10-hour night sleep, unpredictable naps

[meirsmom]

Hi all, I've been on this forum for about 3 months now, and God bless the moderators here!

I've been able to move my now-7-month-old DS to sleeping-through-the-night in his cot, from exclusive rocking-in-lap with 2-3 night wakings earlier.

On suggestion from the lovely ladies on this forum, for the last 2 weeks I have moved DS from a 2-hour A time to 2.5 hours, en route to 3 hours. He came down from 4 naps to 3 naps at about the same time. This is a sample daily routine:

0700 Wake-up
0700 - 0930 A time  including 1 solid feed + 1 bottle feed (6 oz)
0930 1st nap (typically 45 min)
1015 Wake-up
1015 - 1245 A time including bath and 1 bottle feed (6 oz)
1245 2nd nap (typically 1.5 hours)
1415 Wake-up
1415 - 1715 A time including 1 bottle feed (6 oz)
1715 - 3rd nap (typically 30 min)
1745 - Wake-up
1745 - 2000 A time including 1 solid feed + 1 bottle feed (6 oz)
2000 - Bedtime

DS had been following above routine for a while, now has abruptly started waking early in the morning, at 5.30/6 am, and crying very badly if we attempt to put him back down to sleep using shush-pat/pupd. He's completely awake. 

Mostly he makes up his sleep loss by taking 1 long nap (2.5 hours) in the day, but not always.

My queries:
1. Should I continue trying to move him to 3-hour A times? Am I doing anything wrong?
2. What should we do when he wakes up at 5.30/6 in the morning after only 9.5/10 hours of night sleep? Currently we leave him in the cot, he flops around on his own, for about 20-30 minutes, then starts whimpering, which is when we pick him up. We bring him into bed with us but he wants to play.
3. Is there anything we can do to improve his naps, bring about some consistency?
4. He underwent teething a few days ago, but right now doesn't seem to be teething; however, does have a runny nose for which we're giving him Alerid (a variant of Cetrizine) and Nasoclear (saline drops to clear the nose). Could this sleep disruption be because of this?

Will be extremely grateful for your help!

[meirsmom]

Hi all, we had our worst night ever. It's inexplicable. Please help!

He slept at 7.30 PM after a day of good naps (he'd woken up crying at 5.30 am the night before, as per my previous post, but made up lost sleep in naps, did about 14 hours of sleep totally which is just right for him), then woke up crying at 11 pm.

We let him be, at first, but the crying was completely genuine, so we did pupd, shush-pat - he just seemed to get more agitated. He seemed to be fighting to go to sleep but was unable to. We gave him Crocin drops to alleviate teething pain if any, and then put saline drops in his nose in case his nasal passages were blocked (he's had a runny nose) - but neither helped. We finally gave him a feed, about 6 oz, but that didn't really help either - I don't think it was hunger.

Finally he slept at 1.30 am.

Only to repeat the whole thing all over again at 4.30 am. We tried shush-patting him, it would work for 30 seconds, and then he would start crying again.. We continued till 6.30 am, by which time he was wide awake and we gave up.

After that we put him down for his first nap at 9, he slept for 40 minutes.

We are taking him to a doctor to assess if there are any medical reasons for this discomfort, but request you to please please guide us on what we could do! He's slept about 6.5 hours at night.

Could this be a sleep regression of some kind? Are we doing something drastically wrong with his day routine? Are we feeding him less during the day? Could it be hunger-related?

Right now very bummed about the prospect of seeing all our hard work with sleep training getting blown away. Hope things come back on track soon :-(

[Haribo2012]

Hi, sorry your having a rough time. If LO is 7 months old you definitely want to get rid of that 3rd nap as it could be causing the EW.
45 min naps can be UT so I would push your first nap out to try and get 2 naps of 1.5 hours, I'd try and do something like
WU 7am
Nap 10am
Nap 2.30pm
BT 7.30pm
If naps are short bring BT earlier...general rule being 2 good naps 13 hour day, short naps 12 hour day. Don't be scared if early BT they can give you a longer night if LO is OT, You could be in an OT/UT cycle and need to tweak your routine a bit.

It could be teeth, could be ears if has had a cold but sometimes it's just a bad night.

Keep us posted with how docs visit went x

[meirsmom]

Thanks Haribo2012!

The doc said DS is fine, his cold is better and there's no ear/chest infection. He's asked me to give him some gripe water, which I started yesterday evening.

Last night was better, DS slept at 7.30 pm and awoke at 4.30 am crying, went back to sleep after patting, awoke at 5.30, wouldn't go back to sleep after patting, so we took him out of the cot and treated it as a wake-up after his usual 10 hours of night sleep.

