15 weeks - please advise on EASY. UT or OT naps?

[Fefekabob]

Hi everyone,

My 15 week old has been short napping since he was born. First it was because of reflux... But once starting on meds, he's been fine. Then it was AP on my part (only would sleep in my arms). But two weeks ago I started ST and he has since learned how to fall asleep independently. However, now the issue seems to be with A times. Here is our current EASY. BTW, he is a big boy at 16lbs, and takes 6oz breastmilk at every feed:

--------------------------------------

WU/E: 6:00
S: (7:20 4S begins) 7:30-8:10
   Will babble for a while then cry, we shh/pat for a few min then he sleeps again
    8:30-9:30

E: 9:30
S: 11:00-11:35, same process as before
    11:50-12:45

E: 12:45
S: 2:15-2:50
    3:15-4:00

E: 4:00
S: 5:15-6:00

E:6:45
S:7:15

NF: 2:00am

---------------------------------

We are kind of doing 3 1/4 - 3.5 hour E. If I can fix his A, I think he could do 3.5 hour E.
So, I'm not too sure if all these 35 min naps are OT or UT naps. He really starts to get fussy at 1 hour 10min, but I know developmentally he should be at 1.5 hours A time. I'm just so confused as to what to do. I've pushed him to 1 hour 45min, and he will still do a 35 min nap.

I'm glad he can resettle for a second long nap, but I don't like that he has that interruption. It sometimes can take 20min to resettle him.

Any thoughts?
     

[creations]

Hi. At this age they are becoming more aware of their surroundings and more alert so the fussiness at 1hr 10 might be an indication he'd like a different activity or change of scene rather than a sleep. If you try a different activity this could distract him from his fussiness and also give him more/different stimulation which could help him stay awake longer and also give him a more peaceful sleep once it is nap time.
Yes it's about now you'd move to a longer A time, 1hr 45, but it looks like that might be tricky for a few days. I would try it and see how the naps go for 3 days.  You could also try a W2S (3 days on then hold off for a day to see if he's learned to stay asleep) if that nap WU is generally at the same time (35 - 40 mins into the nap). So go in at 30 mins and begin shush/pat or your adapted version and help him through that first transition. He may stir or even wake up but should stay more sleepy and be easier to settle rather than waiting for him to fully wake and then try to resettle.
What do you think?

[Fefekabob]

Hello again, creations! You always give such great advice. I'm going to try the extended A time for the next 3 days. I will also try W2S at the 30 min mark. Here's hoping we can fix this little routine mixup.

I'll keep you posted...

[creations]

good luck

[Fefekabob]

Hi,

So I have officially extended his A time to 1 hour 45 min and hes been doing great with that. The fussiness was definitely for boredom. And is E has consistently been 3.5 hours.

However, the nap lengths have not changed. For two days I have tried W2S. The version where I slightly wake him 5-10 min before and leave him, and the version where I gently pat 5-10min before and continue till he relaxes back into deep sleep.

Each time I ended up waking him a few minutes after I start. One time I extended his nap by 15 min. Otherwise it's been a bust.

The only difference is now its getting much harder to get the "second" longer nap to happen. Had to APOP one nap today because he got so OT. Haven't had to do that in so long. Made me feel really discouraged...

[Fefekabob]

I'm thinking the WU's now are from the increased A times. Because now he wakes up crying. Before, he was kind of babbling and then he would cry after 10 min. And I think it's way harder to settle him back to sleep when he's OT rather than UT. But I guess I should probably keep at this A time since he is 3.5 months now and pretty soon he'll need to be on a 4 hour EASY. Maybe this is just a really hard transition for him. I don't know. Just wishing that we could finally be on a predictable routine. The only predictable thing in our day is that he naps for 35 min on the dot!

[creations]

This transition is a difficult one. Baby's sleep changes around this time and many people have difficulties with short naps around this age (me too, that's when I found the BW forums for us it was 3.5 - 5.5 months old he had unpredictable sleep). If you feel the A time is too long you can reduce it 5 or 10 mins and see how the resettle goes.  Sometimes just a few mins either side of an A time can seem to make a big difference, the level of stimulation can make a difference too.
With W2S LO will often stir or even wake but should be easier to get back to sleep. It doesn't seem to suit everyone though.

