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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: lolsyb1982 on October 30, 2014, 10:33:43 am
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Hi all
DD is now 19 months. Sleep has been pretty rubbish for about 2 months now and I've put it down to teeth/illness/regression.
I'm now sick of making excuses and want to get it sorted. She has been an IS but not for a while now. Naps were always fine and I could just lay her down but the past wk she won't go to sleep by herself then either.
It's taking around an hour to go to sleep at night/she's waking at night (have noticed if she has her usual 2hr nap the NW is longer) and we're getting EW and she won't resettle.
She's obviously OT which is why I'm letting her have the 2hr nap but I'm wondering if it does need capping a bit (although hard to do when nights are rubbish - vicious circle perhaps)
I did set naps/BT over the summer as she was with grandparents and not the childminder and this worked really well. The problem I have when she's with the CM is that she will only ever sleep for between 45-1.10 which if I did normal bedtime might be too much????
I would say she was ASN - maybe on the lower end of average. She has only ever had 13hrs max in 24 but 12.5 is quite typical for her.
Her loose routine this wk is below but is changing because of the EW.
Wu 5am
If night has been really short or long NW I do a CN but if not will push her to as close to 12 as I can
9am 15mins
12ish up to 2hrs
PD at 6 (cannot do any earlier as I work)
Asleep by 6.30 on a good day but can take until 7.30 to get her to sleep.
I've noticed the nights she goes to sleep easier she wakes earlier after about 2hrs but if it's taken forever she will sleep for about 4hrs before waking.
Her canines haven't come through yet and I do think these could be part of the problem (although meds haven't made any difference so maybe not?) but they're taking forever and still no sign of them. I was going to wait until she had these before sleep training again but it's dragging on now so think I need to just bite the bullet and start.
She's spirited so GW doesn't seem to work so will need to do WIWO. The other problem I have is that she can climb out of her cot so this makes it hard as she will keep getting out thinking its funny.
Do I go back to set times even if for part of the week her naps will be short? If so suggestions of times would be helpful as I feel I have no clue at the minute what she needs!
Do I need to cut back on the 2hrs nap the days she's at home as I have noticed the longer NW then?
So many questions and sorry for the ramble!
Thanks
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Hugs lolsyb1982, I remember the 18mo regression which lasted ages and was not fun :( A number of us on the regression support thread at the time found that our LOs had actually had a big jump in A time, and once I finally believed this and acted on it, things really did start to improve.
What do you do with the 5am WU? What happens if you leave her or try and resettle? If she has a rough/short night, have you tried not doing the morning CN, will she then resettle during her nap if she wakes early due to OT? At this age we found that sticking to the same Up time in the mornings, ie trying to resettle or letting him babble in his cot really helped, also sticking to the same nap time and length. If I were you I'd try to gradually bring that morning WU forward in the hope that she would eventually resettle for some more sleep, especially since you're limited in the evening by how early you can get in from work.
As for the nap length, I'd definitely agree that if you notice longer NW with 2h, then cap it. So sorry, DD not napping well have to cut this short!
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Hi trimbler
This 18mo SR is horrific! Has it ever been the death of anyone :P
When she wakes at 5 she just screams and shouts and now that she can climb out the cot she just runs around and wants to chat and play.
She's pretty good with the long A time in the morning and I can usually resettle her at home if she wakes from her nap early but the CM doesn't resettle and I think she feels like she's missing out on something there and so only ever has a short nap even when WU used to be later.
I've been away with work and so she was with grandparents yesterday. MIL didn't do a CN but she was asleep at 11.30-1.30. They then couldn't get her to bed until 7.30. She had a 30min NW and was up at 4.40 this morning with no resettling :o
Today has looked like this
Wu 4.40
Nap 11.20 - only slept 1.5hrs
BT asleep at 6.05
We shall see how the night goes....
Can you remember what your routine looked like once they'd had the jump in A time?
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Ouch :( How's her behaviour during the day, before and after her nap? Do you feel like she's getting all the sleep she needs, just not at the right time? Or is she really tired during the day? Does she sleep any better at night on CM days with the short nap? My hunch is that she needs to move some sleep from the nap to the night, but I may be wrong. Mine doesn't have the same energy as yours and kept his nap much longer than most (only just dropping it now, in fact!), so actually he'd only just done the 2-1 at 18mo so our regression didn't look quite the same and I don't think our routine would be much use to you, even if I could remember it!
