9 months old - 30 minute naps and more

[nadia_sn]

Hi there!

I am hoping for some help with my 9 months old son and his naps as they have never been very good and the last few weeks even worsened.

I was wondering if it could be a routine issue, maybe a change is needed. I realize there are lots of other issues with my situation but at this point of time my main concern is the length of the naps.

Here's some background:
- almost all the time for naps he'd sleep for 30 minutes and then wake. (Used to be 45 mins but not anymore.) Then if it's the AM nap I am usually able to send him back to sleep but if it is the PM nap, most of the time I can't (at least in the last few weeks.)
- he's been very gasy since birth and still is, to the point that it still disturbs his sleep or falling asleep sometimes
- he's also very needy and restless, a Touchy baby with a pinch of Spirited. From day one he started crying the moment he sensed I am putting him down out of my arms. That in combination with his gasiness made me rock him to sleep, which is what I still do. (As I said lots of issues in here but I still resist the idea of PUPD or GW, besides gasiness is still a problem + teething now.) Now that he could crawl and stand up, he wouldn't stop for a second. Put in his bed almost asleep, he'd roll immediately and pull up. Then, play, go down, then pull up again and it could go on for an hour even though he hardly stands or moves in the end. Eventually he'd start crying. When rocked, he often is off to dreamland in 7-8 minutes.
- nighttime sleep might be anything from no wakings until the morning, 1 or 2 wakings - this is the most common, I usually have to rock for one of them, to many wakings a night - this is rare but in the last 3 days it happened twice.
- to make it all more fun he now has separation anxiety


Here's our routine on a typical day:


6:30~7:00 Wake up and nurse (nursing is less and less these days);
8:30 breakfast (solids)
9:30~10:00 (about 3 hrs/3 hrs 15 mins from waking) AM nap - it's usually 1hr 15mins. Sometimes 30 mins if he wakes and I can't resend to sleep, or 2 hours on rare occasions.
12:30 lunch (solids)
Anything between 14:30 and 16:30.. PM nap. Sometimes about 3 hrs 15 mins, sometimes 4 hrs or even more after waking from the AM nap. Used to be 1 hr 15 mins but recently I can't resend him back to sleep so 30 mins most of the days.
16:30~17:30 - dinner (solids)
18:30 bath and pre-bed routine
19:15 nurse (less and less these days)
19:30~20:00 BT (depends on when he'd fall asleep as sometimes it's very hard to settle even being rocked).

Any advise would be highly appreciated. Thank you very much!

[Martini~]

Hello Honey and welcome to BW!
Firstly sorry that your post was missed and I hope that we will be able to help slightly still.

So, at 9mo there are couple of points which make a difference:
1. Routine
- at that age some (some from the begining) would aim for one short and one long nap so that maybe the reason why you cannot get two longer naps from your son
2. UT/OT
- both can result in him being restless when settling and in nap length
3. Prop issue
- at that age rocking to sleep or putting to sleep when drowsy means not an independent sleeper

To solve the problem I would try to tackle all 3 points at once. So:
7am WU
10:30 Nap 1 after 3.5h for 1.5h
12 end of a nap
3:30 Nap 2 after 3.5h for 1.5h
5 wake up from a nap
8  BT
A time would be 3-3.5h and day of 13h, but you can go with a shorter day if naps are much shorter.

I would definitely work on independent sleep skills as no good routine will help if he cannot settle when awake.
If he is restless when settling I would go for PU/PD or rather on PD for him at this age. However if you decide on it you have to make commitment that will not back up when he is restless. If you do Pu/PD and than rock him he understand that if he "survive" PuPd, he will get what he wants. Moreover you will have to be consitant and use the same method at any nap, waking from a nap after shorter than 1h, BT or NW. I also would bother to resettle from a nap if it was 1h at least or if it takes more than 15-20min.
The good news is that it shouldn't take long when he gets the idea.

With slightly shorter A and after sleep training he naps should lengthen. If not, further A times increase may be needed. However we have to tackle this independent sleep case as without it, you never now if that's not the reason for short naps.