[Fefekabob]

I think I have to cut back on A times a bit because we have had a horrible night with 6+ night wakings. I am going to try for 1 hour 40 tops and maybe even do 1 hour 30 before bedtime.

[Fefekabob]

Well I cut back on A times and nothings changed... It's only getting worse! It took 50 min to get him back to sleep for two naps, and 35 min for another!! And the NW still happened! He was up blowing raspberries at midnight on/off with crying for about 50 min! What is going on?!?

Am I going in the wrong direction? Should I be going forward in A times instea of backwards? Do I need to jump to 2 hours already?!? Help!! It's never been this bad and I'm starting to panic. Not to mention, my 2 year old has been starting to wake up from all the crying in the middle of the night. It's disastrous!

[creations]

Don't panic!
But I'm really sorry to hear you are up up in the night

It's very hard to tell if the NWs are from OT or UT with the information and you seemed to think the longer A times were making naps worse, however, blowing raspberries in the night sounds like some UT so I think if it were me I'd go longer on the A time. I've actually always found OT naps easier to deal with, yes there is crying but I generally know with an OT nap I can resettle mine relatively easily where as an UT nap it's hell, real hell.
So, yes I'd try longer A, but do keep in mind so many people struggle with naps at this age, I know it seems a total nightmare when you are going through it but it's going to settle eventually. Honestly, it will. x

[Fefekabob]

All the night wakings happen in the first part of the night. After his NF, he doesn't cry out again until WU. I don't know if that's some sort I clue, this is all just so confusing...

Anyway, this morning I kept him awake for 2 hours. He was actually fine, and fussed for just a few moments before settling to sleep. He woke up at 35 min (as usual), looked around and wiggled around for 10 min with on/off fussing. Really started crying after 10 min, in which I patted him until he calmed, then stopped. He slept for 7 minutes then cried out, so then I continued to pat his back for 5 min AFTER he fell asleep. When I stopped, he wiggled about and opened his eyes and closed them a few times. After about 15 min of moving around with his eyes closed... He remained still and slept 1 hour.

For the second nap, I had him down at 1 hour 50min A tim. (he didnt seem tired, but i just figured he had an interupted nap and might need less A time). It took him a lot longer to settle to sleep. I had to pat his back for a minute after he closed his eyes. He woke up after 35 min again and I repeated the exact same thing as his morning nap. He slept 56 min then.

I should mention that he has been doing absolutely fine waiting 4 hours between feeds since yesterday. It just seems odd that he has dropped a whole bottle so easily. I guess I need to be on a 4H EASY a lot sooner than I thought.

Is it too soon to assume that he should stick to a 4hour routine and be patient during these next few weeks or should I maybe ease up and transition him slowly to 3.5, then 4...

[creations]

All the night wakings happen in the first part of the night. After his NF, he doesn't cry out again until WU. I don't know if that's some sort I clue, this is all just so confusing...

Sounds like OT or could he be teething?  If there's a chance of teething then I'd medicate before BT to see if it helps.  If you are sure it isn't teething then it could be his last A time is either too long or too stimulating.  If you want to detail your WD to BT then maybe I could have a look but things like too many books or too long a bath time, or too many toys in the bath these can over stimulate and be making him too tired for BT so he is unable to fully relax into his sleep in the first part of the night. You might find just moving the routine a little helps a lot, so maybe bath 20 mins earlier or for a shorter time etc.

The naps sound quite good in the scheme of things, I know you're having to help resettle but he is getting a half decent nap by the end of it. tbh I wouldn't reduce his second A time based on what you've said, if his A is already a little short for him then reducing isn't going to help, but use your instinct and observations too.

If he is fine to feed every 4hrs then I would continue with that.  Did he increase his intake in the other bottles?  Just make sure there is an oz or so left in the bottle so you know he is eating as much as he wants.

[Fefekabob]

I'm miserable. Plain and simple. I'm getting really frustrated and I no longer have the patience to deal with this 35 min napping nightmare!

There is a missing piece to this puzzle and I just can't figure it out. I no longer care to spend 30-50 min extending naps... I just can't mentally handle it anymore.

