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SLEEP => General Sleep Issues => Topic started by: eva026 on November 25, 2017, 09:12:07 am
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Hey There!
Very tired mom here, hoping for some help with everything sleep related really.
I’ve been on the EASY boards and her easy is as good as can be. Sleep unfortunately still not.
She’s a textbook/ grumpy baby. Cries before every nap since day one, no matter how perfect her A time. She’s done 40min naps pretty much since birth but they can mostly be extended by rocking. I was hoping to avoid sleep training till she finished 6mo ( her sister as the same issues with transitions and they pretty much sorted themselves at 6mo, so I just had to work on weaning the rocking at the start of naps).
At about 3.5 months she went from 1-2 NF to 3 ( we don’t do a DF as I just don’t have the time to pump 2 a day) then just over 2 weeks ago she got sick. We had a few nights of crying and sleeping on me and she’s just never gone back to normal nights. Since then we have had 4-6 nw and frankly I’m exhausted. Before the illness I had been working on the gentle removal of the rocking and was down to only holding her and stroking. Well we are back to square 1 now.
I’ve kind of backed myself into a corner: too scared to sleep train because that makes then OT and makes nights worse but I’m not sure if the holding for naps isn’t the thing that’s making the nights bad anyT? It never had any effect before the illness though and her sister was totally ok with it.
I’ve been keeping easy logs the last few days;
Her A time is 1.50min on a long nap and 1.30min on a short one. WU 7.30-8am, BT 7.30-8am. I try for 2 long naps and a cn and adjust BT accordingly. We tried extending A time on the easy boards but any more doesn’t work.
Day1
7.25 WU
9.20 s 30min
90.50 WU - had to go to mom and baby group
S 11.30 30min - at mom and baby group
WU 12.00
S 13.40
WU 14.15
S 15.10
16.40 wu
18.15 s 30min
18.45 wu
Bt 8.30
Nw 9.30, 11 (my fault I woke her coming into the room)2-3 more
Ew 6.50 - back to sleep till 7.40
Day 2
WU 7.40 a 1.50
S 9.30 s 2.10
Wu 11.40
Sc13.35
WU 15.10
S 17.10
WU 17.53
Bt 7.35
Nf 12,2,4,6
Today
Wu 7.30 A 1.50h
S9.22 S 1.10 h not in arms httj
WU 10.35 A 1.50h
S 12.23 - 35min in stir, httj and stroke, 45min in eyes open. Picked up and shhhh stroke - fell asleep. No rocking.
WU 14.10 A2.10h
Gone out
S 16.20 20min
16.40 WU
18.00s at home, in arms no rocking
WU 18.35
BT 20.20
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One more day I found:
WU 8am
A 1.5
S 1.30
A 1.5
S 1.45
Then I had to go in to the dr so she ended up with an A of 2h and totally OS
S 30min (5.20pm)
Tried to get her down for a cn but it did t work
EBT at 7.20 pm (ended up with an A of 2h)
NF 9pm ( couldn’t get any milk into her at BT )
NF 12.30
Nw 1-3pm - slept on me till 4am
NF 4am - couldn’t get her to sleep till 4.30am
WU 7am
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Oh and btw - all long naps are in arms
She isn’t swaddled because she starters rolling very early.can do both sides, front to back, starting back to tummy now.
She’s in her own bed BT- first feed then I keep her with me in bed. Can’t face going up and down 20 times a night. We just ordered a bed that attaches to ours and I’m ok with her in that till she is in a normal bed
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Been keeping notes the last few days:
Wu 7.30 A 1.50
S9.22 S 1. 10 not in arms httj
WU 10.35 A 1.50
S 12.23 - 35min in stir, httj and stroke, 45min in eyes open. Picked up and shhhh stroke - fell asleep. No rocking.
