One last desperate cry for help

[PeepersMom]

I swear, I just don't get why I can't seem to get this. DS is 19 months old. What is going wrong?  I keep going back to "What am I missing here?"  I have tried all the bw techniques to get a good nap/ bedtime and nothing I do seems to really work. longer A time, shorter A time, tried to extend nap.  Bedtime earlier..  and it is getting worse.  We haven't had a nap longer than 55 min in 2 weeks.  And we are on 1 nap.  He is taking 45min -2 hours to fall asleep at night. 

Here is our schedule:

630-7am wake
12ish nap -  falls asleep in about 5 minutes - 45-55 min wakes up completely crazed and screaming for up to 1 hour even w/cuddles, etc.
630-7 bedtime and falls asleep rarely within 15 min most nights 45 min - 2 hours of craziness before finally passing out from exhaustion.  so asleep usually around 8-830pm

so we get roughly 10-11h night sleep wakes up happy so this is fine with me.  But the nap is out of control he is so tired in the afternoon. I have gotten longer nights out of him occasionally and still with such a short nap he is cranky in the afternoon.  I don't mind a 10-11 hour night if we got a 2 hour nap, but it has been > a month since we had ONE of those. probably 2 months since they were the norm.

I have a nap routine, a bedtime routine and nothing has changed except the times a little bit by 30 min depending on amount of sleep at night or nap.

I have tried to stretch awake time to 6 hours, put down at 5 hours nothing seems to help.  He is tired, for sure.  He begs for his naps by nuzzling me and yelling "up" while pulling at his crib rails.  He is teething, but nothing worse than when he got 3 molars at once.  I give him motrin and/or tylenol before all sleeps.  He does go through periods of horrible night wakings, we haven't had one in a couple weeks, but i see one coming, as he is sooooo tired.

The only thing I can think of is putting him down even earlier for nap, but if I put him down before 630pm for bedtime he is up in the 5 am hour and that doesn't really work.  And with DST coming that will be a joke even with black out shades.

He is such a tired boy right now and it has been going on for probably 3 months total with an occasional week here and there of ok sleep.

Before I just completely loose my mind, are there any ideas out there?  what am I missing?

Meg

[Layla]

Meg, what exactly do you do as part of your routine? Does he watch tv at all before nap or bedtime? Does he rely on anything to fall asleep? What do you do (pd, wiwo or gw). Do you think there is anything medially wrong, other than the teething? You mentioned you give him motrin/tylenol before all naps and bedimte - do you think this is having an opposite effect on him? I googled both and came across this:

TYLENOL
"It is safe to use in children six months old and above. The sedative effects of the antihistamine usually overcome the "revving-up" effects of the decongestant to produce an overall "calming" effect, which will help your child sleep. Occasionally, the antihistamine has the opposite effect, which may lead to some missed sleep but is not dangerous. Uncommon side effects are headache, upset stomach and dizziness. If your child has a history of seizures, high blood pressure, heart disease, thyroid disease or is taking medications for any of these conditions, consult your doctor before taking this medication. If your child has Croup, do not use this medication because of its drying effect".

MOTRIN
Ibuprofen is generally considered very safe to use in infants and children. There are minimal side- effect concerns in a healthy child. It sometimes can cause stomach upset, do not use if your child has stomach ulcers. Ibuprofen also can have a mild effect on blood clotting ability; I usually don't use it if a child has large wounds or bruises (note: Acetaminophen does not have theses two effects). Ibuprofen has a good safety margin, i.e. it takes many times the regular dose to be harmful. If given at the proper doses, it is safe to use "around the clock" for several days.

How long have you been giving him meds for???

Layla

[aisling]

(((((MASSIVE HUGS)))))

Aisling x

[Peek-a-boo]

Have you tried doing  super short cat nap (15-20 min) in the morning 3-4 hours after waking and then doing the big nap a little later.  It sounds like what was going on with my DS (although mine is only 14 months old)--we tried one nap, but they were too short so he was waking overtired and then overtired at bed and taking forever to go to sleep.

