1 long and 1 short nap - will it work for 8 mo?

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, my woes with DSs naps are still ongoing and have in fact got harder to fit in with the school run as he nears 8 months.

We were sort of going ok on something that looked like this :

Wu 6:30
Nap 9:30-10
Nap 12:30-2 (extended in ergo after 45 min) and I woke at 2
Nap 4:30/4:45- 5/5:15
Bt. 7:30 (would sleep till 11feed. Then again 3:30ish and 5:30/6 )

But as of the past 2 weeks nights have become awful lots of early nws, very unsettled in the nights lots of thrashing about and angry cries..

Also it's been very hard to get that last nap and he's been falling asleep at night as late as 8:30!

I've tried various routine combinations the past couple of weeks but they either end in ot or ut basically ebt doesn't work. He gets sleepy after his milk but then is bright eyed again. Plus if Im With him at say 6 till 6:30 then I can't watch the other two. And he never settles easily either.

Also lately he's been cranky when I wake him at 2. One day when. I didn't have to do the school run he continues sleeping on the ergo till 3 and then was happier.

Am I reading his A time wrong? What route do you suggest I follow? Ideally I think what might work is a long nap from say 10:30-12:30 then I can do a cn after 3:30 the get away with bt at 7. But I'd need a 7/7:30 wu for that. Also when still so tired at 3 hr A time in the morning..so you can see my problem.

Do I extend that first A time, and by how much? Or keep at 3hrs but then work with the second A time .. But it's getting hard to fit a second decent nap. Will a routine of 1 long and 1 short nap work at this age or is he too young? He can't really get by on.2 long naps unfortunately due to our day. And what's with our nights? Can't figure them out either.

Any help will be much appreciated
Thanks!

[katie80]

Hi hon,
I'd definitely try to go for the routine you've laid out and I'd use the Ergo to help you get there. If there were some form of AP I could use on my DS2, I'd do it in a heartbeat!

He may still look quite tired at 3hr A in the morning, but you're consistently getting a short nap which means he could probably go longer. Have you ever tried to extend that nap? What happens?

I think I'd start by adding A time (15min or so at a time every few days until you get to 3.5hr) and working to extend the morning nap. Even if you're not at the desired wake-up yet, I think your routine can work. If you can get a long first nap, and although you may have to do a longer second A (because of the school run), the CN after should be enough to take the edge off the OT and get you to a decent BT. Or, at least that would be my hope.

It may not be the ideal routine for him and his age, but I'm finding that's a bit impossible to come by with #3.

[shresmummy]

Hi Katie, thanks for jumping on board my post 

So you reckon it's ok to use the ergo and AP? I was wondering if that's part of my problem in that he doesn't know how to nap longer.

With that first nap I'm usually unable to extend it once he's woken from the cot, but sometimes (say we're out) and he starts the nap in the ergo thorn he might nap longer.

Today for instance he did
Wu 6:15
Nap 9:30-10:40 (in ergo for the whole nap cos I was at the shops)
Nap 1ish-2:20 (despite a decent first nap he was whining around 2hrs after and I had to carry him around and he fell asleep  in ergo again)

Bedtime.. Tried ebt at 5:45 he drank his milk and same story didn't sleep..and started playing! Maybe I'm taking him in too early for ebt? Then I had to keep him up while I did stuff for dd and ds1. In the end bedtime was too late and I had to feed him to sleep.

Talk about a day of ap 

If I get a 6:15 wu you think I should try for a 9:45 nap tmro am?

I don't know why he's so cranky during that middle A time..despite a decent first np. He's always been like that and wants another nap quickly.but this evening fir instance he was happy to go till nearly 6:30.. When he started rubbing his eyes like crazy but I was in the middle of bathing the others! So he had to wait for at least 20 mins and I could slowly see it going downhill but couldn't do anything about it. Maybe he prefers a longer A time(not too long like today) before bed?

[katie80]

So you reckon it's ok to use the ergo and AP? I was wondering if that's part of my problem in that he doesn't know how to nap longer.