So for the past two days I have given up and just allowed for the 35 min naps to take over our life! Here is our new EASY and I hate it:

WU: 6:30
E: 7:00
A: 2 hours
S: 8:30-9:05 (35 min)
A: 1 hour
S: 10:05-10:35 (30 min)

E: 10:35
A: 1 hour 30 min
S: 12:05-12:40 (35 min)
A: 1 hour 20 min
S: 2:00-2:35 (35 min)

E: 2:35
A: 1 hour 30 min
S: 4:05-4:40 (35 min)

5:15 bath, book
5:35 bottle
6:00 asleep

Now, if only it was that easy... After putting him to bed for the night, he has gotten up and cried anywhere between 6:30pm-12:00am. It doesn't take long to settle him. A quick pat on his side and he will fuss a bit and go to sleep. I wish it was that easy to settle him for naps.

I'm wondering if me patting his bottom (even if its for a few seconds), has become a prop. Because he quiets down immediately after I start patting. And as soon as he quiets down, I stop. Sometimes he cries once I stop, then I pat again and we repeat until he puts himself to sleep without me patting. And for all his naps I put him in his crib drowsy but awake and I sometimes have to pat, stop, pat, stop...until he fusses to sleep finally. I don't think it's a self soothing issue, but maybe I'm wrong.

I can't understand what else could be the problem. I'm going to try 2 hour 15 min A time first thing in the morning tomorrow and see where that takes us. I figure it can't possibly get any worse, so I'm willing to try everything!

[creations]

Oh, sorry to hear you're feeling miserable

I totally understand the frustration and how draining it is to try and extend every nap. Maybe you can focus on one nap at a time so just work on the morning nap? Do you think you have the energy for that?
You've come so far, it has been less than a month since you began ST I think, and although you are patting you also say he is going to sleep on his own, no patting, eventually - this is GREAT! Honestly this is a process of gradually teaching him to have the confidence to sleep alone and gradually weaning the patting - and you are making progress through that process.

Patting is not considered a prop because it is relatively easily weaned. you are doing just the right thing in patting when he needs reassurance and help then reducing and stopping as he falls to sleep or before. I found even with a fully independent sleeper there were times I would pat (adapted version) fully into sleep if he was struggling with something.

I know this feels amazingly hard for you right now, yes there may be a missing piece of the puzzle as you say, and yes it may be a longer first A time, or it could just be down to a very normal developmental phase which makes naps tricky at this age.

I would increase. I know mine had his best naps at 2hr 30 at this age. Remember to increase gradually and that it will take several days for any change to settle down, there could be OT naps initially whilst he adjusts.

The following A times are very short - were these following cues?  I wonder if you can keep them longer despite the short naps?

[Fefekabob]

Creations,

I can't tell you how great it is to have your encouraging words and helpful advice to get me through this. I really appreciate all your help!

Again, you were absolutely right. I made his A time at 2.5 hours and he actually gave me a 1 hour nap both Sunday wnd Monday morning. And then he did a 40min nap, woke up crying, amd was easy to settle for another one hour nap. I know it's not the best, but it's soooo much better than 35 min!! We are heading in the right direction...

And yes, you are right about coming a long way. He really is doing great. I think I was just expecting him to be like his brother... Who after two weeks of ST, just got it and I could put him in his crib fully awake and he would just fuss then fall asleep and give me 2 hour naps right off the bat. (I have to remind myself that every baby is different.

So the reason the following A times were short was because I wanted to squeeze in a nap before his feed so he wouldn't fall asleep on the bottle. But I will keep A times at 2 hours for the short naps and 2.5 for anything over 1 hour. Do you remember the A time you used for your LO's short naps?

I think I just have to be a little more patient. With the improvements I've noticed these past few days, I'm a little more hopeful and motivated to see this through. I'm a little nervous about the next few weeks because I know his sleep is going to regress. He's working really hard on rolling over and he has officially found his fingers and thumb and spends most of his waking hours trying to suck them. I know we are getting close to unswaddling. I wonder how that will transpire...

Anyway, thanks again and ill keep you posted.

[creations]

I'm so glad to see you've had some success with the first nap and resettling the second into a better nap 

I'm just dashing off now to get DS ready for a toddler group but I'll be back later with some more.

