Chronic Catnapper - is it because we nurse to sleep?

[newmamajo]

Hello all, I'm a little apprehensive about asking for help because I personally have no problem with our nursing to sleep/cosleeping arrangement, and it was the only thing that worked for our DD1 (grumpy/textbook). BUT DD2 (15 wks) is a big mess right now, and since she's a textbook baby, I'm wondering if I've created a nursing prop, and where to even start with helping her sleep. She generally wakes up around 7 or 7:30. I've done some experimenting A times and she seems to end up asleep between 1.20 and 1.40. But no matter when she falls asleep, she's awake 30 mins later like clockwork for every nap. So, after having a super tired baby for a few days, I got into the habit of nursing her back to sleep after the 30 min mark. This usually takes about 15 mins and then she'll sleep anywhere from 30 mins to another hour. This results in a day that look like 1.20 A, 20 mins nursing down, 30 min S, 15 mins nursing down, 30m - 1 hr S, 1.20 A... and as the day goes on like this if she can't nurse back down after the 30 min mark she ends up only staying awake for about an hour for each A time and is SUPER grumpy, won't let me put her down. My poor two year old is getting no love lately! and super sick of me running back and forth to tend to the baby. And on top of this her night sleep has changed from waking 2 to 3 times to feed, to nursing pretty much all night and waking every 1 to 2 hours and fussing until she's fed, with an EW at 5am. So it doesn't take a genius to see that we most definitely have a bit of a nursing prop problem...

I guess my main question is how do I begin to fix this??

I've attempted shh/pat a bit, but it only escalates until I pick her up where she passes out.

Am I way off with A times? She's a very textbook baby, and from a very young age had been doing long stretches of sleep for naps and only waking to eat at night so I feel like I messed her up...

I'm confused about all of the NWs to nurse, I had thought maybe she's not getting enough during the day, but she nurses before and after each nap for about 15 mins each feed. That's a lot of daytime calories isn't it?

Would love some of your thoughts!!

[newkidontheblock]

Hello and welcome to BW:)
Please don't be apprehensive about asking for help. The crux of the matter is that Tracy emphasised following your baby's cues, doing what suits your family & simply being consistent in your approach, whatever it may be. I do agree with you that a feed to sleep association seems to have developed. So firstly, I have to ask whether you are fully committed to overcoming this prop? Your baby might protest the change & there will be tears, and it is pointless if at the end of the day you go back to it. As Tracy says, "Start as you mean to go." If you are, then I'm here to help you come up with a plan of action

That being said, 3-4 months is prime time for sleep shenanigans. There is growth spurt & a looong & difficult wonder week. 30 to 40 minutes naps are very common at this time. It definitely helps to encourage good sleep habits with the right A time, non- over stimulating play, a good wind down & a comfortable sleep environment. Sometimes nothing you do will lengthen the naps properly but don't lose heart. It gets better!
short naps at 3-4 months? Take it easy, it will get better!
short naps - remember to consider overstimulation!
Short naps - why does my baby wake after 20 minutes?
How Tracy Helped Josie and her Family Get Past 45-Min. Naps!

The first step towards fostering good sleep is to observe your LO and keep a record of his day. At 3 months, Tracy suggests a 3 hr EASY with an A time of 1.5 hours and 3 naps + a short catnap. It also helps to keep a fixed wake up time and bedtime while getting your routine in place. My LO could not manage 1.5 hours in the morning and we kept it to 1 hour but you should work on what suits your LO. Here are some links to get you started

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!
What are A times and how do they fit into the EASY routine?
What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)
Shush-pat - How to
Teaching Sleep- Tips from the boards
There is a lot more information in the sleep FAQs. You could browse through that and I could help with any clarifications.

Am I way off with A times? She's a very textbook baby, and from a very young age had been doing long stretches of sleep for naps and only waking to eat at night so I feel like I messed her up...

It is possible that you need to experiment to find the right A but I think it is likelier that so far you'll have been in the 'fourth trimester' and she is now fully waking up. That is what happened with my LO. I found BW when I was going through a similar experience. LO would always fall asleep nursing, I would then PD in crib and she would sleep for 2/3 hours. If she ever woke when PD, I would re-nurse & get her to sleep. Then one day it just stopped working. And what followed was a week when I simply could not get a nap out of her. That was when I realised that I had no tools.. no techniques..I just had no idea how to get her to sleep without nursing. Luckily I stumbled upon BW and we were able to get back on track. Hopefully this forum will help you as much as it helped me:)

I'm confused about all of the NWs to nurse, I had thought maybe she's not getting enough during the day, but she nurses before and after each nap for about 15 mins each feed. That's a lot of daytime calories isn't it?

Actually you don't know how much she is actually eating each time and how much is comfort nursing. She seems to eat very often in the day and I doubt that she is hungry at all those times - so probably just having a little to take the edge off. By not feeding to sleep & spacing feeds, she should start eating more during the day & waking less at night. You could even try a dreamfeed between 10 & 11. This helped eliminate our night wakings.

