BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: morvayc on October 07, 2014, 13:15:16 pm
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I don't even know where to begin! Since this is my first time posting, I'll give a brief history on my LO:
-approaching 8.5 months
-from 8 weeks to 6 months exclusively napped 30 minutes!
-only slept until 7am a handful of times since birth
-daytime sleep averages 1hour45 minutes-2 hours 30 minutes/day....total sleep/day averages 12-13.5hours
-began sttn at approx. 6 months, from 645pm-615am (only lasted a few weeks)
-EWs began at about 7 months.....and we're talking in the 4am range! (only recently has this crept up to approx 5am)
-If I am able to settle in the morning, it takes about ah hour. I have resorted to feeding and medicating her at these EWs
-have attempted all bedtimes, but it seems that past 7pm, results in even earlier wakings
-EBT and SEBT result in even earlier or the same wake up time, with little chance of resettling.
-super happy baby.......super exhausted mom! ( had a full blown cry on hubby's shoulder this morning when the coffee maker decided not to work)
Is this baby truly a lark and LSN or am I doing something wrong. Please help!
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Can you post his current EAS hun so I can look?
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Thank you so much for taking a look! I will post the last three days, but I have to say that the days vary like crazy, so I haven't included feed times. She is formula fed, and has 4 feedings/day. I medicate before bed and feed/medicate for NWs, due to teething.
SATURDAY
A-6:40-up for the day (after early wakings and resettling)
S-9:30-10:00 (30 minutes)
A-2hr55min
S-12:55-2:25 (1 hour 30 min)
A-3hr55min
S-asleep for the night by 6:20
NW-12:50-1:50
NW-5:20-6:20
up for the day at 7:45
SUNDAY
A-7:45 up for the day (after early waking and resettling)
S-10:35-11:50 (1hr 15min)
A-3hr 25min
S-30 min
A-3hrs
S-asleep for the night by 6:45
NW-5:15-6:20
up for the day at 6:50
MONDAY
A-6:50 up for the day (after early waking and resettling)
S-10:10-12:10 (2hrs......very rare)
A-3hrs30 min
S-3:45-4:30 (45 min)
A-2hrs55min)
S-asleep for the night by 7:25
NW-5:00-5:35
NW-5:55-6:05
up for the day at 6:40
Like I said in my previous post, she averages between 12-13.5 total sleep hrs/day....I haven't seen 14 hrs sleep in months.
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My DD3 is lsn (extremely so) so keep in mind I am coming from that perspective! We went to one nap at 7.5 months which solved our ew/nw issues (not saying this is your solution but just a thought). We get 12 hours total most days and have done for quite some time now.
I kind of wonder if the first nap being the longer one is adding to the ew. I wonder if a bit more A time and capping the morning nap and bringing the second on a bit sooner might work? Sort of a start to the 2-1 shift. Or just push out the morning nap until there is no need for the catnap. Average A times vary but are 3-4 hrs for this age group, we were def over and above that.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
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I was hoping someone with a LSN LO would respond, so many many thanks! I have been thinking a great deal about attempting the one nap/day situation, I'm just terrified. I feel like such a terrible mother, because I really have absolutely no idea whether we're in this situation because of extreme OT or extreme UT. I just can't read her sleepy cues, because I really feel like she has none! This is why her A times have been around 3-3.5 hours. I'm just going by the recommended times for her age group, but she could very well be capable of much more. If you don't mind me asking a zillion questions, I'd love to know how your story unfolded. Were you in a similar situation, and just decided one day to try one nap, or were you already on a quite high A times before attempting it? How long did it take your LO to "normalize?" With a 12 hours sleep max, what did your EASY look like at this age? I really appreciate any and all help here.
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Ask away! I kind of realized she was lsn between 3-4 months of age as we dropped to two naps by four months. So one nap was a natural progression as it became harder and harder to get a catnap in and still get a good night. Our EASY has been the same for awhile...
6:30/7:00 wake up
12:30/1:00 nap for an hour (had been longer but nights got shorter!)
8:00 bedtime
We do play naps by ear - if teething or illness is a factor I let her sleep a bit more and if we get nw's oh well.
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Just wanted to post to say I could have written your post when J was your LO's age. In fact we had our first one nap day at 8.5 months. I too had been keeping him on the high side of average A times until then and he'd been doing the same as your LO. I dragged it out cos I still wasn't sure and I think he settled firmly onto one nap as he turned 10 months. I should have done it earlier tbh, but I wanted to be sure he was ready for it. I'm now in the exact same situation with the 1-0...
I found with J he preferred a long first A, so that helped with our EWs. But I know some other LSN LOs like longer afternoons. I think I figured it out cos after trying a longer first A, I eventually saw the occasional tired sign in the afternoon, and better nights. Otherwise there just weren't any. I also thought I was missing them til I started keeping him up a bit and then occasionally saw that his tired signs were actually very obvious, he just rarely got tired. On the plus side, if his A times are about right then he's very good at self regulating, and OT is rarely a problem in that he rarely gets OT and if he does he gets over it quickly. On the downside we're very familiar with 5.30am cos if things aren't right he starts EWing....
Anyway, I'm sure Heidi will be able to help you figure out if your LO is lsn or not, and find a routine that suits her. I just wanted to say that I'm on my second lsn LO and I still hadn't got J totally sussed at 8 months, so don't beat yourself up about it :)
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I so very much appreciate both of you responding. I'm feeling totally lost here, and if I obsess about this child's sleep for one more second, I think I'm going to go insane! How do you really know if your LO is LSN and it's not just a product of something you are doing....or not doing? It's so hard for me to tell, because as I mentioned earlier, her naps were strictly 30 minutes up until about 6 months...and even now, that's what we get about 50% of the time. So when everyone talks about dropping/ not dropping catnaps and such, I'm so lost, because our "cat nap" was our "nap nap" if you know what I'm saying lol. Currently, I seem to be getting one longer nap of anywhere between 1 hour and 1.5 hours, and then a 30 minute nap in the afternoon. These have been based on A times of between 3 and 3.5 hours. I really don't know if she could go longer, but currently she doesn't really show any tired signs at this time. If OT is indeed the cause of all this nonsense, then the last thing I want to do is push her further iykwim. What do you two recommend my next step to be?
oodles and oodles of thanks!
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Popping in as i also am struggling with the same as you. Do not have time right now but will be back here soon to tell you what's the story for us!
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HUGS!
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I only have a minute, on the way to work...my question would be how is her mood during the day? E was always so awake and happy (well except for teething times!) and also does not show tired signs until she has been up for ages past "normal" A times. I pushed her A out when she was small for a couple of days with the thinking that if it all went to pot she probably was not lsn and if she handled it fine then she probably was - if things had gone into ot territory I imagine I would have used any ap to get her back on track but with a third baby I tend to do a lot of ap anyways!
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Super happy LO 99% of the time....which is half the problem I think. I was just telling my DH this morning, that in some ways, I wished she was a grumpier baby. That way I could tell when she was tired or whatnot. I actually think that when she is extremely OT, she becomes more excitable, which is easily mistaken for super happy. It's all so confusing, isn't it? LO had a particularly awful night of only 9.5hrs, and was up almost every hour in tears....which is abnormal for her. Normally when we get NWs, they are few, but prolonged. She was up for the day at 5am, and would not resettle. I was so frustrated and didn't have it in me to fight the battle iykwim, so we just got up. I kept her up for 3hrs30minutes, and she didn't wake at the 30 minute mark, so I'm thinking that she could probably do more after a good night's sleep? Do you recall what your A times and schedule were like at roughly 8.5 months? I guess I'm just looking for reassurance that I'm not totally messing this up.
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I've just had a look back and we were well into nap capping at 8.5 - 9 months. I was getting short (1hr) naps on around 4hrs A and a long nap on 4hrs 45 A. The trouble with Jack was that a long nap for him was 1hr 20 - 1hr 40, so we couldn't fully move to 1 nap on that A time. He's never regularly slept more than 10.5 - 11hrs at night. So we were alternating 1 and 2 nap days. Our two nap days looked like this: a 20 - 30 minute nap after 3hrs 30 / 4 hrs A time, then another 3.5 hrs A max, then a 1hr 20 nap and then another 3.5 - 4 hrs to bed. We were switching things around a lot though - J was quickly upping his A time at this age.