[nadia_sn]

Thanks a lot for the advise Marti!
Until I got your reply I read some topics on the forum so tried a little change in his A times and was even more careful with his tiredness signs, and for 2 days I got:

Wake up at 6:30~7:00
A for 3hrs
S - Nap 1 for 1:00 the 1st day and 1:30 for the 2nd day
A for 3.5 hrs
S - Nap 2 for 1:15 the 1st day and 1:30 for the 2nd day
A
BT - 19:30 the 1st day, 20:00 the 2nd day

On some of the occasions I had to resend to sleep but at least I was able to. I started getting hopeful and today it's totally different. He didn't sleep well during the night due to being too gasy and I ended up rocking him on and off for 2 hours in the middle of the night as he was squirming and crying... So in the morning he woke up about 6:30, nap 1 9:30 - 10:30 (didn't wake after 30 mins but am naps are better generally), A 10:30 - 13:30, and he is currently sleeping (13:30 - ) as he was clearly tired. I will have to either allow nap 3 in the late afternoon for 30 mins or do early BT as he won't make it otherwise.....  Do you think I should have still waited for 3.5 hrs before both naps today? I will try that for a few days if tomorrow is not better.

On the problem with not being independent sleeper, I agree with you and realize at some point I'd have to use one of those techniques to teach him. However at the moment I just can't do that with him being so gasy. I see he's clearly in pain so I can't do PUPD to him at such times and I don't want to start it just to give up in the middle... When he's not in pain I do try putting him in bed earlier, sometimes he'd even go to sleep in the cot from fully awake (at least used to before he learnt to pull up!) but when he's in pain or too restless, which is most of the time, I rock him. I understand this is a very probably the most important factor but until I can work on it I am just trying anything else.. I'll see for ideas on the PUPD forum but if you have an opinion, I'd love to hear it.

Thank you so much!

[nadia_sn]

Hi Marti,

Wanted to report on some small progress with the naps. I did push the am A time to 3.5 hrs, even a bit more and it seems to have an effect to the am nap, which is now about 1:25 (1:40 on one of the days), before it was 1:10. Then the pm A time is between 3:30 and 4 hrs, I watch for tiredness signs. I am also able to resend to sleep for the pm nap, which wasn't so before, so there's a progress there too. Unfortunately the pm nap falls on one of his "passing gas drama sessions" and it does not last long. It's obvious he wants to sleep more but he's squirming and crying all the time, not able to relax. On one of the days I put him to sleep for the pm nap earlier as he woke up early (but the A time was again 3.5 hrs) and it actually lasted 1.5 hrs!

So the routine now looks like this:
W & E: 6:30~7:00, milk
A: 3.5 hrs with breakfast at 8:30~9:00 (cereal & fruits)
S: 10:30 - 11:45~12:00
A: 3.5 to 4 hrs with lunch at 12:30~13:00 (veggies and meat or yolk)
S: still quite floating depending on wake up time and the length of the am nap but he's down some time between 15:00 and 15:45. The length as already explained varies but let's say about 45 mins, which is not enough, I can see it but with the gas story I can't do much.
A: about 4 hrs, including snack at 17:00 (cereal & fruits), bath at about 18:45 and milk before bed.
BT: 19:30~20:00

I think I will have to move BT a bit earlier though as it seems he's a bit OT by the time I put him in bed. I was wondering what time would you suggest if he slept 15:00-15:45 in the afternoon?

His nights are not brilliant either but again some of it due to another gas session he usually has 24:00~2:00 and not being an independent sleeper too. Then in the morning he wakes up anything between 6:20 and 7:20 and when it's more 6:20-ish, I think he has gas bothering him again and it maybe coincides with a period when he sleeps lighter and because he's not an independent sleeper.....

So I thought giving W2S a try at about 5:30? Does it make sense or do you think it's not appropriate in thi situation?

I know, I know - teaching independent sleep will most probably improve things the most but as explained I won't start that until I know I can see it through and not give up in the middle. I do try to let him fall asleep on his own though. I start the nap/BT routine and then rock and walk him shortly, then put him in his cot awake, lie on the bed next to his cot and pretend I am sleeping. He'd go around the cot and do his kind of things and get sleepier and sleepier and eventually (a) fall asleep - that's usually the am nap but yesterday I had success with the pm one as well (b) get agitated, cry and squirm - that's the pm nap and BT so far. He almost does it for BT but something bothers him I think, and maybe he's a bit OT too, so when he's jsut about to fall asleep something happens.. In those cases I try to put him down a few times but if he protests loader I just rock him.

