BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Naps => Topic started by: katie80 on January 05, 2015, 20:23:01 pm
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Charlie is the king of 30min naps. He's done them on and off for most of his life with a few decent stretches here and there. A month ago, I posted as I was getting 2x30min naps almost every day. I was encouraged to push the first A time and things got a bit better.
Until about two weeks ago, he was pretty consistently doing this...
WU
A 4hr
Nap 1 1hr
A 3.5hr
Nap 2 30min
A 2.5hr
BT
Not quite a 12hr day and he still had several NWs, but it was better than a lot of other things I'd tried.
The week of Christmas, I thought I was close to cracking it. I pushed to 4h15min A and was able to resettle a couple morning naps to get about a 1.5hr nap and then the CN. One day he went down at 4h30A, woke at 30min but couldn't resettle. I took him down to nurse him, but was the only one home as everyone else was at my parents' house, and he fell back to sleep nursing. He slept a total of 2-2.5hr. So, it seemed like we were getting close.
But, since then we've been back to rubbish. Nothing seems consistent and he's doing lots of 30min naps again. He's not interested in resettling, really, and just screams at me. >:( We've also had several NWs like this, so I'm slowing losing the will to try. He is cutting teeth atm (I think two on bottom and two on top are really close) and I think he may still be in a WW (I don't keep track very close). It seems like anything can throw him off, as he's never been a 'good' sleeper, but it's just so tiring and some days I don't know how we'll ever get to one, decent nap.
Here's what the last week looked like...
Mon 12/29
WU 7:20
N1 11:22-12:20
N2 3:50-4:20
BT 7
NW 10:30, 11:30 (fed), 3 (fed), 5 (fed) ::) ::), I know... I'm tired :-[
Tue 12/30
WU 7:10
N1 11:50-1:20 (in car)
N2 (tried for 5pm)
BT 6pm (nursed asleep til 6:30)
NW 10:30-12:30 (fed)
NW 5am (fed)
Wed 12/31
WU 7:10
N1 11:54-12:24, couldn't resettle (tried for 11:30, but had a hard time falling asleep)
N2 3:30-4pm
BT 6:30pm
NW 10:30, 12:15/30 (fed), 4:15 (fed) (awake on and off from 10:30-12:15)
Thur 1/1 (at friends' house for most of day)
WU 6:50am
N1 11:50-12:30 (in car)
N2 3:30-4 (in car)
BT 6:50pm (tried for 6:30)
NW 11:40 (fed), 3:30 (fed) 5:15
Fri 1/2
WU little before 7
N1 11:19-12:20
N2 4-4:30
BT 7:45 (home late from friends' for dinner)
WU almost every hr except 3,4am
Sat 1/3
WU little after 6am
N1 10:00-10:30 (couldn't resettle)
N2 tried for 1:45 (wouldn't go down); fell asleep nursing ~2:30 (slept 2:30-3:07)
BT 6ish pm
WU 9:30, 10:30, 1am (fed/meds), 3:15 (took 1hr+ to settle), 5:15am (fed)
Sun 1/4
WU 8am
N1 12:30-1pm (couldn't resettle)
N2 4:10-4:40pm
BT 7pm
NW 8pm, 11:15pm, 12:30 (fed), 3:30, 5:30
Mon 1/5
WU 7:30
N1 11:35-12:05
N2 (will likely be 3:30-4)
Where do we go from here?
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Just a few rambling thoughts Katie - beginning first of all with hugs. I hoped things were looking up for you guys so sorry to hear things are silly again.
I wonder if it might help establish some rhythm to your day if you actually started each day at the same time? As in, wake him up in the morning if he goes past a certain point. 7am? Just wondering if on the occasion he does very long nights, although they are broken, it basically robs any chance of a decent nap the next day? So for example, Sat 1/3 he had about 13h sleep overnight (not counting the shorter NWs). As an average he looks like he's getting about 13h sleep total in 24h so maybe there was just no chance you'd get a decent nap the next day whatever you tried. May be wrong, but as much as I know it's tempting to let them sleep in after a bad night, that could be continuing a bad cycle.
I also notice quite often you are doing a less than 12h day. I know that's because naps haven't been textbook but if he only needs say 13-13.5h per 24, you are only leaving him an hour or so of naptime if you expect a longer than 12h night. He can only sleep so much right?
Just a guess but his NWs could well be a mixture of OT, UT and the feeding thing.....it may be complete coincidence as I have been tweaking our routine a little but four days ago I managed to get B through the night with no feed at all (been working on it a little while). So no night feeds for four days now, and last night he STTN for the first time since October. Happy to share how we got rid of the feeds if that would help, didn't involve any 'cold turkey' :)
Also I know it was in the car but your best morning nap was after 4h40 A time......have you tried that at home?
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Thanks, Katherine. I appreciate your thoughts. I feel a bit like a broken record... every month or so posting the same thing! :P It's quite humbling, actually, I feel like I have no clue. :-\
I wonder if it might help establish some rhythm to your day if you actually started each day at the same time? As in, wake him up in the morning if he goes past a certain point. 7am?
Yes, you're right. It's selfish, really, as I'm so tired I just don't want to get up if I don't have to. But, now that C's back in school I need to be up anyway, so I can start waking him.