Jack is also always happy :) The way I could tell he was lsn was partly through realising that no matter what I did, his total sleep was always lower than the lowest range of "normal". Plus, through a lot of experimentation I saw he slept better as I increased his A time. I was very cautious about it though, and only increased one at a time and logged every sleep
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Our "long" naps are also 1hr20-1hr40, with the very odd 2hr nap about once a month. Would you suggest I try to have the long nap in the afternoon as opposed to the morning? I've been letting her sleep as long as she wants in the morning, because the afternoon nap has never been a guarantee, but I have also done the long afternoon nap. Either way, it doesn't seem to solve the EWs. If indeed, she is only capable of a certain amount of night sleep, I have attempted a later bedtime, ie. 730, but it always results in an even earlier wake up. Did the one nap days instantly translate to a "normal" wake up time, or did it take some time?
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Tbh my memory is the pits now...I don't think it was instant but it did not take that long (maybe a week or so) to get things mostly where I hoped them to be. She is still the earliest riser of us all but now I stick a hand in her room and flick the light on quick and leave her play while I chug my coffee. Her sleep from 6 am on is restless if she naps too much (days when I have so much to do I just let her nap extra come back to haunt me!).
My kids all get excitable when OT, no one ever believes me they are tired. DD3 gets downright wacky!
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Is the theory that they will wake later in the morning(hopefully) on one nap, because they are getting less daytime sleep with one nap, and are therefore making up the lost sleep, or that they are getting more A time throughout the day, so are therefore more tired at night? I was wondering, because what if they wind up sleeping the same amount during the day? ie, rather than 3hours divided into two naps, they do one long 3 hr nap?
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I think the reason for a better night depends on the kid - for DD2 (average sleep needs) she did a 3 hour nap and had good nights so it was more about longer A times. DD3 however seems to need less sleep to get good nights which does result in high A times so sort of the same thing.
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Hey ladies,
Still in the thick of it here, with far too early wake up times. I'm convinced that LO is only capable of 10.5 hrs of night sleep...max! She can nap anywhere between 1.5 and 2.5 hours per day, and nothing seems to change the early wake up.....except if she happens to give me two longish naps in a day. Then we are up in the 4am range instead of the 5am range! I am really stuck in this early to bed, early to rise cycle, and don't know how to get out of it. If she is really set on a 10ish hour night, I feel like the only thing I can do, is push bedtime to 8pm. How do I do this, without offering the catnap (which was apparently contributing to the early wake up)? Currently, she is usually asleep by 645pm, and up between445-5am, with her second nap of the day ending between 230-3pm. No matter the time between second nap and bedtime, she is always energetic, and never seems sleepy, but I don't know that pushing her past 4 hrs A time at the end of the day, is a good thing. To compound the problem, we are heading toward daylight savings in about 2 weeks. I really can't handle a 3am wake up! Desperate for some help here. ps...LO is now 8.5months.
Thanks, ladies
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I know I found at this age that we got EW if J's last nap finished any later than 2.30. Would a short AM nap work for you? Something like:
WU: 5
Nap 1: 8.30 - 9
Nap 2: 3.5 - 4hrs later at 12.30 / 1. Either uncapped, or wake by 2.30.
BT: 7
You probably also need to shift BT if she is lsn. You could let her nap slightly longer for her first nap (45 minutes), and then give 4hrs A afterwards and let her sleep untapped. Then I'd push BT back at whatever rate you dare.... I had to do it with J at around this age and I went cold turkey. OT was starting to build by the third day cos his WU was the same, so he was doing very long days for a bit. But on the third night he caught up, slept in and his body clock was shifted :) Once it's shifted you can hopefully have a slightly shorter day if you find the right routine.
Heidi - what do you think? I don't want to give conflicting advice....
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Thank you for the speedy response! I have a few questions. Should I bother trying to resettle in the morning? I find I can only accomplish it about 50% of the time. It usually takes about an hour, and I only wind up getting an additional 30 minutes sleep. Was Jack already at 4 hours A time when you tried this, or did you just change his schedule without looking back? I worry about the long afternoon nap, as our long naps only seem to be about 1hr 15-20minutes....which would leave us with a long time until BT.
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I wouldn't bother resettling if it takes that long tbh. I used to find it depressing, and we only ever got 35 minutes more sleep too. That always meant UT for us.
I can't remember what A time he was on when I tried the above routine I'm afraid - we were a bit all over the place with short nights which didn't really end til we were through the 2-1. I just tried lots of things, watched how it went over a few days and then tried something else!
What sort of A times are you on at the moment? Have you tried shortening them to rule out OT?
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Our A times range anywhere from 3-4hrs, usually the longest are the first and last, with the shortest being in the middle. Like I've said before, I could be getting it all wrong due to the lack of tired signs. To add to the confusion, I seem to get the funkiest nap times....like 1hr5min or 55 min. Long naps are usually 1hr20min. In looking at your previous posts to me, you said that you had your first one nap day at around this age. Should I just go for it? I have tried shorter A times, but given her early wakings, shortening A times, either leads to needing a catnap or a SEBT.....both end in early early wake ups. I just can't win with this child. Do you think God blesses type A personalities with these LOs to mellow us out? ;)
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It sounds like your LO is very similar to jack. His middle A was always his shortest too, and if his first A was too long he'd really pull back on the second. Once we got through the 2-1 he certainly did mellow me out cos I accepted him as lsn after that!
If you want to try a one nap day, what you could do is push his first A to 4 - 4.5 hrs (whatever you think she can handle), let her nap uncapped and resettle if you think she's woken OT (e.g. If you push her to 4.5hrs A and she then does a 30 minute nap). Then see how she goes. If you think you can get in a 20 minute cat nap at 2 / 2.30ish then do, if not then push through to a 6.30 / 6.45 bedtime. It might be worth trying to shift your day to a later BT and later WU first though, or you're going to end up with a very long day otherwise, and probably an early start the next day. Though I tend to find jack can handle being really pushed for a day.
What do you think?
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So, I took your advice for yesterday, with some modifications. I just get so paranoid when I see eye rubbing, that I tend to jump the gun on sleep iykwim! So the day went like this.....
5am-WU
nap 1-815-845 (3hrs15min A)
nap 2-1210-205 (yousers! rarely see these) (3hrs25min A)
asleep for the night by 615 (4hrs10min A)
no NWs, and up for the day at 505am (which is still way too early, but she had a 10hr50min night, which hasn't happened in ages. I will try to push out the morning nap today, to at least 3hrs30min, which will hopefully push BT to 645-7pm. I'm wondering if the almost 2hr afternoon nap and longer night was just a fluke? We'll see today. Thanks so much for your help here :)
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That looks like a fab day (albeit running a little earlier on WU and BT than you'd like).
You might find OT has built but cos she's been going down for naps and BT early, she's not been able to get past it without an A time push. You might see a day or two of longer naps and nights while she catches up, before things go back to normal and naps shorten a bit again. You might then need another slight A push after that. At least that's how it goes with Jack. But see how she goes. I'd hold roughly those A times and focus on shifting the day if anything, like you're planning.
Fingers crossed it all works again today :)
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Sorry ladies - was away for the weekend and now struck down by a lovely cold! I agree with shifting the day before trying out one nap(unless it all goes to pot somehow!). Hopefully the great nap and night were not a fluke.
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Sorry about the cold :( I am a former teacher, so was normally plagued with something awful come September. I haven't yet been ill with this baby, but I can't imagine how you ladies do it, let alone with kiddies plural! So first nap today went wonky. I put her down after 3hrs30min A time, and she only slept for 20minutes. I don't know what that might mean, as it's not a normal happening. Should I still try for 3.5-4hrs for the second nap? I think I may just have to, because I am in no way guaranteed another 2 hour second nap, and then I'll be too far to bedtime not to do a catnap.
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I would guess probably OT for that first nap.... :-\ Maybe try closer to 3.5hrs for that second A, and if she does a shorter nap I'd either try and resettle (depending on nap length), or just hold out to an EBT and pull back a bit on that first A again tomorrow.
Hope you feel better soon, Heidi :)
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Thanks ladies! I just hope DH doesn't get it because a man cold is the worst ever!
Yeah the nap does sound ot - I would for sure try anything to resettle if she wakes up early for her second nap.
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If anyone is out there, what should I do??? She woke from second nap after 1hr15min, at 145pm. What do I do now???
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If you are trying to shift the day I would almost want to do a short catnap and push bedtime out. Only other option would be an ebt.
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Both seem to lead to early wakings, so I don't know :'( If I do ebt, what time would you suggest? If I do catnap, when and how long, and then how long until bt? Sorry for all the questions.
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Tbh we have never done an ebt, they kind of scare me! How did it end up playing out?
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So....wound up doing a catnap from 330-4pm, asleep for the night by 7pm. The night was a total disaster! She was up every half hour after 830. I never had to intervene, but she was completely unsettled. I finally gave up hope at 545am and got up with her. I really can't explain whether it was the catnap or something completely unrelated. Maybe you can help me understand this. Hypothetically speaking, whether she slept a total of 2.5 hours during the day, split between 2 or 3 naps, all sleep ending by 4pm, should it really matter? Maybe I missed that part of the book????