WU 14.10
Gone out
S 16.20 20min
16.40 WU
18.00s at home, in arms no rocking
WU 18.35
BT 20.20
NF 12,2,4,6
WU 7.40
S 9.30 A1.50h
WU 10.00 S30min
S 11.20 A1.20h
WU 13.08 S1.50h
S 14.45 A 1.35
WU 16.20
S 18.15
WU 18.45
BT 20.20
Nf1,4,6
Wu 7.30 A 1.55
S 9.25 S 40
Wu 10.05 A 1.05
11.10 s s 1.30
12.40wu A 1.35
14.15 s s 1.30
15.45 wu A1.45
S 17.30 s45
18.15 wu
BT 8.00 pm
WU 11,1,3,4,6
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Hi, sorry your post looks like its been missed.
I am inclined to think she probably need a touch more A time. I can see she's occasionally sleeping ok with your intervention with HTTJ and shush/pat around the transition points. Are you able to do that consistently for a few days?
The worst day I could see in those days you've posted was when you woke her after 30min to take her to baby group and the whole day went downhill from there really. The other days don't look too bad.
I think if you're prepared to bits of shush/pat and HTTJ consistently, you may well have an independent sleeper before you get to 6mo provided her routine is appropriate for her. She is doing some UT naps in there on the 1:50 A time and I think if you gave that a nudge to 2hr or 2:15, you may find that gets a bit better.
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I was thinking to increase her morning A to 2h - yesterday the morning A of 1.50 gave a 50min nap and we had an ew at 6.30 today - managed to apop her back to sleep till 7.45 though.
Are the later A times ok with 1.50 for now? She was fussy as crying yesterday with her last A1.50 before the CN
The problem with httj etc is that all long naps are still in my arms. Occasionally when I don’t have to take her anywhere or pick DD1 up I try one out of my arms with just httj - sometimes it works to extend but more often not.
I just feel like I’m dealing with so many things at once I don’t know where to start.
Rocking has been successfully dealt with but the holding no. Do I leave that for now because I’m extending A and she might get OT or tackle that at the same time ? She has done 45minnaps since birth unless held.
I’ve cut mom-baby group down to every second week because I’m too anxious to deal with that on top of the lack of sleep. And I’m exactly at the point I was with DD1, too stressed about her sleeping to do much. I have 1 year of maternity leave so I promised myself I wouldn’t get so wound up because I can hold her during naps till she doesn’t need it as much any more. Anyway...
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Are naps in arms because you're not home or because you're not putting her down? Just wondering. I think either way, a longer A time will help with resettling and nap length.
I think you're not going to know if she can do more than 45min naps whilst not being held unless you try - for that though, she needs to not be UT, hence the increase in A time; and she needs to be put down - not saying you don't sit next to her and reassure if necessary but its different sleeping on mum than sleeping in bed. Not saying you have to do that but I think she's reliant on you for sleep and its hard to get a good picture of what A time will suit her in the presence of that prop.
I see you're wanting to avoid stressing out about sleep. I think in that case, you are the maker of your own destiny - we can make all the changes at once and in a week we'll be talking about tweaking or you can make each change individually and it'll take longer but it'll be more gradual. Either way, I'm happy to hold your hand through it. The key with any change is to be consistent with it. Perhaps you could start each change at a time you have more support with DD1. The first and most important change is really to bump that A time. I'd say most particularly the first one but all of them could do with an increase, really.
With the crying at 1:50 for the CN - was that before or after she knew if was nap time? Wondering if she was OS and upset or UT and protesting sleep rather than OT though she could well be OT at the end of a day with poor naps.
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Are naps in arms because you're not home or because you're not putting her down? Just wondering. I think either way, a longer A time will help with resettling and nap length.
Both really. In the afternoon the cn has to be in the sling because I pick her sister up then.
Otherwise I’ve been holding her because I’m scared she will do short naps and then get OT and have even worse nights. Vicious circle. I’m a freaking addict I swear!
I sometimes try putting her down if I know I have time and nothing pressing that day so if the naps suck I can hold her in the afternoon if the rest of the days naps suck.
But you are totally right, I won’t kniw if she can do it till I try more consistently.
The only thing I have on my side is time, I only go back to work at the end of next summer!
So baby steps? I’ll start bedtime shh pat not in arms.
Increase morning A time and hold a few days then next one and next? Once that is done put her down for naps and try httj and shhh pat for transitions. Is that ok?
