Author Topic: 1-0 no idea need help  (Read 34009 times)

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Offline Straffles

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #255 on: December 15, 2014, 01:21:15 am »
I'm so lost.

Why the short night - is it because of the nap day stuffing everything up? Or is it because the nnd has made him too tired? Or because I pushed so hard yesterday? Shdnt I really just stick with the same bt rather than change it every day?

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #256 on: December 15, 2014, 09:28:19 am »
I think the short night may have been overtiredness, but it was a night waking not the start of the day.  Problem being that he has been used to it being 'ok' to wake at that time or just a touch later for quite a while now so may well have been hard for him to settle back off.  I can't say if it was the NND or the very long nap day which was the issue though.

You messaged me a couple of questions so I hope you don't mind I'll answer them here - it may just help another person struggling in a similar way to yourself.

When you went ct to no nap with a 6.30 set bt, what happened when you had 5am wus and couldn't keep J in her room til 6.30? How did you nanage with the ot if she couldn't do long nights?

How long wd you wait before back tracking?
If we had an early WU from J then I treated it as I would any other NW.  She was never and has never been allowed to start the day before 6.30am so I went in if she needed me, reassured, made sure she had her lovey, quick cuddle if needed, tuck back in, told her it was night time and I left.  That was enough maybe 9 times out of 10.  Sometimes I had to go back in but not often.  She didn't always go back to sleep, but mainly did.  We also used a gro clock-type thing and she knows she can't get up before the clock goes green.  In my mind there is no 'can't keep her in her room' - she does not come out until 6.30am, even if not sleeping, tantruming, whatever because I am the parent and that is the rule I set.  That's not meant to sound harsh or like 'tough love', it honestly is anything but as I would always respond to her need for me.  But I would not change the rule because it was difficult to stick to, that would be allowing her to be in charge of the situation.  Does that kind of make sense?

How did we cope with the OT?  We gave her every opportunity for sleep so sensible BT and not allowing her up before 6.30am.  Then accepted that choosing to sleep or not was her responsibility.  If OT caused NWs or EWs we dealt with them as above.  If it manifested in challenging behaviour or tantrums we handled those as normal, bearing in mind she was tired and that was likely the root cause.  We empathised (yes, you are very tired, it's hard to listen carefully when you're tired isn't it?  Etc etc) but still enforced whatever rule had led to the situation.  We also tried to avoid predictable triggers eg taking her round a busy supermarket or something when she was exhausted.  If she was clearly tired or had missed out on quite a bit of sleep we would also allow a 15-20 minute car nap in the afternoon (3pm ish was quite a good time for us) and usual set BT.  But we found when she was consistently doing NNDs we usually got a 12h night, even if it was a bit broken.

Back tracking.....well I think that's an individual decision.  At this point when things were messy we stuck with the set BT plan and decided to see it through.  We did similar with the 2-1 when it felt like nothing was working, did set nap and BT and rode it out.  So for me, once I'd decided the nap was going, we didn't back track other than the mini catnaps in the car as above.

I just picked up my copy of the BW for toddlers book and I wonder if you might find reading (or re-reading) chapter 8 about time busters/sleep deprivation helpful?  The are some good case studies and a plan for objectively looking at things to help you think it all through.  (((Hugs))) x

Offline Straffles

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #257 on: December 15, 2014, 10:31:36 am »
You make it sound so easy jessmum! Thank you for the reassurances. I will follow your model. Bit it is hard if he is tantruming to get up before 6.30...

I guess I just don't know if he is ready or not.

But our sleep totals including the last two nnds have been maximum 11hrs, minimum 9.25 hrs.

Thus makes me think he's not ready for nnd. If he sleeps 8.5 ons after an nnd how can he be?

Offline anna*

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #258 on: December 15, 2014, 10:38:13 am »
It can take time for night sleep to lengthe out after dropping the nap...





Offline Straffles

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #259 on: December 15, 2014, 11:18:03 am »
Thanks Anna - yes I've heard this.

So how do I know if he's ot and I've been pushing too hard or if he's ut and needs to drop the nap?

X

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #260 on: December 15, 2014, 11:52:58 am »
That 8.5h was on a nap day wasn't it?

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #261 on: December 15, 2014, 12:03:21 pm »
In my mind there is no 'can't keep her in her room' - she does not come out until 6.30am, even if not sleeping, tantruming, whatever because I am the parent and that is the rule I set.
Totally agree with this.  Our WU time was earlier but it was still set, you don't leave the room until then. Think about what you would say if another parent said to you "what do you do if you can't keep LO on the pavement and they just run into the road?" - you *don't let them run into the road*, you just don't. You do what is needed to keep that child healthy and safe, you set reasonable rules and stick to them.
Sorry I've forgotten what time you set the gro-clock for, if you feel it is too long a wait, if the wait is driving you both crazy you can bring it earlier (not 4 something though!). I think the earliest I ever had ours was perhaps 5.30am, but once he was sleeping to that time I moved it later because you don't want to instill a habit of waking that early (we were not in the nap drop transition when I introduced it and the circumstances were different to yours, he was much younger, teething too so my 'reasonable rules' took all of that into account)

We also tried to avoid predictable triggers eg taking her round a busy supermarket or something when she was exhausted.
I agree with all Katherine said, I wanted to say about this part, there were times I explained to DS we wouldn't be able to go to a certain place because he was too exhausted and it wouldn't be fair or safe.  Not as a punishment, I tried to make it very clear to him in my tone and attitude it was not punishment but caring parenting, looking out for him. Even so he missed out on a few trips to the soft play or play park because I knew he wouldn't be able to cope with the situation emotionally or physically, he would be in possible danger climbing slides etc.  Whilst I tried very hard not to nag him staying asleep when it was night time I did mention at key moments he *needed* to sleep so he would have a strong body and lots of energy to be able to play well and have fun. I sometimes said this at BT too reminding him to sleep until the sun was up so he would be a strong energetic boy the next day. also so that mummy wouldn't be tired and crabby!