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If she was unsettled all night it sounds like something other than ut - teeth or an oncoming illness maybe. As for the hours total, for some kids I am sure that it may not make a difference but for others they need that long awake time to be able to have a good night sleep. Sort of like if an adult started napping where they really didnt need to and started waking at night, having trouble going to sleep etc because they need that awake time to be really long for them to be able to sleep at night in one continuous chunk.
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What time did she wake up? How long in total did she slept? You can either do a short catnap or do an EBT but ... I am not the fan:).
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She wound up waking at 5am, but I left her until 545. As for total sleep, I would normally be able to tell you, but as she was up every half hour all night, I really couldn't say. I don't think the catnap works for us. I don't know if it's just coincidence, but every time we've tried it because we've had an early wake up from second nap, it's been disastrous. I think Heidi may be right, in that she may be an LO who needs a long A time before bed. Who really knows? I'm finishing up wonder week 37, so perhaps the restless night sleeps and NWs will be done for a little bit. Here's to hoping!
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I get the idea with a long A till BT but it usually works when LO sleeps 1,5-2h at second/mid-afternoon A and I don't know how it works for you but for us it's almost not achieveable... Maybe as a catchup nap after week in the nursery or when he is exhausted...
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I know what you mean! Yesterday (after the awful night's sleep), she gave me 2x1hr20min naps, which rarely rarely happens, so we did 3hrs50min A before bed. In the back of my mind, I knew I would somehow be punished for having 2 good naps, and sure enough, we had a 1 hr NW last night. So in total, she got about 10hrs10min night sleep, which unfortunately, is pretty typical these days. EBTs almost certainly lead to early wakeups, and I'm desperate to stop them. It's not like I'm hoping for something unrealistic. 6am would be a dream. So even if she pulls a 30 minute afternoon nap, I'm going to see if she can go the 4hrs to bed. I'm always terrified of OT, but I've tried everything else.
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Fingers crossed it goes ok. UT has always given us far more problems than OT, so if your LO is the same you might find she handles it ok. Let us know how she gets on :)
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Fingers crossed it goes ok. UT has always given us far more problems than OT, so if your LO is the same you might find she handles it ok. Let us know how she gets on :)
Same here!
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Well, after a 40 minute morning nap, I attempted to put LO down after about 3hours A......then again at 3hrs20min.....and 4hrs later, my DH is driving her around the city. He couldn't stand all the crying. I thought to myself, "welcome to my world", but was appreciative to have some of that Y time that I never seem to get. So it's very rare to have a refusal of such monumental proportions. She normally eventually gives in. Regardless of how long DH gets her to nap, is my night shot anyway? How did your LOs react after meltdowns? PS....it's REEEEEAAAAALLLYYY frustrating that she falls asleep in the car, 3 seconds after the ride starts (DH just texted me).
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Jack does that as well ::) And we've also had 40 minute naps followed by all out nap refusal as well. What sort of A time gave you a 40 minute nap?
Have you tried doing 3hr 15, then a capped nap, then 3hr 30 and 4hrs A again, seeing as that worked well last time?
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I got the 40min nap after 3hr10min A time. I haven't had one in quite some time. Normally our short naps are 30min, and our long anything over an hour. This morning, she woke at 4am, after 9.5hrs sleep, and did not sleep again until 530am. Slept solidly for 30 minutes until 6am....and then on and off until 7am. After such crazy mornings, I never know when to put her down for first nap.....or for the night either. I almost feel as though the sleep from 530-6am is more of a nap, given that it was after being awake for an hour and a half. Like you suggested, I'd like the short morning, long afternoon nap, I just get so scared to cap the morning because the afternoon nap is so unreliable, but.....I really need to be able to put her down at 7pm or later to combat these EWs, and to do this, I need a nice long nap in the afternoon. So confused :-\
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We had exactly the same at 8.5 months. It's really confusing, isn't it?
If the afternoon nap is unreliable it's probably because her morning A is too short and/or her morning nap is too long. The only two options you have with that are to cap the morning nap so she's tired still in the afternoon, or push the morning nap back as far as you can without it shortening, then either AP an afternoon nap or try for a 30 minute nap at home after a slightly longer A time. If you find that afternoon nap continues to be difficult though, you probably do need to cap the morning one in order to get an afternoon one without fuss. I know it's hard to do, but pick a few days you can write off if it goes wrong, and stick to the same A times for a few days and see what happens.
What do you think, Heidi? Would you do something different?
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If the afternoon nap winds up being short, like 30 minutes, how long until BT? I feel like regardless of the length, I need to push her until at least 7pm, but I don't know?
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Yeah, I would go for a set BT at 7. It might be rough for a few days but things should even out. You can always AP an afternoon nap if you think that'll get you a better PM nap, just while you push BT back. You'll need to stick at it for at least 3 days though - maybe a week. Whereabouts are you? Do you have clock changes coming up? If so you'll need to push BT back for that anyway...
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I'm in Ontario, so DS is about 2 weeks away, and I'm panicking! I'm a little confused about what you told me to do. "AP an afternoon nap if you think that'll get you a better PM nap..". How much do you think those long early morning wakings, with a small amt. of sleep afterward, affect the morning A? For example, LO was actually rubbing her eyes quite vigorously this morning after only 2.5hrs. Because of what happened this morning, and the fact that I am going to keep this nap short anyway, I just put her down.
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It depends on whether you're planning a short AM or PM nap. I meant to AP a longer pm nap if you capped the morning nap and are worried about getting another 30 minute pm nap.
We used to get 1.5hr - 2hr nws followed by a 35-40 minute sleep and then tired signs soon after as well. I can't remember exactly what I did, but I do remember I had to keep J up cos too early a nap caused an EW the next day. For jack, those 35-40 minutes of sleep were acting like an early nap and causing EW the next day, no matter what I did for the rest of the day. I'm pretty sure I picked a day where WU time was half bearable (5am or something), and then kept him up til I wanted his morning nap to be, based on a normal WU time. I think I still capped it (might have let him have slightly longer than 30 minutes if he'd do it), then shortened the next A to compensate for the long morning and hoped for a decent nap.
So, assuming the A times you did before which gave you a good nap and night are about that, and that you're aiming for a 6am WU normally, I'd do one day like this:
WU: 4.45 / 5
A: 4hrs 15 - 30
S: 9.15 for 30 minutes if she'll do it.
A: 3hrs 10 (maybe very slightly less if you only get 20 minutes in the morning)
S: 12.55 at the latest. Uncapped.
BT: 7
And then hope for a good night, better WU the next day and then go back to 3hrs 15 , 3hrs 30 and then whatever A you need to get to 7pm BT. It's a bit risky but used to work with Jack. Like I say, resettling an EW used to perpetuate the problem for us, and if you have ds coming up you've got to move BT back some time.
I should also warn you that she'll definitely get tired doing a day like the one above and pushing BT at the same time, but the idea is that she eventually crashes after a decent BT. But if you're not sure then obviously you've got to do what you're comfortable with. Others may have other suggestions....?
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First off, I really really appreciate all the guidance. Even if it doesn't pan out, it does something for my mental health to know that other people have struggled in the same way :) I took your advice over the last few days, and didn't bother resettling the EW, but had to this morning because she woke at 4am! When you suggest a 4hr-4hr30min first A, after an EW, how long is the LO out of the crib? I'm not sure that she could last that long, only to have a 30 minute nap afterward......then again, I really have no idea! What were your LO's tired signs? I just can't tell whether this LO doesn't show any, or whether I'm just not giving enough A. Other mothers seem to have LOs who will fall asleep on their shoulder, or nod off in the jumper. My Lo hasn't fallen asleep outside of the crib or carseat since she was about 8wks.
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No, Jack never just nods off either! His tired signs are fairly typical I suppose - eye rubbing and occasionally a yawn. He gets frustrated more easily too, just a bit more touchy than usual, but I only pay attention to that if he's rubbing his eyes or something too, otherwise it can be hunger instead. He can also act a bit cuddly and droopy if he's hungry, but then perks up after eating so I think that's more a low blood sugar / energy thing than genuine tiredness. If you keep her up a lot longer than usual you'll soon find out if you're missing tired signs or just not giving enough A ;)
I used to have a rule with EW that I'd try and resettle for 40 minutes and then get J up. If he EWs from OT he'll resettle in that time. If he's EW from UT I don't want him going back to sleep so I get him up. So he always gets around 40 minutes in the cot after waking, and I leave him longer if he's happy.
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An update from today....
up at 7am (after much resettling)
nap 1-30min (2hrs30A)
nap 2-2hrs! Had to wake her (3hrs10min A)
BT-710 (4hrs A)
What do you think?
