Why are naps so hard??! 9 month old

[Kjv201]

Hey

I've received amazing support on here for our night times and night wakings which are now (prayerfully!) cracked, our little man now goes down with hardly a shout with no help at all. This has only been the case as of the last few nights, up until then he needed patting and shushing into a deep sleep and would wake in the night expecting the same.

We are still really struggling for naps, our first nap of the day has always been in the cot (40 mins- 2 hrs but usually 49 mins) and was the least tricky with him occasionally falling asleep on his own, the other naps would always be an absolute nightmare so we ended up doing those out and about in his pram (often leading to them being the longer nap, again 40 mins- 2 hrs but usually around an hour). Due to his cat nap habit I would still try to give him 3 naps a day. Now that we have done the sleep training for the nights I would like to keep things consistent in the day, I have reduced to 2 naps which are now mostly both in his cot but we are really struggling. The routine I'm trying to follow is:

7.30 wake and BF
8.30 breakfast
10.00 nap
11.30 snack
1.00 lunch
2.00 nap
3.00 BF and snack
5.00 dinner
6.00 bath, bottle, story, bed
6.30/7 sleep


Can someone please suggest a routine we can follow that unsuccessful naps won't clash with snacks etc? When I put him down for naps he will either shout and cry (escalates momentarily then calms so I don't go in but this cycle can continue for ages) both standing up then lying back down, he will then maybe sleep for 10 mins or so before waking up and continuing the cycle, possibly dropping off again for another short nap, or he will escalate so i go in and reassure him (this always seems to make the crying worse) after which he hasn't yet gone to sleep even after a full 1.5 hrs.

My questions are (sorry there's a list!!):

Do I still go in when he escalates even if it seems to aggravate him more?

Do I stop after 40 mins for a play break for 10 mins even if he is going between mantra cry, standing up and lying down and looking like there's a remote chance he may sleep?

After 1.5 hrs trying do I get him up and give him a snack then put him back down again? Today we tried unsuccessfully from 2-3.30 to get him to sleep, got him up and fed him and then weren't sure if we were too close to bedtime for him to try again despite him having only slept for 45 mins in the morning?

Thanks so much

Kara

[Pinkviolet]

Hi there,

In by no means an expert ( my lo is nearly 10 mo and we have our own sleep struggles!) but it seems to me that your lo's A time is rather low for his age. I believe most babies of this age can do 3-4 hrs A time ( with some doing more). Check out the FAQ's post on A times. We, like you were on low A times when I posted here at 7 months. This meant my lo had 3+ catnaps a day! The advice I received was to push the first A time by 10-15 mins every 3 or so days to see if we could get a longer nap. My lo's A time jumped quite quickly and hey presto he no longer fought his naps and slept for 1-2 hrs. I'd say that your lo may be fighting the naps after 2.5hrs because he may not be tired enough? What do you think?

The other really useful piece of advice given to me was that babies of this age can show tired signs for all sorts of reasons, for example bored/ need a change of scene/ habitually used to going to sleep at a certain time. But if you gradually push the A time, they will become used to being up longer and hopefully give you a decent nap. I found fresh air, a snack and walking round the house pointing out pictures etc. helped when extending A time.

If I were you ( and I have been where you are! Lol) I would try to increase his first A time by 10-15 mins every 3 days ( although I found once we got over the initial increase, my lo was able to handle big jumps in A time) and see if you get a longer nap. You may find that once he's tired enough, he'll no longer fight the naps and go straight off to sleep.  What do you think?

I also found it helpful to forget about set times for things, but follow a loose routine based on EASY. Otherwise I found myself getting stressed out if something didn't happen at that particular time for which Id planed. Particularly when pushing the A times, as its a bit of trial and error.

Im sure someone with far my experience than me will come along and offer some great advice, I just wanted to share with you what helped me. Hope this helps.

[Kellyjs]

Fantastic advice from pinkviolet.

Unfortunately around this time it is hard to fit in snacks, solids and milk. I would just concentrate on the milk and solids as a secondary and if there's too much time in the middle, then offer a snack. Milk is the primary source of nutrition up until 1yo. Once you go onto cows milk (or equivalent if needs be), then you'll find it much easier to fit in everything.