Thanks for the advice on bringing BT earlier - thing is, if he wakes up at 4 pm from his last nap, and I put him down at 6.30 pm, he wakes up at 7 pm, ready to play! Then he goes to sleep only around 9 pm. So early BT, though advised by other moderators on this forum, didn't work for us - at least, no earlier than 7 PM.

So I try and stretch him to 7 pm (or at least 6.45 pm), even though it means he's OT by the end of it, before I put him down.

Today's his first nap was 1.5 hours, 2nd nap only 45 minutes and the 3rd nap has been on for an hour, should be 1.5 hours.

How do you suggest I tweak the routine? Thanks again!

[Haribo2012]

HI, glad hes ok and docs says all well. I really think you need to get rid of that last nap, how did today look in EAS format?

[meirsmom]

Hi there, so sorry I disappeared from this thread. Lots has happened.

DS (now 8 mo old) got a very bad viral attack - cold, chest congestion, the works. Regular cold/cough meds didn't work, so had to nebulize him for 6 days. He became much better about 4-5 days ago, and with that, his sleep improved dramatically. From 4-5 wakings at night (during his illness, prior to his illness he was on zero wakings) he was down to 1-2 wakings and on one day, none. His day naps, however continued to be max 45 min during the illness, whereas they had been on track to increasing to between 45 min to 1.5 hours before the illness.

(Then I got the viral too, and then DH, resulting in utter chaos, hence my disappearance from this thread. Am back because I'm feeling better since yesterday)

DH and I were ecstatic, and resolved to start moving him to 2 hours 45 min of A time (he had been on 2.5 hours and I had let him continue on 2.5 hours because he was so ill) so that we could gradually move him to 3 hours A time. There was a dramatic improvement in his naps and night sleep right from the day we moved him to 2 hours 45 min A time. For 2 days he took 2 naps, 1.5 to 2 hours each, and slept through at night for 10-11 hours, with 1-2 wakings.

Then yesterday, Day 3, his naps were again brilliant (2 naps, 1 of 1.5 hours and  2 hours 15 min) and he went down for his bedtime at 7.15 PM. BUT he kept stirring and whimpering till 7.45 PM, so we decided to check, and sure enough, he'd pooped. So we changed his diaper and resettled him by 8.15 PM - but by then I guess the damage was done. He kept waking up, every few minutes, between 10 PM to 1.30 AM, and then again 3-4 times after that till 7 AM.

Then today, he took a long first nap (2 hours 15 minutes), and he started fussing right before his 2nd nap, though I was putting him down after 2 hours 45 min exactly. We checked, and again, he'd pooped, so had to be cleaned and resettled with a lot of patting, as a result of which he only slept for 45 min.

In the evening, I put him down for the night at about 7 PM, after 2 hours 45 min, he was looking sleepy and ready to drop off, but he wouldn't. Kept fighting and trying to sit up. We checked, no poop. We gave him a top-up feed (3 oz) because he'd emptied the previous bottle (6 oz). He had most of it and I wound him down with some soft singing and slight walking around with him in my arms. He seemed to drift off, only to start crying in an hour. Shush-pat only seemed to make him cry harder, so we did PUPD a few times, then he quietened down, so we put him down again. This was 30 mins ago, he seems to be sleeping, but I fully expect a hugely disrupted nights' sleep again.

Sorry for the huge amount of detail - just feeling very scared that for some inexplicable reason all our good work with sleep training seems to be coming to naught :-(

Here's what today looked like in EAS format:

Wake-up 7 AM (after a very disturbed night sleep, as explained above)
A time 7 to 8 AM
1st solid feed 8 AM
A time 8.15 to 9.30 AM
1st bottle feed 9.30 AM
1st nap 9.45 AM
Wake-up 12 PM
A time 12 to 1.30 PM
2nd solid feed 1.30 PM
A time 1.45 to 2.30 PM
2nd bottle feed 2.30 PM
2nd nap 3.15 PM
Wake-up 4 PM
A time 4 to 5.30 PM
3rd solid feed 5.30 PM
A time 5.45 to 6.30 PM
3rd bottle feed 6.30 PM
Down for bedtime 6.50 PM (Not successful, as explained above, lots of crying, followed by shush-pat/PUPD, followed by a top-up bottle feed)
Finally down for bedtime 8.15 PM

Have therefore had a very rough couple of days after a few very promising days where things looked set to improve.

Please help us understand what's happening here, what am I doing wrong? 