So, what do you think? What time would be appropriate for an earlier BT and should I try W2S or no point in doing that for the earlier wake up?

Thanks!

[Martini~]

Oh so sorry for not posting before.

That's great you have first results! I will try to post in the late evening after putting DS to sleep with some comments ok? There is no DH here today so everything to be done alone:).

[nadia_sn]

No worries, my DH is away for 4-5 months at a time so I know what it is!

Today the pm nap was again very short so I moved bath and everything 30 mins earlier. I think it made a difference because even though he couldn't go to sleep in the cot again, it was much easier and he was calmer. Because he went to sleep quicker, BT is 45 mins earlier at 19:15, not 30. It's yet to see what the night will be like.

I can't understand what happens when he's in the cot and seems like already drifting to sleep when suddenly he'd start moving about again and becomes more and more energetic, and crying (does not sound like a mantra cry).

[Martini~]

Ok Honey, some comments:

1. At that age my son never did 1,5h pm nap except from some rare occasions. It meant that I had to deal with a 45min nap. What worked for me was moving morning nap as late as possible but you are there with your A times I think. Secondly I would set the time for a second nap to be at 3pm. At that age following sleepy cues can be misleading and for pm nap at that age it sometimes doesn't matter what time you put, they will just sleep short:).
2. With a 45min second nap I would aim at BT 7/7:30max.
3. Why you think he has some gas problem? Usually children at that age are not colic anymore. They can be slightly fussy at certain part of th day but it just works like that:). I would say gas/tummy problems are usually over after first 4months except from reflux and very sensitive kids. What are the symptoms? He sleeps well at naps and does long stretches at night so it doesn't suggest uncontrolled reflux.
4. At that age Honey it's not so simple with independent sleep. You in the room even can become a prop and the reason he starts to cry when he wakes at night. So I will not push you to anything, it's totally your decision but I believe sleep training would help both of you to get a better sleep. For your info my son goes to bed at 7pm and also wakes after 6am but I don't know when as he is quiet. He sees that's its still dark so he lies there and doze on and off until 7am until I come. I am sure he wouldn't do it if not an independent sleeper.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask!

[nadia_sn]

Hey Marti,
Thanks again for your thoughts!

Since my last post I've been sticking to A times of 3:30 hrs and basically I still get an am nap of 1:10 - 1:30 hrs and then a pm nap of 0:35 hrs. That's all I can get in the afternoon. It's funny though as it used to be 30 mins and since I extended A times it's 35 mins.
With such short naps I keep BT at or before 7:30 pm. Wake up time varies a lot between 6 am and 7:15 am...
Do you think I should try extending the A times more (he does seem quite tired when I put him in bed) or maybe just accept that probably this is the amount of sleep my son needs?

About the gas problem, to cut the long story short I had him examined with ultrasound at 8.5 months and the doctor confirmed what I knew all along - lots of gas that makes him very uncomfortable. You can imagine I've already tried every kind of drops, sachets, massages, etc. but I guess I'll just have to wait for him to grow out of it.

In the meantime I continue with the attempts to teach my son to go to sleep out of my arms at least, if not "prop-free". So far so good. I haven't done any walking and rocking in 5 days (I hope I won't spoil it now by saying that) so even if me being in the room is a prop now (besides the paci...!), it's still better than what it was. I also think he started putting himself to sleep on occasions when he would have needed me before. I will be trying to gradually move away from the cot now, though there isn't much space in our bedroom, not even for a chair after having the changing table and the cot in there. I hope I will be able to move my son in a separate room this summer.

So if you have any further thoughts on A and S times and anything else, please let me know. If not, I think I'll continue with the current arrangement and see what happens.

[Martini~]

I would push slightly the first A if you can so he gets a good nap of 1:30 each day. It also should make your A till BT shorter after a short nap. That's my only thought:).

