Dreamfeeding questions

[LittleLegs]

Hi

Finley is 12 weeks old and has been having dreamfeeds since 5/6 weeks, the same time he started sleeping 7pm- 7am.  Over the last few weeks the dreamfeeds are getting more challenging by way of him sometimes opening his eyes, kicking around and turning his head not allowing you to put the bottle in.  He does this for a few minutes and then once he bottles in and he starts drinking it's like the dreamfeeds used to be.

Has anyone else had this problem and does it get worse?  It's manageable at the moment but I'm worried it's going to get worse and it will no longer be a dreamfeed but just a normal feed.  We are still swaddling him at night at the moment as it makes it easier to get him in and out of his cot to dreamfeed, if we don't I think his arms will be flailing all over and will definitely wake him up.

I'd like to not have to do the dreamfeed but I think I'll have to do this until I wean him, is that right?

[aisling]

Welcome to the site, I'll move this over to Bottle Feeding forum for you ok?

HUGS

[Lolly]

Are you doing the DF at the same time every night? If you are you could try doing it 15-20 mins earlier or later to catch him in a different part of his sleep cycle. Some babies don't take well to a DF, neither of my two did so we dropped it pretty early after trying for a few weeks and just let them wake when they were hungry. In fact, for us, if they did take a decent DF they woke more often after than if we just let them wake!

It's up to you really, none of BW is set in stone, if you don't feel it's working then stop it for a few days and see what happens. You can always go back to it it not doing it makes things worse.

HTH and welcome to BW!

Laura

[LittleLegs]

Hi Lolly.  Thank you.  We were doing the DF at the same time every night but have since tried your suggestion of doing it 15 minutes earlier and/or later and he was still the same.  Last night was a big turning point, for the worst, he didn't just wriggle and fight it for a few minutes he persevered with it and wouldn't take any of it.  Instead of waking him up (in fact he almost woke himself up).  So we put him back in his cot and did without the DF!  He woke up at 3 and he was fussing and grunting in is cot.  I didn't want to rush in too soon so I left him for 15 minutes but he was still fussing and grunting so I prepared a 4oz bottle thinking that would see him through until his usual 7:00.  By the time I got back upstairs he was asleep!  He then woke at 6:10 so I put his morning tunes on and let him play in his cot and fed him at 7 (again he wasn't crying but was fussing and making loud noises).

The problem of late has been getting him to finish any of his bottles off so he's not being tanked up during the day.  He wriggles half way through the bottle and fights anymore of the bottle.  If I persevere (feel like I'm forcefeeding) he'll start drinking again and leave 1 to 2 oz but over the 4 daytime feeds and with the non-existent dreamfeed this adds up and he is a heavy baby (at 12 weeks was 15lb 6oz and is now 13 weeks).

My mum suggested giving him some rusk with his teatime/bedtime bottle but the HV advised not to but her concern is getting him fed and not the routine (we have such a fabulous routine since he was 6 weeks old and I don't want to ruin it).  She suggested feeding him at more regular intervals in the day but I don't want him to turn into a snacker.  I usually give him the Aptamil First so tonight I have tried the Aptamil for hungry babies for bedtime only to see if that gets him through but I don't really know what to do.

If he wakes tonight and cries I'll assume he's hungry and feed him a few oz's but I don't know whether to give rusks before bed (he's 13 weeks plus 5), try the dreamfeed again or something else?

[LittleLegs]

To add his feeding schedule:

7:10 wakes up

7:30 7oz
11:00 / 11:30 6oz
3:00 / 3:30 6oz
6:30 7oz (and put to bed)
10:30 ish 4oz Dreamfeed

Total 30oz

With the dreamfeed absent and an oz or more off each feed he's only having 20 plus oz.  I have now increased all of his daytime bottles to 7oz to see if he takes it.

[Lolly]

Have you tried a faster flow teat to see if that helps him drink more? Does he show any signs of digestive discomfort like reflux http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0 that may be a long shot but trouble with feeding can be a clue of something going on.

With the rusk I would really advise against it. There are a few reasons really - the guidelines are 17 weeks for solids at the earliest and then under medical supervision (my DD started then because of reflux). Solids are hard on immature digestive systems so you may be making things worse, it will also fill the space in his tummy that is needed for the more calorie and nutrient dense milk. You need to watch with rusks as they have gluten which shouldn't be given before 6 months and even the gluten free ones are full of other ingredients and sugar. Rice is usually a first food because it is simple - if there are any reactions with multiple ingredients you wouldn't know the cause.