Btw I just increased her first A to 2h and ended up rocking from 30min-1hS because she kept waking and whimpering 😖. She does look to be on her way to a 2h nap now that the bad part is over. 1.45h and counting. The OT 30min nap should be ok after I hold this time a few days?
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With the crying at 1:50 for the CN - was that before or after she knew if was nap time? Wondering if she was OS and upset or UT and protesting sleep rather than OT though she could well be OT at the end of a day with poor naps.
That was before she knew it was nap time. I didn’t realize it had gotten so late.
Yesterday was ok with naps though.
WU 7.26 A1.51
S 9.25 S 50min
WU 10.15 A1.30 went to get groceries
S 12.00 S40min in sling in shop
12.42 WU A1.25
S 14.05 s 1.45
WU 15.50 A 1.55
S17.45 crying tired nap in sling because of DD1 being home
WU 18.20
BT 7.40 only got to sleep 8.25 because she kept waking every 5min
NF 1am, NF 4am shhh/pat to sleep 30min (on bed not in arms)
Ew 6.30 but rocked her in the bathroom (only room with no window) and she slept till 7.45
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Very good day I think.
WU 7.44 A2h
S 9.45 S 2h
WU 11.48 A2h
S 13.49 S1.50 (not in arms, woke at 30min rest of nap on me)
WU 16.40 A 1.45
S 17.25 very OT
WU 18.00 S 35min
Will do BT 19.30 in an A of 1.30h
She fed at 8.30, after nap1, before nap2 top up, after nap 2, after cn and will try a top up for BT
Let’s see what the night brings.
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The OT 30min nap should be ok after I hold this time a few days?
Yes, it should.
Otherwise I’ve been holding her because I’m scared she will do short naps and then get OT and have even worse nights. Vicious circle. I’m a freaking addict I swear!
So many people do this - worry about short-term OT that gives a 30min waking that's usually easily resettled but then LO is UT for naps, has short, non-restorative naps and ends up OT. I'm not saying to keep her up til she collapses, but pushing a little here and there is actually not a bad thing.
Sounds like you've a good plan that you're happy with. Keep us posted :)
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Bad night again, up every 2h and Ew 6.00 but i resetled by taking her into the dark bathroom and she slept till 8am
The nights won’t improve right away either? I guess I was hoping it would be a magic fix.
Got vaccinations today so only the first A and s will be ok, the we’ll have to wing it.
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It'll take a little while for nights to get better unfortunately.
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Ok at least I’m prepared for that.
I don’t know what this illness did to her, 3 weeks later and she’s still not in track after it! Maybe it was illness with the 4mo regression thrown in.
Btw bed time last night was not in my arms, just laying next to her with her head on my hand.
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I don’t know what this illness did to her, 3 weeks later and she’s still not in track after it!
It can be really tricky because they can need a bit more sleep when they're crook so it seems like you can't push A times but then time is still marching on and they need a bigger push than usual when they're better to get back on track. Also, you know there are a few days when you're over the worst of an illness but still not feeling great - that happens to babies too.
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Still struggling at the 30min mark and needs lots of rocking to get her back to sleep. It’s been 4 days in the new routine.
Thursday
Wu 8.00 A1.55
S 9.55
WU 11.50
S14.15 2h
WU 16.20
S 18.15 20min we had guests
S BT 19.45
NF 22,2,5, ew 6 resettled - this was a pretty good night
WU 7.47
S 9.47
WU 11.40 very unsettled s, resettled at 30min, 40min hiccuping and took ages to get her back asleep, don’t know if I can even count this as a 2h nap with all the shenanigans
S 13.40
Wu 15.50
S 17.50 30min
Bt 7.50 But I couldn’t get her to sleep till 8.30
Nw 11,1,2,3,4,5 - aaaaa she’s torturing me!
This may have been my fault, I tried a df at 11 and she ended up waking. Is that why she kept waking every hour after?
Wu 7.45
Another thing I’ve noticed is that she’s shifting her calories. 3nf then she’s not hungry till 10-11 am. I guess that’s pretty typical for this age. I’m fine with 3 NF as long as that’s it.