Well, that may be the case, but if you're trying to stretch the A times and get him used to staying awake longer and taking a full nap, I'd use it. Yes, it's AP and ideally we'd like not to use it, but my experience is that if you can get a good routine working (using AP or not), it's then easier to transition to IS because you know what A times work. My DS1 slept in the swing for both naps from 8-10mo. He got 6 teeth in that span of time and every time I tried PD, it just didn't work. So, I put him in the swing... he slept full naps and was on a good routine. When the teething was over, I did PD to get rid of a couple extra NWs and then started putting him in his crib for naps. He pretty much went right back to IS (I did a fair amount of PD in the MOTN ). So, it was worth it for me, because in the end I knew what he needed and IS was achieved a bit easier. That may not be a standard BW answer, but I'd do it again if it only worked!

If I get a 6:15 wu you think I should try for a 9:45 nap tmro am?

Yes... it looks to me like both naps were on the UT side today.

I don't know why he's so cranky during that middle A time..despite a decent first np. He's always been like that and wants another nap quickly.but this evening fir instance he was happy to go till nearly 6:30.. When he started rubbing his eyes like crazy but I was in the middle of bathing the others! So he had to wait for at least 20 mins and I could slowly see it going downhill but couldn't do anything about it. Maybe he prefers a longer A time(not too long like today) before bed?

That's quite possible... if the middle A time is short, he may need longer afterward.

[shresmummy]

You're right.. Once I've worked out a routine it maybe easier to get the is...especially if the A tine is right.

Today wu 6:20,
Nap 9:40 - 10:55 ( in ergo )
Nap 1:10-2 (here we go again with the whinging and outright screaming and yawning..had to put him down

But the sucky part was he's sick today and that contributed to a third nap 4:50-5:15
Then he also went to bed by 7:35 but has been up every 45 mins crying and coughing with a blocked nose.

I'll just have to wing it and Ap next few days.. seriously if it's not one thing it's another! But I was wondering, if the wu time is constantly 6:30 ish how on earth am I going to get to a nap time of 10:30 am? Just wanted to say thanks again Katie..(btw your new pic is adorable!! is that your ds2?) 

[katie80]

Bummer, sorry he's sick... yes, AP and get him what he needs.

But I was wondering, if the wu time is constantly 6:30 ish how on earth am I going to get to a nap time of 10:30 am? 

Well, if it doesn't move on it's own from lengthening the morning A time, then I guess you'll have to start working on it like when the clocks change to get him to a later wake-up. You still feed him in the night, right? Maybe you can use that to your advantage (I'm all about APOP, can you tell?! ).

Just wanted to say thanks again Katie..(btw your new pic is adorable!! is that your ds2?) 

Thanks! Yes, that's Charlie at 6mo. And, you're welcome... not sure how much help I am, but am happy to be a fellow comrade!

[shresmummy]

Hi Katie, hope you had a good weekend 

Well DS is still not fully back to normal but well enough to try pushing A times slightly I think. Plus with the terrible few night he had last week When he was sick he slept in on Saturday am (on the boob with mummy cuddles since 6 am of course  )

And he woke up at 7:45 am so I decided to start the 3.5 hr A time first thing plan yesterday. Our weekend went like this

Sat (a bit messy but ok in the end)
Wu 7:55
Nap 10:30 - 11:45(in ergo)
Nap 2:15-3 ( was very fussy and fell asleep in ergo while shopping) but woke in 45 mins
Bt took in at 6:35 asleep by 7
Nw had few nws every hour till 10:30 but was to be expected.. Ot?

Sun (was a picture perfect day!)
Wu 7
Nap 10:30 - 12:15 (ergo)
Nap 3:10 - 4:30 (in ergo...I sort of woke him to feed and keep bt).. He has never done 3hrs between naps
Bt took in at 7 ..was fussy/whiny but prob not tired enough..kept flapping about and finally fed and slept at 8:05 but it's now 11 and he's been sleeping thru no nw yet 

Now..I am hooping for a 7 am wu tmro and try to repeat this..but if it's earlier still try to keep the same A times yiu think? So 3.5, 3 and depending on second nap bt around 7 or earlier?

The other thing is being a weekend I could do the second nap at 3:10.. Normally it will be at the earliest 3:45 pm..I wonder how that will affect things. He might get ot 

I Hear you about Apop  I have never apop'd this much with the others.. I am justifying it to myself saying I have to do other things around the house and deal with the other two. But seriously I see no other choice right now. It that or spend the whole day in his room which is clearly not an option 

I'm hoping in a few days this new routine will work and I can try a nap in the cot and see what happens.. It might mess things up though....and then I have yo work out what to do with his short naps and how to plan the day .... Sigh! Maybe I'll ap naps for a week and enjoy things?!

