4 1/2 month old nightwaking HELP!!!!

[Carters Mom]

I was just reading this post as it sounds very familar to what I'm experiencing and hope that I can get some advice too.
The rountine is pretty much the same as mine but my DS usually has 40 min naps (about 4 a day) and doesn't go to sleep for night until 8:30/9:00ish. I've tried to put him to bed around 7:30 but he'll just wake up 40 min later and cry like crazy so I just assume he's treating that as a nap and wants to be up.
He was weaned from his pacifier a month ago (cold turkey) and I do the shh/pat but have been doing it till he falls asleep.
Any suggestions?

[Colin Macs Mom]

Those naps are a problem for sure - he's in a cycle of overtiredness. Good day sleep leads to good night sleep, and he's not getting either. Can you post your full routine so we can see? Have you tried extending the naps?

[Carters Mom]

Sure here is the routine

Up - 8:15 (usually between 8 and 8:30)
BF -9:30
Nap- 10:30 to 11 (or 11:15)
BF - 12:30
Nap  - 1:00 to 1:30 (or 1:45)
BF - 3:30
Nap 3:30 (ish) to 4 (or 4:15)
BF 6:15
Nap 7:00 to 7:45
Bath/Massage: 8:00 to 8:30
BF 9
Bed 9 (usually he's in bed between 8:30 and 9:10)

wakes up around 11:30 / 12:30  whereas I BF and BF 3:30ish and 6:30 ish
He usually wakes up every hour to 2 hours and some times just falls back to sleep as soon as I shh/pat him or it could take up to 45 minutes for him to fall back to sleep. Up anywhere from 5 to 8 times in a night.
I have tried to extend his naps by shh/pat but he just gets more agitated. occassionally he'll surprise me with an 1hr to 2 hr nap and always wakes up happy from those. 

[suzie767]

i suggest extending his naps using pu/pd rather than shush/pat. my ds is 10 weeks old and has the same problem i tried shush pat and found it didnt really help however i am already seeing results from this. his naps are longer and he goes down on his own.

i also recomend sticking as close as possible to the 4 hour easy as my ds is on 3 hour easy and apart from the short nap problem over the last week or so he has thrived on it

[Carters Mom]

I'll give the pu/pd method for trying to extend his naps; how long should I keep at it if he doesn't seem to go back to sleep before I give up and just wait until next nap time?

[momofclaire]

I would try w2s before pu/pd. Have you tried that yet?  Pu/pd should be a last resort. 

[Carters Mom]

I'm not sure how to do w2s; where can i find more info on that?

[momofclaire]

Here is  link on it.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0
Although Pu/pd is very effective it is not an easy thing for mama or baby.  I would try other things first. W2S has helped me extend naps in the past.  If you have more questions I would be happy to help or find someone who can.

[Carters Mom]

thanks for the link; I'll give this a try and keep you posted.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Just remember that W2S can take at least three days to kick in.

[suzie767]

hi wake to sleep does work well, i would agree to try this first and also other soothing methods,(talking gently, stroking and patting etc) however i didnt find any of these to work very well with my son and was having to resort to props to get my baby to nap. w2s doesnt work for me as he never awakes fro his naps at the same time so i dont really know when to disrupt his sleep cycle. i have adapted pu/pd slightly which seems to be really working for my baby where i dont lift him all the way from his cot i just lift the upper half of his body and cuddle him until he stos crying. this seems less stimulating and traumatic

[Carters Mom]

I tried w2s for his morning nap and believe I was successful in extending it to 1 1/2 hrs instead of just 40 min. Unless he was just so zonked from waking up 8 times last night....
his late morn/early aft nap wasn't a go only because we were out and about and he slept in his car seat while driving. He's on his after noon nap right now and I'm going to attempt w2s again.fingers crossed.

[suzie767]

let me know if it workscos i tried it with my lo yesterday and it didnt work and he woke up anyway

[Carters Mom]

It worked again in the afternoon yesterday, but haven't had the chance today because I had an unexpected trip to take so he slept in the car.

But very frustrating night again last night...so tired of him waking up 8 times in a night. I'm offically on the sleep deprived wagon. I hope this ends soon

[suzie767]

its my days that are a nightmare and i tell myself every day tomorrow will be easier. as long as i keep believeing that i can make it through the day. im sure it will get easier eventually and all we can do is remind ourselves that out little darlings are worth it all

 

[momofclaire]

Caters Mom- I would try to get a weeks worth of good naps under your belt and then we can see how the night wakings are.  Does he wake at the same time for any of the wakings?  Have you been writing it down?  You can do w2s for habitual night wakings as well.  This means setting your alarm and waking before the lo to do it but I have had moms who have had great success with this.  If it's working for naps you might think about it.