She was checked by a dr on Thursday and she’s a picture of health. She did however drop a bit on the centiles - was 10th now between 3rd and 10th, dr said it’s probably due to the illness and that’s why she’s making up for it at night. But as I said, 3nf are fine.
Keep at it with the new routine despite the 30min WU?
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Just wondering, can I swaddle? Maybe just wrapping her arms if o stay near her when she sleeps? She started rolling sides rather early and I stopped but I do recall this helping her sister at this age.
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This may have been my fault, I tried a df at 11 and she ended up waking. Is that why she kept waking every hour after?
Possibly, could be pain too - its unusual to wake that frequently.
I wonder if she's shifting not only her calories but her night as well...
Are naps getting any easier? There's plenty of resettling happening from what I'm reading but is there improvement?
If you can stay with her and watch her, that's ok - its just not safe to swaddle when they can roll then leave them unattended.
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Naps are good, we are on a consistent routine of 2x2 and a CN so life is actually possible to plan now.
Yesterday was a bit chaotic because grandpa came to hang some shelves so she did A2h,S1.30, A2h S40min. A2h, S2h and BT 2 h later in theory, in practice DH tried to put her to sleep and that was a fail so stepped in and her final A was 2.30h. Nw 910pm because of OT for sure. NF1,3,5 - not a bad night I’d say. It’s 7.50 and she’s still sleeping.
I don’t feel like she’s shifting her night, she’s pretty consistent with WU 7.30-8am and BT 7.30-8pm
Her nw are not happy and chatty at all, rather she grunts, whimpers, thrashed about. It does keep bringing me back to pain, like you said. Teeth so early?
I’ll keep on and hopefully the 30min resettle at naps will be better, not full on crying and the I can work on putting her to sleep not in my arms. It works well for BT now.
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Her nw are not happy and chatty at all, rather she grunts, whimpers, thrashed about. It does keep bringing me back to pain, like you said. Teeth so early?
Could be teeth. I note that its all after the NF at ~1am... Perhaps wind pain also, even babies who cope well with feeds through the day can gulp a bit in MOTN feeds when your supply is a bit higher and cause themselves wind pain, then they're desperate to feed and gulp again and the cycle repeats. I presume you're burping her after NFs? Can also try lying back a bit to feed at that 1am feed and see if that helps.
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Er... no actually I haven’t been burping her at all at night. She’s right next to me so I can her here starting to root around and feed before she’s desperate. Her feeds at nights are much slower and she doesn’t suck hard at all. Will try burping tonight though.
She woke at 8, first feed at 10am! So 5h since the NF. Think her sister being on top of her all morning did nothing to help.
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Ok bringing out the teething gel, she’s still not eating. She had a tiny bit befor her nap 2h ago and won’t have more now.
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Her feeds at nights are much slower and she doesn’t suck hard at all.
If your letdown is stronger at night/flow is stronger due to increased supply, she may not need to as the milk can squirt out at her, causing her to swallow air and milk to keep up with the milk flow.
Hope the teething gel helps!
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The night was fantastic, best we’ve had since these problems started 6 weeks ago. She fell asleep 20.15 and only 2 NF at 2am and 5am. I’m not getting my hopes up that it will always be like this though.
Still having feeding issues though. She last ate at 5am, it’s 9.15 and she won’t feed, despite the gel. Honestly if it’s not one thing it’s another!
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Is she sick at all? I hope not, but sometimes LO goes off their food before illness becomes obvious. Wondering re: reflux too - sometimes that can have LO's wanting to feed frequently at night and not wanting as much through the day.
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I hope not! I was thinking teeth? Her night was also really unsettled, lots of nw.
Reflux, not sure. Would reflux present one night and not another? She hardly ever spits up or shows any kind of pain after feeding. Usually her feeds are 3h apart. Yesterday she did 4h then every 2 towards evening. We ended up with 5 day feeds - think that’s ok? Don’t know how many NF, lost count 😖. I think she woke every 2h or so, some I could stroke her and she eventually fell asleep, other times I resorted to feeding.