I also notice quite often you are doing a less than 12h day. I know that's because naps haven't been textbook but if he only needs say 13-13.5h per 24, you are only leaving him an hour or so of naptime if you expect a longer than 12h night. He can only sleep so much right?
Yes, right again. Probably selfish again too, but he's not always the happiest of campers after 2x30min naps, so it's easier for me to just put him down and then spend some quieter, more relaxed time with the other two and DH. :-[ Should I shoot for a 12hr day, regardless? If he does 30min in the morning, should I push the second nap a bit later so the A to bed isn't quite as long?
Yes, I'd love to hear how you got rid of your NW/NF. I read your thread at the beginning, but didn't feel I had any credible advice to offer and haven't had a chance to get back to it. I guess I have a bit of poor baby syndrome in thinking that I've never been able to get him on a good routine, so he's obviously OT/UT/anything else and I never have the determination to fully get rid of them. But, my exhaustion is having an effect on the whole family and it's getting really old. :(
Also I know it was in the car but your best morning nap was after 4h40 A time......have you tried that at home?
No. :-[ We were at an indoor playground that morning and I meant to leave earlier, but had to round up the other two. I've been trying 4h20-30, but haven't had the guts to go farther. He did do 4h45 one day as a result of long settling and it wasn't any different. It's like his little body just can't stay down at the 30min mark. :-\
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Oh Katie :-* selfish is NOT a word I would use about you. You really must be kinder to yourself, you are doing a great job of managing three kids with a challenging sleeper.
I totally get not wanting to get up if you don't have to. I let B sleep in this morning in fact after a silly NW and am already regretting it!
Yes I think I'd do a 12h day as long as there are two naps, though I appreciate the grumpiness is hard. And yes I think I'd push your second nap as late as possible after a short morning nap, may just make the evening more bearable or at least avoid a few early evening NWs.
The 30 minute wakes may be overall OT but based on what worked before and a sneaky suspicion that he is a bit LSN than your other two were ;) then I would bump his first A time right up and just give it a shot for a few days. J was already having one nap days here and there at Cs age.
Night feeds....well they are *almost* gone, I cheated at 5am today after he'd been awake for an hour and a half messing about ::) but basically a few weeks ago we had feeds about every 3-4h overnight. So I just decided one night that I would not feed him until at least the time I'd fed him the night before. That was it. Just working on the first feed. I figured if he was *really* hungry and I resettled he'd wake again 15 mins later and I'd feed then. Hunger for 15 mins didn't seem so bad to me and the NF would have moved on 15 mins. I think it was 23.15 the previous night so when he woke at 10.30pm ish I resettled. I think I resettled every 15 mins until he woke again at 23.15. As it was the same time I tried one last resettle....and he woke again at 3.30am! That gave me confidence that he didn't need the feed that had kept happening around 10/11pm. So then we ended up with a feed around 2am for a while and I essentially did the same thing. And tried once the feed had moved on not to go back to an earlier time. It wasn't a quick fix certainly but I think it gradually got his body used to not expecting calories overnight.
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Hi Katie, hugs firstly honey. And second Katherine, don't even dare to call yourself selfish. You are not!
Just supporting Katherine in her advice. Btw I am advising te same to Katherine, LOL:).
Re naps, I think you have a catnapper. And by that word I mean you have a child who is sleeping shortly but is really tired when going for a nap. But than he catnaps. F is the same you know? I have to push him to his boundaries so he sleeps 1,5h. So before you go for a routine I would decide what do you want. You can continue with two shorter naps until the moment he fights settling for the second one but to have decent night sleep I would push for at least 12h day. Let's make him average in terms of sleep needs. So not more than 1,5h daytime sleep and 12h day/night. So if he gets up at 6:30, let's count for 2 naps ie 1h and 30min as you are doing but make his day 12h. If he sleeps more and you don't want to wake - make day longer by the time his nap was longer. Or shorten second nap to 20min or even less.
Secondly - wake him, no matter what 12h after put down. Just to reset his clock that there is no sleep in and robbing from naps.
If your evenings are difficult (oh, I get it - believe me!!!) maybe try a sling before bath. Or maybe some walk in a pram? I don't know how your day looks like, but if F is tired we usually go for a walk at 5:30pm, do some errands, back at 6:15, feed at 6:30, bath 6:45, rest of the bottle at 6:55 and BT 7pm.
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Oh Katie :-* selfish is NOT a word I would use about you. You really must be kinder to yourself, you are doing a great job of managing three kids with a challenging sleeper.
Thank you... it's not very fun to be so tired and short-tempered, some days are not pretty! :(
a sneaky suspicion that he is a bit LSN than your other two were ;)
Oh, he's definitely LSN than the other two. I just have no idea how to manage it! ::) :P Ok, so push to 4h30-45min for nap?! I'm such a scaredy cat as big pushes never worked for Claire and Graham was totally textbook, so I'm used to small steps, LOL.
I like what you did with the NFs, Katherine. I've been thinking on the same lines. For a good couple weeks, I wasn't feeding until at least midnight and then 4-5am. We regressed a bit over the holidays and now I don't know what's happening... teeth, I guess. :-\ Last night, he woke at 11 and I resettled pretty quick, although had to go back in 10min later. Then, he woke at 11:50 and since it was close to 12am, I just fed as I'd been in bed in and out of sleep since 10:30. I guess I'm not sure I have the confidence to keep pushing when I know he's teething and the meds are wearing off. I tried to get G to drop likely the same two NFs around the same age and remember it being a struggle, but once the teeth were through it was quite easy. What's your take on that?!
