Author Topic: tantrum yells and WI/WO (Read 2282 times)

brightside · « **on:** March 10, 2007, 12:39:38 pm »

If they are having a tantrum and not properly crying, what do you do if doing WI/WO. Do you still go in every set of counts or do you only go in if they are properly crying? Thanks

yaya · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2007, 12:40:48 pm »

WIsh i knew, will keep lurking here if you dont mind!

Layla · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2007, 22:45:14 pm »

What actually hapens. Does your lo have a tantrum as soon as you leave or starts crying and then it turns into a tantrum? I would say continue going in with every set of counts. Mine has tantrums at bedtime/naptime when she is extremely overtired. What does his day look like now? Has he adapted to 1 nap?

Layla

brightside · « **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2007, 13:27:36 pm »

Thanks Layla.

DS has just about got used to one nap and if we time it right, he sleeps quite well. This week though he has had a terrible cold so we have gone to him if he woke in the night and sat with him. He hasn't slept too well and has become more and more overtired throughout the week. He is much better now so I did WI/WO when he woke after just 40 mins from his nap. He definitely was overtired but I figured I might as well start some sleep training as I was going to do it that night anyway. Of course he wasn't very happy. in the end I just went to him every minute or so just so he knew I hadn't abandoned him. He calmed down after a while and went back to sleep after 1h20. He also woke in the night but didnt have a tantrum this time. Hoping for some decent sleep tonight.

yaya · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2007, 13:31:17 pm »

fingers crossed for u

Layla · « **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2007, 21:17:44 pm »

I hope so too. Let us know how the night goes.

Katet · « **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2007, 22:16:56 pm »

IMHO if they are overtired then they are crying for that reason I wouldn't call it a tantrum, rather a call for help & to be honest I think WI/WO may not be the best for an overtired toddler... if my toddler is overtired then I do what ever I need to help him relax (stroke hair, cuddle etc until calm... not always easy with a 3yo too.
I can't effectively sleep if I am angry or upset & overtired, so I don't expect my children to either so I'd say you should actually do a modified wi/wo & only leave when your lo is calmed down a bit.

yaya · « **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2007, 11:58:46 am »

Totally agree with pp

brightside · « **Reply #8 on:** March 12, 2007, 19:33:45 pm »

Trouble is Kate, its doing just that which has got me into this mess in the first place. I agree that when they are GOING to sleep, there is little point in doing WI/WO as it won't help at all but unfortunately DS often gets overtired despite all my best efforts tweaking this and that to the point of insanity. Transitioning to one nap as caused lots of overtiredness. I have always soothed DS back to sleep if he woke in the night or early from a nap but he now can't go back to sleep without me being there. He GOES to sleep independently but has never learnt to go BACK to sleep, hence WI/WO.

This was the first time in long time that I did WI/WO and so he was very likely to get cross and upset. I did wait until he was calm before leaving but going back in and out was what caused him to get so cross in the first place (one of the downfalls of WI/WO) and once he got into that state there was nothing I could do that would have calmed him down. I just had to keep going in until he had calmed down.

Katet · « **Reply #9 on:** March 12, 2007, 21:43:23 pm »

Well I can understand where you are coming from, but I don't think it is the best interests of a child who has fallen asleep independantly to then have another method to get them to sleep when they actually do... tbh is it about your lo needing the sleep or your needs... I spent many a day in the early days of transition sitting with my ds asleep in my arms as that was the only way he got longer sleep & also earlier bedtimes.
If you don't use wi/wo at the start of his naps it is going to get him irate when he wakes up... it is a cycle & it can take weeks for the 2-1 nap transition to settle & often if they wake & don't go back to sleep in 5mins it is better to get them up & have a super early bedtime or a catnap to tide over as the crying for 1hour to get a longer nap serves no-one least of all the chemicals floating around in their brain if you keep doing wi/wo every minute with a hysterical child, which is actually Controlled Crying if you leave them whey they are hysterical... I don't know if you realise CC is about the "emotions" not the time. Wi/wo should be about leaving an upset child who is calming & IMHO if it takes more than 15-20 exits with Wi/wo it is the wrong method.