[Haribo2012]

Wow big hugs sounds like an awful time! Hun you aren't doing anything wrong as such sometimes we just have bad days, and following illness is always a tricky time getting back on track. It sounds like you were doing great though.
The only thing I would say is if u get a short nap less than 1.5 hours I would make next A less by about 20-30 mins as you could be getting OT on normal A with short nap, also on a huge nap over 2 hours you might need to add 5-10 mins on as could be that LO just not tired enough so your getting into an UT/OT nap loop. x

[meirsmom]

Hi Haribo2012,

Thanks for your response.  We started to try out what you mentioned, to tackle the two issues: naps and night sleeping.

Yesterday, he woke up at 5:30am after having slept only 9.5 hours.  We kept an eye out for sleep cues, and got 3 naps: 2 hours 20 minutes, 40 minutes and 1 hour 30 minutes.  We put him to bed at around 7:30pm, needed a few patting attempts, finally going off at 8pm.  He woke up crying at around 4:30am, and we had to pat him a few times, and he did sleep, but was wide awake by 6:30am.  Following his sleep cues, we put him down at 8:30am, but he was up in 30 minutes.  His second nap started after an A time of 2 hours 30 minutes, and he only went down in 3 hours (12 noon), went to sleep for 30 minutes again.  Third nap was at 3:15pm, he woke up in 30 minutes (he is learning to get on his knees / feet by pulling himself up, and he had managed to do that in his cot), but we were able to pat him for a few minutes and he slept till 4:45pm.   Bed time today was finally at 7:30pm, after a lot of patting. 

Sharing the above details just to share how unpredictable it's been after 2-3 days of blissfully long naps, once we moved him to 2 hours 45 min A time, and him moving to 2 naps. Now it's all chaotic again!

Questions:
- What do we do to get the long naps in - should we stick to watching for his sleep cues, something that didn't work today?  How short can the A time be made - can it be under 2 hours if we believe that may help?
- What do we do when he wakes up in 30 min from a nap and will not go back to sleep despite shush-patting? Do we try for a certain amount of time (say 45 minutes, like in the sleep training days) before giving up and letting him have his A time, or do we just let him get out of the cot and play if he's clearly awake and sitting up?
- This last week he has been learning to pull himself up - could that be causing short naps?  If you believe that may be a contributing reason, is there some way we can help him get over that?
- Is our shush patting becoming a prop, and not helping him settle himself down?  If so, do we revert to the sleep training we had used 4 months ago?  If he is able to sleep 8 hours through the night without them, we are not sure if that is indeed the case..but your inputs will be useful
- For the early wakings, should we just let him be in his cot, and only go in if he is crying vigorously? The risk is he may cry himself wide awake, rather than if we intervene earlier and get him to go back to sleep.
- Do we need to tweak his day routine, e.g. distance feeds from bedtime? Will that help?
- Does this kind of unpredictability and difficulty in going down for naps, and disturbed/short night sleep, sound like a regression (due to new milestones/growth spurt) to you, or do you think there's some other cause?

That's a long post. Thanks for your patience and all your help! We're struggling with a lot of issues but have complete faith in BW and this forum.

[Haribo2012]

Hi, well if it was me I'd stick to 2 naps at this age as the 3rd might be just messing up your nights/EW. If you get the first nap as a decent 1 but 2nd as a short 1 then I'd do Super early BT, I honestly remember putting my DS to bed at 5.30pm for a couple of nights when we changed to 2 naps.
Sleep cues at this age aren't very reliable so if stick to A times, I find my LO yawns if thirsty, bored, hot needs a snack!
If he's not back asleep after say 20/30 mins I'd give up and shorten next A time by say 30/40 mins so not OT.
Learning to pull up will definitely have an effect on sleep, anything developmental means their little brains are working overtime. Just spend time with him playing in his cot and teaching how to get up and down etc.
I'm sure the shush pat isn't too much of a prop if he sleeps 8 hours without it but you could try keeping hand still and using more reassuring words.

If he's crying like I need you, go straight in but otherwise leave him and assess things, sometimes we go in too quickly but you might find if you keep your naps to 2 a day and 13 hour day max the Ew will go.

[nevinsmama]

Topping off the hugs here! I completely agree with everything Zoe has advised. 7 months is pretty late to have a CN still around. Give things time to change and settle in ( say, 3-5 days after you adjust something) and don't fear early bedtime! Hang in there!