Ok Marta, thanks. All good suggestions and makes total sense! I will work on it. :-*
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If it helps Katie, my DD managed a huge jump in A over around 2 months I think. Went from 3.5hrs A to 5.5hrs. As long as it's in the morning she can handle any OT.. It just resulted in a longer nap or a nap that I could easily resettle. I was scared too about these huge A times? Here to hold your hand.. It can't get any worse right? :-*
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Thanks, Kelly. You're right, I don't think it can get worse! :P :-\
Although, I was brought to tears last night. Pretty much the same as the night before, but it just got to me. He woke at 11:15, took about 15min to resettle, then woke again 20min later. I tried to settle, but ended up feeding again. I think I need to go to bed earlier and prepare for that, because it's so difficult to do during the first 30-45min of my sleep. Sorry, I know this thread isn't really about NWs. One tooth is cutting today, so maybe that will help. :-\
Today, so far...
WU ~6:50
A 4h35min
Nap 1 11:25-12:10 (45min; was going for 11:30, but he fell right to sleep, I couldn't resettle)
Nap 2 will be around 3:30
What do you all think about setting the first nap at 11:30? Or, should I keep pushing A? I guess I was thinking since he seems to vary from 30-60min at different A times, maybe if I set it, he'll have a chance at regulating? He's on the touchy side and I think his teeth are bothering him, but I'm hoping for at least a little consistency. :-\
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Katie, if you decided that keeping two naps as log as possible is fine for you I would set a nap at 11:30 or even earlier if it suits you and do a next one at 3pm and go with it. Ideally you probably should go for 2x 45min naps and 12h day looking at C sleeps needs I guess. Until the moment he start to refuse one of it. Than make a jump in A and go for one nap... WDYT?
Other solution with a low sleep need baby would be to push to one nap now, but he will probably be overtired by BT if he is touchy.
Gosh, I would go for that routine! I think two shorter 45-1h naps would be a godsend now for us but F is already refusing second one:( hate it.
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Hi, I just wanted to say you are not alone! I don't have anything constructive to add. Big hugs, it's hard isn't it?!
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Big hugs, it's hard isn't it?!
Thanks, and to you! :-* Nap transitions aren't usually fun, are they?! :P My DS1 is in the last part of the 1-0 as well, so things are a bit unsettled around here!
Marta, thanks for your thoughts. I read them that afternoon and thought "Well, the second nap is never more than 30min, so I'll have to get the first back to an hr, but then for two days in a row he did 45min for the second nap, with us having to wake him! What in the world?!" ??? Anyway, I do think I'd like to try to hold onto the two naps for as long as I can, but if I ever get a full first nap, I think we'll be in the same position as you and I won't have a choice. Wish I could do the CN in the morning, but I have no idea what A times would work and no patience to try to figure them out. :P
Here are the last several days...
Wed 1/7
WU 6:50
N1 11:30-12:15
N2 3:30-4:15 (I woke!)
BT 7pm
Thur 1/8
WU 7am (woke)
N1 11:30-12:30
N2 4-4:45 (DH was home and supposed to wake at 4:30, but got a call from work so didn't until 4:45 ::))
BT 7:30pm
Fri 1/9
WU 7:10 (was just waking when I went in)
N1 11:30-12:30
N2 4:30-4:50 (tried for 4pm, struggled to settle)
BT 7:15/20
Sat 1/10
WU 6:35
N1 fell asleep nursing around 11/11:10 (busted his lip open at 10:40, so quite sad and tired :()
So, I don't know why he couldn't get himself to sleep at 4 on Friday. I was thinking I'd try the same times through the weekend and if he continues to resist the CN, then push the first nap to 11:45. Does that sound right?
He's had pretty good nights (for him) since Wed too. I think there may have been an early NW on a couple days, but otherwise I've just fed at 12/1 and 4/5. Hoping to continue to get the day settled and once these teeth, which are currently close to cutting are through, start pushing out those feeds.
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Katie you may try set time for a second nap also. From observation of F, if I offer second nap before 4pm even if first one was 1,5h and ended at 1:15pm (so 2:45 A) he will happily settle for an UT nap. But if I offer a nap after 4pm... Almost always struggle to settle. So let say 11:30 and 3:45? Or even 3:30? So you would have 7am-11:30am longest A followed by 1h nap, 12:30-3:30 - 3h, short nap of 30min and another 3h of A till BT. If you don't like to wake from second nap and he does 45min you may try 7:15 for BT. WDYT?
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Sure, I can try that. Thanks, Marta. He hasn't always been the easiest to settle when UT, but I would think that first A time is long enough and nap short enough to overcome that. :-\
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Nothing much to add to the great advice already on here, except that you are doing GREAT with all of this. I can imagine how tired you are and with 2 other LOs to be present for. You are doing so well and I am sending big, big hugs. I don't think Ivy had hardly any naps over an hour until she was solidly on one nap and I tried and tried to fix it. It will all be OK. Sleepy vibes for your little C too.
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Hugs from me too hun. J was refusing pm naps from this age too, in fact even a bit younger. I APOPed if I could to get a CN (she didn't usually respond....) or just went for super EBT. Not long after we went to set nap and BT and pushed through to one nap. Hugs for going through the 1-0 too, it's tiring!
