment and she will sleep 1-1.15hrs in the PM. She is just one of these babies that prefers a longer AM nap. Anyway i think i have finally figured out a good routine for her that works well. As for wake to sleep i was using this with Catherine around 6months when she wouldn't sleep past 45mins for her PM nap worked a treat so i don't think it is to late at Zanders age.
Anyway he is her routine i think we have finally settled on:

6.30am - Wake play talk in crib
7am - Get up change bum cuddles with Mum and Dad
7.30am - Breakfast Muesli or Porriage with fruit with 2ozs of milk in a cup
8.30am - Bottle 6.5ozs
10am - Sleep 1.5-2hrs
12.30pm - Lunch Yoghurt and 2ozs of milk in a cup
1.30pm - Bottle 5ozs
2.45pm - Sleep 1-1.5hrs
Sometimes a snack here
5.30pm - Dinner usually whatever we are having always at least 3 vege and meat
6.15pm - Bath, Bottle 7-8ozs
7.15pm - Bed for the night

What is Zanders current awake time?

[KellyC]

Thanks for your replies.  I guess WTS is worth a shot so I'll have a go today and let you know how we get on!

Natasha, thanks for your routine.  I'm still hoping that one day we'll have a routine that lasts for more than 2 or 3 days before it changes again - I know they change often but a few weeks would definitely be better!  Zander's awake time is around the 3 hour mark.  This morning he woke at 5.45 with his arm stuck between the cot bars (he's just moved from his hammock this week) so I moved him and he went straight back to sleep but woke at 6 and he sounded hungry so I fed him and he took a half hour feed (definitely hungry!).  I hoped he'd go back to sleep but there was no chance so we started our day and I wasn't sure when he'd want his first nap (I didn't want it to be too early and for him to have had his 2 naps by lunchtime!) so I watched for his sleepy cues.  He's just gone to sleep now at 9am (so 3 hours A) but I had to help him go to sleep.  If I wait for his sleepy signs then it's too late which is why it would be fab to figure out a routine which works for him!

Oh well, off to psyche myself up for WTS.  I think I'll shimmy into the room on my stomach comando style!

Kelly x

[*Natasha*]

LOL 
Good luck keep us posted.
I remember the first time i did W2S i ran so fast out her room quiet funny it is amazing the things we do to get our babies to sleep.
I know what you mean it feels like i just get Catherine's routine right and she goes and changes things.
I think our transition to 1 nap is going to be early around 12 months  another thing to get use to.

[KellyC]

... and Zander's lying on the floor next to me after a 45 minute sleep!  I couldn't get him to stir actually.  I went in and he had his back to me so I stroked his head for a bit, then his back, then I moved his lovie and by this time 5 minutes had passed and he was starting to come into the light sleep phase by himself.  I led on the floor and listened to his breathing quickening etc. and 30 seconds after I left the room he woke up.  Any tips on how to get them to stir enough to transition into the next cycle?

Kelly x

[*Natasha*]

What time did you go in? I tried 30mins but Catherine woke after that so i found 25mins the go for us. I just touched Catherine's hand and moved it a bit. Sounds like you went in to late 

[KellyC]

Could be, although he was still in quite a deep sleep at that point.  Do you mean you moved your hand or hers?!

Kelly x

[KellyC]

Stacy, are there any posts I can look at regarding that 8 month old you were telling me about?

Zander just about managed a 3 hour A time and I've just been in after 25 minutes to try WTS.  He was holding his lovie so I slowly pulled it out of his hands and I think he moved a little - it's hard to tell but I didn't want to do any more only to wake him up.  A few moments later his breathing seemed to change but I guess it does that all the time.  When you guys do WTS is it really obvious when your baby stirs?

Oh dear, he just screamed out!  Off to do PU/PD then I guess.  I think I must have woken him as it's only been 30 minutes 

Kelly x

[KellyC]

Well it only took a few seconds to get him back to sleep after he woke at 30 minutes and he slept for 1.5 hours which wasn't too bad but we now have a very long afternoon ahead of us!  I'll persist and see what happens.  Thanks for your help.

Kelly x

[*Natasha*]

Yes Catherine moves (i move her hand) and the first time i did it she briefly opened her eyes (that is when i ran out of their).
That is great you were able to get him back to sleep after waking. The second time i did W2S i did it at the 30min mark and it was too late and she woke up so i used Shh/Patt to get her back again and it only took 5mins.
Good luck 

[Meg's Mom]

Hi Catherine,
I have had success w/ WTS many times in our nap struggles - at 7mos, 13-14mos and recently at 19mos.  When doing it this month she was stuck at 1.30mark and I wanted her to do 2hrs (i can totally relate to being obsessive about naps, control, EASY...oh yessss ;-)).

In the past i have moved her lovely if holding it, so i didn't have to touch her.  I try to stay away from the face and back w/ my touch.  I think she would sense that more.  This month i used her foot, it is usually bent, so gently pull it straight until her breathing changes or she moves her head or pulls her leg back away from again.

I hope that helps, but yes...i have had success w/ W2S w/ an older baby.  Like Stacy said, you may need to push that A time to a bit overtired and combine this to get her un-stuck.  Also the timing i would recommend would be be between 20-35min.

Good Luck, HTH

[KellyC]

Thanks for your help again.

We just about made it to 7pm after he woke from his second nap at 2.15pm yesterday but needless to say he was overtired and he woke a few times during the evening.  I should probably have given him an early night but you know how you look at them playing and they seem perfectly happy and it's not until you try to put them to bed that they seem tired?!!

Zander's currently having his am nap and I went in after 25 minutes and moved his hand about a bit ... nothing.  So I moved the other hand about a bit and ... nothing.  So I moved his whole arm about a bit and he may have moved very slightly and his breathing pattern changed so I left it at that!  Funny I was worried about waking him up when actually I'm struggling to bring him out of his deep sleep - why oh why do I spend so much time telling people to be quiet because Zander's napping?!  It's now been 45 minutes but I think he may sleep on because I've just heard his breathing pattern change on the monitor and he does this when he's transitioning.  I wonder if that was his original 40 minutes or 20 minutes after I disturbed him though (if indeed I did disturb him!).  Oh boy, I think I read into things too much!

Oh hang on, he's coughing now - that will probably ruin everything!

I'll keep you updated, it would be the best thing ever if I could re-programme him not to have 40 minute naps!  I don't think it'll be this morning though as he's just waking up ...

Kelly x

[KellyC]

OK, time for an update and some more advice please!

This is our fifth day and I've tried wake to sleep for every nap and it's worked 2 or 3 times    The biggest problem I have is actually getting him to stir.  For example, I just went in after 25 minutes and moved his lovie out of his hand, then moved his hand and arm around, then moved his leg around and eventually he seemed to stir just a little bit (I wasn't sure whether it was enough) so I left it at that.  I walked out and 5 minutes later he woke up - this is even earlier than he'd usually wake and it took me half an hour to get him back to sleep (though that does mean we'll have our first day with 2 long naps!!).  This morning I did WTS and he had a long nap but I don't know if this would have happened anyway - he usually has one decent nap a day even without WTS.

I'm wondering whether I should go in even earlier, say after 20 minutes, because it's taking a long time for me to get him to stir.  Do you think if I start at 25 minutes and it takes 5 minutes it could be too late because by then he's starting to come into his lighter sleep and I'm actually bringing him out of it quicker than he would have done?

Also, any more tips on what to actually do to get him to stir would be great.

Thanks
Kelly x