I would do as pp suggests in increasing the A time. To answer your questions...The standing up and down again signals UT to me, so really needs a push in A times. You'll hopefully find once you hit decent times the second question won't apply anymore. Let us know how you get on with this and hopefully it'll start to settle down for you. Hth x

[Kjv201]

Thank you so much for the advice, a problem shared is definitely a problem halved! I'm slowly increasing the A time before the first nap, I'm now up to 2hrs 45 mins which he's finding hard as he seems shattered by 2hrs 15 mins but for the last two days he's gone straight to sleep when I put him down (no more patting and shushing!!) which is great. Unfortunately he's only stayed asleep for 20 mins both times but I'm hoping as the A time continues to increase that he will sleep for longer. Extending the nap doesn't seem to work as if I go in the room he just goes bananas so unless he goes back off himself within 10 mins we scrap it. The rest of the day has now become hard as we're playing catch up in a series of overtired catnaps (often only having an hours sleep across the whole day), again hoping this will solve itself in time as we've only been at this for a week.

It's so reassuring to hear from someone that's come through it!! A week can feel like an awfully long time when you're in the midst of it all!

Kara x

[Pinkviolet]

I feel for you, I really do! I know what it's like to feel like your not getting anywhere with naps. However, that is great news that your lo is now settling well and you have managed to increase his A time. Well done! Just have to keep pushing that A time slowly but surely and hope you get a decent nap.
The advice I was given is that a nap of 20 mins can sometimes be due to discomfort. Is he teething at all?

Have you tried an early bed time on those days where he's had very little sleep? This was recommended to me to avoid getting into an overtired spiral. What is your second A time after a short first nap? Maybe post your EASY for the last few days and in sure one of the experienced ladies on here will cast their eye for you. I received lots of help on here when pushing A times at 7 months. I'll try to post a link to the threads for you to read if this helps.

With regards to extending naps, I was advised that generally an overtired short nap is easier to extend than an undertired. I certainly found this was the case for my lo. I know it sounds utterly crazy when your lo looks tired, but it could be that your lo is still under tired and therefore won't re settle when he wakes early. Don't worry about it ( easier said than done). Try the next nap after a shorter A time ( I was advised 2hrs as my lo was used to such a short A, but one of the ladies on here might be able to offer a more accurate time for you) and you can always try and early bedtime to combate any over tiredness.

Keep going, sounds like you're making progress.

[Pinkviolet]

7 month old 1hr wake time

This is the link to my post a few months ago. I'm not sure how to link a thread! Lol! But hopefully this work

[Kjv201]

Thank you for all of your support. The 20 minute wakings are still happening unfortunately, having reread this I think I need to keep pushing his A time as we are still stuck at 2hrs 45 mins. The longest naps he has managed are 40 mins but this has only happened twice in a month. Yesterday I had to drive to a friends an hour and a half away, I timed this for his 2 naps and he slept all the way there and for an hour on the way home which shows me he can do it and clearly needs it but just isnt able to resettle. He also then lasted a happy 3 1/2 hrs until his second nap as he had clearly had a decent sleep.

Our routine is as follows at the mo:

6.30 wake up and BF
7.30 breakfast
9.00 wind down- story, white noise on, lights low
9.15- 9.40 wake up
10.30 snack
12.30 lunch
12.45-1.30/1.45 nap (now usually in his pram as I can't face the thought of another short nap). If in his cot this will usually be a 40 mins nap
3.00 BF and snack
5.00 dinner
6.00 bath
6.30 bed

When I tried pushing the A beyond 2 hrs 45 mins he would often not go down to sleep which made me think he was OT. Can 20 min naps be due to OT or is this unlikely? I never know if I'm dealing with OT or UT these days!

I'm really struggling with extending the nap, is wake to sleep even a possibility with a 20 min nap? When he wakes would you just stay by the cot telling him it's okay? He stands and starts trying to claw at me through the cot bars. I'm very axioms about doing anything that is going to interfere with his night sleep as its only been back to normal for a month. He will fall asleep instantly for both nap and bedtime sleep which is amazing but we have no plan B for how to get him back down for night waking a or short naps. As he got so hooked on patting then on shushing, then seemingly to us being in the room I feel helpless as to what to do that he isn't going to get hooked on!

That's so interesting about the 20 min pain sleeps as we've had 4 teeth coming through for a few weeks but not sure if I can still blame it on that solely. I think I need to scrap plans for a couple of weeks to really work on this and be brave to keep going using the cot rather than copping out and using the pram! 2 hr A time after a bad nap sounds like a good idea too, hopefully if I manage to get nearly all naps in the cot he will start to recognise the routine and sleep for longer too. How did you manage to extend naps? Did you try and make sure you were at home for both naps at this stage?

Thanks so much for all of your help, really hoping to see some progress with my husband being off over Christmas aswell. would just love to get to the stage that we could put him down easily and he would just sleep!!! Cracked the going down easily bit, just the sleeping to go!