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I don't think Ivy had hardly any naps over an hour until she was solidly on one nap and I tried and tried to fix it.
Thanks, Maryn, that's good to hear. Some days I am a bit fearful that 1hr is all I'm ever going to get. :P :-[
Things are a bit muddied as I think he's about to cut two more teeth and his nose is running like a faucet (not sure if that's from the teeth or he's a bit under the weather :-\), bad enough that I have a hard time nursing him in the MOTN, because he's struggling to breathe. :( Anyway, I let him sleep til 7:30 on Sunday (I know ::)), because he was up for an hr in the MOTN. We went to late church and he slept from ~12:45-2:20pm in the car on the way home (I just leave it running in the driveway :P). He went to bed at 6:30-45pm (fell asleep nursing). The night wasn't great, but again it's hard to tell because of the teeth/stuffiness.
Today, he did...
WU 7am
N1 11:25-12:15
N2 3:45-4:15 (I woke... was hoping for 3:30-4:15, but he took awhile to settle)
BT 7:15ish (struggling to settle)
So, if he does a one nap day, what do I do with BT? Do I still work on the theory that he'll likely do 13.5hr total, so 12hr day? Or, do I put him down a little earlier, because he seems ready, and if so how early?
I can't tell if he's struggling to settle because of a routine issue or because he can't breathe. He did at the pm nap again today, even though the first one was only 45min and again at BT, which is rare (usually he passes out nursing or settles quick). If he was well in himself, I think I might start pushing to one nap, but I'm not sure I should right now.
ETA: I'm sure the BT struggle was due to his stuffiness, he didn't settle til about 7:25. Was then up screaming and hard to settle at 9:30. :(
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Hey there Katie Hun..I'm reading along and hoping things work out for you soon! Is he feeling better? I hope his nose didn't mess up the nights too much.
I'm as always still stuck on the crappy nap express! Would you believe a few times my lo slept 1h10 mins over the holidays? But I've never been able to repeat it. We're still on 30 mins max :(
I haven't read far back enough as I just got back a few days ago, but has he ever done a one nap day?
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Hi shresmummy, I feel like I should know your name but I guess I don't. :-\ Thanks for checking in, I've been wondering how you're doing too.
He has had a few one nap days, in fact both Sat and Sun were, so I thought we might be on to something, but no... today he had a short first nap. ::) His cold is better, not totally cleared but he is breathing much easier. Cutting two top teeth, one should be through in a day or so and the other isn't far behind. I know these things factor into the whole equation, but ugh the inconsistency drives me a bit batty. :P Nights have been pretty bad, but last night was a touch better so I'm hopeful.
Here's what the last 3 days have looked like...
Sat 1/17
WU 7:10ish
N1 11:30-12:45
N2 tried for 4/4:15, but he didn't go
BT 6pm
NW 10ish-11:45 (ugh, my mom was here and couldn't get him back down, I fed him when we got home at 10:30, but he still took awhile to settle)
NW/NF 2ish, 4:30
Sun 1/18
WU 6:30
N1 11:25-1:45 (in car)
BT 6:30
NW 10-10:45pm
NF 1ish,5ish
Mon 1/19
WU 6:30
N1 11:30-12:00
N2 3-4pm (planned to wake him at 3:45, but was playing outside one on one with G and just didn't want to stop; interested to see if it makes any difference in the night)
BT 7:30pm
Why does he only take a long nap in the car, is it some kind of prop? It's not moving... just running in the driveway. ::) I was thinking today's 1st nap was maybe OT, but then he goes ahead and sleeps past 30min for the pm nap, so he can't be that OT. It's just his default, I guess. Any overall thoughts, anyone?
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Hi Katie, I'm sorry I should've mentioned my name earlier, it's Priya :)
I noticed you have a pretty long A time before the first nap. I too would've thought that first nap from today was ot. But the pm was pretty good. Don't they surprise you sometimes? How did the night go?
I think I need to up my first A time too.. We are still stuck at 3 hrs..I'm such a mess I don't even know what to post!!
Fingers xx for a better night for you..xx
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Hi Priya! :D No need to apologize, you really don't need to tell me anything! ;)
So, night didn't go well. He was up at 5:10, but resettled quick so I thought we were in the clear, but then up at 5:50 for the day. :( Not sure if there wasn't enough A time between last nap and BT or what. Could be partly teeth too, but I'm guessing the late nap had something to do with it also. Oh well... ::)
Fell asleep for 10min in the car on the way to Mom's group this morning and then again on the way home, and I didn't get G out fast enough (as he dozed off as well :P), so C woke when I opened the car door to get G out (darn sliding doors!). Will have to go for 30min at 3:30 again.
Blah, I'm tired and DH has started traveling for work, which he will do about every other week through April, so it all seems a bit daunting right now.
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Katie, can I ask... Do you plan to ditch the nights feeds..? I guess it may be difficult right now to assess which NWs are related to what as he is just used to go back to sleep on boob.
I think that F also wakes at nights but usually if it's not a great OT or teeth he will go back to sleep by himself and a lovey.
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That's a good point actually, I also like you Katie have been doing several night feeds. Does C feed a lot at each one? I know mine doesn't, but I'm so tired usually I don't even realise I've put him on the boob until he pulls off and I go, ooh better pop him back in the cot! It's so awful you'd think third time around I would know better..but it's so much harder this time because of the complete lack of inconsistency!