Her easy is definitely on track, we are on a nice 4h easy, she goes to sleep BT a tad OT (sister is home then DH arrives to I can’t always start putting her to sleep when I should) but not very.
The odd thing is it’s so inconsistent. One night will be good, then 2 bad, then good again etc.
I’ve got BT down, rock till she stops crying (she always fusses when it’s time to sleep), then lay her down on my arm - usually starts fussing again, finally when she stops I slip her off my arm and shhh/stroke till she’s asleep. Think that’s moving in the right direction?
Naps I only hold and stroke, tiny bit of rocking at the transitions if she starts crying.
Do you think I can start sleep training some naps not others? Like most mornings should be ok,besides weekends? Or sleep train only on days I know I have time to make up the sleep ?
Still tempted to wait till 6 months... maybe I’m just putting off the inevitable
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Sounds like you might have a bit of an UT/OT cycle going over a few days.
I reckon she may need to move on from 2hr A times a little bit, say to 2:15. That may cut down on the fussing at sleep time and help with transitions.
Yes, you can ST for some naps and not others, plenty of babies make 'per nap' habits, so get used to certain naps in the crib and others in the pram/car/carrier, etc. The best time to ST is when there's a solid routine in place and LO is already in the habit of sleeping at those times, takes some unknowns out of the equation. I ST my DS at around this age and it was done very quickly because we had a great routine that suited him well already in place.
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2.10? She’s only been on 2A a week and is still waking at 30min needling to be put to sleep.
Yesterday:
WU 7.30 A2h
S2h
A 2h
S 2
A 2.h
S30min
BT 7..30 after A1.30 fell asleep 7.45
Woke 8.30, 9.30ish, 10, 2, 4,5-or6 not sure
Up for the day 7.20
The A before the CN was in the bus picking DD1 up from kindergarten so I expected OS
So I’ll do A2.10 this morning
Oh and I fed her at every nw this time, because of my breast issues
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WU 7.20
S 9.30
WU 10.00 can’t resettle
S 11.30 - she’s a wreck so tired
13.00 wu drilling grr
S15.00
Wu 17.30
Bt 19.30 - Still not asleep and Its 20.30!
Im going to have to just leave her in the cot because I have DD1 to bath and get in bed.
What is going on???
Dh is in there trying and I feel like an awful mom because I just can’t take it any more. Between the sleepless night, evenings spent in and out of her room and no time to spend with DD1 not to mention time to try do something about my plugged duct, im just out of patience
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Ok, sorry, I didn't realise you were resettling at 30min still. Leave it at 2hr then. She seems pretty HSN then. Good to know ;)
You're leaving her in the very capable hands of the man you chose to have children with. That's not being a terrible mum. Its been a trying day, its ok to have had enough - you have left her safe and cared for whilst you do other mum jobs. You're a great mum, doing your best and its good. Hugs for the rough day xx
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Sorry, tough day. Thank you for your words of encouragement.
Ended up arguing with DH too, he’s getting irritated that I go to bed so early at 9.30. And I’m mad that he often comes home after the kids are asleep so has no clue how to put his own baby to sleep.
She had maybe one day where she made it passed the 30min mark but so far she’s still waking at that time.
I’m wondering what on earth went wrong yesterday with the 2h bed time? I mean she was after a 2h A so she should have gone to sleep fast.
She had a ew at 6.30 on top of the 9.30pm BT but I managed to get her back into an uneasy sleep till 7.20am counting that as her WU time.
Back to plugging away with the 2x2 Easy
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Bed time could be lots of things. If it doesn't become something that happen every day, I'd just chalk it up as an oddity.
Hugs xx hope things are better for you soon.
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Think teeth are incoming. She keeps gnawing on whatever she can and I can see two lines where the teeth should be. Not through the gym yet though. Can teething be ok during the day but worse at night? May seem a silly question as she isn’t my first but DD1 would just wake in the morning with a tooth, no screaming at all.
Or I may be looking for an excuse, she’s only 5 months old, DD1 was 8 months old before her first tooth cane.
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Can teething be ok during the day but worse at night?