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Looks good :) Fingers crossed for tonight! She's really shortened her A time today hasn't she? Perhaps tired after lots of unsettled and short nights?
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I did the UT morning nap on purpose, then again, she did a lot of eye rubbing. Teething is really confusing me because I'll think she's tired when she's actually just uncomfortable. If I continue with the one short/one long nap days, and I continue to get early wakings, what would be the next move? She'll be 9 months in a week, and we've been dealing with the EWs since she turned 7 months.
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I'd do the same A times (or as close as possible) for at least 3 days and then see where you are wrt bedtime, WU time and nap length. It should be easier to see the patterns after that and then we can figure out what's next :)
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I'd do the same A times (or as close as possible) for at least 3 days and then see where you are wrt bedtime, WU time and nap length. It should be easier to see the patterns after that and then we can figure out what's next :)
I agree! We did a short pm nap before going to one nap, and from 4 months when we did the 3-2 we always had to apop the second nap no matter what. Eventually the morning nap got late enough we ditched the catnap.
None of my kids ever nod off - not even in their carseats much! I cannot help with DST though, as we don't do that here thank goodness!!!
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Well.......she woke at 430am, with no resettling possible :'( Unfortunately, I can't do the same A times as yesterday as you suggested given the early wake up. I will try to stick to the same nap times though. So nap 1-930, nap2-110ish. This does mean 5 hrs A before first nap, but she stayed in her crib for over an hour before I got her up, so hopefully she won't be too frazzled.
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Good luck! Let us know how it goes! Keeping that second A short to around 3hrs 10 will be key and where she can recover from that long morning. Fingers crossed...
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Sooooo.....thus far, the day has looked like this:
430-WU
4hrs 15min-A
845-930-nap1 (I tried to hold off a little longer, but she just looked wiped. I gave her 45min rather than 30min because we were already ahead of where I wanted to be)
3hrs-A (again, tried for about 10-15 minutes longer, but she fell asleep during her feed)
1230-230-nap2 (another 2 hr nap!!!)
Now I'm planning 4.5hrs A to make a 7pm bedtime. If she wakes early again tomorrow, do I do roughly the same as today? I know you said that if I get a decent WU, that I should go back to the old A times, but shouldn't I continue this if it is working? Another question about these 2 hr afternoon naps. Today she woke up herself, but yesterday, I had to wake her. Do I let her sleep longer than 2 hrs if she will. That may mean that she has more than 3hrs day sleep, and I think that may be bad for our nights, but I'm not sure???
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Yes, if you get another EW you could try roughly the same again tomorrow. It's hard, cos usually I'd say to move BT a bit more slowly, but I'm not sure that'll really help with DS coming up so you probably need to stick with long naps and a long A til bed if necessary. I'd probably try and resettle an EW for 40 minutes or so, though, just in case you get an OT EW instead of an UT one.
Re: the 2hr naps I'm not sure. I'd probably wake after 2hrs as well cos that should still be a restorative nap and you want some tiredness to carry over to BT, but I'm not sure that's the right answer for many LOs . I'm answering from the perspective of a very lsn LO. I only used to allow a truly uncapped nap if I thought J was OT, and I don't think that's been your problem cos when you have at least one long A in the day you seem to get better naps. She may be getting OT by the end of the day due to very long days, but it doesn't sound like she's OT going down for that nap. So I'd cap at 3hrs total day sleep across both naps, or 2hrs 15 max nap (3 sleep cycles), or 4hrs A til bed, whichever happens first!
Hope that makes sense.
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Do you think it's a mistake doing the 4.5 A till bedtime tonight? I too wouldn't normally do this, but that would land us at 7pm, and I'm trying to be consistent with that BT.
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Sorry, I've seen this too late but I'd have gone for it to see what happens! You don't know til you try, and I don't mind a few messy days with J if it shifts BT quickly. But I'm a lot less fearful of OT than I was with lily - partly cos I've seen with J that he gets over it easily and it generally buys me extra sleep once he starts catching up ;) And I agree that a consistent bedtime will help you shift WU too.
I think the general advice is to move BT in 15 minute increments. You can still do that - move it 15 minutes, hold for 3 days and then move it another 15, but with unpredictable naps I always found that harder to do cos it just drags it out. But you've got to do what you're comfortable with.
What did you do in the end?
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So, she wound up with a night something like this....
BT-650 (took forever to fall asleep, so I suspect OT)
multiple NWs after that, which she ss
up at 448-530 ( in that time, gave milk and meds, and brought her to my bed)
slept 530-600, then on and off from 615-7am
I now have no idea what to do with the rest of the day. Feeling pretty hopeless over here. I'm a terrible sleeper myself, so even when she is sleeping, I'm staring at the clock/monitor just waiting for the next blip....regardless of how tired I am.
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Eh Hon it's the same with me.
I am here all the time reading but have not time to write back to you.
I would stick to a set nap time - let's say 9:30/10:00. Give her 20 or 30min wake at certain time and then look for a good time for second nap. In our case at this age and LSN needs it probably is:
9:30 for 20min
1pm for 1:30h
BT at 7, WU 6:30/7:00.
If he wakes earlier I still stick to a set morning nap and do 20min but than I might put him down slightly earlier for afternoon nap (let's say 12:30 Anderson him sleep 2h). He isn't great at BT as slightly OT after 4:30 A, but... that's when I get a good night and resettling at 6am! If his second nap will end earlier and his A seems to be very long I usually make a 10min catnap in the pram around 4/5pm. It has to be a short catnap so he has second wind but then once again tired at 7pm.
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Thanks for writing Martii85! It's soooo hard to know what the right thing to do is. Right now, I feel like nothing I do makes any difference. I realize that it would be ideal to stick to the same routine over a period of days, to see what the issues may be, but she NEVER does the same thing twice. The only things that are consistent, are that she wake too darn early! To be quite honest, I'm not even sure that she is LSN. Maybe I'm just making all the wrong decisions. :-[ Did your LO finally start waking later with some routine changes? I really can't deal with 4am WUs anymore.
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So yesterday was just a mess....
WU-650 (after much resettling)
nap1-955-1040 (woke her after 45 min)
nap2-1:45-215 (30 minutes!)
So, because of "crap naps", I decided on SEBT, given that catnaps and ebts lead to EWs
In crib by 5:15. She was having none of it. Nonsense continued until 6:05, then sleep
Multiple NWs, where she would cry out and then ss. Longer NW at around 1030, where I fed and medicated. LOOOONNNGG NW from 310-435, where again, I fed and medicated. She was quite inconsolable. Slept from 435-715.
Her night sleep totalled 11hrs45min, so it appears that she made up for lost nap time, with a bunch of nonsense thrown in. I have no idea what to make of any of this. The long NW happened at roughly the same time that they always do, but previously, I was thinking these were UT, but there is no way that with 1hr15min of naps during the day, that this could be possible, right? As a first time mom, does teething really cause this much chaos? She only has her 2 bottom teeth, which came in last week. I can't feel anymore coming, but she's constantly drooling and biting on everything in site.
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Teeething really depends on the kid - DD1 was a horrid teether and for sure we had tons of nw's, DD2 never was bothered by teeth and DD3 has nw's when they are finally breaking through the gum and needs meds.
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How are you getting on? Jack has woken early the last 2 mornings and our clocks go back tonight (urgh!), so I was thinking of you.
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When there is time change is US? Also thinking of you. We have good nights so far but nice crappy naps:)))
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Hey Ladies,
Things around here are pretty status quo......which is to say that they are bad! I'm making no real progress with pushing bedtime back, as she naps/wakes up at different times every day, and our DS starts Nov.2nd. The night wakings are still very long and unexplainable. It's like she has totally forgotten how to self settle. I'm struggling between allowing her time to figure it out, or going in straight away before she's totally wide awake. I've resorted to medicating and feeding.....which I thought we were done with at 6 months! I hope that this is truly a phase, and that I have not created a new bad habit. Up until about 2 nights ago, I assumed the night wakings were due to UT, but after a day of nap time totalling 1hr15min, she still gave me a 1h hour NW. I just don't know, and I second guess everything that I'm doing. Do you ladies follow total awake time hours in a day? I've been reading somewhere that the total awake time hours should never exceed 10. Who knows. I'm now thinking that none of what I do matters, and that she will do what she will do.
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I have never heard the 10 hour thing...we have been on approx 12 awake hours in a day for ages. She would just be up early to make up the difference anyways.