The other thing I notice is that the last A time of the day is much shorter than the first - obviously, due to the EW, but I wonder if you pushed it a bit, since she struggles to settle anyway? Actually, if you shortened the nap but kept the same A time as if she'd had a long nap, she should be more tired at BT. Now as to what to shorten it to and what A time to aim for, I'm probably not the best person to advise... As you say, let's see how tonight goes. Would be interesting to know what happens on CM nights, that may help to inform us?
As for IS, have you posted on PUPD? Mine wasn't one for getting out of the cot and running around, but I'm sure the ladies on there will have some good ideas. Hugs, this is a tough one, probably the hardest and longest, but you will get through it and out the other side, keep reminding yourself!
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She's very happy during the day. We're getting lots of tantrums but I assume that's just an age thing although could be more due to OT?
Seems very tired before her nap and usually goes down wilingly and actually tries to climb into her cot some days.
Wakes up happy from her nap and I have to say she never ever seems tired before bed like she does before her nap.
Before the real madness began a week or so ago she would sleep maybe half hour longer at night on a cm day so not quite the amount of lost daytime sleep.
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Slept until 4.10 (10hr) but wouldn't resettle.
She did try for maybe 15 min but didn't manage it and we also tried putting her in with us. She's definitely still tired this morning!
Where do I do with a 4am start? Arrrrgh
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Hugs Lauren this is so hard :( hope you don't mind, I'm not ignoring you but I won't reply to your next post straight away as I'm hoping someone else will notice you're awaiting a reply and jump in! I just haven't had experience of these sorts of issues, as my DS was easier to settle or would at least stay in his cot with EWs, but I know lots of other ladies on here would know just what to do so hopefully one of them will pop on and advise :) I'll continue to follow though. How do you feel about capping that nap and/or pushing out to BT a bit further? I can't help thinking that she gets so refreshed by that nap that she doesn't need to sleep so long at night, but then she's really tired before her nap. My guess would be to start by capping the nap, maybe even to 1h and keep BT at the same time? She should be tired by then, although then of course you risk OT, but I can't help thinking that eventually if she's tired enough she'll have to go back to sleep! You could try your morning catnap to help get back on track, and then just a catnap in the afternoon with normal BT? But to be honest I'm really guessing here so you may be better off posting a quick reply and then see who else answers... Sorry, but these are my best thoughts! You will get there, just keep remembering that :)
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Thanks for sticking with me on the thread!
We have had so many sleep problems with her! Just as we get back to a good routine another wonder week/tooth has come along and disrupted it again :(
I could probably count on 1 hand the no of times we've managed to resettle her! When she was going through the 2-1 we had months of silly early wake ups. Hope they're not going to last that long this time round ::)
Maybe she is lower sleep needs than I think? Problem is she also gets OT very easily too so it's a very fine balance which I rarely seem to get right!!!!
Hopefully someone will read this who has BTDT or knows the best way to fix this...
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Hi Lauren, no BTDT myself, but calling the cavalry for you :)
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Just my experience as EWs are usually OT for us (and sounds like OT for you now too), with a 4am start I would maybe try a morning nap, maybe even in the car for 30mins and then hope she'll still take a long afternoon nap and try a 6:30/7 bedtime depending on nap length. It would make for a crazy long day but hopefully with 2 naps it would hold her over. For us EBTs just perpetuated the EW so I would try to offer more day sleep and a regular bedtime. That was just our experience though.
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Tbh I think you probably need to cap the nap and push out bedtime as crappy as that will be! If she usually only does 12.5/13 hrs in 24 and is taking long naps then I don't think I would expect a long night as well. My DD3 is slsn (my new term = super low sleep needs!) and at 14 months we are down to a 1 hr nap and an 11 hr night (8 pm - 7 am). We get ew's from ut here though!
With the climbing from the cot, do you think she would wear a grobag? That would certainly stop her climbing!
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Ok so yesterday looked like this
Wu 4
Nap in car 9-9.30
Nap 12.45-2
BT 6.30
Wu was 5.30 this morning so much more reasonable. If I could get it to 6 that would be perfect!
What should I try for today then nap time/length and BT? With the aim to get a 6am wu eventually.
I've tried a grobag and was a no go. Despises it! Unfortunately yesterday I found that she had climbed from her cot (her room is tiny so cannot move the position) and was sitting on the window ledge in her room!!! so I think for safety the cot has to go. TBH she's never seemed to like it much anyway so maybe a bed with a gate on her door could work? At least she can get back in it herself!
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Well done :)
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Jumping in with my twopenny-worth...