Let me know how it goes:)

[newmamajo]

ah yes, the impending "sleep shenanigans"....

I do want to make some changes, but I want to do it in the kindest way possible, since she is teething, and wonder weeking, and due for a lovely growth spurt/sleep regression ALL AT ONCE lol

which is why I reached out to you ladies. I came here for help with my first DD (who ended up being refluxy so not everything worked well for her), but I was given some excellent advice in terms of helping her with a routine. We definitely have a routine going right now, but not one I'm really thrilled about.

What do you think is priority if I'm trying to make a small adjustment that will lead us in the right direction? Should I start trying to stretch her E times?? I feel like that will result in outright mutiny, since she's been a BF on demand baby. Is there a way to do it gradually?

Or should I start with cutting back how long with nurse before bed? and btw that waking? like Pantley Removal style... she will every so often take a paci, but only if I'm holding her. And she has sucked it to sleep in the past. I can't put it back in her mouth in her crib or she freaks.

I just really need a game plan or I know nothing is going to change. I'd like to start making small changes as soon as possible, but I don't want to set us up for failure either with all of the changes shes going through right now. And I have a two year old at home so it's really hard to be spending a ton of time with the baby during naps, since she's unsupervised at those times. But if I wait til after this wonder week my fear is that it'll be harder to break this habit...

we do have a nap/bt routine: diaper change, aussie swaddle (just reintroduced bc the startle reflux seemed like a problem overnight), lullaby while walking upstairs with white noise until really sleepy, nurse to sleep.

How did you go about this with your little one?

I so appreciate your reply!

[newmamajo]

Also would you suggest I just start getting her up at the 30 min mark or try and get her back to sleep without nursing?? I just don't even know where to start with the two year old needing me too. It's like I either keep up the nursing to sleep habit or have a grumpy needy baby all day...

[newkidontheblock]

Okay, with mine, I first read through one of the BW books & then went through all the FAQs here, so that I was armed with information. Then I actually spent a few days observing LO, and I realised that my response to any situation was to nurse her. I never really *listened* to what she was saying as I had the perfect fits-all solution. You're already ahead of the game since you how about A times and other such. I was clueless:p

I think the way to begin is to just begin. I kept a daily log, which helped me to be consistent & figure out stuff. Work on a good wind down routine for naps & a bed time routine. Once they learn these sleep associations, it gets much easier. Also, keep things very low key during A times. It was a surprise to see how easily she got over stimulated.
At 3 months, she needed 3 naps + a CN. I had a fixed WU time & BT and that worked wonders as no matter how terrible naps were, she would sleep just fine.

What do you think is priority if I'm trying to make a small adjustment that will lead us in the right direction? Should I start trying to stretch her E times?? I feel like that will result in outright mutiny, since she's been a BF on demand baby. Is there a way to do it gradually?

I don't think you need to stretch E, just avoid nursing to sleep. This shouldn't be a problem as you would probably nurse on wake up in the morning & from all naps. My DD too is ebf on demand. I always prioritized nursing. It was more important to me to build & sustain my supply & focus on her weight gain as her birth weight was quite low. I simply made it a point to separate the E & the A with a simple act like changing her diaper/looking out of the window/song etc. In time, she herself stayed up and we incorporated the wind down routine outlined by Tracy. Save nursing to sleep as a secret weapon to use in desperate situations:p Once you get a good wind down in place and help her to sleep using pat/shush etc, I do think her naps will automatically lengthen as she will not longer be dependent on nursing to transition through the sleep cycles, as she is now. Our nap time routine has now transitioned to walking around for a bit, going into room, swaddle, song, PD, turn on music box.

I would advise the same for your nights. Set a bedtime & stick to it. Get a good bed time routine in place. We do bath/massage, nurse, song & bed. At that age I would hold her till drowsy patting her (she hated shush) and then PD. You could keep a hand on her for a while too. At 4 months, DD started pushing away from me as I held her and so I put her right down, and since then she goes down awake. So they gradually build on their sleep skills. I do not think you need to worry about how long you nurse her for. For the first 4 months, DD took AGES to nurse - always 30-40 minutes, sometimes more!

But if I wait til after this wonder week my fear is that it'll be harder to break this habit...

As I said, just start. Everything won't automatically fall into place but it is a start, at least. I *started* 3 times before I got into the swing of things.

{hugs} It can't be easy with 2 of them! Here are some links which might help
Introducing EASY to a 2nd child
Ideas for how to sleep train and deal with naps with #2
How can I sleep-train a second baby when I have a toddler running around?

Also would you suggest I just start getting her up at the 30 min mark or try and get her back to sleep without nursing??

I would say try to resettle her using pat/shush or anything other than nursing. If it isn't working, get on with your day. You would have to reduce the A time before the next nap by 15 or so minutes. So your day might look like EASAEAS.

I hope I haven't missed out any questions