Possibly fear at bedtime?-update with another Q at end of thread

[Colesmom]

Hi girls, guess who?  sigh, yes it's me again

After 3 weeks of getting along okay with GW we are back to AP!  grrrrrr

I never did have a chance to leave the room.  I tried once and he FREAKED OUT.  I had to get him up, show him I set up a pillow in his room and only then did he lay back down.  Soon after, I was shocked when he went into his crib for a nap (first time in ages I didn't hold him to sleep...as I was working on nights before naps) and he asked me to hold his back...then that night...asked me to hold his back...and now I've been holding him on and off for 7 nights again.

Why I think it may be fear related...  We have a glass block window next to the dinner table where occasionally some pidgeons hang out because it's sheltered.  (ewwww gross I know but that's another story )  Every now and again he freaks out (and i mean shaking) in his chair and wants to sit in my lap and says "birdies, mama, birdies", even when they aren't there.  I say "oh, Cole, the birdies are sitting there for protection from the wind, Hi birdies, thank you for visiting with us" or something to that effect...but he still clings to me for dear life.
Also, we live in a town house and our neighbours children are constantly running up and down the stairs and the pounding can be quite loud.  even if it's playtime, cole will stop dead in his tracks and run and cling to me, saying neighbours mama, neighbours.  I say, Cole, I understand that is loud.  Does it frighten you?  and he says yes.  I explain that it's just the kids (neighbours) next door playing, not to be afraid, mom and daddy are here for you.  I try and demonstrate the noises they are making by being playful and running and making noise too.  still, it scares him.

so , think our bedtime woes may be two fold.  1) two year molars moving around (red bum, rash on chin, not   eating etc) AND 2) he is now fearful at night.  Tried getting him in his crib last night and was pretty successful until the kids started running around and he said "birdies mama birdies"   

I do have music playing which he LOVES.  In fact, he was babysat a couple of weeks ago, and he was pitching a fit in the crib because my SIL forgot the music.  The moment it was on he lay down and went to sleep.  Normally I have a humidifier too which bubbles but didn't have it on last night.  Perhaps that was it.

Anyway, aside from white noise, is there any way to make him less fearful?  Not sure if this is directly a sleep question...or activity...or general.  He is 23 months in a couple of days...when perhaps would he understand better and not be afraid.

thanks for any input.

[Layla]

You know we had something similar as well with noises & all. Try not to use words like scares, frightened, afraid. When Isabella heard the noise of hairdryer or electrical beater or thunderstorm, she used to look at me and say "scared" all becuase the 1st time she heard it, I put it in that sentence "Isabella, don't be scared" and that was all she remembered. I then replaced those words with "noise, loud" and even went as far as using words like "happy, laughing". So if the hairdryer is on, she says "scared" and I straight away say "hairdryer is happy because it is drying mummy's hair" or "the engine is happy because it is driving you & I around". "The thunderstorm is laughing and its a very loud laugh". Sounds silly but it honestly really helped!!!

Does he have a favourite soft toy or something he can take to bed with him as a sence of security? When he says "birdies...." maybe say something like "the birdies are playing and having so much fun. The mama birdie is feeding the baby birdie... you know make a story out of it so that everytime he sees them, he'll go back to the story".

[Erin M]

Traci, grrrr, stupid birds/neighbors.  Just when you were getting somewhere 

As far as the fear goes, I think you would acknowledge that he doesn't like the birds without contributing to the "drama" of the situation -- as in "Oh, you don't like the pigeons, do you?"  Is it just the birds outside your window or is it all birds?  Is there a way to help him see that they're one and the same? 

[Colesmom]

I&JS mom: great idea about staying more positive.  I wanted to acknowledge his feelings, but try and make light of the situation too.  You're right though about not using the word "scared".  If he hits I find he's better if I say "hugs and kisses only" as opposed to "no hitting"...so that he focusses on the positive.

Erin: To be honest, sometimes he says it when the birds aren't even there. Last night when we got home, he was in the best mood, then all of a sudden ran over with his arms up saying, birdies/neighbours (YES, both at the same time). I said, oh, are the boys playing next door...yay, so much fun, lets run like them...but he didn't like that. 

anyway, I will try and show him the birds outside more.  He doesn't get upset reading about birds or anything.

thanks!

[jayne]

{{hugs}}}}}

my first thought was can you cover the window so he doesnt see the birds??

I think validating his feelings is great..

and i too would stay away from the word scared.. it puts thougths into his head that he might not have had..