[meirsmom]

Dear Zoe and Maryn, thanks a ton for writing back.

situation is unfortunately deteriorating on a daily basis, and I just cannot figure out what we're doing wrong. Worse, we know we're getting into accidental parenting, but as of now, despite our resolve to do the right things to make DS an independent sleeper, we cannot seem to figure out how to stop.

To respond to your last post -
1. We have tried multiple times to put DS down early. Every time, he has woken up after 45 mins to 1 hour, wanting to play for another 2 - 2.5 hours. We have noted that even if we put him down at 6.45 PM, after doing the whole bedtime routine, he will treat it as a nap and be up in 45 min - 1 hour. However if we put him down at/after 6.50 PM, and he takes 5-15 mins to settle down (mostly with a couple of shush-pat interventions from us), he will sleep through. (Of course 'sleep through' doesn't mean STTN, it only means he will not treat that like a nap)

2. On dropping the CN - there were 2 days last week in which DS woke up from 2nd nap between 3 to 3.30 PM. We kept him up till 7 PM, knowing he was probably going to be OT, but we've been advised on this forum that some overtiredness is to be expected when moving from 3 naps to 2 AND moving to 3 hours A time. We expected disrupted nights, and they were, but MUCH better than any of the other nights we've been having. He slept through for 8-9 hours, and there was about 1 hour in the morning where he needed frequent patting, after which he slept for another 1-2 hours. This was brilliant, we thought, this is the way to go.
However, since then, things have gone downhill. He's waking up crying 4-5 times at night (in addition to the 1 hour in the morning where he needs a lot of patting). Mostly he's waking up crying because he pulls himself up to a standing position and doesn't know how to go back down, but there have been cries for no apparent reason as well.
Despite all our patting etc, he's not been able to sleep more than 10 hours on any night. Plus his naps are hugely disrupted. 30 mins, 45 mins, despite trying to follow the advised A times.
E.g., last night he slept through for 8 hours straight, then another 1 hour with a lot of patting. Woke up after that. So 9 hours total. I therefore put him down for his 1st nap after 2.5 hours (because night sleep had been inadequate). He looked sleepy and drifted off easily.
Woke up in 45 minutes.
He did make up with a 2 hour 20 min afternoon nap, but DH had to remain in his room and had to pat him 2-3 times.
Because he woke up at 2.30 PM from the 2nd nap, there was no way I could put him down for bedtime at 5.30 (because I know he will wake up in an hour) and there was no way I could stretch him till 7 pm (4.5 hours of A time!). So I had to put him down at 5 PM, which happened with A LOT of difficulty, but he slept for an hour 10 minutes.
Finally we've put him down at 9 PM for bedtime, he's already cried out twice (was standing up in the cot).

Sorry once again for the long post. I'm at the verge of losing my sanity with this unpredictability. I know the BW method and your advice works, it worked brilliantly for me for 3 months, but it's now been 2 months since we've been struggling with very poor sleep.

If there's any suggestions you have for us, we'd be very very grateful. Thanks again for all your kindness.

[nevinsmama]

Hi there, I am sorry things are so rough right now! Big hugs for you! I am heading off to bed now but couldn't read and not drop off hugs and a couple ideas.

Is your LO getting any new skills just now? Any sign of teeth? I see his is about 7 months, I wonder if the shh/pat has gotten to be a bit of a prop and perhaps you may want to consider less patting, more of your presence, words and a calm hand? Zoe, could you add your thoughts on this?

If I were you, I would persist with pushing that BT that he is using as a nap as a BT, keep trying to settle until he goes back out. It sounds like he has really gotten into that habit of using that as another nap and then that sets him right up for that OT  10 hour night! Just my slightly groggy thoughts here, I will check back in the morning before work! Hope you can get a decent night tonight, I know this can be exhausting but you are doing great!

[Haribo2012]

Hi sorry it took so long for me to reply BT messing about last night for us!
I agree with Maryn and sounds like skills could be on the way.
I think with shush pat around this age we did calming reassuring words like it's ok it's just sleepy time, time to rest now, have a lovely sleep and lovely dreams and a still hand on body.
Does he have a lovey? x

[meirsmom]

Dear Zoe and Maryn, thanks again, don't know how to thank you adequately.

Update - We traveled out of town to DH's parents place. We were there for 3 days, and I was really anxious because they don't have a cot, and their place isn't at all baby-friendly!

