Gro Clock Help for Nwings and Ewings

[Tao]

Hello BW Friends!

We recently introduced the Gro Clock (2 weeks now) with our 3 year old and it has helped us in many ways. However, I think I can be more effective and consistent with it so I wanted to pick your brain to see how you taught your LO's to stay in their rooms when they had EWings (which is VERY VERY common in my household).

Just a bit of history, DD2 was just born recently and DD1 decided to start refusing BT, plus she is going through 1-0 nap so we are struggling with that. She can handle about 3 days of no nap and then NWing hell begins. In the past, we go in there, cuddle her in the recliner until she is drowsy and then put her down. Usually this works but takes several times. After the third day we can usually APOP a nap but then that started creating BT refusal. With the help BWers, we have found a method that works and I tell S that if she lays down then mommy will leave the door open. Otherwise, we close the door and actually had to hold the door closed a few times during BT until she got the point that she had to stay in her bed instead of running out!

Now, BT has gone smoother to where she will lay down and drift off without much fight so long as door as open. In the past when she had EWings (like this morning, 4:45!!) I go in there and hold her in the recliner and hope that she'll get in another hour. We make her stay in the room with us until Mr. Sun comes up and she's actually followed through. However, with the new baby, I can't sit in there with her and I need to train her to just stay in her bed on her own. I introduced the idea to her this a.m. I lay her in the bed and told her that she had to stay in bed until Mr. Sun came. The problem was Mr. Sun was set for 6:30 and it was a very very long wait for her. She did it but was screaming most of hte time.

Here are my questions:

1) We set Gro clock for 6 a.m. tomorrow though she wakes most days at 5 a.m. 6 a.m. is what DH and I want but should I set it back a little bit and slowly add more time? Will it be unsuccessful if she has to wait an entire hour the first time around?

2) She asked me this morning if she could have books and read because that's what we do for quiet time and I probably shouldn't haev done this but I allowed her. After talking to other moms, I like the idea of Mr. Moon meaning night time PERIOD so no reading etc. I'm thinking over time she will be able to do this and eventually fall asleep again...I would prefer the room to stay dark so she has the opportunity to drift back if she wants. What are your thoughts on this?

3) What did you do to keep your kids in their bed when training them to use the Gro clock in the beginning? I need to be able to nurse my baby without having to hold DD1 at 445 in the morning.

4) Should I do the same thing for Nwings? Usually I go and hold her till she is calm again. HOnestly, I'm a bit afraid to rock the boat for NWings and tell her no extra cuddle, especially since a lot of the times it is due to nightmares. What do you guys do?

Thanks so much for your insight! This 1-0 thing is so hard but if I can get S to get more sleep in the a.m. or at least give us more sleep...everyone would be happier =)

[*Becky*]

Hi Christine,
I will try to answer your questions.
1. If her usual wake time is 5am then I would set it for 5.15/30am ish on the first day so that she does not have to wait too long and then push it back slowly. An entire hours is too long.
2. Yes keep the room dark and I would not give any books or toys at this point. She needs to know that until Mr Sunshine comes u it is not morning time.
3. My DS stayed in his bed until the sun came up so not sure how to keep her there. I guess if she comes out of the room you need to return here but otherwise I would not interact with her. Do you have a stair gate on the door?
4. For NWings I do go in to DS room but for EW's I don't. I go in, reassure him and put his cover back etc. I think just keep it as low key as possible.
xx

[Tao]

Thanks Becky... Ok so we have really been struggling with the clock working for ewings. For nwings i suspect she is still tired so I can go in there give her one cuddle, tell her to lay down and she will fall back asleep after she comes out of bed. However in the am like this morning she was up at 430 and she ran to our room so I walked her back and told her mr sun is not out yet. She kept getting out of bed and I kept having to bring her back literally for an hr until mr sun came on by that time!

The whole goal was to give us mOre sleep and her an opportunity to go back to bed but it's like she is too awake to do that. Not sure how to reinforce morning wake up...

[Chicane]

That sounds pretty normal to me. It can take a while for the clock to start working and you do kind of just have to keep saying it over and over again until they get it. I agree with Becky starting at an hour is too long. We were in same boat as you with 5.30am wake ups so we started at 5.45 and moved slowly forwards. We are now getting wake ups between 6.30 and 7am. I would say the clock works 8 times out of 10. Every-so-often he wakes up earlier and says "I didn't wait for the suuuuuunnnnnnn!" Hmmmm....

