4.5 month old. Do I stick to a 3h EASY if no dreamfeed? (BF baby)

[SDER]

Quick question.

I've been using the easy routine with my son since he was 7 weeks old.  It went well, then I had to make some adjustments when he hit his latest growth spurt and wonder week.  We are now up to 2h wake time (give or take 15 minutes).  Though I'm still struggling with short naps (even since we got hit with wonder week 19), I'm working on resolving the issue (probable overactive letdown and silent reflux).  We're also working on helping him transition during sleep cycles so that he can fall back asleep on his own.

My son used to be a great sleeper, nursing at 19:00, then going through the bedtime routine, asleep by 19:30, awake at 02:30 (approx) to nurse and then back down until 07:00 (approx).

I keep reading about the dreamfeed, but have never done it.  Should I stick to a 3h easy (maybe try to go up to 3.5h?) so I can be sure he eats enough during the day?

Thanks!

[Ima shel Alon]

What makes you think he is not feeding enough right now? Is weight gain all right? Are you nights still with one NF?

[SDER]

I've been only recently starting to question whether he's eating enough during the day or not.  Though his weight gain is great, our nights have become a nightmare (up every 45min - 2h) and he's nursing twice if not three times.  I always try to soothe him back to sleep and sometimes it works, but I usually have to nurse him again for him to calm down enough to go back down.  He genuinely seems hungry because he gulps down milk for quite a while before slowing down.

It occurred to me this morning that perhaps one of the problems we are having is that he is not getting enough calories during the day and so, is catching up at night.  He has been very distractable at the breast over the past few weeks and according to my SO, would sometimes nurse for only 3-4 minutes.  I have never really noticed his nursing times (I would always wait until he unlatched), because he was sleeping well and gaining weight well.  However, I suspect that he's only nursing to take the edge off and then forgets to keep drinking as he looks around and turns away from the breast.  During the night, there are no distractions: no lights, no phone ringing, no sounds coming from the kitchen, no father talking... so he gets more milk (I presume).

I'm thinking I need to pay more attention to the time he spends on the breast and keep logs of the next couple of days just to see if there is any improvement.

[Ima shel Alon]

2-3 NF at this age for a BF baby would still be quite normal. My DS was FF and still had 3 feeds at this age .
But the frequent waking can be because of his day routine, maybe his A times need to be tweaked? You can post your day in an EASY format and we can have a look at it.

During the night, there are no distractions: no lights, no phone ringing, no sounds coming from the kitchen, no father talking... so he gets more milk (I presume).

I remember this time. They get so curious and "forget" to eat, lol. I created the same conditions that are at night time in day time. I took him to another room to feed, in darkness and no noises. It helped a lot. It's not always possible, of course, but whenever I could I did it and eventually (not so far down the road) they grow out of it.

[SDER]

Hi!

Thanks again for your reply.

Here's his easy for yesterday.  It's pretty detailed as I was looking to see if I could find a pattern.  I took note of how long he nursed.  If I hadn't been looking at the clock, he would have nursed for about 4 minutes each time (only on one breast).  The nursing time include burping him (numerous times). 

Looking at naps and last night, I'm thinking that we've got a prop problem...and a problem transitioning between sleep cycles.  If you see anything else, however, I would love your input!

7 :00 → Chatter in bed
(E) 7 :15 → Get out of bed.  Nurse 20 min (R, L)
(A) 7 :25 → File down nails, change diaper, put on cream, brakfast, activity center, read book.
(…S…) 8 :35 → Try to put down for nap (cues : whisper, curtains, key words, white noise) *shhsh/pat + paci
(S) 9 :05 → Asleep (back)
9 :30 → Wake up screaming – try to resettle (shhsh/pat + paci)
9 :45 → Wide awake, chatting, turning head and squirming to try to make eye contact.
(A) 9 :45 → Open package,  Practice sitting against boppy, tummy time, swing
(E) 10 :35 → Nurse 15 min (L,R) *Fussy : gas and probably fatigue
(A) 10 :50 →  Diaper, change into day clothes *Fussy : tired (rubs eyes, pulls ears)
(…S…) 11 :10 → Try to put down for nap *shhsh/pat + paci
(S) 11 :20 → Asleep (side)
11 :50 → Squeak
12 :00 → Panicked fuss – resettle (paci, hand on shoulder)
12 :55 → Squeak
13 :05 → Panicked fuss – resettle (paci, hand on shoulder)
(A) 13 :30 → Walk around in mommy’s arms, look at the baby in the mirror, play with Sophie the giraffe, play with toy hammer
(E) 13 :50 → Nurse 15 min (R, L)
(A) 14 :05 → Diaper change, play in crib, practice rolling over, swing, book
(…S…) 15 :15  → Try to put down for nap *shhsh/pat +paci
(S) 15 :30 → Asleep (side)
16 :15 → Stirring
16 :20 → Panicked fuss – (paci, shhsh/pat 30 min – not asleep but calm when left room).
(A) 16 :50 → Practice sitting, walk (in carrier)
(E) 17 :30 → Nurse 12 min (L, R)
(A) 17 :50 →  Diaper, practice sitting, sit at table during supper
(E) 18 :55 →  Top off nursing 8 min  (R) *fussy, squirming pop on and off
(A) 19 :05 →  Bath ritual, bedtime ritual
(…S…) 19 :20 → Try to put him down for sleep *shhsh/pat +paci
(S)  19 :40  →  Asleep (side)