It was a little difficult to put DS down for a nap on the bed, and even though we surrounded him with pillows, we were perpetually scared he would climb over them, so one of us had to stand guard constantly. It was a miracle that he did go down for any naps at all. His schedule last 3 days has been like this:
8.30/9 pm to 6 am - 9/9.5 hours night-time sleep, fairly disturbed, esp. around 4/5 am
6 to 8.30 am - A time (including 1 solid feed)
8.30 am - bottle feed (approx. 4/5 oz)
8.45 am to 9.30 am - 1st nap (only on 1 day did he take a 1.5 hour nap in this slot)
9.30 am to 12 pm - A time (including 1 solid feed + bath)
12 pm - bottle feed (approx. 3/4 oz)
12.15 pm - 2nd nap
1.45 pm - wake-up
1.45 to 4.15 pm - A time (solid feed optional)
4.15 pm - bottle feed (approx. 4/5 oz)
4.30 pm - 3rd nap
5 to 6 pm - wake-up (this nap was mostly 30 min long, but on one occasion 1 hour 20 min)
5/6 pm to 8/8.30 pm - A time (including 1 solid feed)
8.30/8.45 pm - bottle feed (approx. 4-5 oz)
Approx. 9 pm bedtime

On technique for putting him to sleep: I bring him into the bedroom, away from his toys, shut the light, and walk him about the room, talking to him in a soft voice (general things - "it's sleepytime, meir will go to sleep now, have a nice long nap, wake up rested and refreshed"....etc) for about 1-2 minutes. Then I sit on the bed with him in my arms and I give him the bottle. Then I sing softly. Within 5 minutes he's had as much as he wants to have, I try and offer it to him again, he rejects vehemently 80% of the time so I immediately keep the bottle away, but 20% of the time when he hasn't had his fill, he will accept it again willingly and will feed for another minute or so. When he's done, I stand up, him in my arms, and I continue humming, and I walk him around for another 30 seconds to 1 minute, depending on how drowsy I estimate him to be. I also gently pat his back during this. When his head is more or less completely resting on my shoulder, I put him down, he immediately turns on his front (sleeps on his tummy). 50% of the time he starts stirring right away and tries to sit up and needs to be patted back, max 1-2 minutes. 50% of the time he goes off to sleep right away.

Sorry for such a detailed description of my wind-down routine. Need your feedback - is this a prop? Or is this an okay way to wind-down a baby? I must point out that my husband is able to wind him down without the walking/talking/humming, but he does very gently rock him from side-to-side for a few minutes.

Are either of these techniques props, and should they be done away with?

Also, now that we're back from the trip, do you have any tips on getting him back into the cot? He woke up from his 1st nap in 30 minutes, but has gone down again.....however, am sure this has been a huge disruption. What can I expect?

Finally, he is 9 months now. Given the sleep problems we've been having despite having had an excellent run of 3 months when we first sleep-trained him, and given this latest disruption because of this trip, we're debating if we should sleep-train him all over again. By that, I mean:
a) Do away with any props like the walking/singing/gentle rocking, if required
b) Don't intervene until he's crying full-fledged
c) Don't use prolonged shush-pat to put him to sleep
d) Don't use bottle-feed as a prop to wind him down
and so on.

Do you think this drastic step is required, or can we just tweak our current situation with improved schedules / reduced props etc to improve his sleep?

On new skills - yes, he has learnt to pull himself up to his feet by holding on to the top edge of the cot. Standing up is the new skill - is that causing the problems I've been mentioning (prior to this trip)?

[Haribo2012]

Hi, sounds like lots has been going on.
Are you still giving LO 3 naps on a regular basis because at 9 months this will really be interfering with sleep in general? You are probably only getting short nights because of the late cat nap, honestly I think you need to try and keep with 2 naps and a maximum of 13 hour day.
Your schedule below shows him up at 6 but in bed at 9pm which way too long a day.

That first nap needs to be pushed out till later on, at 9 months old your A time should be around 3.5 hours so your still getting an UT/OT loop probably and it's not helping your nights. If there hasn't been enough A time LO won't settle easily into sleep and will be UT.

I would try WU 6am
Nap 9.30 hopefully 1.5 hours
Nap 2.30 hopefully 1.5 hours
BT 7pm
Move to these A times over a few days so do in 15 min steps for a couple of days then increase. You will need to move A time as soon LO will be starting 2-1 nap transition and this for some can start 10/11 months old.

I personally would give the milk feed in a different room, then go into bedroom for a cuddle, song etc then start nighttime, it could be wind down is a bit too long and stimulating.
Rocking, shushing etc is ok but you don't want to be doing it for a long time, just enough to get LO in a sleepy mood but not enough to be putting him down asleep.

I really think if you look at your day routine the settling to sleep will get easier. Here are some sample routines
chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months


hope that helps