Kara xx

[Kjv201]

Also thanks pink violet for this link I will look through now. x

[Kellyjs]

How does he go to sleep hun if I may ask? Is he an independent sleeper? It's really interesting to know he can sleep longer when there's movement like the pram or car, which leads me to think there may be a prop issue there? As you said, he got really hooked on the shushing so perhaps he's relying on the movement of the pram to keep him asleep longer? Or else that A time is just about right for him after a short nap.. Won't know until you try him in the cot for that nap I suppose.

I think there's a huge leap around 9-10mo that results in a dramatic increase in A time needed. It happened to us here and it's happening to pinkviolet too. It's really hard to judge whether UT or OT but a 20mins nap can signal discomfort, so I'd rule that out first by medicating with ibuprofen if you suspect teeth. I would definitely extend that first A somewhat to get him closer to 3.5hrs then try w2s. This won't work if he's in discomfort or if the A time is too low. I really think you have time in your day to extend this first A as your last A to BT is very, very long.. Has he always preferred a long a to BT? That's nearly 5hrs.. My 17mo on one nap can't do that!

[Pinkviolet]

I totally agree with Kellyjs obviously! She has helped me alot recently! One thing I would say is looking at your example day, he's having 12hrs night sleep ( that is fantastic! My lo on average does 10.5hrs) and his total naps were about 1hr 25 mins. This means total sleep in 24hrs is over 13hrs. I can only speak from experience but it could be that this is enough for your lo. I know it certainly is for mine. Some have it lucky with a lo who will do 12hrs at night and 2-3hrs in the day. This has never been the case for us. I would push that first A time. I know it's hard, I really do. But it will be worth it if you can get a good nap of 1hr or more then a catnap later in the day to see him through to bt. When you did push the first A past 2hrs 45, how much was it by? And how many days did you hold it for?

[Pinkviolet]

Forgot to say, yes I tried to be home for the first nap as this was the longest one then could be out and about for the second one. However, things seem to change so quickly at this stage ( we are in the middle of an early 2:1 transition and now I'm trying to do the opposite! Lol) anyway, my point is you can drive yourself mad with trying to sort out naps. Don't stress if you have a bad day ( easier said than done!) just start a fresh the next day. It's good to be consistent when making changes, but don't best yourself up if it all goes to pot one day and you need to just get out of the house! Lol!

[Kjv201]

Have managed to stretch morning A time to 3 hrs, he was a little tricky going down yesterday and slept for 15 mins (5 mins less than his usual 20 mins)!

I'm at a total loss as to how to resettle with early nap waking, any tips would be much appreciated! Do I keep at it for a full 1.5 hours? Scared to shush or pat or even go in as he escalates so much. Never sure whether to pick up either at this age or even put down each time he stands. Going to give naps a real go for the 2 weeks my husband is off over Xmas so I have some support and going to try at least 2 naps in the cot each day ( I forgot to add in my last daily routine that I still do a 3rd nap as he has been having such short catnaps).

He settles on his own now which is frankly a miracle! This is why I'm so nervous about resettling at naps as he gets so hooked with props and I don't know what to do that he won then rely on and start waking for in the night.

Pink violet I noticed that you said you did shushing, would you just stay outside the door and shush? How successful is accidental parenting on purpose? He loves to be rocked but we had such big issues with this after his recent illness that he started waking hourly in the night to be rocked back to sleep.

Thanks so much again

Kara x

[Kellyjs]

I'd only try and resettle for. 15 mins hun at most. If you're in there the full 1.5 hrs you'll drive yourself bonkers.

Ahh that makes sense abou a CN being in there before that BT. I really think he needs more of a push in A time but those naps are rubbish aren't they? I'm thinking he may be in discomfort, but is he waking happy?

[Pinkviolet]

^ agree! Don't go mad trying to resettle. I never did, just got him up and started afresh with the next A time most of the time. If he didn't settle in 5-10 mins, I got him up.

With regard to shhing, it worked sometimes when my lo once 6-7 months. Very occasionally it works now but rarely, it seems to wake him more at this age. If I'm perfectly honest, I think there's a fine line between apop and things becoming a prop. I feel it may becoming a prop for my lo to be held, but hard to tell at the mo as he's poorly. My advice, only apop if you really have to particularly if you've just weaned your lo off props. Having said that, if you do apop don't beat yourself up over it, just do it mindfully.

I agree with Kellyjs to keep pushing A time. How old is he now btw? If he self settles, there isn't a prop issue and he's not in pain then I can only assume he needs more A. Like I say, I'm really no expert, but this is what I've experienced with my own lo. What has your EASY been for the days you've had him on 3hrs A?