"I see those peskey birds are back" "yknow mommy doesnt like those birds so much anyway"-"lets find a solution together"-- "what do you think about  putting a curtain over the window so they can go to sleep"

can you tell the neighbors to stop running at a certain time?? seems a bit disrespectful to me --but if that is not an option try to do the same..validate

"i see those kids are being noisy again" "i can see that you dont like that" "how should we fix that?" "what would help you feel better"

Erin: To be honest, sometimes he says it when the birds aren't even there. Last night when we got home, he was in the best mood, then all of a sudden ran over with his arms up saying, birdies/neighbours (YES, both at the same time). I said, oh, are the boys playing next door...yay, so much fun, lets run like them...but he didn't like that.

i would respond with hugs and again validate.."they both really bother you dont they" --see if he gives you a feeling-- then offer to hold him "do you need some mommy hugs to feel better?"


i hope this helps you some.. we had a bird at our old house that used to fly into the window over and over and over again ... i had to put up a towel over the bar to keep it from doing it...

we called it "the dam bird"

[Colesmom]

thanks Jayne, great suggestions!

as for the neighbours, their one son is autistic...and i believe it's him running around.  i do feel bad for those boys, a teen, the 8 year old (or thereabouts), and a 25 month old...all cooped up in a townhouse with a backyard full of rocks and a dangerous pond which I call a mosquito trap.  they are NEVER outside   anyhoo, i won't go on about how much i hate my neighbours...needless to say, not sure I can ask them to be quiet.

[LeesMom]

Hi Traci,

How irritating about the birds and neighbor noises! It is so frustrating, especially when it's something you really can't control!
Just a question about something in your first post. You said that when your SIL was babysitting Cole, he laid down and went to sleep in his crib as soon as she turned his music on. I'm guessing this was for his nap? Did she have to hold his back or how did it go for her? Just wondering how he responded differently to her putting him to bed.

Jenny

[Colesmom]

Hey Jenny-He goes down swimmingly for her most times.  She was surprised he was putting up such a fuss, jumping up and down and thought "oh sheesh, i'll be here an hour" but then she said...shhhh cole, I can't hear the music ('cause it is just waves at the start and the music kicks in around 1.5 minutes) and he heard it, lay down, she covered him up and left.

so yes, i KNOW it has to do with his attachment to me.  so why do i doubt myself, thinking he's in pain, scared etc? 

I just don't trust my instincts when it comes to his cries.  Things go well for a while and then I think...well, he MUST need my help if he's acting up again.

I also read that if they can sleep somewhere other than their crib (eg, with you, at grandmas etc) then it is behavioural, not medical...which really rings true with me.  It's rare that he won't go right back to sleep after a sip of milk and we go on the couch.  Last night I tried keeping him in his crib...but just didn't have the stamina.  DH is working on an important assignment and can't lose sleep...but man, I am wiped and need to fix this soon!  It makes me feel like such a failure that I can't just DO IT ALREADY and be done with it!

And I feel for him...because he must think, "i can't do this by myself, i need mummy's help".  I know in my heart i need to bear down and get it done.

*sigh*  off to contemplate my dedication to this effort once again.

[Colesmom]

Hi there-just wanted to update.  when he said "birdies" last night I was at the sink with wet hands so didn't pick him up.  I said, Cole, are the birds visiting again today?  How nice.  Are they loud when they play?  and he said yes.  silly birdies, they are so loud when they play.  are they having fun?  "yes".  that's good.  are you loud when you play?  "yes".  Anyway, at one point he asked to go see the birdies.  There weren't at that window, so we went upstairs to a different window (lucky me, two windows with pidgeons) and he leaned forward to give them a kiss.  *phew*

also, got him down in his crib, asleep in 15 minutes with me just sitting in the room.

i think we have a habitual waking at 12:45am, so i'm going to try W2S for a few nights. can't hurt...i have to get up anyway.

ttfn and thanks for the help!

[mari]

Oh, I hope that you can get him through this.  Sometimes the slightest thing to us can be so big for them, especially if they are a little sensitive.  Lovely that he wanted to see the birds.

[Colesmom]

Hi, still having issues with the neighbours.  Haven't had a chance to meet the kids, and I don't think our neighbour is all that agreeable to it.

Cole does understand that it is the kids...I have put names to it now. I say, "that is just x, x, and x playing, I know they are loud, we are loud sometimes too"

last night we were eating and cole said "be quiet neighbours, trying to eat my dinner" and pointed at the wall.  quite cute really, but frustrating that it is still bothering him.

Anyway, I was going to try and forge on with GW last night, he would lay down eventually and then thud thud thud and he'd be up saying "need up mommy, neighbours". (this is with humidifier and music!)

My Q is this:  If he genuinely seems frightened by it (practically crawling out of crib), am I reinforcing the fear by taking him out and holding him to sleep.  Should I just reassure with my comforting phrase "you have woof woof, and blankie, time for sleep" or "you're safe in your bed, mommy and daddy are here".  I want him to know he's safe.

Please help! 

[frustratedmommy]

You don't want to dismiss his fears (which in his little mind are very real), so I can see your dilemma...It's a tough one.

I think reasurring him with his lovies is very important...I know you've said that the neighbours aren't very receptive to meeting, but can you make the appeal...for the sake of Cole...EVEN if they are a bit nasty...just appeal to the mother protecting child angle?