Our naps are a mess, our nights are a disaster, I'm thinking of starting yet another post...can some of you ladies please pop on there too? I think I'm going to need all the help I can get.
Katie, I'll be there to hold your hand till April if nothing else (I'm the last person on wrath to be giving advice now!,)
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Katie, can I ask... Do you plan to ditch the nights feeds..? I guess it may be difficult right now to assess which NWs are related to what as he is just used to go back to sleep on boob.
Yes, of course you can ask. I would like to get rid of the NFs, but honestly am not determined enough to do it while he's actively cutting teeth. I really need resolve to do it because he's a screamer, and my experience with the other two is that if teething isn't involved, NWs are much easier to get rid of. :-\ You're right though, it's hard to tell what the waking is from when there's a prop still involved. :P
Yes, Priya, things are just messy, aren't they. Will look for your thread, hon.
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As a fully paid-up member of the 'things are a mess brigade' I will keep an eye out too xx
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Another 30min first nap... for heaven's sake, this is maddening. :(
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He always did 30min when UT. Wdyt?
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Yes, the thought has crossed my mind. I guess I could push to 11:45. I have a really hard time keeping him awake when I nurse him at 11am, in fact sometimes he just falls asleep no matter what I try. :-\ Will keep plugging along, thanks. :-*
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Ohhhh don't tell me... 11am is the most sleepy part of the day for F:) and we usually survive it on a walk in a pram:). But maybe you could ditch the 11am milk and either give him solid lunch around 11:30 or make BF a morning snack around 10am when he is not sleepy yet and then offer solid snack at 11:30?
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Interesting! I'd really rather nurse him as then we can be out in the morning and I can nurse him before we leave and do the car trick. :P But, I could always bring some snacks as a light lunch too, I guess. Thanks for your thoughts, as always, Marta. :)
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Just changed my previous post Katie :)
And I am not very creative...:p I just share what I do, lol:)))
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Well, it helps to hear what others do, for sure! Of course now he's struggling to get himself asleep for the afternoon nap. >:( It's days like this, when I know DH won't be home that just get me... I'm anxious and on-edge. :( :-[ Thanks for being on the other side, ladies. :-*
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If it makes you feel better, my DH is not at home ::) and I am just making myself to sleep as it's almost 11pm here and it's late for me!
And btw my DH is on a business trip and after work today he went to the cinema to see Taken 3 with Liam Neeson :o and who will tell me why I am sitting alone at home ???
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I'm eternally on edge these days it feels like, DH has started a new job and it's late nights a lot :(
Today was the pits :( but at least we're in it together.. Sleepy vibes to all of you. Xxx
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Katie, wild thought here but would you consider a cold turkey switch to one nap? At this age with lots of nap silliness and in prep for nursery we switched to nap 11.30/45 and BT 6pm. Just rode it out for a few weeks, not pretty but given you don't have great naps or nights anyway maybe worth just going for it? If J had any more than 25 mins or so am nap there was no way we were getting a second one anyway so at least our day had some predictability. Very occasionally if the nap was a total and utter disaster we did 5/5.30pm bt or if a very very EW did 20 mins or so around 9/9.30 then an afternoon nap (best guess on timing...) and normal BT. But otherwise just pushed on through. What do you think?
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It's scary, but definitely worth thinking about.
Wed after he couldn't settle for the pm nap, I had to bring Claire to a church class, so he fell asleep for 10-15min in the car around 5. Didn't get home til almost 7, so he fell asleep probably 7:15/30 and was up just before 6:30 Thurs morning. G had gymnastics, and then we ran to the store, and he fell asleep on the way home. He slept 2hr in the car. So, either the car is some sort of prop, or when he does that it's because he's had shorter nights and is catching up, which must mean he needs a longer A time during the day. ???
This is what we've had this week...
Mon 1/19
WU 6:30
N1 11:30-12
N2 3-4
BT 7:30
Tues 1/20
WU 5:50
N1 10-15min in car around 8:30/40
N2 40min in car at 11:45
N3 3:30-4:10
BT 6:45/7
Wed 1/21
WU 6:50
N1 11:30-12
N2 (couldn't settle at 3:30); 5:10-5:20
BT 7:30
Thur 1/22
WU 6:25?
N1 11:25-1:30
BT 6:40 (earliest possible after getting home from dance :P)
Fri 1/23
WU around 6:30 (not exactly sure)
N1 11:30-
What do you think? I don't know why he doesn't do a long nap in his crib... I've seen him almost wake and resettle in the car, but he rarely can in the crib. ::) :-\
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My guess would be a little hint of a prop....combined with overall OT from short naps and unsettled nights. So he probably jolts awake but in the car the containment of the seat and engine noise/vibration is just enough to help him carry on sleeping. In his crib he jolts and is properly awake, then finds it hard to settle back down again.
If other LOs were not an issue, I'd say do the cold turkey to one nap. My slight concern with that is consistency :-\ as if you're likely to be out and about at times he's likely to drop off (during 2-1 J would fall asleep after 3-3.5h A in the morning in the car, and she was NEVER a car sleeper) or not able to guarantee being home for EBT then I think it could all unravel very quickly.....that said, how's this for an idea?