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Hi:) i also never heard of 10h however I agree that every child has a ammout of sleep he needs a day. And if you put him down to early, you risk NW or EW. I also think that ammount of sleep is important but some kids just need to get tired before BT. Like my DS. I have to tire him out (but be careful and not OT) to have a decent 1:30+ nap or good long night. I also believe in routines so sometimes your child is not so tired but he will make a good nap as this part of the day he always do it. And I also believe in catchups and OT build up, so you kid may make a long 2h nap once a 3 days but that's fine for him and also you can think that he is totally fine but after three days on specific routine you will see that it's wrong as OT or UT come in.
To sum up, I am trying to solve/plan DS routine for 2,5m now from the moment he went to nursery but still not yet there:). My strategy: look as specific routine after couple of days, understand that after the same A I can have OT or UT nap/night (depends on how last three days looked like), don't worry about times, rather look at his behavior.
HTH!
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I can't quote on my phone but martii's last paragraph - that's exactly what we do. Set A times, and watch for at least 3 days before thinking about OT or UT or anything else. If I really don't know where we are I try and rule out OT first, and shorten A times. Then, after a few days I'll try something else. I also put lot by mood - if J seems happy then I assume all is ok cos he just doesn't fit typical A times for his age. He is also on much more than 10hrs A and has been since about 6 months probably!
The other thing I look at is total sleep. So at the moment, J's total sleep in 24hrs is 11 - 11.5 hrs. I want 10.5 - 11 at night, so that leaves about half an hour in the day (he's on the low end of that total sleep range atm). If you add up total sleep as an average over a week, decide what the max you think she can do at night is, and that'll tell you how many hours you've got to play with in the day.
HTH x
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I thought the 10 hrs awake time per day sounded quite low, and we have never been that low that I can remember, I'm just grasping at straws, ladies. :( I'm trying to look at total sleep hours in a 24 hr period, but they seem to be all over the place at the moment. The only time that nap hrs seem to affect night sleep, is when there are too many. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work the other way around, ie, she won't usually tack onto night sleep what she didn't get during the day. Also, the total sleep hrs really depends on whether I can resettle after the EW/NW. For instance, last night she had a 1 hr NW, and after resettling, she slept another 2.5hrs....sometimes she won't, or I just don't have the patience to wait 90minutes for an extra 30 minutes of sleep.
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Jack doesn't really tack on either, unless he's OT and only then he has a limit as to how much he'll do. (((Hugs))) We've had lots of very long EW phases, it really gets to you.
With the day sleep, if you take an average over a week or two it might give you an idea of what to aim for, and some clues about how to space it out. E.g If she needs 2hrs tops, you're probably looking at one 30 minute nap and one 1.5hr nap.
The other thing is it could well be teeth that are bothering her? J EWs for weeks on end when he's teething. The only way you'll really know is to stick to a plan for a few days, see where you are and then tweak, hold and try again. I know it's very frustrating and slow but if you accept the EWs are here to stay for a while, then each day matters a bit less and it takes the pressure off a bit so you can look at what's going on.
Here for you if you want any more advice or just a hand to hold!
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Thank you for all the support. It means so much, and I really don't know how you have the time to help others when your own hands are full. Believe me when I say that I read and re-read every post, and try my best to follow all suggestions. God knows, I don't know what I'm doing! LO averages about 2 hrs worth of nap time in a day, but what she gets and what she really needs I have no idea. Maybe it's the fact that she's getting 2 hrs a day, that leads to the NWs....be it from OT or UT, or maybe it is teething, or maybe at this point it is habitual. I just don't know. I know how important and useful it would be to stick to the same schedule and A times for a period of days. It would be a blessing, in fact. She is just so inconsistent with everything that she makes it impossible. When you said that J averages 11-11.5hrs /day, does that mean he's only napping 30 minutes per day? She seems to be back to a 30 minutes afternoon nap, which today ended at 315. How long would you go until BT after a 30 minute nap at 9 months?
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Yep, Jack only has one 30 minute nap a day now. Very lsn...
I know you're trying everything you can to get this back on track. You will get there. Something will click and it'll suddenly all change for the better. We had months of EW at this age. In fact most of J's life he's EW'd! I accept anything after 5.45 as acceptable now, lol!
If I remember correctly, it was around this age that I discovered by accident that J did better at night if he was awake from 2.30 everydday. When we were doing a short pm nap he'd wake by 2.30 and do a BT of 7ish, or a bit later. So that's 4.5 hrs A. I think I did similar after a long nap too. If he's UT he tends to need pretty much a full A after a short nap.
It took me ages to figure all this out though. Be kind to yourself. You don't have to know all this already. I only figured all this out with J after lots of trial and error and I still didn't get him to sleep later than 6 most days! :-*
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We also see this pattern and I read that it's typical for LSN babies. I think it's not specifically about last A, but just about gettting really tired!. And I get this "tiredness" with two options:
OPTION 1
1. short 20min morning (2,5h after getting up!)
2. longer mid afternoon nap (ideally 2h from 12:30 to 2:30 but he is doing 1:20-1:45 here, I am just thinking what are the next steps - put him down at 1:00pm and count on 1:30 nap or make morning nap even shorter...)
OPTION 2 if option 1 is not working:)
1. 20min
2. 45min
3. 20-30 min at 4pm till 4:30pm
Frank is a kid who never refuses BT so this short pm nap is not ruining our day but it keeps OT at bay. However if I make it slightly too long, I will get EMW (not 5am but 6:20-6:30 instead of 7am - right now!).
Not LSN babies are sleeping around 2:30-2:45 up to 9mo and 2:00-2:30 a day from 9mo if you want to keep 11,5-12h night. Sometimes it's easier to let them sleep slightly longer during day but count on 10-11h night but it's your choice.
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Yes, I need to let J get properly tired too. He recharges a lot on a little sleep or on one short A. Makes getting over OT nice and easy though :)
You're probably feeling a bit overwhelmed with advice. Do you want to post a couple of days EASY and we'll help come up with a plan that it's possible to stick with for a few days and then see where we are? Something like what Martii is doing used to work for us too. Perhaps if you can get a consistent length night then you can work on pushing BT back, if doing a set BT isn't working. Or do you want to go right back to basics and figure out what that first A should be and go from there?
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Ladies, I can't thank you enough for all of your input. I feel like you're taking this on as a personal mission! I'll post the last few days and you can see if you see if anything sticks out to you.
WEDNESDAY
650-up
3hr5min A
955-1040-nap 1 (45min)
3hrs5min A
145-215-nap 2 (30min)
3hrs50min A
6:05-BT
multiple small wake ups
NW-310-435
S-435-715
up for the day at 715
THURSDAY
715-up
3hrs10min A
1025-1140-nap 1(1hr15min)
3hrs10min A
250-405-nap 2(1hr15min)
3hrs25min A
725-BT
NW-250-350
S-350-635
up for the day at 635
FRIDAY
635-up
3hrs15min A
950-1130-nap 1(1hr40min)
3hrs20min A
250-320-nap 2(30min)
3hrs10minA
630-BT
multiple small NWs
NW-315-415
NW-500 (ss)
S-505-640
up for the day at 640
SATURDAY
640-up
3hrs20min A
10-1115-nap 1(1hr15min)
3hrs30min A
245-310-nap 2(25min)
40min A
350-430-nap3 (40min)
2hrs50min A
720-BT
NW-230-250
S-250-452
S-505-548
up for the day 550
Here are the nitty gritty details! If you can make sense of it all, I may just have to fly to Europe and kiss you all! On most nights, she does get 10-11hrs sleep, however, it is never without multiple NWs, so I don't know how restorative those sleeps could be.....despite her happy nature.
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I haven't got time for a proper reply at the moment but one thing that does stick out is that she might do better on a 13hr day. That always worked better for us. Also, my guess is still UT. Would you prefer a long am or long pm nap?
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Would prefer long PM, but the long AM seems more reliable....and it's easier to get out and do things iykwim. She gave me a 2hr morning nap today after 3hrs30 A, but that probably has something to do with a 9hr50min night.
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Will be back tomorrow, but agree with Jack's mum (hon - what's your name, I cannot find it here:D). Not quite sure about 13h but generally 12h is a minimum. On Wed it was 11:15...? And then you had the longest NW. Secondly this NW for me are right now habitual, but how easy will he resettle and how difficult it will be may have something in common with routine.
How are you addressing this NW? So what are you doing and what DD is doing...?