Regarding sleep training, great:)))!

[nadia_sn]

Yeah, after posting last night I read some more on the forum and was wondering the same about am A time so I decided I'll try pushing it some more. In result this morning I put S to bed after 3.5 hrs A time to allow 10-15 mins for going to sleep as that's what he usually needs. He was down by the 4th minute! So I guess we start with extending the A time tomorrow... 

[nadia_sn]

So I brought both am and pm A times to 4 hours and DS did not resist at all so obviously it was high time I did it. Am nap is still 1:15 or even less but the pm nap improved and he makes it past the 30- and 35-minute marks. The length of the pm nap is different depending on the am one's length but at least 45 mins.

Ideally, EASY now is as per below but in reality I haven't had such a perfect day yet.. Either wake time was earlier/later or the naps' length was not as expected.. However total amount of sleep is more now and he naps better so I am happy.

W at 6:30
A for 4 hrs, 6:30 - 10:30
S for 1:15, 10:30 - 11:45
A for 4 hrs, 11:45 - 15:45
S for 45 mins, 15:45 - 16:30
BT at 19:30

It looks though like A times will be even longer quite soon and I am wondering how I'd fit it all in 12 - 13 hr day.. I guess I'll have to shorten the pm nap gradually.

[Martini~]

When there will a time to increase A times, I would suggest to work on morning A so he gets at least one longer nap. I wouldn't push to much on second A, until he doesn't resist this nap. It may shorten to 30min once again when he will be ready but with a shorter nap here you will be able to achieve the same BT. I would make sure his BT is not later than 7:30 with 6:30 WU as 13h+ day will be for sure tiring for him.

At that age I was doing a routine like that:
- 7am WU (or earlier, but he waited in his crib)
- Nap at 11:15 than 11:30, than 11:45; for 1:30, I capped if he was going post 1:30
- Nap 2 at 4pm (I couldn't do it earlier as I was doing a pick up from the nursery 15:45 and putting him down later resulted in no nap...)
BT at 7pm no matter what
My point is that I kept the afternoon nap at the same time for a long time (3mo or so), but was slightly moving morning one to make sure he always gets at least 1:30 there. I was putting him down at 4pm and always capped at 4:30. Sometimes he went to sleep easily and slept 30min, sometimes he fought a nap and finally slept maybe 10-15min. But it was fine for us - a way of self-regulation for him.

When we went to a nap at 11:45 till 13:15 he started to refuse a catnap at 4pm here and there and that's how we started 1 nap days. I pushed a nap till 12 and keep it like that and he usually sleeps 1:30-1:45 here and is fine until BT at 7pm. In transition period, he could do one day on 1:30 nap and refuse an afternoon one and the next day he did 1:45 and still took 20min catnap as he needed it. I tried not to stress and set BT at 7pm, no matter what. I know some people do EBT, we never did as I am too afraid that it will result in EMW:).

[nadia_sn]

Grrr, I am at a loss with the pm nap again! I can't seem to find the right time to put him to bed..
His routine right now:

W - 6:10..
A - 4 hrs 15 mins
S - 10:25 - 11:45 (1 hr 20 mins nap)
A - 4 hrs 45 mins of which 35 mins trying to get him to sleep
I guess this is what I can't sort - initially when I waited 4 hrs he seemed overtired so started putting him after about 3:30/3:45. It was fine for a couple of days and then he started resisting the nap. I'd put him in bed and he'd play, walk around and do all kind of stuff for 45 mins when he'd finally get vocal so I take him and rock him willingly just so he'd finally go to sleep. And then he sleeps for 35 mins. I extended the A time again but still no joy - he was up for 4:15 today and it still took me 35 mins more and rocking to get him to sleep..
S - 16:30 - 17:05 or even a bit later (35 mins)
BT - 19:30

I thought I should extend the morning A time more but even now he seems very tired before the am nap and is asleep in sometimes 4 minutes so I am not sure if I should really push here. On the other hand he seems capable of a much longer A time in the afternoon, which means a really late pm nap and I am worried it will start interfering with BT, which is late enough having in mind the WU time.

Please share some wisdom!