If 6am start is ideal I would do:
today
nap 12-2
BT 7pm
then tomorrow
WU 5.30/6.00 (FX)
(looking at roughly 7 hr A based on your previous routine)
nap 12.30 - 2.30
(looking at roughly 5hr A time based on your previous routine)
BT 7.30
then day 3
WU 5.30/6.00
nap 1 - 3 move to set nap time
BT 8pm set BT
and from there keep to set nap and BT. If WU settles at 6am and the routine needs a tweak I would then look at:
- capping nap to 1.5hrs
- increasing night by 30 mins (7.30 BT)
one or both of the above based on what her current sleep needs end up being.
My suggestions above are based on 12.5 hrs sleep needs in 24 hrs AND to rapidly move the routine on, I imagine the clock change hasn't helped your situation so the rapid move is do shift her whole routine on - IMO the only way to do this is to grit your teeth and get through it with a set plan. Giving early catch up naps etc, whilst might be nice for her to hold off OT, doesn't help her to re-establish a decent routine, you actually need some OT to get her on to the new routine times. Tracy's advise on keeping LO awake until the right nap time was to do a fan dance if necessary. I'd do that.
(FWIW my DS needed a full 2hr nap, he was awful without it, so I had to accept 10 to 10.5hr night which in turn means accepting a later BT and less Y time...but you get to sleep until 6am instead of being up at 4 something!)
Oh and WRT to getting a shorter nap at CMs, I would still do set nap and BT, having a shorter nap some days is what some people do anyway, capping on certain days and not on others, she will either sleep longer for the nap or will need waking in the morning at 6am which will indicate the need for a tweak in either nap or BT but I'd wait until she showed she was sleeping in late before tweaking.
Just my thoughts. hope something there helps x
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Hi Creations
A plan is definitely what I need and I love set times as it saves all the constant second guessing, I just needed someone to give me a starting point so thank you. I don't think I would have ever thought to push it forward like that but I know that 15min increments do nothing for her so was always going to need something a little more drastic.
She really wanted to go to sleep at 11 and kept lying on the sofa but kept her going. It's taken a while to fall asleep but went quiet at 12.20 so will do 2hrs and BT for 7.20.
Once we get to the set nap/BT in a few days how long do you think I should keep it at before assessing if it's working or needs tweaking? A week?
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A week would be good, yes
If it is blatantly obvious that she is too tired then possibly tweak after say 4 days, for instance if you have to wake her every morning because it's gone 6am and you need to get out to work or whatever then it would be clear she needed a slightly earlier BT. But with caution, yk. You don't want to do it too soon because of those days where she short naps, they need to become her routine, shorter naps some days, longer other days and overall well rested.
Hope you see some movement soon.
(FWIW 15 min changes didn't help my DS, he just lost 15 mins sleep so because very OT and still woke early, he needs big shifts over fewer days so the OT comes on rapidly and forces his body clock to reset/move on. It can look miserable for a couple of days but for us it is so much more successful and he loses less sleep overall)
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Was asleep at 7.20 and went to sleep all by herself! First time in weeks!!!! :D
Will report back in a few days to let you know how it's going!
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Great stuff :)
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Brilliant well done both of you :)
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Ugh awake at 5.15 so only a 10hr night.
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Hugs Lauren how frustrating :( Can't help thinking that she may just be lsn and need that shorter nap as Heidi suggested, although of course you may still want to keep going with the current plan for a bit longer as creations suggested rather than changing things too soon... Sorry - really just replying for support, you should probably wait and see what the others say as I've not really btdt other than noticing that my DS had big jumps in A time at this age, I was so convinced he was OT when actually he was UT, which I realised as his behaviour was actually normal and not tired during the day. Keep going, you'll get there :)
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Thanks for stopping by :)
Yeah with 10hrs I can never tell if UT or OT. She has rubbed her eyes a few times this morning so possibly OT. I know when she's really OT as we get 9hr nights so if we get there I know it'll be a sure sign.
Will stick with the plan for a while and see how she goes. Tomorrow will be a short nap day as she's at the cm so will be interesting to see how we get on from say Tuesday.
Roll on when naps are no more!
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IMO (but I'm not there and don't know exactly when the EWs started and all the ins and outs, but...) the 5.15am WU is her body clock setting, it would have been 6.15 had the clocks not changed. My guess is she IS going to be OT from a night shorter than she needs BUT that you need that OT for your routine change to work. I would keep going. She was good and tired for BT which is a good thing, just didn't sleep past her body clock setting.
Even if she can only do a 10 hr night (and 2hr nap, with sleep needs dropping to 12 hrs in 24) you can still have a balanced and well rested routine with BT at 8pm and WU at 6am. My guess is she'll do 10.5hr night in the end though.