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Hi Martii, I'm Carly. I always want to know people's names as well, I just never want to be the one to ask, in case privacy is an issue. So in that case, it is lovely to meet you :) Regarding the length of day, we have been all over the place....were at 14+ at times when WUs were 4 am for the day! Generally speaking, I don't pay too much mind to them, but maybe I should. On the day that was 11hrs15min, I took into consideration the fact that both naps were short, and that my last A time was 3hrs50min....after a 30 minute nap! I was stretching it then, I'm sure. That was the night that made me think that the NWs might be due to OT and not UT, as her naps had been so short that day. For the NWs, I generally give about 10min to see if she will resettle herself, which she rarely does. I have resorted to medicating and feeding, even though she dropped her one night feed on her own at about 6 months. It seems like I could be there for hours trying to resettle if I don't feed. With that said, I don't believe hunger is the reason for her waking. I also do shh/pat, and if it seems that I am just stimulating her by doing that, I walk away from the crib but stay in the room to see if she will calm herself. Last night, I went in right away and fed. I had her asleep again within 20 minutes, however, without the looong waking, she was up again just before 5am, and then again for the day at about 550. 9hrs 50 min night sleep in total.....and broken sleep at that.
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Hi again. Sorry for offering to help and then disappearing. We've all been ill and are away for half term, so have been packing and generally busy. I'm Kate btw :)
It looks like she's averaging 12.5 - 13 hrs sleep in 24hrs. Assuming 12hrs 45 as an average then, that gives you around 11hrs 15 A to get into her day. How about trying something like this:
A: 3hrs 15
Nap: 30 minutes capped
A: 3hrs 30
Nap: Uncapped - hopefully at least 1.5hrs. Looks like this will fall around 1ish?
A: 4hr 15 - 4hr 30, depending on how the day has gone.
BT between 7 & 7.30 and no earlier.
I'm afraid you probably need to start being stricter with the nws too, otherwise you're not going to know if anything is working, or if she's waking out of habit. I believe PUPD is the tool to use, and if I remember correctly, you don't PU at this age, you just PD and use your voice to settle. I'll be back with a link. You probably need to do a little bit of sleep training, try the routine above for a week, and then see where you are. If you stick to the A times above, note how long she sleeps and her mood then we can see where we are. If she's in an UT/OT cycle, then she'll need pushing to get out of it. If it doesn't work, and at the worst OT has built up, we'll help you fix it. :)
The only other thing I wanted to add was that J had long nws several nights a week until he was about one. Then it suddenly stopped. In the same week I got strict about how I dealt with nws, and he significantly reduced the amount of day sleep he'd do (to around an hour). So I never knew what did it, or if he simply grew out of them. But they did end! :)
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Here's the link for PUPD:
How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
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Generally agree with Kate, however... I think I wouldn't cap first nap. He seems to like longer first nap and even if this is not what you would like, he seems to need it. Maybe if you want him to have it shorter, just put him down after short A, let's say 3h? So with 6am WU, nap at 9am and then 1pm and let him sleep as much as he wants? BT not earlier then 7pm.
Just from my experience, if your second nap will be short you will be doomed to 3rd catnap or EBT which is dreadful:(. If you push him too much, you will have a OT kid at BT and for example my DS likes long A till BT but if I push too much or do it for couple of days, he starts to do into hiperactive mode and have problems with setlling and he starts to WU early...
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Yes, that's a good way of making that first nap shorter. We had to cap it in order to get a decent second nap but you need to figure out what works for your LO :)
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Hmm, maybe I am a bit scared of capping as my DS is in a nursery and his naps are generally crap:))). Many times capping first one is not helping the second one to be longer:P. When at home, capping first nap worked very well for us.
So your choice Hon!
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Thank you for all your suggestions, ladies. Those days I gave as examples were probably not super representative of how things go most of the time, as I was able to resettle in the early morning, but only after 45min-1hr, using milk and meds! This had us waking for the day in the late 6s/early7s. Without resettling, the true WUs are in the 4-5am range. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I've pretty much accepted that her night sleep totals 10-10.5hrs per night, and if that's the case, I want to shift her entire schedule so that she would do more of an 8pm-6am night? It seems impossible to get there right now, with the early WUs and the need to keep day sleep to about a 2hr max.
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My go to apop for settling nw's was always holding her to sleep but now she is too big for me to be able to lay her back in her crib (and I am too short now that I dropped the bottom as low as it goes). I do a combo of PD & WI/WO with a bit of Shh/Pat if she really is having a hard time settling. She has been settling herself half the time and the rest of the nw's have gotten shorter.
We did a long am/short pm nap and an 8 pm bedtime for ages. We sort of pushed through ot and used set naps/bedtime to get thete as I had school run to work around. I was never one for figuring out A times!
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We haven't had a proper NW since Saturday night, but we do have several cry/shout outs in the course of the night. She will cry out for a few seconds, and then self settle. From all that I've read, these seem to be due to OT, but I honestly don't know what else I can do to keep it at bay. I'm desperately trying to shift her schedule, but because of the EWs, inconsistent naps, and actually having to cap naps, I am always left at about 230/3pm not knowing what to do. I feel like pushing her more than 3.5hrs to BT after a short nap will not help things, but that always leaves me at approx 630pm....which does nothing to help push the schedule forward. How long after a short afternoon nap, did you put your LO down for bed, and was she already doing 4+hrs A time anyway? Maybe this is just something I have to wait out until her A times are consistently 4+hrs and she is not exhibiting OT behaviours. I feel like every time I try to put her back to sleep after these 430-5am WUs, I am actually making the problem worse....like she's getting a little catnap 45-60min after her natural WU (which is usually 10hrs after BT). This is why I am just desperate to shift the whole schedule. I'd be perfectly happy with an 8pm-6am night. Should I just go cold turkey and put her down at 8pm regardless of what happened in the day? So confused and so desperate! What time was your LO waking, and when and how long were her naps when putting to bed at 8pm...if you can recall?
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10h night means 2:45 sleep a day to sum up to 12:45 overall.
I would push BT till 8pm cold turkey. And try to start a day at 7am. She will probably wake at 6am but try to be consistent for 7-14 days and maybe she William that you start at 7am, so let's say first nap at 10:00am, second one at 2:30pm. Don't wake from naps. If she does two 45min naps you should be able to go till 8pm. If she will sleep for more, make sure the total sleep is not more than 2:45 and keep consistent BT at 8pm not earlier.
Worth trying? It cannot be worse:)?
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I would go cold turkey to bedtime at 8 too. My DD3 went to one nap at 7.5 months, but prior to that she had an hour morning nap and a 30 min catnap at 3:30, bedtime at 8:00. All my kids really needed that long A to bed though, all three went to one nap quite early as well.
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Yep, agree with the cold turkey BT change too. That way you'll be done in a few days :)
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Even if it means that she's up for 5 or 6 hours before bed? I've never stretched her A time longer than 4hrs15min
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I did Hon, our longest are:
- from 13:40 after 2:10 nap till 19:00 = 5:20
- from 13:40 after 1:10 nap till 18:50 = 5:10
- from 13:55 after 1:15 nap till 19:00 = 5:05
All those happened last month, BT and night after was ok, no EMW, no cryout at night.
Your LO is slightly older and much more LSN than mine I think so do it once.
Really - one time shouldn't hurt so much:).
Much worse for us was 3 consecutive days on 3 short naps (20,30,30).
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Last night was just awful.....again :( After having a major meltdown myself this morning, I've just decided that it can't get any worse, and that I have to take some sort of drastic measure. Either a one nap day, or only 1hr30min day sleep with 8pm bedtime. I'm feeling the most hopeless that I have ever felt, and am starting to resent my baby. I think I would rather be at work :-\
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Oh God, Hon! Keep up there! Try 8pm bedtime firstly and let's see where you are!
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(((Hugs))) I have been there myself. I think in a way you have to get to that point sometimes to be able to let go a bit. One thing at a time. Focus on shifting BT - whatever else will be.... It can all be sorted out later. J did some massive (6-7hr) A times at this age on occasion to shift BT, or just cos the day went wrong. He survived, and I learnt from it. It'll all work out in the end xxx
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Sigh......thanks, gals. The day went to pot, of course. I planned to stretch her tonight, which I did, but it still only landed me at a whopping 615pm :P. She crap napped all day, beginning with a majorly OT 35min morning nap, followed by a 1hr10min afternoon nap. A time to BT was 4hrs15min. She's already done her first OT cry out....looks like I'm in for another doozy of a night. DH and I haven't slept in the same bed during the week since Lila was born, but after my breakdown today, I asked if he would "spend the night", just to have the support. There's something about dealing with a crying baby alone in the dark, night after night, that really gets to you. In looking back at my notes, I haven't had a night without cry outs in 2 weeks. If they are indeed due to OT, I have no idea how to deal with that issue whilst trying overcome early wakings by stretching her. Just had to rant. xoxox gals!
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Oh my, I know how important it is to have DH around. We were sleeping together in the room as that was out priority. DH had ear plugs and if the night was very crappy he would go to living room to sleep on the couch in the morning.