1 nap days: Reasonable' ie post 6am WU time - nap 11.30, BT 6pm (up to 30 mins earlier if nap very short)
2 nap days: Very EW or accidentally falls asleep early in car - max 20 min catnap then PD for second nap around 3-3.5h later, BT max for 13h day so something like WU 5.30, nap 9-9.20, nap 12.30/1 and bt 6/6.30pm
Late nights - can't be helped - you'll maybe have to revert to a 2 nap day the following day if you don't get a reasonable WU time but I would say if WU still post-6am try to do one nap
Also just wanted to offer a hand to hold when and if you're ready with the night feeds. I know you know he doesn't need them, but I understand your reluctance during teething. You have to be ready hun but you can totally do it. It may not solve your NWs (they haven't all magically gone away here ::) ) but at least you'll have ruled out hunger or a feed to sleep prop as the reason xx
And play it by ear?
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Thanks, Katherine. :-* Read your post quickly and will reply in a bit when I have more time.
But, for now, before all you ladies head to bed, can you give me your opinion on BT tonight? He slept a long nap!! ;D
So,
WU 6:30ish
Nap 11:30-1:20
BT ???
Should I shoot for 6 or 6:30 or just watch and see? I have a going away party tonight at 6:30 (can be late of course), so I'm tempted to go for 6, but don't want to shoot myself in the foot! :P
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I'd have done 6 with J xx
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Great, thanks so much! :-* Going to go feed him some lunch.
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Hope it works out! And well done little C :D
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Thanks! Night didn't go too well, but I didn't give meds as it had been several days. So, hard to know if the unsettledness was OT, teeth, or the boob prop. ::) :-[ He was definitely ready for bed at 6pm, though, so I think that was right.
Ok, Katherine... thanks for your ideas and plan. You're right, it's much messier with the big two, so hard to be really consistent (especially with DH travelling as well).
1 nap days: Reasonable' ie post 6am WU time - nap 11.30, BT 6pm (up to 30 mins earlier if nap very short)
2 nap days: Very EW or accidentally falls asleep early in car - max 20 min catnap then PD for second nap around 3-3.5h later, BT max for 13h day so something like WU 5.30, nap 9-9.20, nap 12.30/1 and bt 6/6.30pm
Late nights - can't be helped - you'll maybe have to revert to a 2 nap day the following day if you don't get a reasonable WU time but I would say if WU still post-6am try to do one nap
I think this sounds reasonable... let's see if I'm brave enough to do it! :P So, do you think if he only does the 1hr nap first nap as he has often done, I shouldn't try for a CN? And, what about a later WU... keep the 11:30 nap or push to 5hr A?
Today was...
WU 7am
Nap 11:55-1:40 (in car after skating lessons, I think at home I would've still done 11:30 as he seemed pretty tired)
BT 6:30pm
Also just wanted to offer a hand to hold when and if you're ready with the night feeds. I know you know he doesn't need them, but I understand your reluctance during teething. You have to be ready hun but you can totally do it. It may not solve your NWs (they haven't all magically gone away here ) but at least you'll have ruled out hunger or a feed to sleep prop as the reason xx
Thank you! I'm really thinking on trying to push them out again as you described before. I am still a bit reluctant, but it's just feeling silly. :-[ Let me work up the courage and make sure DH has his earplugs and I'll let you know.
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I am here Katie if you need some hands holding:)))!
We had couple of one nap days and they most go fine however on 2h nap and 12h day we still have some OT wakings/cryouts.
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Good luck Hun! It's scary but you'll get thru it..I'll keep my fingers xx for you.
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My thinking Katie was that a reasonable WU and 1h nap with 6pm BT will likely give more sleep overall than doing a late CN and later BT. But that was only with the experience of J who was a CN refuser anyway ::) I would keep to the set nap time even with later WU. While we were transitioning sometimes J would try to have a monster lie-in, I would wake her at 8am and she'd still go down at usual time. Often the nap would be a touch shorter but because WU was late, the day wasn't so long and she managed ok x
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And how long were here days and naps together? Was she having 13, 14 or something like that as an average?
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I think probably around 14h, maybe a touch more or less - but bear in mind this is probably more sleep on average than she got most of her first year! I found sleep needs in general a little higher and more consistent in the first few months on one nap x
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Thanks God! As I am Adrian to let F sleep 2h at nap time with 12h nights! Katie sorry for OT!
And also for you we are now having 5h+ A time one the morning and are getting 2h nap. Frank's A time increased significantly in last two weeks. He needs couple of days, he adjust and once again we have shorter naps!
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My experience in the past was at this stage two 1 nap days were all we could manage in the first few weeks. Then had either an ew or lots of nws and had to do a 2 nap day.
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As I am Adrian to let F sleep 2h at nap time with 12h nights! Katie sorry for OT!
Not sure what that means, but no worries. :-* I think that sounds fine, even 2.5hr nap if needed. I found with my other two that in a transition more naps usually means a little less sleep overall and dropping a nap can increases it a bit (at least for a little while).
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I don't know what "Adrian" is doing there LOL, but it's probably a stupid iPhone which autocorrected...
Thanks for sharing your experience.
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I don't know what "Adrian" is doing there LOL, but it's probably a stupid iPhone which autocorrected...