We don't do books...I think we just kept doing the same thing. 'The sun's not up yet' over and over. At first I would wait in bed with him for the sun to come up and keep saying, "We can't get out till the sun comes" he would cry a little but I would just let him know I was there and he could cry, its okay.

Is she still napping in the day? Because if so it may help to cap that nap a bit. Also as you have another BFing LO maybe the EW's can become DH's domain so that you can do what you need to do without worrying about it.

[*Becky*]

yes it sounds normal to me too. DS fought the clock for a good 3 months on and off but we stuck with it and he still now at 3.5 stays in bed (and he is spirited!) I have to say I am pretty strict and consistent with it because i believe with these spirited kids you need to be so even if it is/was 5 mins before the sun came up I would not go in, I would just talk through the door and remind him that when the sun comes up I will come in.

At first I would wait in bed with him for the sun to come up and keep saying, "We can't get out till the sun comes" he would cry a little but I would just let him know I was there and he could cry, its okay.

I did this too when we first started (he was 22 months)

Good luck xx

[Tweakster]

Frankly, the whole 'you have to stay in bed until the sun' would never work with Finn.  It used to kind of, but the older he gets, we can't force him to stay in bed unless we physically held him there.  He's not one for subtleties.

So we allow him to hang out quietly in his room with the caveat that if he opens his door we will put the door handle spinny thing back on it.  He knows that will mean he's locked in so he doesn't open his door often (except right now when we're in the middle of a sleep issue). Typically he was waking between 6 & 6:30 and staying in his room until 6:40 weekdays and 7 on weekends. 

So we base ours off the time he's been asleep, if he's been in bed for 10 hrs and wakes - he's very unlikely to go back to sleep.  He can now read his books with his small light on.  If it's before 10 hrs sleep then DH will typically go in and tell him it's still night and to get back into bed.  In either case, he's in his room for 12 hrs...that's 12 hrs opportunity for rest.  He has once gotten back into bed to go back to sleep.  So the capability is there but needs a lot of maturity that he just doesn't have yet.

It used to work that Mr. Sun is morning etc but he's old enough now to know that is simply not the case - if it is light out, there's no point in arguing that it's still night IYSWIM?  He just knows that we're being arbitrary.  So we tell him that mommy and daddy are not available until Mr. Sun is on and that's when we start our day. 

I think as they get older with more understanding of night and day, you have to change the use of Groclock.

You have to find what works for you

[Tao]

Thanks for sharing. The hard thing is her wake up time keeps changing in the morning since she's on 1-0 drop it's hard for me to predict a good time to set the clock such that it's only 15 minutes more or so. For instance yesterday she woke at 5 so with your advice Becky, I set the clock to 5:20 which would've totally been manageable except this morning she woke at 4:30 a.m. so that put it back to an hour. In the midst of walking her back to her room (it was kind of funny) I had to say "wait one sec"...change the clock back to 5 and then wakl out. I guess I will just have to keep doing this and stick to my guns and pray that it will eventually work. I know that she may not go back to sleep as she rarely ever ever does but I'm hoping that if she can at least get some extra rest time that will help her with these no nap days.

Wendy-I like the door spinny thing idea. Right now our method is that if she stays in her bed, the door will remain cracked open. If you get out of bed, we close it. It's just hard because we keep having to put her back in there and the moment we leave she runs after us again. It's exactly what we went through a few weeks ago with her BT and I used the door open door close method with her then too but it's less effective in the a.m. I think because she's not as tired.

I"ll keep plugging along. Thanks Ladies.

[Tweakster]

Well there were times in the beginning that like Becky, DH sat with F until sun came on and then made a big song and dance about how great it was that F could wait and whatever.  So he started being pleased with himself and then telling us the next day, 'I waited until Mr Sun' etc.  But that didn't last forever.  Most days he will wait, but it's not infallible.

