2.5 year-old bedtime antics... any suggestions?

[Lilah'sMommy]

So Lilah has been talking herself to sleep for up to an hour or more for quite some time-- probably about 4 months or so.  When her chatter reached the 2-hour+ mark, we made changes to her daytime routine-- limited her nap-- and that helped.  But since her sister's arrival, she has been getting out of bed, screaming, stripping off her pajamas and diaper, asking to go peepee over and over, demanding that we cover her up with her blamket for the 800th time, and until we got a door knob cover for her door, was running out of her room over and over laughing like it was just the greatest game (we've always closed her door, as we live in a small 2-bedroom apartment to cut down on the noise in her room, so I didn't feel like I was "locking" her in her room-- in other words, she's never been afraid of having the door closed).  At first we figured that it was because of Iris's arrival, and we'd just wait it out.  It has improved quite a bit since then, but it's still a full hour most nights of these antics.  For a short time we let her skip her nap and that did help for a bit, but then she started up with this again, even though I know she was exhausted, and I need a break during the day, so we reinstituted nap.  She does this whether her sister is in her room or with us (goal is to have them in the same room), but probably happens for less time if her sister is there... though it's hard to have her there every night at her bedtime, as Iris is very hard to settle for sleep, and it just will not happen with Lilah asking what I'm doing and talking constantly the whole time I'm there.

Here is her routine:

8:00 am wake up (I usually need to wake her after her late night antics)
12:30-2:30 nap (though it usually takes at least half an hour for her to settle for this nap-- if it takes a really long time, I might let her sleep as late as 3:00, but no later)
7:00-7:30 start bedtime routine
8:00-8:30 lights out
an hour or more of bedtime circus and she's usually asleep between 9:00 and 10:00.

Anything routine-wise I should tweak, and any other suggestions?  We're trying a sticker chart now.  Last night was the first night and it was better (quiet in half and hour), but there was still more acting up than I care for.  Luckily her sister slept through it.

[Lilah'sMommy]

Nap is rarely 2 hours... usually it takes her a half hour to settle.  And she sleeps about 10-10.5 hours at night after all that partying and yelling... do you think I should wake her even earlier than 8:00?  Or put her to bed later?  I still takes a long time for the party to die down when she goes to bed late.

[Lilah'sMommy]

I'm usually up well before 8 anyway with Iris, so may think about waking her earlier... though I really enjoy that hour or so that I have with just Iris, KWIM?  I think we'll start with trying a later bedtime and see if it helps at all.

[Samuel's mum]

Sam has now finally dropped his nap. He's up around 7.30 and down around 7.00. So that's 12.5 hours usually. When he was napping we had trouble settling - often an hour or so of 'negotiation'. I find if he ever falls asleep on a car journey -even for 10 minutes on the way home - it can make a difference again.

Out of interest - what is your actual bedtime routine? Might that be tweakable? Our last step is in the dark with Sam's head on the pillow and me 'telling' a story to Sam and his neatly arranged animals. How's the wind down?

[rooby-rooby-roo]

To be honest i think that it is probably more behavioural and age appropriate behaviour. We went through exactly the same thing with Ruby at exactly this age.

We tried many different approaches to deal with it, some more effective than others!! Supernanny suggests putting them to bed in their normal way then leaving the room. Next time you have to go in put her back in bed and say 'goodnight darling' and tuck her in. Next time just 'goodnight' and then any further times say nothing, just put her in the bed and leave. Now this didn't work to well for us as Ruby would just get irate that we weren't replying to her!!!

We made sure to give her plenty of opportunity for last wee, drink etc and gave warning that this is the last one. Eventually things got so bad that we had to strip her room down to nothing but a bed as she was climbing up and sitting on the top of the 6ft high shelves etc!! We also had the door shut, but she would bang on it v loudly, so we tried a gate, which she would just rattle and shake, and then throw all her bedlinen over!!

Bottom line is perseverance, we have been there and it took a long time to get over, probably 6months (sorry!). Really i think it lasted until she went through an emotional growth spurt and seemed to just 'grow up' a bit overnight!!

HUgs x x

[imsmum]

Her schedule doesn't look that different from my 2.5 year old with a 10 or 10.5 hour night and 1.5 hour nap. 

I actually think that you nap might be a bit early given her wakeup time--only about 5 hours after wakeup and she has a good 7 hours after she wakes from the nap before bed which is probably contributing to the antics.  i think most 2+ year olds who still take a nap of longer than an hour can go 13.5 to 14 hours after wakeup (including nap)-they're just not ready to go to bed before that.  If they've napped too early in that time frame they can get a bit whipped up around bed--at least that's what I've noticed with Margot.  I think most lo's this age do about 6  or 6+hours before nap, 5.5 to 6 after.  So I think that you need to move the nap to a more appropriate time in her schedule.

If you prefer her going down earlier at night and waking earlier in the morning you can go ahead, keep nap time the same but start waking her early in the morning maybe in 15 minute increments and try putting her down at night that much earlier as well although I suspect it will take a while for her to slowly start sleepiing earlier to night because she is going to have to reset her body clock.