LOL, I thought maybe it was a Polish expression. ;)
I think I've made a mess of things. :-[ I don't know if he got OT or what, but we had one nap days on Thurs, Fri, and Sat. Sunday I got him down late, so 2x30min naps and that happened again on Mon (although I got him down at the right time). Tues and today he EW 5:30-5:45 and I couldn't get him back to sleep. :-\
Tues was this...
WU 5:45
N1 10:40-11:20
N2 3-3:30
BT 6:30
Wed...
WU 5:35
N1 9:35-9:55
N2 1-2pm (was 20min too long for am nap?)
BT ??? (I don't know if I should do 6 or push to 6:30)
Bugger, I thought it was going well! :(
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Hey! Don't worry:). Maybe three days in a row is too much?
We also have some mess here as on the 4th day with one nap he did 1:15 nap which is I guess OT. 2 nap days regenerated him so we had a decent WU the next day but today some noisy kid woke Ds up at the nursery, uhhhh:).
But! My point is, we are so close Katie!!! Just a couple of weeks and we will be there! One nap days:D.
All of our problems with sleep will solve out and we will live happily ever after, LOL.
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All of our problems with sleep will solve out and we will live happily ever after, LOL.
LOL, paradise! ;) :P
I guess what bothered me was that the two nap days haven't been that good and didn't bring WU better. He's cutting another tooth, so maybe that's playing a part. :-\ He'll likely nap in the car tomorrow after G's gymnastics, so maybe that will help. ::)
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All of our problems with sleep will solve out and we will live happily ever after, LOL.
Can I join in this magical wondreland :-) Haha
I wish it was so easy. I need sleep.
Katie. Is it possible that the teeth you said are comung, are coming out right now?
Btw its 2am and Im up. Dd is "sleep walking" in the crib. She gets up, not standing, but just enough so she can move. Her legs are where her head was. She is snoring too.
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Oh dear! Hope she doesn't hurt herself! Yes, I found any more than 2 days in a row things were bound yo get messy. What I used to do was rather than 2 naps, try for an early first nap, let him sleep as long as wanted then do ebt if needed. This didn't work with my other Ds but did with dd cos she used to then do 13 hr nights.
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Yes hun we also reached a point of OT on one nap days but two naps did nothing to improve things. Time to take a deep breath and push on through xx
Ps can I join magic land too?!!
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I'd like a spot in that glorious sounding one nap land too! Hopefully you ladies get there in a few weeks!
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Ok, thanks everyone. I guess I'll have to see over the next week or so what works best. He woke up at a better time today, just before 7am, but had a pretty unsettled night. Dache, the second top tooth looks like it's just about to cut, in fact I wake up each morning expecting to see it through, but not yet. ::) He nicely did a 2hr nap in the car after gymnastics. I've half a mind to drive him around at 11:30 for a week to set that a bit, but it does seem a bit ridiculous at the same time. :P. Will keep plugging along, thanks for all your input. :-*
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I don't think it's ridiculous at all Hun! If only my lo slept in the car, I'd do that in a flash! I dud that with my DS1 during the 1-0 all the time :)
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I just don't know how to catch this kid up. :-\ With the other two, I had a 2-nap routine to fall back on and could get them back to waking at a decent hour, but nothing seems to work with Charlie. I'm getting frustrated and down about it.
It seems that if he sleeps an hr or more for the first nap, we have no chance of a second, which is ok if I can do EBT, but ends up ugly if I can't. And, if I cut too short in the morning, he just does another short one in the afternoon. ::)
Here's what the last week has looked like...
Tues 2/3
WU 6:45am
Nap 11:45-12:55
BT 6:00pm
Wed 2/4
WU 6:30
Nap 11:30-12:30
Tried for CN at 4:30, as couldn't do EBT by he wouldn't go
BT 7pm
Thurs 2/5
WU 6:30
Nap 11:30-12:30
BT 6:30 (earliest I could do)
Fri 2/6
WU 6:30 (could tell he was really tired)
Nap 11:30-12
Nap 4:15-4:45 (in car)
BT 7pm
Sat 2/7
WU 5:45
Nap 9:30-9:50
Nap 1-1:30 (couldn't resettle)
BT 6pm
Sun 2/8
WU 5:45
Nap 10:45-11:25am
Nap 2:40-3:30pm (DH woke)
BT 7pm
Mon 2/9
WU 5:30am (was really bummed, as I thought the two decent naps on Sunday would help :-\)
Nap 10:45-11:55am (had to resettle at 11:15)
He was falling asleep as I nursed him at 3:15, so put him down around 3:45, but he wouldn't go! >:(
BT will aim for 5:30-6pm
He's cutting another tooth (they just keep coming one after the other, this will be the fourth since the new year), so that is causing some unsettled NW. I'm still feeding twice a night, but that doesn't seem to help in the early morning.
What should I do?!
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I feel for you Hun.. I'm struggling with the identical issues. Ebt doesn't ever work for us. :(
Winder what would happen if you put him down for the first nap at say 4.5 A time instead of 5? Would he nap linger? Do you think he's ot?
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I'm pretty sure he's OT... was up at 4:45 this morning. :( Dozed while I fed him, but I don't think ever properly got himself back to sleep. I even tried putting him in the swing after I fed him, but he started screeching 20min later. I was thinking to do 4.5hr and let him sleep for 30min as he seems to be able to do a solid 3hr after that and then a decent nap. I think I keep getting bedtime wrong... I don't know?!