Now he just gets up and does his own thing in his room, which I really really want him to feel comfortable doing.  To me, in the age of fears, asking a kid to lie awake in a blacked out room until the sun comes up might frighten some of them.  Finn gets 'scared' so I don't want him to feel like he has to lie in the dark by himself.  But I also don't think that it's my job to socialize at that hour, my sleep is also important.  If he doesn't want anymore sleep, fine I can't force it, but I certainly do  want mine lol  So he can entertain himself but he can't infringe on the rest of the family.  So being loud or leaving your room is breaking the rule and taking advantage of the privilege.  So if he's not able to handle the responsibility of the privilege then we have to take it away until he can.  Which then means a door spinny thing. 

I guess if she's coming out even with the door closed then you could show her the spinny thing and let that be her next warning.  Or put up a gate at her door (Finn would just climb over it lol).  I know a person on here who stacked two gates vertically so that their LO couldn't get out.  But really, I think at 3 they are capable of some level of reasoning and understanding consequences so I don't think it needs to go that far.

I agree, if she's had 'enough' sleep that her body can't shut down and go back to sleep then she's likely ready to socialize, which is why she comes out.  And so it's hard to insist that she stay in the dark if she's already done her sleeping KWIM?  Unless you think she might go back to sleep?  I'm really doubtful that Finn ever will.  Once in a blue moon, maybe.

We don't have the added issue of a second LO though so I think if you are concerned about her waking the other LO, then you have to make stricter rules and enforcement.

[Tao]

Hi Wendy,

You are right and yes she only went back to sleep a handful of times. Most likely we will end up giving her the choice to read but the only thing I am worried is that she may want to read for nwings? Do u thunk that will happen?

[Tweakster]

We haven't had that happen so far...and that would be a no.  It's dark out, not time for socialization, get back to bed.  I think their sleep in the MOTN is very different from an EW when they have had just enough sleep to take the edge off.  Most kids anyway.  In the night they want to go back to sleep because their melatonin/hormone levels are telling them to sleep.  Some do get up and play in the night and then it's typically a routine issue or something else going on...illness, or habitual.

[Tao]

That makes sense and makes me feel better too. I love the idea of getting more sleep in the am especially after being up with dd2 at night. So u told Finn he could do whatever as long as he stayed in his room?

[babymunkey]

We do the same - DS had his early but I think from maybe 3 ish we've always said he could have books or quiet toys. Our rule was (is) that he can't disturb us - he can only leave his room to go to the loo. When we first had it, he had a stair gate on his door, so that stopped him physically coming out.

It did take a few months for him to consistently get it though.

One other thing - not sure where the line is but to me 4.30 is an NW and I would treat it as such. So I wouldn't be changing the clock for her to get up anytime before 6. But agree with others that you may have to work up to it.

[Tweakster]

So u told Finn he could do whatever as long as he stayed in his room?

Well not in so many words lol  We definitely tried the 'it's nighttime and go back to sleep' first.  But then after many times of him refusing to stay in his room or him yelling or crying from his room...we decided it was the lesser of two evils.  he would constantly shout 'I'm not tired' so we finally just said 'Fine.  You're not tired but we are so you can go ahead and look at books until Mr. Sunshine is on'.  And he seemed to appreciate that bit of independence so he left us alone...and still does most days.  When he's not waking at 4 a.m. and we're not glued to the monitor as we are these days, we just sleep knowing that he'll be up sometime around 10 hrs or more and live with that.  If his mood is crappy, we know the night was on the shorter end of things.

Agree 4:30 isn't a good time to set your clock.  Personally I wouldn't go earlier than 5:30.  5:30 is reasonable if kid went to bed at 7 or 7:30.

[Tao]

Ok that sounds great. I definitely think we are following in your footsteps Wendy! Sophie screams like the world is coming to an end and we have to bring her back to room so many times that the sun eventually comes out mid scream and then the little stinker will say "took mama I waited and sun is out... See u proud?" my dh and I look at each other like are you serious?!? Lol!

So I'll give it a week and see how things go. Since she hasn't been napping she has been doing quiet time instead and she has been good at that so I think she would do that in the am. Hopefully.

I know you guys are right that 430 is a nwing. We r trying so hard to tack onto her nights right now or at least give her as much night sleep as possible because she has always woken up no later than 5 or 530 despite the time we put her down at night erg.