Author Topic: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)  (Read 2165 times)

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Offline malialeanne

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Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« on: March 05, 2007, 16:01:57 pm »
I'm hoping someone can offer help, DH and I are losing hope...:(

DD is 3 months/13 wks. I started pt/sh training with at 5 weeks. By 9-10 weeks, all seemed to be going well. Daytime sleep is still OK. She goes down for naps with a 5 min winddown and usually no patting or fussing. I have been able to extend some naps by going in a gently patting at the 20-min mark, and we are still working on that.

It's the nighttime sleep that's the real problem. Pat/shh never really "took hold" for nighttime--it was a nightmare trying to do it for bedtime, she would scream and scream until I took Tracy's advice and offered food after 45 minutes--she would usually only calm down at that point and fall asleep at the breast. It never seemed to be that big of a deal, though, since she never had days mixed for nights, never really wanted to be "awake" in the nighttime. She woke for feeds and that's it, so I assumed she would drop feeds as time went on and that would be that. Up to about 10 weeks we had a fairly stable nighttime pattern of 2 feeds around 2 and 5 a.m., and she would go back to sleep immediately (usually asleep or nearly asleep when I put her down after feedings).

At 9.5 weeks she actually slept a 9-hour stretch and a couple of 7-hour stretches. We were ecstatic! Then, I took her on a weekend trip at 10 weeks and it kind of unraveled. She did OK on the trip, I was able to stick pretty closely to her routine. On the trip we had one really bad bedtime during which she was awake for her longest strech to date--6 hours. I chalked that up to overstimulation and overtiredness.

Fast forward to now. She is waking 4-5 times at night and becomes hysterical if she is not nursed or fed, is difficult to settle if not fed, then will either not go to sleep easily after being fed, or will wake 30 mins to 1 hour later. All totaled, she is spending about 4 hours of every night awake, much of it crying.

Several things have changed recently. I moved her bedtime up from about 8:30 - 9 p.m. to 7 (she was takinig two evening catnaps to get her through to 9 p.m., now that her waketime between naps has increased her bedtime naturally moved up when we dropped the second catnap). Since she slept those long stretches at 9 weeks and was often feeding for just a couple of minutes during night wakings, I felt we could start trying to drop one nighttime feed. I went back to work March 1, so DH has been trading off nighttime duty with me so I can get some sleep. I also introduced a dreamfeed at 10 because of the earlier bedtime, but it seems to make things worse so we are phasing that out now (feeding smaller amounts earlier and earlier--just started that plan last night).

Swaddling is just not working out anymore. She gets out of everything. Often when she wakes she has at least one arm out, but I don't know for sure if that's what's causing the waking. I started using the Miracle Blanket last week, but it doesn't work for us. If anything it's worse--she still gets out, but has a ton more fabric bunched around her making her hot and uncomfortable. If she can get out of the MB I don't know what else to do, but I can't see her sleeping unswaddled. I don't know if we should invest in yet another swaddle product or just cut our losses and try and wean the swaddle--a scary thought!!!

She doesn't respond well to pat/sh in the nighttime now--she arches her back and screams. She will sometimes settle if given a paci, but not always and I feel we are dangerously close to having a paci addiction on top of everything else. She does not use a paci for daytime sleeps.

So we are dealing with several issues--a possible suck-to-sleep association, since she has been fed at bedtime and at nearly every waking (or else given a paci) , swaddling, dropping dreamfeed, and trying to drop a night feeding. I am positive she is being overfed at night, causing conditioned hunger and habitual wakings. On DH's nights with her, I have had to get up to nurse her because he cannot get her to settle, so neither of us are getting much sleep. DH is also getting very discouraged, feels he is failing his daddy duties because he has to come and get me. I am so sleep deprived I don't know how to sort this all out and what issue to tackle first.

Her daytime routine has been very stable for the past two weeks: feed at 7, 10, 1, 3:30, 5:30 (short feed after waking from catnap) and 7 (bedtime); 80-90 minute A time including wind-down, 1.5 hour naps and 30 minute catnap. It doesn't matter if I swaddle before or after the bedtime feed or try and keep her awake, she almost always falls asleep during the bedtime feed. She also wants to nurse for a very long time at this feed--up to 40 or 50 minutes, whereas daytime feeds take 20 minutes.

She then wakes sometimes as early as 11 p.m., then every hour or two after that. I don't think she is reverse cycling--she takes plenty of food in the daytime.

It's so discouraging because we've worked so hard at sleep training and at stabilizing her daytimes, and are still having so many night problems at this point. If anyone has made it through this far and can offer any advice, it's welcome! We're desperate.
Malia



Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2007, 22:24:14 pm »
It seems pretty apparent to me that she has developed a suck/feed to sleep association.  :(  How much does she take at night when you offer food? It's hard to say what the best way to work out that habit would be. Normally PU/PD would be a good tool but she's too young for that technique. It's interesting that pat/shhh worked for daytime but not nighttime. Curious.