Offline jessmum46

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #262 on: December 15, 2014, 12:58:14 pm »
You make it sound so easy jessmum!
(((Hugs))), no it isn't easy to actually be the one there dealing with it, and I know that. I can make it sound easy from a distance because I am able to see the situation a bit more objectively in a way that a person who is right in the middle of something can't, but that doesn't mean I don't find it difficult.  In fact I was in tears only yesterday at the thought of another broken nights sleep with my gorgeous but ever-so prone to NWing 6 month old.  So I do get it, the tiredness and anxiety and worry that you're not doing the right thing.  But it is times like those that I have been most grateful for this forum and the privilege of being able to bounce ideas off others who have been there. 

So how do I know if he's ot and I've been pushing too hard or if he's ut and needs to drop the nap?
I honestly think the only way to know is to try and run with it for a while.  Bearing in mind the end result of UT is also OT so until you give it a fair go with one plan it is almost impossible to say.  OT will come first regardless, but it's often the push needed to break through the other side.  Take heart from that fantastic sleep he did after your NND :).

Offline Straffles

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #263 on: December 15, 2014, 15:05:27 pm »
Sorry it's the middle of the night and I can't answer properly but...

Jessmum you say run with it a whole - I've been trying to run with the alternating routine and look at the ness! I done know which way to turn! Or were you saying I shd try ct to no nap? Run with it but how do you know if it's right or not? You see, I get these awful nights and huge ews if it's wrong. I don't sleep so...

But yes, this forum is anazibg and your replies just heart warming xxx

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #264 on: December 15, 2014, 19:06:38 pm »
You must be exhausted hun, I will be honest and say I am exhausted just reading how things are going for you.  I don't know what the 'right' routine is for you.  I honestly don't, none of us here do, not least because none of us can see Benji, how he's coping. 

I do wonder though if for the sake of *you* it would be best at this point to just set BT, drop the nap, and hand it over to Benji to sleep if and when he can.  Instead of constantly second guessing.  Honestly, I don't think even Benji probably knows if he's coming or going right now.  If through sheer exhaustion he happens to randomly fall asleep somewhere like the car, I'd give him 15-20 mins and wake him up.  Then power on through to bedtime.  That's what I'd do.  No it may not be 'right' but I'm worried you are going to make yourself very unwell over this :( :( 

Unfortunately bad nights and EWs are part of the territory, and it's something you are going to have to make peace with.  There is not a way through this with perfect nights, no night wakings and zero sleep deprivation.  You need to accept that to an extent, what happens is beyond your control.  The 'control' you can have is setting BT, and continuing to enforce night time with the gro clock.


Offline jessmum46

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #265 on: December 15, 2014, 19:08:01 pm »
Forgot to say my suggestion would be 6.30pm bedtime, with gro clock initially set for 5.30am (setting him up for success), but quickly moving that on towards 6/6.30am once he is able to stay quietly in his room until the desired time.

Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #266 on: December 15, 2014, 19:56:53 pm »
I just want to say I think you have had some wonderful advice here today and I back up everything that pps have said. Something creations said reminded me of the little booklet story I got with out gro-clock, did you get this with yours? It is a little story about an animal on the farm who doesn't sleep at night and then is too tired to do anything fun in the daytime, it talks about the gro clock and teaches that children (or animals in the case of the story) who go to bed nicely and stay in bed resting until the gro clock sun comes up have more fun in the daytime. My DD loves me reading this to her in the daytime and also sometimes at BT when we were setting the clock up.

If you don't have a copy with yours I'd be happy to scan it in and email it to you if you'd like to pm me your email.

For what it's worth, we too went to set BT when we were nap dropping, and we would also allow a 15/20 min car nap too if she was exhausted. We went with a slightly later BT as DD's routine is usually 7-7.30ish BT with about a 7ish WU (although BT was a lot later before she dropped the nap with shorter nights), but we did exactly as pps have described, treating all wakings before this time and reassuring her but she knew and learned that she had to stay in bed until the sun comes up.

Here with you honey xxx
~ Naomi ~




Offline Straffles

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #267 on: December 15, 2014, 22:49:51 pm »
You're all amazing thank you and advice is great :)

Benji slept 8-6.53 last night so I'm doing an nnd.

I don't know when to set bt. I was going to go for 6.30.

Bec has suggested trying 7, to see if he can do a 12hr day plus 11.5hr night. Then to push to 12.25hr day if he can. She's usually right!

But I can't imagine having to wait til 7 and keep him resting til 7 every morning :(

But if I do 6.30pm pd will I just stuff things up??

Offline Straffles

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #268 on: December 15, 2014, 22:52:11 pm »
Re the gro click: really confused about it.

If I set for 5.30, and he wakes, I will have to honour that as morning and get him up.

I've been putting it at 6.30 for nnds and changing it to 6ish if he wakes eRlier and I'm going for a nap day.

My head is spinning :-/

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Re: 1-0 no idea need help
« Reply #269 on: December 15, 2014, 22:55:55 pm »
Yes if you do set for 5:30 then you would have to get him up as daytime if he wakes, whatever time you set it for, you need to do a cheery "hello it's morning" if you go to him after the sun is up.

The reason creations was suggesting 5:30 was so that it is not a huge mountain of time for you to work to keep DS in the room if he's woken at 5ish. As she said, it sets him up for success and then you can slowly move it later so he gets used to the theory first and then you use it to stretch his nights.

If he's already sleeping beyond 6 with it then you could choose a later time. I think you probably do need to be consistent with it though for the first little while.
~ Naomi ~