That was by the way reason why I moved F to his room at 3mo. I preferred to go to his room and deal with NW, and then come back to our bedroom for real rest. Sometimes it means that I will be sleeping on the floor in F room if his NW would be difficult but it was fine. We had out bedroom and it really helped.
Frank is a baby who quite often cryout when asleep. I never bothered you know? I mean if he resettles by himself I don't care at all:). I mean sorting out WHY he cried out at night was too much for me:))). I've never seen any pattern so I say to myself that cryout is just how some children transit from one sleep cycle to another. And that's it.
Keeping finger crossed for you. I am going for hols today so won't be able to pop in so often but with you with my thoughts!!!
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How is it going Hon?
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Wish I could say that there has been improvement, but sadly, nothing. I really feel like no matter what I do, the situation doesn't change, which is why I haven't been posting lately. The last few days, her naps have totalled less than 2 hours per day, but it doesn't seem to help with night sleep. She still wakes in the 4s no matter what I do. I've also increased her A times across the board....partially to see if that would help tucker her out more and partially because I have to do it, even to get to a 630 bedtime. Just feeling hopeless.
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Hugs Hon!
Would you like to post your last days log? Maybe we will try to figure something out together?
If not, it's always nice to have a place to ramble a bit, isn't it...:)?
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I apologize in advance for this craziness. I've been totally winging it, mostly out of frustration, so there really is no routine to the following days that I will post.
FRIDAY
WU-5:40
A-3hrs10min
S-35min
A-3hrs10min
S-1hr5min
A-4hrs5min
BT-5:45
up at 4:22am
SATURDAY
WU-4:22
A-4hrs30min
S-1hr5min
A-4hrs5min
S-40min
A-3hrs45min
BT-6:25
NW-2:35 (ss after a few minutes)
NW-4:12 (fed)
S-5-6:30am
SUNDAY
WU-6:30am
A-3hrs30min
S-1hr10min
A-3hrs25min
S-25min
A-3hrs30min
BT-6:30
plenty of NWs
S-4:34-5:37am
As you can see, there is no schedule, and the A times vary widely. The reason for this is always to get to a BT that isn't 5pm. It's bad enough being 630pm. When I look at my logs, it seems like to avoid NWs, this child needs a 14hr day, and 4+ A times......even after 30 minute naps. I have absolutely no idea anymore.
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Have you managed to make BT around 8pm at least once?
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Once....with multiple NWs and a 420WU!
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Gosh, nightmare!
Ok, it's late here. Will be back tomorrow and let's figure sth out. There has to be a way out of this madness and you will find it!
Good night Hon and hear to you soon!
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Yk I wonder are you stuck in an ot/ut loop that has shifted over to ot? How is lo's mood overall? Tbh with that 6:30 am wake I would have gone for broke and done as long an A time as possible to try and do one nap....and still pushed the 2nd A to bed, but I am a bit crazy like that!
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Believe me, I thought the same. I also wondered after the days of getting only 90minutes in nap time per day, whether it wouldn't have been more restorative to have them occur in one nap, rather than from two crappy ones, iykwim. No offense to BW ideology, but it has me so worried about anything and everything causing OT, that it makes me think that one nap may cause more harm than good. I really honestly have no idea what I'm doing anymore, nor do I trust my instincts in any way. I am totally guessing at A times and hoping for the best. Yesterday we did a 20 minute catnap from 410-430, bt of 7pm, and she woke at 5am without any NWs. This has thrown me for a loop. I may try it again tonight, and try for a 730 or 8pm bt.
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Maybe she needs to catch up on sleep a bit before being ready to start the 2-1? OT isn't really the worst thing, eventually in the 2-1 you get to a point where you have to push through it or you will be stuck in that ut/ot loop for ages. I just got impatient and did the switch cold turkey with all three and we just coped with the ot as best we could! Do you think more set naps might help you?
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I would go for another catnap today if you ask me to push BT to 8pm - hopefully it will work.
But agree with Heidi in general. Catnap is only a short-term solution at this age and for the days you have a reasonable WU close to 6am, I would push push push A:).
Btw - I stopped giving a 3rd nap for my LO only 3 weeks ago. At 8,5mo! And he is LSN I think. Our naps were very short because of nursery, so he slept for 20-40min 3xday, summing up to 1.5h. He was doing a 12h night on this schedule. So I am not such a big fan of pushing to less naps when LO is sleeping so shortly on naps.
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I've also thought about set naps, but it seems that no matter what I do, I always end up short at the end of the day, trying to push LO to 4.5hrs A time after a 30 minute nap. If you look at the days I posted, she did the same nap length of 1hr5min after 3hr10 A time, and then after 4hr30 A time. She just makes no sense. Keeping the am nap to 30 minutes in hopes of getting a long pm nap, didn't always work and we'd be left with 2 short naps, or even a long nap that still ended at 130-2pm....still giving us a 630 is bedtime.
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You know, with that low consistency in naps length - I wouldn't wake from first nap if you ask me. This solution is great for mothers who know they can get long nap after a decent A. I have resigned from that solution recently even if that routine suited me much better because 2 short naps is not enough to survive the day for us.
So for set naps, I would start with setting first nap for couple of days and see if you have any consistency in length. Then push if needed. With 6am WU and a hope for 14h day it has to be 4-4:30A in my opinion. First nap is rarely OT as they are still quite well rested after night and pushing A here works well. Looking at your log, 2 out of 3 days you got 1h+ nap in the morning which is fine I guess.
Extreme scenario below with 10h night and only 1,5h daytime sleep. If you have a longer nap or night, give him slightly less A (less than 4,5h):
6am WU
10:30-11:30 nap 1h after 4,5h A
16:00 - 16:30 nap 30min after 4,5h A
20:00 BT (after 3,5)
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Looks great, the problem is that we never have 6am WU.....that's the goal! As for the capped 30min nap, I haven't done it in a while, as it never got me a consistent afternoon nap. I just let her sleep as long as she wants, knowing that it is still is never enough :-\ I'm having so much trouble timing the second nap and am wondering if it doesn't really matter what I do. If she's had over an hour for morning nap, I get a 30 minute second nap.....always, which is never enough to carry through to a decent BT.
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The routine I proposed is based on 30min afternoon nap (I wrote 1h but the timing was 30min! - sorry!). You can shift it to 5am WU and 7pm BT if you have an earlier wake up. The idea is to push morning A. I think that your LO is doing 10h+ nights so there is a chance that from 7pm-5am night you will finally be at 8pm-6am. I just would try to push to 14h day and move BT up to 8pm to make this EWU bearable for you. WDYT?
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Sorry Martii85, I'm a little dense (or maybe just sleep deprived). Can you post the proposed schedule again, based on a 5am WU?
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Yes of course Hon.
5am WU
9:30-10:30am nap 1h after 4,5h A
3:00-3:30pm nap 30min after 4,5h A
7pm BT after 3,5h A
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So yesterday went something like this....
WU-5am
3hrs55min-A
1hr-S(she woke herself)
3hrs-A(no way she would have lasted 4.5hrs....she seemed tired after 2.5hrs and fell asleep immediately in the car)
1hr20min-S(never would have done this in the crib, but since we were driving she did)
4hrs30min-A(this felt too long even after a good nap, so don't know how she'd do it after a 30 min nap)
6:45-BT
930-NW
11:11-NW
up at 5:07 for the day!
Can't see how I'm ever going to make an 8pm BT without a third nap. I feel like I really stretched her, and still got a far too early WU. This is just so frustrating!
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Hi Hon, I know that you are probably so so tired by this situation and I would like to hug you and give all good vibes, but all I can do is holding your hands virtually and encourage when you push her A time. Regarding the routine… it doesn’t look so bad:), let me show you some good things here:)!
1. First A 3:55 – followed by 1h nap, great! She is not OT here and it seems that she can do more. Can you push her here to 4,5h A? If you have to achieve a reasonable BT you have to push not only the last A of the day but also the first ones; I know that she may look tired and she probably is tired, but kids at this age are very often “used to” be tired. They know it’s time to go to sleep so they show the signs.
2. Second A only 3h – you have to give her time to get used to first and second A so she will look tired here for a while; if you think 4,5h is difficult here, do as much as you can; remember that after better nap in the morning, she should be able to do more here; remember that in longer perspective, if she is more tired in the morning, she might want to sleep longer at night and… you will not be doomed for the longest A in the evening after a short nap, what may result in OT (and NWs…)
3. In the routine I posted, after 30min afternoon nap I proposed 3,5h A till BT when last 30min are usually feed, bath etc so even tired kids are entertained enough to survive. The thing is: the more you push your LO in the morning, the shorter will be the last A of the day after a short nap.
4. Night wasn't so bad Hon, she slept 10:20h which is more than I thought (the routine I posted say 10h of ONS).
WDYT?