Layla · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2007, 02:55:11 am »

You know I was just looking through previous posts of when Isabella was transitioning to 1 nap (which she finally did just before 16m). I too had concerns that she was going to become dependant on me/us at night and nap times. We used to attend to her at night and pat her or stay with her (dh used to play with her hair) until she would fall asleep. I agree that if they are overtired it is waaay harder for them to respond to sleep training. I personally never did wi/wo to extend naps. I used to leave her in the cot until the end of 1hr (so if she woke at 40mins, 20mins she would stay in cot) but she has always been fairly good in the sence that she doesn't cry when left in cot. If she would start crying thou, I used to pick her up and give her a super early bedtime (like 5.30). We did pu/pd or stayed with her during those times. It was much easier and less stressful thou to stay with her and once she caught up on sleep, she stopped needing us & would return back to sleep with a simple "its night time, back to sleep".

Something else that Kate mentioned and I always think this helps is to put them down earlier for the night. Isabella at the start of the transition was stuck on 11.30nap time and 6pm bedtime. She still slept until her usual 6-6.30am but I do clearly remember her having a really early bedtime. We eventually moved nap time to 12ish but not until a few months ago (together with bedtime to 7pm - asleep by 7.30pm)

hth
Layla

brightside · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2007, 05:53:13 am »

Kate: it is absolutely NOT about my own sleep needs-its ALL about his! If it was about mine I would sit with him and rock him to sleep so he went to sleep more quickly and never learnt to sleep on his own. And I HAVE done early bedtimes. He is often in bed at 6pm if he hasn't slept well in the day.

I also do NOT appreciate your suggestion that what I was doing was CC. I am a devoted BW fan and have done EVERYTHING as the 'book' says-to the point of paranoia about not leaving him for a second if he cries. I did NOT abandon him and only go to him at 5-10 minute intervals like CC suggests.The absolute MINIMUM time recommended in CC is 2 mins and I left him for no longer than 1 minute. I tried picking him up and stroking his head but he was arching his back so I kept doing the damn WI/WO which I was under the impression was the right method to do when doing sleep training.

I really appreciate the support and advice from this site but I find the contradictions very hard and confusing.

One message is NEVER become a prop and then the other message is BE a prop if they are overtired? Do WI/WO to teach independent sleep but not if they GO to sleep independently? What are we supposed to do then to teach them to go back to sleep? I have always tended to DS when he has been sick and done everything to make him comfortable but at 15 months with barely any full nights sleep, there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough. He has never learnt to go back to sleep on his own because I have been a prop. If WI/WO is not the method to do when getting rid of a prop then it needs to be made more clear. I guess I'll go back to being a prop then.

JoC · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2007, 09:29:36 am »

Hi Kath,
i too find some of the advice on different pages contradictory, I think it is because (going to state the obvious) that all our lo's are so different. My son too, goes mental when i do wi/wo, and i have followed the procedure in the BW book to the letter, and actually was given advice here to not go in quite so often, as he will calm down the less i go in, if that makes sese, i have left him for 40-50 seconds not 10-20, cos that does not work for him.
The reason they scream is that they are frustarted and i too can be in the room with my ds shusshing him and stroking him and he can be going as mad as if i were not in the room, he wants me to pick him up, give him his bottle, sleep with me etc etc.
I think it is unreasonable to think lo's are not going to cry with any method of sleep training, we re trying to make them do something they don't want to.
i think the best advice is for you to take your cues from your little one, regardless of what people advise you, its only their opinion. You know your lo best so do what you feel is right.

Jo x

rinajack · « **Reply #13 on:** March 13, 2007, 10:05:18 am »

Hmm, just though I would add a slightly different point of view.

I never extend naps. If she wakes, she gets up. If the nap is too short, I will fight her for another nap later. I think it is easier to do sleep training when they haven't been to sleep yet, than when they just woke - at this age they are standing there thinking "but I DID go to sleep, what is your problem LADY!".