This is our current routine:

6:00ish wake

9:50-10:10 nap (in stroller or car en route to errands; he needs this cat nap, but it's hard to get him down in the crib, so I'm shamelessly employing a prop until he's ready to go to just one nap )

1:00-2:30 or 3:00 nap (in crib)

8:00 bed time

I never thought this would work, although the gals on the 2-1 nap thread swear by it.  I finally tried it and it worked.  Again, my DS is older, but your little guys 45 min wake up from nap just sounds like over tired.

Hope something works for you soon. 

[PeepersMom]

thanks for everyone's thoughts

I am almost wondering/hopoing this is just a horrible long phase that we just have to get through.

I have avoided a cat nap and longer late nap b/c it pushes his bedtime back so late - well, that was before.  Now he won't fall asleep anyway so maybe I should reconsider.  Also, I think that he sleeps in late enough in the morning that I don't know how I would squeeze it in. 

The thing with trying to get him to sleep = He doesn't cry so I just leave him.  I know, though that the playing in his crib is him resisting sleep due to being overtired.  It isn't that he is not tired enough.  He is tired when we go to the room, he rubs his eyes, yawns the whole business.  Then boom he is up for 1-2 hours. 

Our nap routine is lunch, quiet play for 10-15 min (waiting to see if he'll poop) then a few books, then naptime.  Again, this is the easy part.  when he wakes I have done wi\wo which only gets him wound up more, I have tried rocking him back to sleep and that worked for a little while and now he won't go back to sleep.  He sometimes actually looks like he is trying to fall back to sleep with covering his eyes w/his lovey, shutting his eyes tightly, etc. for about 10 min  then he is up for good.

Bedtime we do dinner, listen to some music, some quiet play, bath, lotion, TONS of books, jammies.  When I ask him if he is ready for "night night" he is very agreeable.  We do some rocking in his room.  He acts as if he is going to fall asleep every time I rock him.  There have been a few occasions when he has fallen asleep rocking, but for the most part he sings to himself, sucks on his lovey, rubs his eyes, yawns, and keeps his head on my shoulder the whole time.

Then it is party time for up to 2 hours.

I know he is tired, as the afternoons are a mess.  Now with DST he woke at 8 am (7 am to him) so I am not sure what the day will bring. I want to try to move him back to his scheule of bedtime at 7 so I probably will put him down at 1230 for his nap and just see what happens.  That will be 4.5 after wake up.

Thanks again for your thoughts. 

Meg

[**Clare**]

I would imagine hes very over tired but this isnt going to help you when you cant get him to sleep! Sorry 

I had the same problem with my DS, I used to keep his naps short assuming he'd sleep longer at night but he used to wake 5 times a night at 11 months!!  So thats when I joined BW and figured it all out! Since I did PU/PD at 11 months with him he now has a 2 and a half hour nap at 12.30 and sleeps 11 - 12 hours at night. He is now 21 months.  I still have the problem that if for whatever reason he does not have at least 2 hours slep he wakes in the night!! It very bizarre but everytime he goes to bed at night I can tell whether or not hes going to wake or not! Hes never hard to settle, is always asleep within seconds but can wake half an hour later if hes over tired.

Sorry this is probably no help    I would definately work on getting more sleep at nap time and that may alter the bedtime.  Easier said than done I know xxxxx

[yaya]

Hiya, well bet ur surprised to see a reply from someone who has X number of sleep issue herself LOL but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth....
I was totally miffed by DS 's napping too...long story short, DS has milk protein intollerance issues and I introduced cow's milka s a tester in Jan and thats when the 'hell' strated again....so what im saying is r u sure there is nothing medical going on? It really isnt obvious to work on some sutff from my experience but when I look back to T's bad patches I have always seen , in retrospect, it was due to some medical issue.

Tip: DS has gone the waking up screaming from a nap and me not being able to calm him down, what I do is put some sweetner drops on his paci and stick it in his mouth (use calory feree sweetner), this instantly calms him and if I can catch him in time he will usually settle back down.
Personally i would try a short am nap and then a pm nap if he's overtired, or go out in the stroller for a quick am nap and then settle for pm as usual to allow him to catch up on sleep.

HUGS sweetie, I know that feelign of desperation, if theres anythign i can do let me know

[brightside]

He definitely sounds overtired. Have you tried WI/WO? Sounds like he needs to learn to go back to sleep himself both for nap and for waking at 5am. It will take a few days for him to get the hang of it and to catch up on some of his missed sleep but he'll get there in the end.
 