I'm not sure the hungry baby milk will help either, especially if he's not drinking as much as he was. Hungry baby milk is designed to be harder to digest for babies who are drinking huge amounts of formula (40oz+) but are too young for weaning so it's cutting their calories by making them less hungry.

I'm assuming bedtime and last feed is around 7? So he actually went from 7-7 without a feed last night - that is excellent for a 12 week old. Even going from 7-3 (8 hours!) is really good! Sleeping through is as much developmental as calorie driven, so only 1 feed without a dreamfeed is something a lot of babies don't do until a lot older than your LO. My two never took to the DF so we just left them to wake when they were hungry (both refluxers), DS had a feed until he was 1 and we weaned DD's nightfeed around 8.5 months.

It looks like you are feeding around 4 hours? At 12 weeks they should really be on a 3 hour EASY although formula fed babies do move to 4 hours before breast fed babies. Can you post your whole day in terms of

Eat - what times how much
Activity - how long for
Sleep - what times, how long for


Laura

[LittleLegs]

Hi Laura

Thanks again for your quick response, much appreciated.  Yes he's on a 4 hrly schedule and it has always worked really well for him, that is before he stopped finishing bottles and becoming a battle with the DF.

Yes we usually bath him at 6:15, do the last feed at 6:30 in dim lighting with lullabies and hes put to bed around 7.

I agree with the rusks the reason why I didn't buy any yesterday was because of the high sugar contents and the ingredients and like you said I always thought I'd start him on the aptamil rice and porridge when the time was right.  I just want him to consue sufficient calories and to maintain his nightime routine without him becoming a snacker and habitual night wakenings etc.

Last night went pretty much the same as the previous night. He woke in the night but settled himself and never cried.  Then I heard him again at 6 so I popped his dummy in (usually only has this for daytime naps) and he went straight back to sleep until 6:40, I then put his morning songs on and he watched then until 7 when I fed him.

His previous EASY routine was as follows.  Firstly I'll explain the daytime nap problems that we have had.  We used the 4 S technique for naps but he only ever went down for 30 minutes (except for the odd time when it was 1-2 hours but this was very rare) after the 30 minutes I repeated the 4S's but he just smiled and cooed at me or cried hysterically and when he calmed I put in cot but 5 minutes later he'd be crying hysterically.  Our main priority was his nighttime as he did sleep so well through the night so early and we didn't want him to start rejecting his cot at night.  So the last 3 weeks I have let him sleep in his chair downstairs, I wait for the signs, pop the dummy in and he's asleep within 5 minutes.  Again only for 30 minutes a time.  He generally has 30 minutes after 2 hours of waking.  I was thinking when he becomes more active and tires himself out more he'll establish his own (hopefully longer) naptime pattern.

Approximate times.

7:10 Wakes
E - 7:30 - 7oz
A - 8:00
S - 9:00
A - 9:30
S - 10:30
A - 11:00
E - 11:30 - 6oz
A - 12:00
S - 13:00
A - 13:30
E - 15:00 - 6oz
A - 15:30
S - 16:00
A - 18:15 Bath
E - 18:30 - 7oz
S - 19:00
E - 22:30 Dreamfeed - 5oz

Obviously now his routine has changed slightly the last few days he is needing his morning naps an hour earlier and he's not consuming all of the bottles that we are offering.

I have wondered whether he has reflux.  The only signs being frequent hiccoughs.  He's never been a sicky baby but he is often sick a little bit when laid down and on occassion is sick (more cottage cheese like) a substantial time after a feed.  Do you ever get definite diagnoses of these things?

I have also wondered if he has been teething the last few weeks as he has red cheek days and is often a little drooly.

We changed to the 3+ month Tommee Tippee teats a few weeks ago.  Could they now be too fast for him?  But I thought reverting back to the 0+ ones he'd tire of sucking and drink less?

Thanks again.  Look forwards to hearing your thoughts.
 

[LittleLegs]

Oh, he also seems to have regressed back with his wind, or lack of it.  We started him on Infacol at 5 weeks and after a few weeks it had a positive effect but over the last few weeks we have been struggling a little again.  I am going to start to use gripe water aswell after feeds where I have had very little wind.

[LittleLegs]

I decided to revert back to the 0+ month teats last night.  I attempted the dreamfeed again at 10:50 (usually 10:30) but only made a 4oz bottle and he took the lot without wriggling or spitting it out, I was disappointed that I didn't have more to give him.  So I will try a 6oz DF tonight at the same time. 