The night was a disaster.  I put him down unswaddled (as with for his naps today) because lately he has been breaking out of swaddles and waking himself out by rubbing his hands all over his face) with him waking up at 21:20, 22:40, 23:00, 23:20, 23:45¹, 2:00², 3:35, 4:10, 5:10, 6:15, up for the day at 7:00.  He never seemed fully awake (eyes closed,  rubbing his face, calming down as soon as the pacifier was in and generally needing a hand on his chest for a couple of minutes before falling back asleep) and I only go in when I hear the "panicked fuss" because when I hear that, it means I have only a few seconds before he starts crying his head off.

¹At this point, I decided put his arms inside of his sleep sac
²At this point, I nursed him seeing as his last feed was 7 hours previous.  He only nursed for 3 minutes though and it felt more like a comfort nursing session than a hunger nursing session

Other notes of interest:

• After each awakening, he would calm down immediately once the pacifier was in.  Trying shhsh/pat only served to get him into "full blown crying his heart out" mode.
• Even after putting his arms in his sleep sack, I would find him with one arm out (he found a way to get it back into the arm hole) when he awoke.
• When his arms are loose, he has a tendency to grab onto the pacifier and pull it out of his mouth (even once I put socks over his hands) and then start crying because he doesn't have it in his mouth anymore.  He is still unable to stick it back into his mouth on his own and he doesn't think to suck on his hands.

Today, I decided to start swaddling him again (he obviously isn't  ready to be weaned off the swaddle yet), but will be using the Aussie swaddle because he does like some mobility.  Crossing my fingers for it to make a difference.

Sorry if my reply has too much information or seems all over the place, I'm kind of sleep-deprived.

[Ima shel Alon]

I find it difficult to decide if his naps are UT or OT. His A time seems about right - 1.5-2h, but he is doing 30min long naps which would usually be OT and wakes up crabby.
So there are a few scenarios: Either he goes down UT, takes too long to fall asleep and ends up OT;
or he goes down OT and does an OT nap;
or his A time is the right length for him, falls asleep all right, but doesn't manage yet to go through sleep cycles by himself yet;
or the 30min nap is for him an UT nap (some babies do that) and he would need an A increase.

I know, I just confused you even more . TBH, if IIWY I would rather work on helping him go through sleep cycles by himself rather than tweaking A times now because we are not sure A time IS the issue and if we try and help him go through sleep cycles and there is still a problem with naps then we know it's the A time.
There is information here how to do that: How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods) and I would actually try HTTJ first and not W2S (I think the nap is too short for W2S).
What do you think?

The other thing is that he goes down at BT OT. His A time was 3h, which is usually what a 6m old baby would do! This would explain the frequent NW as well. So what you could is offer a CN in the late afternoon that will bring him to BT more refreshed.

And I agree with you, I think the paci is a prop. Usually I wouldn't say anything about it, because it's such an individual decision, but 10 NW??? My heart goes out to you, I really don't think that you can go on like this for long, hun.
I don't think that 1NF is enough for him. I mean, you could decide to feed one more time at night or to do a DF to ease with the NW, yk? And I don't tell you to stop giving him the paci, this is your and only yours, decision. You can wait it out if you wish, he will grow a bit and will be able to replug the paci by himself and you can decide to wean it right now. It's up to you.

Hope I didn't confuse you much. Hugs, sweetie.

[SDER]

Haha!  Love all of the options 

No worries, you didn't confuse me.  And I am TOTALLY getting rid of the darned pacifier!  This has been going on for a month already (getting progressively worse each week) and I am pretty much at my breaking point.