I have this problem with DS because he regulalry gets overtired due to daycare etc. When he wakes in the night or too early from a nap it takes 1.5 hours to get him back to sleep but its well worth it.

I also think the am cat nap would also work but I find that if DS only has 20mins, he is often ready to go back to sleep after just 1.5 hours, 2 max. It does take a bit of experimenting to see the magic time.

Good luck!

[PeepersMom]

Thanks Stacy - you are right, I have given up on a 12 hour night. So you think maybe I can push him to 1230-1 for his nap??  that is 6 hours of awake time.  I think he could do it, but I just am not used to it.  Your schedule sounds like a good solution.  Could you tell PJ about it???  And you know I must be resigned, b/c you know I love my 7 pm bedtime.  ha

 I am happy to say we haven't had too many early wake ups, and if we do get an early wake up it just seems unusal and an outlier... I ignore it as a 'sign' that he is overtired.  Although it DOES seriously screw up the day.

I know that the cat nap works well for a lot of people and I have resisted it in the sense that he isn't an early riser... but there might be a time I use it.   I think first I will try a later nap.  I was thinking maybe an earlier nap might break the cycle.  In the past, however, he has done well to stretch his awake times.  But that was when he was on 2 naps. 

Brightside you work for 1.5 hours to extend a nap?  hum, I definitely give up afer about 30 min. I figure it is getting too late in the day at that point so it isn't worth it.  I bail and do an early bedtime.  that is if he cooperates.

Meg

[PeepersMom]

hum  chocolate.  Always with the good attitude, Stacy.

have one quick ? though.  I just put him down after 4.5 awake time and he was asleep in 5 min.  Do you think this is due to overtired that he can fall asleep so quickly on such little awake time (for him) or is this a sign that 4.5 is what I should be shooting for?  maybe I should wait and see how long he sleeps before I ask this question. I was just expecting that it would take a good while for him to fall asleep due to the weird time change and all.. 

I am really trying to keep the positive thoughts coming.  I know I am providing the right environment for him. I give him everything he needs, that I can think of, to get a good nap/night sleep.  So, as much as I hate it, it is up to him to sleep. 

(can you say control freak?)

Meg

[LeesMom]

Hi Meg,

Not sure if anyone else has experienced this, but when I give DD Tylenol or Motrin before a nap for teething, she almost never sleeps more than 1 hour tops. If I give Motrin at bedtime, she'll usually wake at least an hour earlier in the morning  Maybe this is just a coincidence, but it does seem to happen whether we're dealing with overtiredness or not. Now I only really give medicine if she wakes in the night with tooth problems or if she's really fussy or obviously hurting. Just a thought.

[PeepersMom]

Jenny, that is interesting about the meds.

Well he slept his normal 55 min and woke screaming according to DH.  He only calmed down once put in from of the TV -s omething i don't normally do.

SO I would think that longer awake time might be the trick as 4.5-5.5 isn't working.  I have tried all variations on this time frame.

I guess I will bite the bullet and do it.

In the long run for today waking at 130 for nap isn't too bad due to the time change and what not, but I still prefer a well rested, happy baby.

Meg

[brightside]

Meg: I very rarely have to spend 1.5 hours extending a nap. I only ever do it if he has less than 1 hour and has slept badly at night too so I KNOW he really needs the extra sleep. Anything over an hour and like you I give it about 1/2 hour and then give up. I just wondered if it might be worth giving it a go seeing as your LO seems to be stuck in an overtired cycle.

interesting about the meds 

[PeepersMom]

Cath,

Thanks, I think he is stuck in an overtired cycle for sure.  So if I need to I will attempt to extend his nap a little longer. I usually try to get make up sleep at night but that only works 50% of the time these days.

Meg

[Layla]

Meg, I'm with Jenny on this one. As I mentioned in my pp, meds can have the opposite effect so I would cut them out and see if there is any improvement. ITs worth giving it a shot - try that for 1 week and see if it helps.

Layla

[PeepersMom]

oh yes, he wakes SCREAMING! and takes forever to calm down most days.  Rarely ends when I get him.