Your routine sounds good to me so I don't think you need to make any adjustments there.  :)  As for the swaddling though, I think that you should try the Aussie swaddle. You don't have to buy anything, you just need a large sheet or blanket. Instructions for it are in the Props forum under FAQs. That might help you.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline malialeanne

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2007, 23:28:57 pm »
I think you're right, or at least very close to it--she definitely expects (demands) to be fed at every waking. :( I'm afraid I have turned her into a nighttime snacker by feeding at every waking, whether she woke once or 4 times. It never used to be a big problem, though, because we rarely had more than 2 wakings per night. Now that we're trying to drop or at least limit nighttime feeds, she seems to be waking more and more. Her night feeds are generally around 10 minutes or less (she is ebf).

The thing is although she is asleep or very nearly asleep when she finishes the bedtime feed she always rouses when I put her down, sighs, tosses around a bit, sometimes fusses for about 5 minutes or so, then falls asleep on her own. I never have to pick her up, re-feed, or anything.

Day and night sleep are controlled by different parts of the brain (I am obessed with baby sleep and have read every book I can find on the subject) which is why our days and nights are so different. I know the reason that pt/sh didn't work at night--when we first began pt/sh bedtimes were horrible, probably because of overtiredness. At bedtime when I got to the 45 min point and she was still crying, I would do what Tracy says and stop to feed her, then try again. We would continue that cycle until she basically fell asleep at the breast. Then I moved bedtime up and introduced a bedtime feeding. Then, for nighttime feedings, pt/sh was never needed because she always went right back to sleep.

She is a very happy girl during the day--but at night lately we have a demanding, howling beast! Now that she is an older, more stong-willed baby, patting seems to upset her more at times. We just really need to find a way to settle her w/o feeding. 


Malia



Offline malialeanne

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2007, 23:32:25 pm »
Oh, I noticed you're from WA--us too! We're originally from the Seattle area but are now in Eastern WA.
Malia



Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2007, 23:35:31 pm »
Does she have a lovey? A blanket, stuffed animal, or something to that effect? If not this might be a good time to introduce one.

At her age, it's totally normal to have at least one night feed. The key will be figuring out at what time it's necessary as opposed to habit. You might also consider cluster feeding in the evening since you're eliminating the DF. The DF made things worse for us too so I bagged it and clusterfed, and that worked very well for Colin. I also could never do a traditional pat/shhh with him either - the patting made him nuts. Instead he laid on his back with one of our arms across his knees and the other across his chest (not really pushing down KWIM) and shhhing. You might consider trying something like that instead...?

Where in Eastern WA are you?!!?
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
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Offline malialeanne

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2007, 23:44:14 pm »
I totally expect to feed at least once per night for a while longer, esp since we are dropping the DF. Like you said, we just need to figure out when that feed is and feed when she is truly hungry, then figure out how to resettle the rest of the times. I do a version of cluster feeding, I feed at 3:30 -4, then again after catnap around 5:30, then at 7 (bedtime).

Is she old enough for a lovey? Since she is swaddled at nighttime she can't grab onto anything...

We're in Pullman--go Cougs! We went to WSU, moved away, returned for grad school and have never left. :)
Malia



Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2007, 23:57:45 pm »
I'm having a hard time remembering what our night feed schedule was when Colin was 3 months, but I think at that point it was two feeds at 1am and 4am. Something similar anyway.  :-\   

Oh yeah, forgot about her being swaddled at night  ::)  The blanket you swaddle in may become a lovey - that's what happened with Colin.

Pullman huh? Wow! Both my mother and Aunt were Cougs and they weren't too amused with me when I didn't go there.  ;)
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline malialeanne

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2007, 00:41:29 am »
Yeah, Cougs are like that. :)

Today's naps have been GREAT--I used the MB and kept her feet in instead of leaving them out. That helps the blanket stay on much better and it doesn't get so hot and bunchy. I'll try that tonight and hopefully that will help her stay more comfortable. If we can keep the swaddle a while longer that's one less issue we have to deal with for now...

Tonight I will be very careful that she does not fall asleep during the bedtime feed.

Tonight's "my" night, we'll see how it goes. Thanks for your help.
Malia



Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2007, 00:45:01 am »
Let me know!!
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
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Offline malialeanne

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2007, 16:58:48 pm »
Last night I cut her bedtime feeding to 30 minutes and put her down EYES OPEN. I patted for about 3 minutes and she was fine. Last night we also stopped the df cold turkey (no more "phasing it out") and swaddled her feet in the MB. We seemed to get back to a more normal pattern. She slept from 7:30 - 1:45 (ate for 15 minutes), woke at 4 (ate for 15 minutes) and then woke off and on from 5:30 - 7. I ended up giving a short feeding at 6 a.m. because she wouldn't settle and I had to get ready for work. Afterward she seemed very alert and I wasn't sure what to do with her, so I put her in her crib and she fell right back to sleep. :) She squawked a couple of times between 6:15 and 7, but every time I went to check on her she was asleep. I then woke her at 7:15 to start the day and she took another feeding.

So overall, it was a fairly decent night compared to the nights we've been having. I would love to eliminate the 5:30 waking as it can really throw off the day's schedule. She wakes at 5:30 or 6 probably 50% of the time and it's often hard to get her back to sleep even if she is fed. She does seem to expect to be fed at every waking, but she doesn't need to feed-to-sleep or suck-to-sleep, so that's a relief.
Malia



Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: Multiple nighttime problems, please help!!! (long)
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2007, 18:40:34 pm »
Wow, that's great!!  ;D  ;D  One step at a time. Let her adjust to not eating so much at night and then if she's still waking early sometimes, try wake to sleep.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o