Again however he woke at 6:15 (an hour earlier) but not sure if this is becomming a habit after 3 days or because he's not consuming sufficient calories in the previous 24 hour period?

This morning's feed (again using 0+ teats) was again a battle to get down, he just wasn't interested like he has been the past few weeks but I try and get him to take it because I want to tank him up in the day.  Again not sure if this is related to him possily teething as he plays with the teat and often has his hands in his mouth chomping away.  If so is this likely to be a short lived phase?

I am still having problems with getting any wind out of him and it seems to be passing through him with a little bit of a struggle.

When he woke up from his first morning nap (usual 30 minutes) this morning I put his dummy in and managed to get him back to sleep for another 30 minutes.  Why does he wake up after 30 minutes each time?

Thanks in advance

[Lolly]

I think you have got into an over tired cycle. That first nap is 30 mins because his first A time is too long at this age you are looking at an A time of about 1 hour 20/ 30 mins, so if he wakes at 7.10 you need him back asleep by about 8.30. Here is a link to some sample routines http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164253.0.  If he short naps and you can't extend it then the next A time needs to be reduced - do you have a set wind down routine and are you swaddling? Some of your A tmes in the last EASY you posted are really long which will lead to OT. Being OT will also cause problems with feeding.

If he has lots of hiccups, spits up the curdled milk and is refusing bottles then I would go see your GP and ask about reflux. They won't do any testing, diagnosis is through history and usually a meds trial to see if it helps. Feeding better when sleepy is very common with refluxers which is why dreanfeeds and night feeds are usually better. Sleeping from am 11pm Df til 6 am is a good long stretch for a 12 week old - most mums would kill for that well done! If he is waking earlier then he used to it's probably because of poor naps, so you will need to get him to bed for 12 hours after wake up time.

If he was taking the 3+ teat ok then I would stick to that to be honest.

What do you think?

Laura

[LittleLegs]

Hi Laura,

Thanks again.  I haven't posted a reply because I wanted to see what happens with his feeding after a few days.

I did get him checked by the doctor who checked his tummy and mouth and could see nothing noticeably wrong but said it was hard to tell.  I mentioned the possibility of reflux but he completely dismissed it.  He advised me to keep a closer check on his weight and go back if he doesn't gain/drops.

I was invited to a weaning group this week led by HV's so I discussed DS' feeding.  They didn't have an answer either in view of him always draining every bottle, until he was 12 weeks and now taking 3oz only at each feed.  They also said it could just be a phase and get him weighed every 2 weeks.  He is really happy in himself and has gained 2lb in the last 2 weeks so everything appears ok.

This week he has been drinking a little more (4 or 5 oz at each feed) with the exception of one 1oz feed intake.

He is still wriggling more when we take him out of his cot to dreamfeed him (regardless of varying the times).  Maybe that's normal? He used to be so still and lifeless when we DF.

I have tried changing the feeding schedule for a few days but he took less at his next feed and since the ultimate aim is a 4 hourly schedule I would rather keep that as it has already been established.

He is still sleeping 7pm until 7am so obviously just doesn't seem hungry at the moment and still gaining weight so hopefully it is just a phase.

I do have an issue with the daytime S because he always wakes after 30 minutes regardless of the time that I put him down.  I know he needs longer naps and I have always tried to do this because he has 30 minutes and I can't get him back down again yet 40 minutes later he is a little grisly and may need another 30 minutes.  From 5:30 pm until bathtime at 6:15 I often have a crying baby because he is so tired but regardless of the amount of sleep he has in the day, be it a lot or very little, he always goes down at night (probably because he knows the routine now).  I'm thinking of posting this issue on the sleep forum as this is a seperate issue to my initial question which I am (hopefully) biding my time with as a passing phase...

Thanks again.

[Lolly]

At least he is drinking a bit more! If he is gaining weight and is nice and alert when he is awake and has plenty of wet  and dirty nappies then he will be taking what he needs. They do like to keep us on our toes!

He's doing really well at night! Well done both of you!

I think you are right to bide you time if he is happy - you know where you are if you need anything else . Definitly post on sleep or EASY for a bit of routine help though!

Laura

[LittleLegs]

Hi

I just thought I'd post in case anyone is reading this experiencing a similar scenario.  After 2/3 weeks of progressively taking less and less milk DS now has an increased appetite and is no longer refusing his bottles.  The DF is also as it once was.  What a relief.  It seemed to have just been a phase and it never stopped him sleeping through the night and he somehow still managed to gain weight in that time.

[Lolly]

That's great news! I'm glad he's causing you less worry now!


Laura