Xxx

[katie80]

Now..I am hooping for a 7 am wu tmro and try to repeat this..but if it's earlier still try to keep the same A times yiu think? So 3.5, 3 and depending on second nap bt around 7 or earlier?

Sounds good to me... how is it going?

The other thing is being a weekend I could do the second nap at 3:10.. Normally it will be at the earliest 3:45 pm..I wonder how that will affect things. He might get ot 

Yeah, he might, but hopefully the second nap (even if it's short) will prevent too much OT at BT.

[shresmummy]

Ugh it's not going so well the wu are still 6:30'and that makes the day just that bit more difficult.. because he's off his face whining/complaining by. 9:45 am and is falling asleep even when I'm trying to keep him up in the ergo. So he slept today:

Wu 6:30
Nap 9:45-10:55 (1h10 mins)

Then he was complaining again by 1:( and has now fallen asleep by 1:25 in ergo.. But now the problem is i will have to leave by 2:30 on the school run, and tonight's swimming for dd too and in essence I predict a yucky evening

I give up.. Getting a predictable routine for him is too complicated! And he's not a very adaptable baby either and I feel so guilty mucking him around all the time

Any ideas? Maybe this long 1st nap short 2 nod nap idea of mine is proving to be harder to pull off than I thought

[katie80]

Oh shoot, I hoped it was going better for you! It really is difficult trying to make a routine work, I know. My DS2 has pretty much only done 2x30min naps for the last month and I don't know why!

I guess I would do all I could to keep him awake til 3.5hr A, because even though he's really whining, etc he's not taking a full nap earlier and he did with the longer A time. Are you able to hold him and walk round at all without having him fall asleep on you?

I just keep telling myself some day (hopefully kinda soon) he'll only need one nap and we'll finally have a routine that works! Until then, lots of (((hugs)))!

[shresmummy]

I guess that's what I have to keep telling myself. Your poor DS, hope he's coping ok with 2 short naps.  If only they were happy with short naps or no naps I'd be fine!

Evening was a mess as I predicted

Slept 1:25-2 then had to stay awake till 6. I tried bt at 5;55 he had a feed, dozed off but then woke after and usual story with ebt,.he was playful and chatty..now I'm feeding yo sleep at 7:30 and he's settling better.

Why do you think ebt doesn't work for me? It worked with the others.. I think he had to test all my limits 

[katie80]

Your poor DS, hope he's coping ok with 2 short naps.  If only they were happy with short naps or no naps I'd be fine!

Exactly! If he was happy and slept a nice, long, uninterrupted night I wouldn't care, but sadly that's not the case.

Why do you think ebt doesn't work for me? It worked with the others.. I think he had to test all my limits 

I don't know... mine always conks out with the BT feed. Maybe you're not trying quite early enough? Can you ever feed at 5:30/40 with the aim of BT 6pm?

[shresmummy]

Hmm I've done that before still doesn't work. I took him in once at 5:35 and he still did the same thing. It's like he has a relaxing feed but never enough to stay asleep. It's almost like he had a brief rest during the feed then is ready again to keep going till normal bt. But funnily enough he has his best nights on such an evening. Last night he slept till 11:30 without waking.

[katie80]

Well, if the nights aren't worse then I'd just go with it! Maybe the feed/rest acts sort of like a CN.

[shresmummy]

Hi Katie hope you had a good weekend just wanted to update...what's been happening the past few days is that even with a 3.5 hrA time in the morning and a carrier nap he's only been napping 35 mins..then he's tired again 2.5 ish hrs later then napping for about 2hrs and then is awake for nearly 4 hrsA time!, only thing though is he's wu is getting earlier (but he's waking happy in the morning and not tired which I'm guessing would be the case with an ot ew right?)
 