Yup, absolutely - more to distract her in the day. I think you just hit the teething jackpot with your first. Mine had teeth at this age and its did mess with his sleep a lot.
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I kept trying to check her gum yesterday and I think I imagined those to lines.
Anyway, she slept through the 30min mark and did the 40min one instead and a happy chatty NW. definitely increasing her A time today. The night was otherwise 3nf and one long chatty nw. Going to be cranky today - me not her!
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Hmmm she is a bit tricky isn't she?! Fingers crossed for a better day.
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Thank you for all the hand holding.
I totally don’t get this kid. Dh isn’t much help either, just staying at work as long as he can and coming home when they are both asleep 😖
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We’re in a bit of a pickle now. Not sure what to do.
Yesterday wanted to extend her A but it was all a bit of a mess. Had to take DD1 into kindergarten so left DD2 with DH and instructions to start her wd at 2hA. Figured it would take 10-15 min for him to get her to sleep. He said she was out in 2 min. So that nap was 40min, next A i did 2h and S 1.5h. Then I apoped a nap at 1.59A because I was supposed to pick DD1 up and wanted DD2 to get at least 40min sleep before I’d have to wake her. Dh called that he’ll pick DD1 up so DD2 finally slept 1.5h. The final A ended up being 2.5h. She went to bed a tad OT so woke and hour later and had to put her back to sleep. NF 10, 2 and 4.40 she woke, wasn’t hungry just wanted to play. After 30min I took her to our dark bathroom and she fell asleep but kept waking chatty every 10min. 6am I was about to loose it to gave her to DH to try get to sleep and went to lay down on the sofa. Looked in 6.20 DH is snoring... she isn’t sleeping. Took her back to the bathroom and she fell asleep instantly but for 40min. I’m rocking her and she fell asleep at some point , woke 7.53am
So was that 5amish WU an ew and that was the start to the day and I have just done a too short First A so tonight I get no sleep as usual? Or was that a nw and 7.50am is the start to the day?
Don’t know how we’ll manage today as she will only get the chance for one long nap in the morning. The rest of the day we have a birthday and a family visit, so she’ll have to do her 20min naps in the sling very os and OT.
From Monday I can work on extending properly because Sunday we are all over the place in the afternoon too. So for i day 1.15A or 2.20?
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Or was that a nw and 7.50am is the start to the day?
I would just call it a long happy NW.
I'd go for 2:20 and see how you go. Glad DH is helping out a bit.
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Ended up with This:
WU 7.53
S 10.08
Wu 11.40
S14.00 in sling we were out
Wu 14.45
S 16.35 sling
Wu 17.20
EBT 19.20
Nw 20, 20.30, NF 10.00,1am
It’s 5am and she’s been up the last hour.
So more A? What would the A be on a short nap? I did about 2 h but that’s obviously not working
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I don't think she needs a reduction in the next A time after an UT nap - so just do the 2:15-2:20 again. I reckon I'd reduce to 2hr if she did a 30min OT nap though.
Did you feed at that long NW? DYT it might be developmental with sitting/crawling? Otherwise, yes, keep it to at least 2:20 first A time and maybe a smidgeon longer and see what happens.
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She finally fell asleep at 5.20, woke 6.30 and I got her back to sleep pretty quickly on me till 8am.
Will try 2.20ish today
Yes I fed mid way through the nw. I tried as soon as she woke thinking she was hungry but she wouldn’t even latch on till much later.
She is sitting a bit better, slowly working out how to support herself on her hands before she topples to the side. I’d be handling this all better if it wasn’t on top of weeks and weeks of bad nights.
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What do you think of this: A2.20 CN, A 2h s 1.5-2h, A2.20, CN in sling in the way to pick her sister up?
That way I can st the first nap but also take into account that it won’t go longer than 40min because she still doesn’t transition on her own and I can hold her through nap 2 to make sure she gets one ok one?
WU 7.30
S 9.50
WU 10.30
S 12.30
WU 2.30
S4.50 ish in sling
WU 5.30
BT 7.30
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Looks the goods. Should do the trick for a while. Give it a go for a bit and see how she goes.