Yesterday was better.  Here's what the day looked like in terms of awake time (E&S)

(E&A) 7 :00 - 8:45
(…S…) 8 :45 → Try to put down. *Cues. + Aussie swaddle, paci (stopped crying as soon as I gave it to him)
(S) 8 :50 → Asleep (back)
9 :25 → Fuss *paci
9 :40 → Chirp
10 :20 → Wake up, bad mood
(E&A) 10 :25 - 12:25
(…S…) 12 :25 → Try to put down.  *Cues. + Aussie swaddle, paci
(S)  12 :30 → Asleep (back)
13 :10 → Brief awakening *Paci, turn on side, fell asleep on his own
14 :20 → Stirring
(E&A) 14 :25 - 16:10
(…S…) 16 :10 Attempt to put down, half Aussie swaddle, pacifier
(S) 16 :20
(A) 17 :05
(E) 17 :45 → Nurse 12 min (R,L)
(A) 17 :55
(E) 18 :30 → Top off feed 3 min (L)
(A) 18 :35 → Bedtime routine
(…S…) 19 :00 → Half Aussie swaddle, Pantley’s gentle removal (GR) 3x for paci weaning, rub tummy, key words « It's ok, it's just sleep time, mommy loves you »
(S) 19 :20 → Asleep

This night was better than the one before.  NW went as follows:

(NW) 23 :00 → Wake up crying: GR 3x, NF 10, GR 1x + rub tummy & hold legs
(S) → 23 :30
(NW) 00 :45 →  Fuss
00 :50 →  Cry *GR 3x + shhsh/pat
(S) 1 :00  → Asleep
1 :05 → Fuss
1 :10 → Cry * GR 1x + shhsh/belly rub
(S) 1 :15 → Asleep
1 :25 → Cry *GR 1x with pinky + shhsh/pat, 1x with paci
(S) → 1 :40
(NW) 3 :05 → fuss *pat
(S) 3:10
(NW) 4 :30 → fuss, Wake up crying: NF → Wide awake *sigh* GR 3x + belly rub (was able to fall asleep from awake without the paci, just belly rub after the 3rd removal!)
(S) → 5 :10
6 :00 → Cry, startled alarm clock *1 GR
6 :30 → Cry, startled (daddy's preparing his breakfast lol) *1 GR
7 :00 → Wake up, up at 7 :15

I'm thinking that I'm going to keep trying GR and shhsh/pat for a couple of nights to see if it works for me.

I also think that the poor naps are a result of having trouble  managing sleep cycles because he generally wakes up after 45 min on the dot!  And since I also think the naps are too short to try wake to sleep, I'll be starting to go in after 30 min.for HTTJ and see how that works out.

Also, I'm starting to think that his sleep troubles are a result of a vicious cycle.  When he started doing 45 min naps (@ the 3 month mark), I would get him up, because that's what I was used to doing.  I think, that this caused him to become overtired and so bedtime was a pain.  He'd go down overtired because BT was too late and he wasn't getting enough sleep during the day.  His nights became poor so his daytime sleep suffered.  My nights suffered so I started popping in the paci.  Then, I started bringing him to bed with me to nurse, which generally led to both of us falling asleep side by side.  So all in all, this mess is a nice mix of AP, turning a paci into a prop,  UT  (until I transitionned to a 2h wake time give or take 15 min), OT from late bedtime and poor naps.  It's crazy how something small and seemingly inoffensive can lead to a big bad sleeping disaster!

Thanks again!

[Ima shel Alon]

It's crazy how something small and seemingly inoffensive can lead to a big bad sleeping disaster!

I hear you!
I found that whatever I am doing I need to try and look ahead and whenever there was something that potentially could go wrong I would stop with it. But sometimes you can't anticipate those things
Don't worry! It sounds like you are already making good progress!

Pantley’s gentle removal (GR) 3x for paci weaning

I never heard of that. What is that?

Looking at yesterday's EASY my only remark would be that his A time before BT was again very very long.

[SDER]

Progress indeed!

I don't want to get too excited, but last night we went down to 4, maybe 5 night wakings!  I didn't count because I was actually able to sleep.  I feel so full of energy today, it's crazy!

Yesterday evening, we had about a 3h awake time before we were finally able to put him down for the night.  I tried to get him down for a CN but there was no soothing him, he just kept screaming and screaming and screaming so I was expecting the worst for the night, but it went well.  Hoping it keeps going well.

You can find info on Pantley's Gentle Removal here: Gentle Removal Plan

But in a nutshell, the method goes something like this:
1.  Put LO down for BT as usual.
2.  When the sucking slows and LO gets drowsy, you break the seal to remove the paci/bottle/breast.
3.  You place a finger under the chin to gently keep LOs mouth closed or place a finger on LOs chin and gently apply pressure and soothe LO by continuing to rock him/her
4.  If LO roots or fusses, you replace the prop. and count between 10 and 60 sec (depending on how long it takes for LO to get back to slow-sucking drowsy state) and start again until LO is asleep.

I was sceptical, but so far so good *knock on wood*.

The only changes that I made were that I waited for my son to cry before sticking the paci back in (instead of fuss), I did not place my finger on or under his chin (because it just made him angry) and I rubbed his belly instead of rocking him (because we weaned him off of being rocked to sleep).

[Ima shel Alon]

Thank you! That's very interesting. And here is me thinking I read all the FAQ on the site .