So looking at 12.30 or later for the nap and 7.30 or later for BT today. (Will CM do nap at 1pm if you ask for tomorrow?)
Hang in there
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Yep completely get what you're saying. She lasted until 12.30 far better than I thought actually and went to sleep in her BGB with no fuss which I thought there might be being so it's her first time !
Will do 7.30 bed. The cm usually does her nap close to 1 anyway so that won't be a problem.
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Success with the BGB - great!
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Me again...
Im unsure whether to carry on as we are for a few more days or if I should bring BT a little earlier... She's having a NW (that's not new though but I don't know what's causing it?) and is waking still at 4.30ish... Although she's not trying to get up then and I am able to resettle her but it can take 30ish mins and then she's sleeping until about 6/6.15. I woke her this morning by getting ready.
It's the waking at 4.30 that's the problem as with the time to resettle she's not getting even 10hrs. What I don't want to do though is bring it forward too much, she still wakes at 4.30 and then has had that little bit more sleep and then decides it's time to get up.
What do you think, stick with 8 bed or try 7.30?
Here are the last few days
Sat
Wu 5.30
Nap 12.20-2.10
BT 7.20
NW
Sun
Wu 5.15
Nap 12.30-2.05
BT pd 7 - asleep 8 (lots of tossing and turning so OT?)
NW & awake just before 5 but back to sleep
Mon
Wu 6.30
Nap 45 mins
BT 7.45
Tue
Wake 4.30. Resettle 5.10-6.10
Nap 1-2
BT 8
NW - didn't look at the clock but wasn't too long to resettle.
Wed
Wu 4.30 resettle 5ish-6.15
From tomorrow she will be at home so her nap will lengthen again so might need to stay as 8?
It's such a fine balance isn't it this day/night sleep business! Never realised how hard it would be to get it right!
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OK, where you are this probably feels just awful, waking at 4-somthing or 5 and resettling for 30 mins does not feel nice at all, but from where I am (safely looking at times on a computer screen) it looks like everything is going in the right direction. Being able to resettle a 4-somthing NW is better than a EW. I see those NWs as habitual, you will teach her to sleep through it.
I would hold where you are for now: set nap 1pm (whether short or long) and set BT 8pm.
Whilst you *do* ultimately want to offer her more than 10hrs night sleep (prob more like 10.5/11hrs) so BT will move earlier, I do not think now is the right time to move it, not just yet. If you continue at 8pm and resettling the NW she is learning to stay asleep and to wake for the day later, this is what you need and I'm afraid it does involve some OT to get her there. Obviously you are front line and know your LO so all decisions are down to you, I'm only suggesting based on where you are and where you want to get to.
The end plan as I see it will be to have set nap and BT which offers her roughly 12.5hrs sleep in 24hrs.
On CM days she short naps so may get say 11/11.5hrs - if she wants more sleep she will nap longer or lie in in the morning
On home days she long naps so may get say 12.5/13hrs - the extra nap time may balance out what she loses in nap time at CM
Whilst 8pm BT is only offering 10hrs (8pm - 6am) she still has the option to sleep all night, wake later in the morning, nap longer.
Eventually, perhaps in a few more days you can bring BT to 7.45pm then 7.30pm to offer a 10.5hr night with a 6am WU. If at that point she still needs more sleep you could bring BT to 7.15pm edging the night longer to (hopefully) maintain the WU.
Hope this makes sense. I really feel for you with the EW/NWs. BTDT, hated 5am, hated 4.30 even more, hated clock change...but you can and will get through it :)
ah - one last thing you might like to try is a W2S in the night. Either an hour before her habitual NW (so 3.30am ish? doesn't sound inviting does it? tbh never worked for my DS but I see it's been a winner for many) or when you go to bed go in and disturb her slightly to kick start a new sleep cycle, this can help even though it's several hours off the NW.
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I felt we were heading in the right direction I just wanted a few words of encouragement I suppose that it was kind of starting to work.
I did think of w2s this morning actually but I don't know if I can face it. Trying when I go to bed may help to stop the earlier wu around 11/12 though.
Will assess again at the weekend.
Thanks for your help with this :D
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I did think of w2s this morning actually but I don't know if I can face it.
I know what you mean! I tried a couple of times in the middle of the night, gritted my teeth and forced myself up...but DS just woke earlier the next night so I missed the W2S time and when I set my alarm early for night 3 he woke even earlier and missed it again! It just wasn't the thing for us. I must say though W2S for naps was a life saver with the 2-1 transition, we literally wouldn't have survived without it.