The exhaustion really is awful, makes everything seem worse. Hugs xx
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Looks to be working. I wont write about our lack of cot parties now because it will jinx it!
She’s still doing 3nf so basically up every 3h at night. We have some nw within 1.5h of BT. I’m wondering if we aren’t skating the edge of OT. She going down a screaming mess at nap time after 2.20A and BT is similar. Carry on with 2.20 on a long nap and 2h on a short one or pull back to 2.15?
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Actually 4nf, last day feed 7pm then 10, 1, 4, 7 up for the day 7.40 I’ve been trying to feed her less st 4am
Also, would you wake her if her long nap goes over 2h? If not how long do I let her sleep without it impacting nights?
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Actually 4nf, last day feed 7pm then 10, 1, 4, 7 up for the day 7.40 I’ve been trying to feed her less st 4am
I'd probably not try to reduce the 4am feed at this point... Also, I'd probably just get her up for the day at 7am if BT is ~7pm... That's me though, your choice!
Yes, I'd wake if nap goes >2hr - I'd wake when she stirs or at 2:15 whichever is sooner. That way you're waking her at the transition between sleep cycles and that's probably the least unpleasant way to be woken.
WRT to being on the edge of OT... that's only going to be the case for a short while. I'd probably leave it given you're getting decent naps and she'll grow into it in a few days anyway. She may be a touch OT or OS before bed if she's waking in that first 3hr after BT - you could reduce that A time a touch and see if it helps.
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Ok thanks!
BT is 7.30-8pm depending on what time she wakes. Can’t do 7pm as that’s when DH finally gets home, he’d never see her, only sees her 30min a day as it is.
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Can’t do 7pm as that’s when DH finally gets home, he’d never see her, only sees her 30min a day as it is.
This is a sure recipe for OS. We always had disastrous BTs when DH came home too close to BT and it wasn't his fault, he wasn't even winding DS up, DS was just so excited to see his daddy. Hugs xx Is is seriously exhausting when you just want a rest but LO won't go to sleep and stay asleep in the evening.
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To update, I’m sticking to the 2x cn and 1x long nap on an A time of 2.20. Holding for the long nap, trying some ST for one short one and BT. BT no rocking at all, just put her down half laying on my arm and stroke her. No rocking for naps either, can sometimes get her to sleep half on my arm but I still sometimes rock through the transition in the long nap.she is giving me one 4h stretch at night so that is lovely. Our problem now is nw every 30min from BT- 10pm. Can’t be OT because it happens when our day was textbook. So don’t know... she’s also super restless from 4am on and I have to stroke her on and off till it’s time to get up. Push the A time soon?
Also, how long should I stay once she’s asleep? 20min ?
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Ok so for eg today
WU 7.20am
S 9.37Am
WU 10.20am
S 12.40 - probably totally os because we were in a shopping center. This nap was in the sling
WU 13.10
S 15.05 at home
WU 17.00
BT 7.20 on the dot asleep
And now 30min later she’s up and I’ve left DD1 in the bath alone singing so I know she’s ok and hasn’t drowned while I go try get the baby back asleep.
What gives because I just don’t see where I’m going wrong.
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Our problem now is nw every 30min from BT- 10pm.
This can also be OS, unfortunately. Sometimes can be solids travelling through gut though that tends to start pretty close to starting solids at a new time of day. Its really hard to avoid OS with a 5yo around and dad coming home (should that happen ;) ). Have you tried a massage in her WD before bed? Carrier/sling and cuddles during that last A time? Is there anything in the BT routine that she perks up with? May be something to shift to another part of the day... DS found books OS so we read outside of BT routine instead.
If she's asleep, you should surely be able to leave now? Are you doing anything when you're staying with her? If so, gradually reduce that and get out of there! An extra 15-20mins not beside the baby may make your life a bit easier.
Might be a good time to think about pushing the first A time a tad to see if that helps with the restlessness in the early AM.