[Fiona (Leah & Kians Mom)]

Hi Sabrina,
I don't have any real advice for you as we had antics on and off for a while only dd is luckily still in her cot so cant actually get out. That though will change in the next couple of months.
I just thought I would share our routine with you so you might get an idea of other toddlers sleep patterns.
7.30 Awake or if not I wake her ( happens rarely)
13.00 Nap , can take between 15 and 30 mins to settle for this she talks and sings to herself
14.30 Up regardless even it its only an hour, if by any chance she slept straight away at 13.00 then I would wake her at 14.15. I found an hour and 15 mins to be just the right amount of naptime at the moment.
19.30 max 19.40 Bed. Sleep time can take 40 minutes to an hour, again just chatting and singing at the top of her voice. The closer I get her to 7.30 the earlier she sleeps so gets a bit more night time sleep cos she wakes at the same time regardless.
The singing and talking to herself and her teddy have been going on since August so 6 months now and we have gone through periods where we did walkin walkout as she was unsettled,crying and calling for me.
HTH a bit

[Lilah'sMommy]

I would try something like
8:30 bedtime and hopefully asleep by 9
wake her at 8am.
Nap 12:30 and we hope asleep by 1
Wake her at 2:30 from nap
so that way shes doing 6-6.5 before bed and may cut down the parties before bed. 

Would be around 11 at night 1.5 nap and then thats about normal.  If it doesnt swap around then yeah i wo uld try waking like 7. 

This is what we're already doing.

As for moving the nap later, imsmum, if she naps past 2:30, it's much worse.  Cutting out the nap altogether might help, as it did in the past, but then issues arose again.  I really think Clair has hit it on the head-- it's just behavioral and I just need to wait for her to outgrow it!  Last night was better... hope that trend continues!  At least her sister, once asleep, is staying asleep through it all... I don't know how, but she is!

[Lilah'sMommy]

Yeah, I might try an hour nap... think I'll leave it till the weekend, though!   No sense in losing my very rare "me" time for something that might or might not work without DH around to give me some breathing room!

As for the quiet time, yes, I would like to keep that up, but as I've said, she's not all that quiet!  The only time she stops talking is when she's asleep, and eventually I'd like her sister to have all of her naps in their room, too (she currently naps in my room when Lilah is napping just so I don't need to disturb Lilah's nap if Iris is up early or needs helps settling... because if she's awake when I'm trying to settle Iris for a nap, forget it!  She talks constantly!

[sandraorion]

Sabrina,

How about if you just make her bedtime later and leave the nap alone. She gets to spend more time with dad, you still get your me time, and that's when she falls asleep anyway. Just a thought.

[Lilah'sMommy]

Sandra, we are currently trying that out and it seems to be helping.  However, once the dust settles after having our new baby, it would be nice to have a bit of alone time with DH when we're both able to stay awake!  Right now, though, it helps a lot to let her stay up later, spend 1-on-1 time with her dad while I get the baby to bed and in a deep sleep so she doesn't wake when her noisy sister comes into the room, and then she's a bit more ready for bed.  Maybe by the time DH and I are able to stay awake past 9:30, she'll be ready to drop her nap, and she'll have started preschool (I hope) and will be REALLY tired when bedtime comes and we can push bedtime back a bit again.  But a later bedtime seems to work better right now than an earlier rise time, as she is REALLY grumpy and out of sorts if by chance she wakes earlier than about 7:45, and I don't notice that she's any more ready for bed when the time comes.

[Lilah'sMommy]

Another interesting bit of info... tonight it was me alone for bedtime as DH had to work late, and guess what?  Almost NO trouble from my little girl!  She asked me to tuck her in right after I left, so I went in again, and reminded her about her sticker chart and reward for good bedtime behavior, and that was it!  She was asleep by 8:30 (when I do the bedtime routine we always end up finshing in much less time, so she was in her room at about 8:10)!  And last time DH had to work late, same kind of thing.  My new theory is that she's trying to get more Baba (our word for Daddy) time.  He's an awesome dad and spends a great deal of his time at home with her, does her whole bedtime routine while I tend to the baby, so I can't see how we can get more Baba time in a weekday.  Any suggestions?

[sandraorion]

Hmm, that is interesting info. It will be interesting to see how long she sleeps today and how her routine changes with that extra sleep.

Regarding the dad difference. Is he generally softer with her? With us it's opposite, I'm not softer one and it takes me longer to get Adrian down. When daddy does it, it's much quicker because he doesn't need to go potty, drink water, get another hug and another story...Well, you get the picture.

[Lilah'sMommy]

DH is just as firm about enforcing "the rules" as I am, but every bit of the bedtime routine takes longer because he has the patience to sit through a 20-30 minute bath while she plays (it's 10 minutes tops with me), and probably indulges her sudden burst of energy at bedtime a bit more.  Do you think the longer bedtime routine could be getting her overstimulated and making it harder to settle?  My other theory is that she knows the two of us are up together and think we're having a party that she wants to be invited to.  When it's just me, she knows there's no party.

[Lilah'sMommy]

Nope, I don't pump.  So I have to be there for Iris's bedtime nursing-- though that doesn't take long because she's a very efficient nurser.  Also, DH is home on weekdays pretty much only for dinner and bedtime, so letting him do it gives her that special Baba time.  But I will ask DH to limit her bath time-- he's good about limiting the number of stories and number of songs we sing while we cuddle (that last bit we do together, and the stories, too, if DD2 is already down).

Oh, and BTW, even though she was asleep by 8:30 last night, she still woke up at 10 minutes to 8:00.  With a 1.5 hour nap that afternoon.  And it was raining in the afternoon yesterday, so we couldn't go out to play-- meaning we didn't have a very tiring afternoon to get her extra tired for bed, either.  So I'm not sure it's an issue of sleep time.