You're doing it!  You're doing great!!
 

[creations]

A time at 2.5 hours and he actually gave me a 1 hour nap both Sunday wnd Monday morning

Brilliant! So I would leave it a couple more days and focus on the other naps.  This one though, if the nap doesn't go longer after 2 or 3 more days maybe increase another 5 - 10 mins.  You don't want to over do it too fast but being overly cautious doesn't help either. At worst he gets OT and wakes up screaming at 10 or 20 mins and has to be re-settled.

And then he did a 40min nap, woke up crying, amd was easy to settle for another one hour nap.

This sounds UT.  So he is tired enough to settle for the nap initially but then not tired enough to transition, when he wakes he still feels tired and cries. Depending what A time you did before this I would look to increase again.  Be ready at the 40 mins, maybe pop in a few mins before to see him through that transition so that he doesn't wake up too much if possible.  We need to gauge whether it's the A time or whether it's ST needed here to teach him to stay asleep.

Do you remember the A time you used for your LO's short naps?

Our routine was unconventional. DS had silent reflux and it was around this time I was getting him started on meds plus fighting the 40 mins naps, plus we had an unavoidable appointment twice per week which meant car naps for 40 mins were all I could offer after the first nap of the day. It really wasn't ideal.  The thing at this age is that the A time feels like quite a jump and it increases quite quickly up to 6 months (going to 3hrs or more), the sleepy baby days are over and baby is so much more alert and ready to DO stuff (gaze at you, roll, hold toys) so although no one wants an OT baby you also don't want to be playing catch up for another 2 months with an A time that's too short.

Keep sight of the successes though. And may I also suggest you plan to take a minimum of 30 mins to yourself during the first nap. Go and lay down in a dark room and breath deeply. it can help soooooo much, the laundry and dishes will wait, they really will.  Or get yourself to the back/front door and get some air, look at the tress if you have any, the sky...getting some air and light is so energizing after being stuck in a dark room shush/patting.

Keep going

[Fefekabob]

Thank you for all the great advice. The last one about taking a nap is a little tough given that my 2 year old boy would tear the house apart!! 😜😜

But, I am coordinating the second nap to occur at the same time as DS2. He naps from 1-3 every day so I really try to make the day work in favor of giving me a little alone time to sit on the patio and enjoy the beautiful California weather.

I am truthfully very surprised at how much of an increase in A time he needed. I extended the first one to 2 hour 45min and he has been doing 40-50 min naps and then resettling for another 30 min nap. Then the second A time is about 2 hour 30 min and then he does a 35 min nap followed by some shh/patting to sleep for another 10-20 min. (Because its always so close to his next feed)

I almost think he should do 3 hours in the morning but it just seems so soon! I thought they do 3 hours at 6 months... Not at 4!! But he is definitely very alert and wants to be very much involved in all of big brothers activities. It's so nice having an active toddler around for entertainment! Or else I would not know what to do with him!

Creations, do you think 3 hour is pushing it or should I try it? I just worry that because he needs to feed every 4 hours, that he will only get a one hour nap at best.

[creations]

The last one about taking a nap is a little tough given that my 2 year old boy would tear the house apart!!

Oops! Sorry!
Great that you have worked out a routine to get some Y time when they both nap at the same time though!

3hrs does sound long yes, but, if you feel he needs it (and I agree it kind of looks that way doesn't it) then give it a go. I often think that routines go off track and stay off track when we don't have the courage to do what our LOs need simply because the guidance times don't fit. Worst that happens he gets horribly OT and you get a few rough days whilst you bring his A times back down again.  Is he self settling for all naps now?  Does he ever transition alone?  I must say I wonder about that second nap being so short, 35 could be OT and he isn't getting a decent nap length even after resettling, are you sure this is due to feed times and not OT??

Whether you move to 3hrs or not I think you'll need to be a little creative about fitting feeds in with naps. If necessary bring a feed early so he can have a decent nap length - I know he doesn't really want a feed before 4 hrs but he may be willing to take one just before a nap (then couple mins A to just make a gap there) so he can have a really good sleep.
Do you want me to look at the E and S times to see where things might be shifted?