So what yesterday and today looked like is:

Wu 6:15 and today 5:50 (
Bf upon waking and breakfast 7:30
Nap 9:45-10:20(ergo)
Bf 10:30 lunch 11:30
Nap 12:45-2:45 (in ergo)
Bf 3 dinner 5
Starts to fuss and wants to be carried around 6:30 p

Yesterday evening what happened was I tried bt at 6:15. He fell asleep at ebt feed as usual then settled till about 7 but then was up!! And took me till 8:15 to get him back down. Had nws 9:45, resettled up again 10:30 fed, then cnt remember rest if the night but he was on my lap feeding at 4 am! But he woke up at 5;50 despite the boob and cuddle.

Today evening I didn't take him for ebt. Instead he fell asleep in ergo atb 6:30 pm, then I took him to bed with others at 7 and transferred him from ergo to boob, fed and then put him backndowb around 7:30, he's been a bit better. Nws at 9:15, settled, then 10:30 up fed and now sleeping still at 11:30

What o you make of all this? I think he's going to have to do one block of 4 hrsA time. Question is which part of the day? And what's with the ew? Maybe the ebt? Cos he's happy till 9:45 am at least. But look at all the aping!

[katie80]

Hmm, I'm not exactly sure what to make of it, TBH. I don't think the EW is because of the EBT, it doesn't seem that he's getting too much daytime sleep. Maybe it's because he uses the EBT as a CN and then doesn't settle for so long.

Do you think part of the trouble settling for EBT and possibly the EW is because he lacks IS skills? It seems like the routine is a good one and works to have the long last A as you said he doesn't really get fussy til 6:30, which is about 4hr. Maybe it's worth trying to get him into the crib over the next week or so. What do you think?

Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow morning (or I guess it's probably morning for you now!), as you had a 'normal' BT last night...

[shresmummy]

I'm sure he isn't that great with IS  but I'm wondering whether that's the reason for the ew though because he's being fed anyway at that time. But for him to stop feeding and start pulling my hair and chatting signals to me he wants to get up.

Well this morning he woke only ar 6:40 am. After a normal bt..So what do you think? But he's tired by 9:45 a and slept till 10:15 again. Seems like he has set that as a nap time. But he wasn't tired enough at 12:45 I think but i thought I'd try anyway ...ended up with 1.5 hr and he was up by 2:15

Now in trying ebt in the cot at 5:45.. Let's see. I really have to go the long am nap but with so many appts and school commitments at this time of year I have to be out in the am for a bit he ends up falling asleep in ergo 

[shresmummy]

Ok..so the ebt I talked about trying in my pp backfired big time I took him in at 5;50 pm, after 2:15 wu from the second nap. He fed, sleepy, was calm but then suddenly eyes pop open  at 6:10 and refused to resettle.. Was happy!! Grrrr it's so frustrating! Plus it's so hard to leave the other two unsupervised downstairs alone bcos DH hadn't come home yet rom work. At 6:15 after I'd given up and brought him back down , came to the lounge room to find a wreck of toys everywhere and ds1 standing on the table! Eeeps!

Ebt isn't working either yikes what are my options really (  now I took him back up at 7:15 and he's settling better. Is his body not accepting or wired for ebt? Am I trying too early?

[katie80]

Maybe you just need to do a set BT of 6:30/45ish, since he never goes for EBT? Could make for a few early NWs, but those are usually easy to settle. (((Hugs))) for what you found when you went downstairs... that happens here too and I know it's frustrating. I typically give my big kids food and put on a show for them when I have to do BT for C. Not really ideal, but usually keeps them entertained for awhile.

[shresmummy]

Hi Katie, yes that's what I'm going to try.. Ebt is not working for some reason. I have given it a good go but what can you do...I'm trying a set nap time of 10 am at least now with the aim of moving to 10:30. Even if his day sleeps not optimal I'd rather he have that 4hr block first thing than last thing ( which is what is happening now) What do you think?

Slowly working to that. Today we did
Wu 6:20
Nap 10-11:25
Nap 2:45—3:30 (cos DH picked up kids..)
Bt 6:40 with other two kids.. = no mess downstairs for once.

But the next thing is to get that long first nap in the cot. I'm still ergoing it

[katie80]

I think that day looks pretty good! And, if that's what works best for your family then it's likely best to keep pushing for it.  Hope the night went well too.  See if you can't get the routine down for a week or so and then be brave and try the cot.  I'll cross my fingers for you, hon!

[shresmummy]

Thanks Katie I'll update you in a week.. The early night was actually better too! I'm hopeful xxx

[katie80]