[Carters Mom]

It seems to be happening between the hours of 12 - 3 am every night, thats when he'll wake up pretty much every half hour and then the hours before and after the frequent wake ups he'll sleep for 2 to 3 hour stretches. I'm concerned it has something to do with props. I went cold turkey with his soother on Feb 1 and he seems to be fine (especially during the day) but then this started up. I was so frustrated and upset last night I broke down and put the soother in his mouth last night and he just wanted to play with it and it didn't really settle him down. I do the shh/pat and I really hope it doesn't become a prop. Also he's very gassy at night; I don't eat dairy as the doc thinks he might have some lactose issues and I can't feed him anymore than every 3 hours or he'll be REALLY REALLY gassy. he wakes himself up crying because he needs to pass gas. Any ideas? I do write down everything in a daily journal.

[momofclaire]

First I wouldn't give the soother back. If he hasn't had it since Feb 1 then leave it out of the picture. Shh/Pat is a sleep training tool and can't become a prop.  Are you doing anything in particular that you think is going to become a prop?  Holding, rocking etc?  For the gas have you tried gas drops like mylicon?  My dd was a gassy girl when she was little.  I found what helped the most was to bicycle her legs at every diaper change.  The movement helps get things out.  I think they tend to have more trouble because of their limited mobility. 

Also repeated waking usually signals hunger.  Do you feed him at the first wake 12:00? 

[Carters Mom]

I've thrown the soother out...i was so frustrated last night I thought I'd try it then was mad at myself for breaking. I use gripe water to help with the gas (apparently its not really working all that well). Yes I do feed him when he wakes up around 12:00 and then not again until 3 or 4 hours later.

[momofclaire]

How have the daytime naps been? Are you still doing w2s?  Are you putting him to bed any earlier? One more thought, have you started solids?

[Carters Mom]

His daytime naps have been good the last few days (yes I have been using w2s). He's sleeping for at least an hour and up to 2 hours now for at least one nap. No i haven't started solids; was thinking I might. He's a big boy 17 lbs/solid boy, do you think it might be a good idea to start on some?

[momofclaire]

No. I was actually asking because sometimes a mom will start solids and then it disrupts sleep.  Many babies have trouble with solids esp this early.  I wouldn't start until night sleeping is better as least.  The new rec are to wait till 6 months. 

[ada320]

By no means am I any expert, but my 4 month old and I went through this same thing.  His naps were really short so over time he starting waking a lot at night.  He was just overtired.  I did the w2s thing which worked some.  I also breastfeed, but I had to start giving a bottle a day to give him some meds.  Anyway, I found that he has been hungry this whole time.  He wasn't showing any hunger sign just fussyness all the time.  I had plenty of milk, but he seemed to eat better out of the bottle. 

I do have to say his naps are better, he stopped being fussy during wake time and we have had two nights of him sleeping through the night.  I hope it continues but I thought I would share.

Good luck because I know I almost lost my mind. 

[Carters Mom]

The w2s is helping for his naps which is great. I think he is hungry but I can't even give him a bottle because thats a battle all on its own. He used to take bottles fine but then when he didn't have a bottle for a month he wouldn't have one. I'll have to go from breast to sippy cup with no bottle I think. Last night was an okay night...I think the we're on to something here with w2s for his naps.

keep you posted.

[suzie767]

hi ada 320. so you think the short nap problem may be caused by hunger? my lo will only nap for 45 mins and wakes up crting- i have tried wake to sleep and just about everything else but nothing works. he sleeps fantastic at night and i dread his short naps affecting this.

my baby is 11 weeks old and eats between 3-4/1 onces of formula at a feed. he eats less during the day but i just assumed he eats more at night as his feeds are further apart and he is more relaxed.

he never drains his bottle and i stop feeeding him when he gets fussy so i had more or less ruled out hunger.

do you think this may be the problem and do i have any way around it?

thanks again

 

[ada320]

Hello Suzie 767,

I am not sure if this is what is going on with you, but it is worth a shot.  Do you cluster feed towards the end of the day?  I started doing cluster feeding at the end of the day and did the dreamfeed.  I also found that if my son stopped feeding during the day I would just take a few minute brake and try again.  He usually would eat another 2 oz. or so.  I also tried different position when feeding him.

One other thing I noticed is that he didn't know how to put himself back to sleep.  I thought I wasn't rushing in but I guess I was.  I gave him alittle more time when he woke (it didn't happen over night)and now he just talks himself back to sleep.  I thought it was a passy addiction, but now we hardly use it to put him to sleep.  Keep trying w2s.  It works sometimes and others it doesn't but i think it works. Saying this I do have to say I did alittle bad parenting.  My son never used to like the swing to sleep and one day out of fustration I put him in it and it worked.  I started putting him in it for one nap a day to try to brake the cycle of no sleep during the day.  The other naps I put him in the crib.  I think that might have helped some in learning to put himself back to sleep.  (The motion of the swing?)  I am not sure it could have been pure luck that he figured this out.