[Fefekabob]

Haha, just when things couldn't get worse... He had a lot of NW last night. All from getting loose from the swaddle. He had been shifting at nights for a few days now and really tries hard to get his hands out. But last night he was dead set on a mission and there was no consoling him when I reswaddled. He was in hysterics at 11:50am and then again after his 1:30am feed when I swaddled him tight. So for today's nap, I left one arm out. He took a 30 min nap and then was wide awake. His A time was exactly 2.5 hours because he seemed so tired and cranky. I assumed it was from the rough night so I didn't push him to 3 hours. But with a wake up like that (all smiles) I probably should have kept him up longer.

Anyway, so now we are at his second feed of the day and he's falling asleep at the bottle. (1 hour after his nap). I guess I will keep him up another 30 min and try and give this one arm out thing another go.

I know it's going to be a really rough transition out of the swaddle, but he's almost close to rolling over so I just have to keep at it...

[creations]

Sorry no advice on weaning the swaddle. I only swaddled naps until 10 weeks and never at night so I'm no help.

[Fefekabob]

Well, the naps got really bad without the swaddle. I mean like 20 min only three times in the whole day. It was a pretty exhausting weekend. But, interestingly... He did much better at night without the swaddle and every time that he would normally cry out for me, I heard him sucking on his fingers and put himself back to sleep.

So today I decided to try swaddling only for naps and he did a little better. Still took only a 40 min nap in the morning, a 40 min one in the afternoon, but then I shush/patted and extended it another 48min.

I think I have a bit of a ST issue for naps because he doesn't ever go through a nap transition alone. On one hand it's convenient for everyone if I just shh/pat for 5 min so he gets the rest and I get to be with DS1. But on the other hand, I really need to start teaching him how to nap on his own.  I'm thinking maybe after he gets over this "learning to rollover" milestone, I can really buckle down and ST properly. It seems to be one of those milestones that he wants to practice even in his sleep and he is not as relaxed as he could be. And waiting a few more weeks will mean he is also a little bit older and can handle PU/PD. The shh/pat method seems to have become a prop.  I always stop before he is asleep, but he still needs it to get to that sleepy state.

Looking at our whole situation, I guess things could be much worse. But it does depress me a little that my baby can't take long naps on his own. Such a contrast with DS1!

[creations]

I'd generally suggest sticking with your routine until other things (rolling, swaddle change etc) are more settled but yk if you want to try an A increase to see if he will transition there really isn't any harm in that. You know the risk, OT nap and needing to be resettled, it's no worse than getting 40 mins naps because of removing the swaddle.  if it's rough you chalk it down to a bad day and start again the following day.

Honestly ALL babies need comfort before sleep. If you are stopping the shush/pat before he nods off you are doing the right thing.  Even at 3yo my boy gets a cuddle on my knee with little rocking to music for 3 - 6 mins (1 to 2 tracks on a CD) before climbing into bed and snuggling down. He is a totally independent sleeper but even so when he struggles with his sleep I go to him and give him another cuddle or stroke his head, it's quite a regular thing here as he has lots of anxiety dreams related to developmental leaps and catches every cold going.

I can understand the frustration of your LO not transitioning alone yet. have you tried holding off on the W2S to see what happens? he might fuss then self settle? Or no chance??

[Fefekabob]

Thanks for the advice.  Haha, tbh I am so scared of W2S!! It's failed me so many times! I'm sure I'm doing something wrong but I could certainly try it again.

But first I am going to try extending A time to 3 hours.  And I am going to change up his feeding a bit and give less at his usual time and then top off right before the nap.  It would be better for him anyway because of his reflux. I'll see how that goes and let you know.

And I am starting to realize that I shouldn't expect so much of my little baby. He was in the womb only 4 months ago. I can't expect him to know how to sleep exactly how I want him to sleep! He's still learning... He will get there someday. I think my exhaustion sometimes gets the better of me and I complain too much.

Anyway, going to go to sleep now so I'll have some energy for my boys tomorrow. Thanks again for the tips. I'll keep you posted.

[creations]

I think my exhaustion sometimes gets the better of me and I complain too much.

Oh that happens to all of us