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Katie - two ideas: first one, go for a really short am catnap of 15 mins around 9/9.30am, then another nap around 3-3.5h later. Or, realistically what's a bedtime you can manage on a daily basis? Is 6.30pm always do-able? Or 7pm? You could set nap at 12pm, BT at 6.30/7 and push on through? Am thinking 11.30 nap too early during tranistion if you can't reliably get him down at 6pm.....
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Thanks, Katherine. I keep trying the 15/20min CN, but don't get very good results. That's what I'd like to work. :P
BT is tough... I can do 6-6:30 every night that DH is home, but when he travels I need to get Claire to her church class on Wed (so bedtime is 6:30-7) and Thurs is dance (which means 6:30 BT). I keep thinking we're close to the clock change, so maybe that will help. :P
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What sort of A times have you tried with the short CN? I wonder if you may not have pushed him quite hard enough? I've seen elsewhere (based on 7-7 routine) some babies doing roughly 10-10.15 and then 1/1.30 for second nap just prior to the 2-1, wonder if that's possible for him? Though if even that didn't get you a half-decent afternoon nap I think probably cold turkey one nap might be where you have to go....he may be further into 2-1 than we think ;)
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he may be further into 2-1 than we think ;)
I'm sure you're right... I've always been a step or two behind with him, haven't I?! :-\ :-[ Cold turkey to one nap does sound appealing, I'm just worried about that proverbial 30min nap and the times I can't do EBT.
What sort of A times have you tried with the short CN? I wonder if you may not have pushed him quite hard enough?
Could be... I have only done the CN on days where he's up before 6 and have tended to do 9:30ish for 20min and 1ish (which has given varied results of 30min-1hr). It seems if I pushed him to 10am, that would be such a long morning A, 4+hr, that 15-20min wouldn't tide him over, but again I've rarely been right with him.
Yesterday was this...
WU 4:45 (nursed and dozed til 5:25, put back down but don't think he slept)
Nap 1 9:25-9:55am
Nap 2 1:10-2:15pm (with a resettle at 1:40)
BT fell asleep nursing between 6-6:30pm
Today...
WU 7-7:15 (not sure, he was awake when I went in)
Nap 12-1:30 (woke and stood at 12:50ish, but went back to sleep)
BT thinking I'll try for 6:30??
Any thoughts?!
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I'd say go for it! Fingers xx it works :)
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Before we pushed to the 1 nap (which, as you know, is going SO well :P) we were doing
745: A
1115: S
1145: wake her up
3ish: S
445: wake her
815: S
So he might do a longer A to the CN than you think. The last couple of days, though, look like what I've been trying to do. How's his nighttime? Is he crabby as bedtime approaches or does he seem ok?
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How's his nighttime? Is he crabby as bedtime approaches or does he seem ok?
I can really only tell on the one nap days. :-\. He starts to really rub his eyes and generally just get tired. He's had a lot of spiritedness come out in the last month or so, so his crabbiness seems more geared to having to stop what he wants to be doing rather than get ready and go to bed. :P
Didn't go well tonight... he was basically a asleep when I put him down right before 6:30 and then really woke up and had a hard time settling. He and G have a nice, cruddy cold complete with wheezing cough so that didn't help. :(
Sorry, not meaning for this to be a diary... just feeling exhausted and unsure of what I'm doing. :-[
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Oh hugs Hun.. It sometimes helps to talk about it, so don't worry! I think it was the cold. Did he have a lot of early nws? Did he settle better later in the night?
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Hugs lovely hope you managed a bit of rest overnight x
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Thanks, ladies. :-*
You're not going to believe this... he had his best night ever!! :o A quick resettle at 11pm and then slept til 3:50, when I fed him (wow, full boobs! ::))! Then slept til 6:45am. So, not nearly 12hr and was really tired and not feeling well this morning. Has fallen asleep nursing before his nap and I let him. :-\
Now if only we could duplicate that! I'm wondering does he really only need 1.5hr nap and 12hr night?! Was it a one-off because he's not feeling well (which has never been the case before :P)? I don't know, I just long for some consistency (and sleep! ::) ;)).
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Oh my gosh, this is so ridiculous, I can't even believe I'm typing it, but I am. He's still sleeping for a nap! He went down around 11:45/50, has sat/stood up twice and resettled, and is still sleeping now at 1:42. DH and I are going out tonight for dinner (reservation at 7:15 or 30, I think), so I need him down by 7. Should I wake him at 2pm?! :o
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I would let him sleep... Max 2.5?
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Thanks, Marta. :-* He woke at 1:55... silly me! :P Not sure what's going on, maybe illness, but I'm hoping were on a better track!
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That is awesome!,, you must feel like a new woman! Hope it continues :))) and hope you had a good dinner last night :)
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Hope you had fun Katie :D
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Thanks! :-*
He did the same at bedtime last night, couldn't settle, so we ended up going out late, but that's how it goes with kids, right?! Had a nice time. Back to two wakings last night, but we'll get there.
Thanks for all your support ladies... hoping to stay on more of an even keel for a bit here, but I'm sure things will go haywire again. Just keep swimming, right?! ;)
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Yup, something like that!
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Wow yay for a great nap! Glad you had a night out even if it was a little delayed
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Yup that's it! Hope they continue looking good :))