I no it is frustrating and I am sure I will have to deal with something else soon.  Good luck and keep me posted.  (I am not sure if you have been staying at home a lot because of this, but I found myself with no patients and really unhappy during this time.  I decided to go out and do some errands for myself with the baby for a couple days.  You might go off your schedule some, but it will help you calm down and the baby will probably notice a more calm mom too.

I hope some of this works for you and have a great day.

[Carters Mom]

I too think I might have been rushing into his room a little to soon or actually waking him up when I started to do the shh/pat thing during nighttime. The last couple of days I've put him in his crib for naps and he cried as usual (I used to do shh/pat till he fell asleep) and now I just put my hand on his chest, tell him its okay and I'm here and then I left the room. He cried for up to 4 minutes (longer than you think when you are looking at the clock) and he fell asleep. And then I go in and do the w2s thing; which has been working. So ...at night I would go in make sure he wasn't wet/hungry/pain and then do the same thing. He has been falling asleep. I was worried about the "cry it out" method and while I don't feel like I'm just leaving him to deal on his own; he is learning to put himself back to sleep and I do go in and check in on him if its been more than 5 minutes.
I'm feelling less frustrated now. I also notice now he wants to get up for the day in between 6 and 7 instead of me bringing him to my bed at that time so "I" can get more sleep. He has a little extra nap in the day and it seems to be working.

it hasn't been a week yet with this new theory/method...but I'm feeling good.
The other thing that I realized was that at night I felt like I had to hurry up and get my DS to stop crying because I felt guilty for the rest of the household. I didn't want to keep them up. Well...now they are just going to have to learn to put a pillow over their head.

[suzie767]

i think part of my problem is rushing in too. i used to automatically shh/pat when ever he mumered and i think i might have been waking him up. now i leave him when he fusses and more often than not he drfits off by himself and also occassionaly he wakes up crying has a few short bursts of very whingey crying ( as if hes still asleep) then falls back off and has an hour and a half sleep. the real problem is when he wakes up after 45 mins and screams until i shh him. then he will cry every 5 mins until his next feed time and some days i feel as though ALL i am doing is soothing him. i dont want him to feel abandoned but i do want to teach him to sleep on his own.

perhaps a few days out and about may break this pattern- i will give this a try.

also when the problem first started i made his room as dark and quiet as possible however we still have tv on after bedtime ( he sleeps in our room) and we talk openly and he sleeps well on a night so may it be that it is too quiet during the day?

its so hard to know what is best

[ada320]

That sounds about what I did with teaching him to go to sleep on his own.  I think I was so worried about crossing the line of letting him cry it out I almost made myself crazy.  I found that my son doesn't even like the wind down routine.  He starts to arch his back as soon as I walk into the dark room.  I lay him down and most of the time he goes to sleep with out crying but there are days he does.  I tried the sh/pat but I think that got him going more.  I found I have to stand back in the room or leave for him to fall alseep.  I never let him cry longer than 5 minutes either.  I think it gets his frustration of falling asleep out and then he goes right to sleep.

I think this will eventually help with naps.  Because your lo with learn to fall alseep for naps the same way and they soon will get longer and longer.

Don't worry about the crying thing at night.  My husband has learned to tune him.  I guess that could be a good thing and a bad thing.

Suzie767

Have you tried a fan or a noise maker in his room?  That seems to drown out noise and I think it soothes them.

[Layla]

Hi Ladies - just wanted to give my 2 cents  .

Carter's mum - I agree with Jessica and everyone else who has suggested that you try and extend your lo's naps as good day sleep will result in good night sleep. You mentioned that you think you might have been rushing to your lo too soon... does he cry a mantra cry or is it something else? If its a mantra cry, then I would say he is learning how to self-settle and you might need to stand back but i personally don't think that you should let him cry if its any other cry. 5 mins might seem harmless but please understand that it might be in the long term.

Shh/pat cannot become a habit and if your lo is crying, I would try soothing him with other methods, maybe just try patting his back and saying re-assuring words ("Its ok, go to sleep....."). Some babies find the shushing annoying so there are variations of shh/pat. My lo hated being shushed so I would stay with her, rubbing her back and humming to her. She was also on a paci until 4months, so yes, he is only just learning how to self-soothe but I do think its important for you to be there. Of course if he is just murmuring and not really crying, then leave him but if its a cry and not a mantra cry, try and attend to him.

I also agree on getting "white noise" like a fan or something. I've been using a fan for Jasmine for all naps and nightsleep. It might help him resettle at night easier.