We use WI/PD/WO. I do not count. I listen. If the yelling starts to get very agitated, or she starts to cry, or it simply goes on for ages (in which case I probably have to pick up her lovie etc off the floor

) I go back in and lay her down and say (the same every single time) "No Zara, it is time to go to sleep now". Then I instantly leave. If she starts to cry while I am leaving, I still leave, but return immediately. If she doesn't cry straight away, I go out, and I listen. We have this now to the point where it is unusual to have to go back in more than once.

I think at this age the absolute most important thing you can do is

1/ Give them a chance to work it out. But listen. You will soon learn when you are needed and when they are just letting off steam, or hoping you will stay but not really needing you. Note here, I always go straight in to a cry, but never straight in to a yell.
2/ Be consistant. Do it the same every time. My lo is teething, I know there is pain. But I give her panadol, then expect the same from her as always. Since I have taken this approach, this is the best we have done sleep wise while teething (still NW, but they were very very short).

HTH.

JoC · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2007, 10:26:25 am »

Yes I agree with pp, you have to be consistent in whatever you do, but it is hard reading all this stuff and coming up with a plan to suit your lo.
Jo

brightside · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2007, 18:14:17 pm »

Jo: thank you so much for you support

Rinajack: I think you are right that we have to LISTEN. We need to do what we feel is right in our gut for our LOs, regardless of the 'rules'.

I totally appreciate that there will be mixed advice because everyone's LO is different and most people are just telling what works for them. I gratefully receive the different strategies and pick what I think will work for us. Having said that I think I'm just going to do what I FEEL is right and stop trying to tweak this and that and getting anal about times and routines and x amount of hours sleep and props and everything else that has made me so obsessive and paranoid about everything.

JoC · « **Reply #16 on:** March 13, 2007, 18:30:06 pm »

Me too!
Never been so paranoid in all my life!
I am having sleep issues at the moment know how you are feeling.
Jox

Katet · « **Reply #17 on:** March 13, 2007, 19:43:41 pm »

Cath, I totally understand where you are at... I read your post before I took ds#1 to hospital with an asthma attack & so I have had time to think of a response... but Rinajack has said it all... wi/wo is not a method in tracey's books, it is one in an interview & it is basically for toddlers that "play" while parents try to do GW or pd. when you "time" the amount of time you leave you stop doing one of Tracey's golden rules "listen" & respond to their need... a child who takes over an hour to extend a sleep isn't about them being tired it is about them "feeling" they have slept & confusion... I've tried to extend naps & all it did was cause me upset.
I too many times (even with my 2nd) have become obsessed with tweeking routines... now all I do is "know" how much sleep he gets on average in 24hours & if he wakes at 7, has a 1.5 hour nap, he needs bed before 7.15pm... if he naps wakes early & naps less then earlier... he works best on 13.25hours sleep & so we roll with that... in the 2-1 nap switch we had many 5pm bedtimes & even now approaching 21mo, we actually still have 2naps on odd occasions as I have to fit mt 3yo needs too.

rinajack · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2007, 19:49:56 pm »

I agree definitely about routine tweaking. I dont' do it at all. I do stress over gross changes like 2-1 switch, and awful sleep at daycare, but at home, 15 mins here or there, or even 1/2 hr, to my DD makes absolutely no difference, so we just roll with it.

I do not have set nap times, I only go by cues. If nothing else, I am much more relaxed about how our day is going, and this probably rubs off on DD too.

It is hard to choose what you think will work for you. And it may even take some experimentation, but with everything, you will need to try it at least a week I think. And if you listen, you will soon know if it is effective for you or not.

brightside · « **Reply #19 on:** March 13, 2007, 20:20:51 pm »

Thank you for your replies. I feel better now and have decided to just go with the flow and go back to following my gut.

Kate: I hope your DS is ok after his asthma attack-scary.

News:

Author Topic: tantrum yells and WI/WO (Read 2282 times)