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Thank you sooooo much for all of your kind words and support. It means the world! I will keep trying to push out the first A, but may stick to 4 hours for the next day or two. I'll keep you posted!
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Totally agree with Marti's assessment, kids do learn the tiredness if they are used to a particular A time and can throw you off. A nearly 10.5 hr night is really great!
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Hi Hon! How are you doing?
Posting to tell you our story from this week:). DS is at nursery 5days a week. Not sleeping well there if you ask me...:). Mostly 45min nap, sometimes 1-1:20 in the afternoon, but never in the morning. At home when put at 10am he slept ages and I was waking him at 1,5h mark. Not to mention that he was starting to wake somewhere between 5 and 7 am and usually self settled later but still, from 5am it wasn't a restorative sleep!
The nursery this week asked me for moving his nap from 10am closer to 10:30 as kiddos in the nursery was going to sleep around 11:15 so they wanted to synchronize as much as it's possible without making DS OT. They started on Wednesday and what happened:
Day 1 : pd at 10:20, slept for 15min... Lying in his crib went to sleep once again at 11:00 and slept another 45min, 2nd nap at 3:15 for 45min; happy baby till 7pm BT, slept thru, couldn't wake him at 7am:)
Day 2: put down before 11am twice but no interest in sleep, ate lunch at 11am and put down at 11:15, slept 1:20!!! Second nap in a car 4:10-4:30 when I came, settled beautifully at 7pm
Day 3: put down at 11:40!!! as was eating lunch for long time, second nap at 4:30-4:45, settles nicely at 7pm, slept thru
All these days I had to wake him at 7am!!! Which didn't happen in ages!
Today, sooooo sleepy at 10am as me is nothing on terms of entertainment for him:) but pushed him till 11:00, give lunch, settled nicely and still asleep.
I cannot imagine but he was so ready for this jump in A and he was trying to tell me that through ages when waking early from the naps in the nursery (I thought OT...).
So - just to encourage you...:) try and maybe the results will come!
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Martii85, thanks for taking the time to tell me your story. I am sooooo happy that you have had a few 7am wakeups. That must be a wonderful feeling! Would you say now, that your morning A is roughly 4hrs? I have stuck to 4hrs A before morning nap for the last 5 days with naps of 1hr, 1hr20min, 1hr15min, 30min, and ? (still sleeping) respectively. One of the days was sooo promising. We had a morning with a wake up of 6:58, so I thought that this would be the perfect day to push BT to 8pm, which we did.....but still wound up with a 4:30-4:40 NW, and then a wake up of 5:26. The day seemed so perfect. We had a 30 min. morning nap and a 2 hr afternoon nap, with 4hrs awake time before bed. This has left me super confused and pretty doubtful that anything will work. I'm starting to believe that she can only sleep a long night stretch of 9.5-10hrs, and from there, she's either up for the day if she's had a decent amount of day sleep, or will treat it as a NW, and then only sleep for an additional 30-45min. What do you think?
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We have 7am wakeup and... If i do a nap around 10 at home he will sleep 1,5h+ but after couple of days his sleep before 7am becomes light... It seems like he is finishing his night with a long nap too early in the morning. So last week we were going towards 4:15-4:45 A with naps 1:20-1:40 respectively to the A length (the longer A, the longer nap). Than I do a nap around 4pm (15-30min) and 7pm BT. But you cannot copy as my son sleeps 12h at night with 2h day sleep... And your dd is doing 12-13h in total so you have to stretch her even more.
I know it's difficult but you have to push her much more in the morning. For us stretching first A is the most difficult but it gives the best results. Than after a good nap I would stretch her second A and do short 30min catnap and really the shortest A before BT. I would encourage you to push her to the extend when she will give you 2h morning nap. I don't know with what A she will do it: 4,5-5, but that's the option you didn't try. I would try to keep that for at least free days and see what's next.
Ahhhh, I am sorry to say that but I would be expecting a EWU after such a day you posted as ideal, Hon. She woke up at 7am so she had only 13h day and you let her sleep 2,5h... If she wakes so late, you have to cut her naps to 2h max in my opinion or even wake her at 6:30 if she didn't wake by herself. I know it's hard... But sleeping in is great for mums, but usually makes the routine for the day more tricky. You cannot allow for the same nap length as it sums up to too much day sleep and too short A.
I don't think 9,5h is enough sleep for her. I think you really can expect something like 10,5 as minimum but that will happen with a good day with not too much sleep during naps. Hmmm, have you thought about morning play groups or whatever...? I put down F today after 4,5h today but it was a fight really as he was giving me sleepy cues after 3h. I wouldn't go for it, if I didn't know he could do it (he did that in the nursery). But that's the trick. There is so much going on there that he is happy there for full 4,5h A. Maybe that's a solution for you to stretch him in the morning?
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Happy New Year, ladies!
I just wanted to touch base and offer an update. Baby is now 11months9days old, and things have improved in some areas, but the 7am wake up is still elusive.....for that matter, so is the 6am :-\. Lo is still only getting between 9.5-10.5hrs night sleep, but we have been pretty consistent in keeping with a 7/730BT, as the later BT of 8pm seems to always result in poor sleep and EWs anyway. There was a period of time where baby would sttn without any NWs and fully wake somewhere between 515 and 545. This was not ideal, but at least she was getting a solid, albeit, short night. In the last week or so, she has started waking again in the 4s, and sleep from then until sometime in the 5s is very unsettled. I have no idea whether this is OT or UT. It is definitely not early morning noise or any environmental factor waking her. I should also mention, that baby has within the last few weeks, given me a consistent 1hr30-2hr10min morning nap. This came out of nowhere, and I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of the lengthening of a nap, being a sign of needing to transition to 1 nap? The EWs have made it nearly impossible to even try a 1 nap day, as I think it is the only thing I haven't tried. Capping the long morning nap also made no difference, so I just let her do it and get a snooze in myself. Our EASY looks something like this most days:
WU-530
A-4hr-4hr30min
S-1hr30min-2hr
A-3hr30min
S-30min
A-3-4hrs
S-7/730
Today, she did her normal 430am WU, resettled a few times to get to a final WU of 620am. I used today to try my first 1 nap day, which looked like this....
WU-620
A-4hrs30min
S-1hr50min
A-5hrs5min
S-545pm.........still sleeping with non NWs as of 720pm.
I guess I'm just looking for guidance or reassurance. I haven't done an EBT in quite some time, as they've never worked out, but LO has never done an A time longer than 4hrs40min, so I was somewhat paranoid. Hoping for the best, but assuming the worst for WU tomorrow. It was less than a 12hr day, and only 9hrs35min total A time. Do these things matter during the transition? Any thoughts on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry for the length of this post. Thanks ladies.
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It looks like she's ready for one nap to me :) You might find you have some awkward days where one nap is a struggle but it's hard to fit in two naps, but you could aim for 4hrs 30 morning A, and then let her cn if you can fit it in and have her awake by 4 or something. I'd cut the cn to 20 minutes though at this stage. If you can't get her cn in before 4, then you can do EBT instead. It looks like that will work for her which is great ;D
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Ugggghhh! I wish I had good things to report from last night, but sadly, I don't. She was silent from PD at 545 to 940....then had about a 1hr30min screaming NW, then again up and down from 4am ish until 550 when I finally got her up. I couldn't really tell when she was sleeping during those early hours, but I estimated that she probably slept about 10hr10min all night....a little less than her usual. I'm so confused, but as I thought, EBTs are still a no go here. I'm also confused because unlike a lot of other moms on this site, I can always get a CN. Mind you, I don't even try for a crib nap, it's always a swing or driving nap. With both of these, she is always asleep in 5 minutes. If she sleeps so readily, does this mean that she really needs the nap?
Today her EASY has looked like this:
WU-550
A-4hr20min
S-2hr10min
A-3hr40min
S-20min
and I plan for in bed by 7pm after 2hr40min A. ( I have experimented with ALL A times after the CN, so I'll try less than 3hrs in case OT is the cause of the EWs. I'm also wondering whether I should be more concerned with the length of day or the A times prior to BT. I'm often having close to 14 hr days because of the EWs and because ebts seem to not work.
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Honey, we started this thread with a questions if your LO is LSN. How old is she now? I know that you are afraid of OT but with this A at this age it's rather not possible. My kid is doing 4:30+ morning A or even 5:00+ and is having a 1:20-1:50 nap after that. Many not very LSN LOs are having 1 nap already around this age so I think the only solution which will bring you less NW will be longer day and less daytime sleep:).
I wasn't also surprised with her night after 1 nap day. Almost 2h of sleep and day shorter than 12h. Once again, I think the key is to push the morning nap closer to 5/5:30A after WU now when she enters 2-1 transition.