I know what you mean about the wi/wo & not being able to do it.  That is what our nights are like. He is awake quietly for 2 hours.  I know that many think, "oh no big deal" if he isnt' crying, but he doesn't just do it once in a while it is just about every single night for 45min to 2 hours.  like Kaleb when he wakes from his nap.  He isn't crying but you know he needs more than 25 minutes, right??

I think I do need to rethink the day vs night thing.  I had been of the mindset screw the nap to get a good night, but in the words of Dr.Phil  "How's that working for ya?"  uhhhhh it's not.

I can do w/o the meds, I just know he is teething.  He even spit up this afternoon something he hasnt done in ages.

Meg

[Ami ~ 3 girls' mom]

Have you tried Teething Tablets for teething pain?  No side effects with homeopathic remedies.   

Does PJ seem very emotional?  Like he feels everything with lots of intensity?  I can give you my story with my oldest and you can pick it apart as you see fit.     When she napped it was never more than 90 minutes and always woke up screaming. 

Now I know she needs to have sorted through her feelings before she falls asleep.  The routine is fine for letting her know it's time to sleep but she needs be completely, emotionally calm -- all is right with the world -- or she will not sleep well.  Otherwise she gets up every sleep cycle obviously needing more sleep but can't quite do it.  We would come home from a shopping trip, eat lunch, and I'd put her down for a nap but because I hadn't spent extra time winding her down from the morning she'd have a short nap.  Or I'd be upset about something and she'd "see" it and not sleep well, like she was worried about me.

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/test_child.htm  This is a quiz by the author of the book The Highly Sensitive Child.  I'd been through everything looking for reasons why a child would over and over not get the sleep she needed and this is what fits her.

Maybe this helps (or maybe not  ) but you are exactly where I was three years ago and I couldn't help but share my experience.

[PeepersMom]

Amore96 - wow very interesting.  I had contemplated running through the day with him at bathtime before bed, but honestly worried that he would end up hyped up. Interesting about naps.  So what did you do exactly?  I guess something like, "didn't we have fun shopping/visiting friends/story time?"  like that before nap?

I kind of think he is sensitive/emotional as he has a very expressive face. I am going to do your quiz right now.


On another note after his mini nap yesterday he fell asleep like a dream at 7 pm and woke at 8am!  hum, now no idea what to do w/nap today as I can't see waiting till 2, but I also am going to assume with that monster night he won't sleep long.  I am thinking maybe 130 so that it doesn't get so late in the day that he is up till 9!

Meg

[Ami ~ 3 girls' mom]

I had contemplated running through the day with him at bathtime before bed, but honestly worried that he would end up hyped up.

Some kids need the help processing their day.  Lots of 2yo lie in bed for an hour at night talking.  Maybe he's gearing up for the language explosion and he doesn't have the vocabulary yet to do a daily rundown himself, so you can get the thoughts out of his head for him.   

Maybe something like "I saw you having a good time this morning with your friends.  We'll do it again next week.  When you get up today we'll do xyz."  Ashlyn is also a kid you do not surprise.  She likes to know what happens next.

[PeepersMom]

thanks, I get it.

Well, PJ was exhausted today at 1 so we did nap early.  5 hours awake time.  he slept 1h10min and I am actually happy with that. i feel like at least I know he isnt' stuck FOREVER in that first sleep cycle.  He actually was a bit nicer waking up with that extra 15 min, too.

I did the test and am not fully sure about his answers.  Some are hard, as he is young.  Interesting about not liking scratchy clothes, etc.  Those don't bother him, but he LOVES soft things. In fact he will ask to wear a fleece sweatshirt every day and hold it to his cheek and say "soft".

He is definitely a kid who gets wound up. I know when he is going to have trouble falling asleep sometimes because we had a particularly fun day and I can understand that.  Other days I haven't a clue why and it drives me nuts.

thanks for the support and ideas.

[JennŠ]

So that's what she is doing with the bedtime chatter!!  It makes sense!    
Just popping in with a hug as I have no brighter ideas.  Unless you want to pop into our birth club?  We locked chat #4 as we decided that's how our kids were sharing illnesses.      We are on #5 now.  Someone may have more ideas there.