I know what you mean about worrying the cries will wake the rest of the house (including the toddler) up but tbh, my toddler has only been disturbed by the baby's cries a handful of times.

Take heart, this will pass. 4 months was a hard one for us as well and I think things only really started to settle around 5-6 months, when her naps extended beyonf 45mins. Also if your lo has only napped for 45 mins & you cannot get him beyond that, pick him up and watch his cues. Don't give him the full A time and offer him a nap when he shows tired signs (which could be in another 1.5 hrs). It might not look like true EASY but alot of babies are stuck on 45mins naps (especially at 4 months) and some don't extend beyond that until they are 5-6 months (so not too long to go  ). Keep the feedings at the same interval (3-4hrs) and have 4catnaps instead of 3naps in a day.

Good luck & let us know how your going
Layla

[ada320]

SO what do you do when you have a baby that stays awake when you are in the room?  What is crossing the line with the crying?  I guess I am confused on what is a Mantra Cry.  Sh/pat distracts him and pick up put down just gets him going more.  Also what is CC rather than CIO?

[suzie767]

yeah i agree with ada320- its hard to know what a mantra cry is. are these very short bursts of crying? how can you tell? if your baby doesnt quiet after 20 seconds or so is it a real cry? sometimes my baby settles after a few minutes of crying which is very whingey and doesnt get louder and louder(its almost as if he is half asleep) i assumed this was his mantra cry.

id hate to think i was letting him cry unneccesarrily

xx

[Colin Macs Mom]

A mantra cry is what LOs do to resettle themselves and self-soothe. It's important to identify this so that you don't interfere if that's what LO is doing. It's very rhythmic, on a discernable beat and does not escalate. Sometimes it's a not a cry but just a noise. My DS makes a sound like he's eating something really yummy - like mmmmm-mmmmm-mmmmm....

Ada to answer your question CC is when you let LO cry and go in and pat or whatever and then leave again. Wait 5 minutes and go in again... and so on. CIO is when you just leave LO and don't go in at all.    You should know that BW does not support either of these methods whatsoever. They break the trust between parent and child, and don't teach sleep. All that LO will learn from either of those methods is that you won't be there when he/she needs you.

[ada320]

I usually leave him when he is talking or what i think is a mantra cry.  I still have the question of my baby not falling alseep when I am there.  What do I do then?

[momofclaire]

If your baby is simply not falling asleep maybe you should look at your sch.  What are you doing to get him to sleep.
If he falls asleep after doing the mantra then you don't have to be there.  Some babies are too stimulated by a parents presence in the room, however if he is crying then he needs you.

[suzie767]

colin macs mum- sometimes my baby makes bursts of quite loud crying ( it is real crying i think it actually sounds quite deperate) but by the time i get to him- even if im just in the next room- he has almost stopped or stopped altogether and can go back to sleep. i dont want to let him cry but if he stops on his own without me having to intervene do i have to let him know im there or is it ok to leave him be?

 

[Colin Macs Mom]

You are just fine to leave him be then. Some LOs just need to do something like that as sort of an outlet before sleep. If he needs you he'll let you know. 

[suzie767]

thanks again colin macs mom- i'll get there in the end! ( fingers crossed )

 

[Colin Macs Mom]

You will - things just take time and patience unfortunately!

[ada320]

suzie767-That is the cry mine does.  It sounds like he is about to freak out but then stops.  Good to know that is the mantra cry.  Thats when I have been walking out (along with him talking to himself)of the room cause if I stay he starts to really cry but if I go then he goes to sleep. 

Thanks for the clarification!

[suzie767]

no problem! thanks to you too and to colin macs mom.

there is a very fine line between letting them cry and rushing in. this has cleared thinks up for me a lot too and might help with my nap problem.

 

[Colin Macs Mom]

It really is a fine line - it just takes some time to figure out what works. It's not a lot of fun but it pays off in the end.

[Carters Mom]

Well its been a few days and I feel like there has been a world of difference in my house. I've been successful at extending his naps (90% of the time) and his night waking has decreased from 8 times to 3 times. I'm still BF every 3 or 4 hours (even during the night as he wakes up freaking out and I believe he's hungry). I've noticed that if I'm not successful at getting him back to sleep during his short nap that he will go back to sleep after an hour of low key activity. I was confused as to what a mantra cry was too and that has made a difference. I feel like I have my evenings back and even though I'm still getting up in the middle of the night its much more managable.

When I told my sister that I was trying to extend his naps she thought I was crazy...she didn't understand that my DS wasn't getting any deep sleep during the day and she thought that he just was a short napper who didn't need a lot of sleep. Ohhhh how this website and the BW has opened my eyes and has helped dramatically.

[Colin Macs Mom]

That's great to hear Carters Mom, glad we could help