IF they are receptive...to plan something in the middle of the day...Meet them, put names and faces together...and if the neighbour children are old enough to understand (or the parents even)...get them to bang on the wall and say HI COLE it's so and so? I don't know...Just throwing out ideas here...

Is there any way to pat his back while he's standing in the crib...instead of holding him in your arms...Lean into the crib and hold him there? It's KILLER on the back but might reassure him enough without actually taking him out?

One more thing...Can you rearrange his room? Move the crib as far as possible....buffer that wall? hanging quilt or something? ACK I'm feeling you...it's so horrible when our babes are scared....
My DS is the same age and he has started to become "frightened" of things....but I don't have "the NEIGHBOURS" to contend with....Hugs to you both!

[Colesmom]

day by day-thanks for the reply.  his room is tiny.  dresser then crib then chair then change table then closet then door with about 4 sq feet in the middle    I like the idea of hanging something on the wall though to buffer the sound.  An alternative would be to move him to the other bedroom...so much for our hard work decorating 

you're right, i should appeal to the neighbours again.

As for stooping over the crib, I've been doing variations of Tracy's techniques for 2 years, so a sore back is just ongoing for me unfortunately

he gets upset by it when playing, eating dinner etc too.  I think I need to be for firm at that time as well, maybe saying "yes, cole, the neighbours are loud, but you are safe with mommy" give him a hug, but not pick him up?  he is always saying "neighbours, need up mommy". I think i am fueling his fear by picking him up.

[frustratedmommy]

hmmm possibly you are fueling the fear...that's something to look at, an exaggerated change in your behaviour?..and sorry but I would probably give up the beautiful decorating...you might have a few "new" issues by a new room, but then again maybe not...

and yup sore back sucks...but if it's nothing new  worth a shot?

And I think you've hit the nail on not picking him up during the day...(when playing, dinner etc). How we respond really does matter....But I think you already know that...Exaggerated distraction?

PS I used to live in a townhouse too! But didn't have kids then...used to drive our dog nuts when the neighbour kids were jacking around...Can't imagine how it must be to Cole...so yucky...

[mari]

Hi Traci,

I think that Day by Day has given you sound advice and like she says, you could be fuelling his fears (unintentionally of course  ) but sometimes worry too much that they will worry and then we can fuel fears (IYKWIM)  ie, you are concerned with the noise and perhaps he is picking up on that sometimes, I'm not saying that it's why he is scared, I am sure that his fear is very real and you have to reassure him, as you are, that he will be ok and he is safe with mummy, but perhaps when you hear them, you unknowingly react and he picks up on it.

I would try to ignore the noise, just carry on doing whatever you are doing and wait until he says something and then just say something like, 'yep, X and Y are playing again, come on Cole, lets carry on dancing, eating, bathing etc'  then in the night, try to do the same, when you hear them just try not to make any reaction and when he does just say, 'oh yes, x and y are playing again, shall we carry on with our story now' and hopefully he will turn his mind to whatever you are doing.

As for the sleep issues, that's a different story, but taking him out of the crib could be a big mistake, I do think that reassuring him in his crib is best.  I try not to get Alex out of her crib for any reason if I can help it.

Also, try and have a word with your neighbour again, I think that she is very thoughtless to allow her children to run up and down the stairs whether there is a young child living in the house or not.  If that is the kind of life she wants to allow her kids to live, then go buy a detatched in the country ! 

[Colesmom]

Hi girls,

Well, I used I&Jsmums words last night.  When he heard them around dinner i said "are x and x happy and playing again" and he agreed, "that's wonderful that they are so happy and playing and running around"  well, didn't say much else about it until bedtime.

And for the first time ever he actually told me he was tired!  egad, i was shocked.  He looked at me, rubbed his eyes and said, tired mama, about 3 minutes before we were going up to bedtime!

so bedtime routine went well, no mention of neighbours.  I have him repeat to me several times now between picking up at school and bedtime "after books, sleep time in my crib" and the first night a few nights ago i said "no rocking chair" so he adds that in by himself

so, after books I said "after books" and he said "in my crib, no rocking chair".  now he didn't go that willingly...but better than recent days.  I said i would stay next to him.  he was settling relatively well then the kids started up next door.  I simply said. "you have woof woof and it's time for sleep, you are safe here with woof woof".  he stood up a cried 3 separate times, i would lean over and reassure with the same words.  I did not take him out.  Eventually he went to sleep but I had to hold both hands.  One step at a time I guess.

mari-good idea of acknowleging...but kind of dismissing it/distracting him at the same time.  I will try that!

as for the neighbours...they are generally thoughtless, but that's another post (park on their lawn, didn't pay for their fence, have a huge pond of standing water in their backyard, a "rock garden" full of weeds in the front-surrounding their parked car) .  sheesh, I need to move!

[frustratedmommy]

Yup...you need to move!

But I'm so glad that you made a step forward. Good job and keep persisting...

Again my DS is almost the same age and his imagination has grown leaps and bounds in the last month....amazing what they can process!

HUGS and keep up the GREAT work!

~Marie