You're doing really well. You've made some great progress and that routine looks pretty good. Love the idea of getting DD1 to sing so you know she's ok. It probably feels awful asking her to do that though. Hugs xx
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Ok out of there as soon as she’s asleep, was wondering if there is a 20min jolt I should be looking out for or sth. When I go in I just replug, stroke her head and hold her hand. Unless she’s totally screaming, then I pick her up and cuddle.
So sth is up again
Yesterday:
WU 7.30
S9.45 DH put her to sleep
WU10.15 - this I don’t get, 30min???
S12.05
14.45wu
S16.45 had to pick DD1 up so a long A
WU 17.30
BT 19.30, asleep 19.40ish - woke 2 more times after
Now she’s had an ew that I couldn’t resettle
So what would you increase A to? 2.30 for a long nap and 2.10 on a short or only increase the morning A?
Our BT routine is bath every other day, I say goodbye to all, take her into her semi dark room. Sing a bit while I change her nappy and clothes. Feed, pick her up and cuddle a bit and then lay next to her stroking and holding her hand till she’s asleep. If the problem is os the I guess I just have to suck it up. Can’t have DD1 sitting in a corner quietly during the last A.
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WU 7.30S9.45 DH put her to sleepWU10.15 - this I don’t get, 30min???
Is DH A time different than with you? Not such good night sleep? Did you try to resettle?
2.30 for a long nap and 2.10 on a short or only increase the morning A?
Its probably reasonable to just do the morning A to start with. I suspect the rest will follow soon.
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I think he just hangs out with her in bed passing toys over. I gave her to him 30min before time to sleep. Asked him to start putting her down at A2.15 because he doesn’t put her to sleep on him but just laying next to her, so there is a fair bit of crying. He doesn’t resettle. To be happy honest it could just as well have been a 40min nap because he’s not great with the clock. He said it was 30min but I’m not totally convinced.
Did first A 2.25 (tried for 2.30 but she was out in a flash!) slept 1.50
Next A she barely made it to 2h. Was fussing, rubbing her eyes and here eyes were closing while sitting on my lap. Couldn’t even get her to her usual A of 2.20
It’s been 1.30h of S and counting.
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You're obviously doing well with her cues. She may not need the same A time through the whole day or she may just need more sleep today for some reason. Great nap though, on you or in crib?
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Hey There, I thought I’d check in with our progress and a quick question.
I 2 days ago I pushed her A from 2.30 to 2.45 because she was starting to be waaaay to happy at night. We are on one long nap of about 1.5-2h and two short ones of 30-40min. The short naps are on her own - she’s still not extending so the long one is still in my arms.
She’s better after BT, no WU every 30min and I can lay next to her stroking, no more rocking or holding for BT.
She’s still feeding every 3h at night - is this normal? We just started solids - just a teaspoon or two a day so that isn’t making a difference yet. Do you think it will as she statrts eating more?
Usually BT is 7.30-8pm, then she’s hungry 10.30-11, 2, 5. During the day she lasts 3.5h without feeds but nights it’s 3... I tried to just give her a dummy for one feed but she’s fall asleep then wake every 5min crying so she does look to be hungry. Goes right back to sleep for 3h after I’ve fed. I’d have thought that by now she’d be able to go at least one stretch of 4h at night? I mean she’s 6months old in a week.
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Its still normal, yes but you would be reasonable to expect one stretch of more than 3hr in there somewhere by now. Sometimes solids will mean LO sleeps a longer stretch, sometimes it means more NFs but I don't think it will mean more NFs for you.
What's your EAS? Wonder if you could get more milk into the day so she's not as hungry at night?
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I feed her when she wakes in the morning, if she’s not interested I try 1 h later. Then I try feed after every wake up to keep the routine with a top up before the long nap. Usually at BT she doesn’t have much because the last feed would have been 2h earlier. So the BT feed is small.
7.30wu
8.30e
10.45s
11.15wu e
13.30s e top up
15.00 wu E
17.30 s
18.00 wu E
20.00 bt E
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I’ve just realized she does do a 4h stretch but it’s from 5am to about 9am.
We had an amazing weekend, DD1 was visiting with grandma so we put DD2 into her bedroom. BT was 8pm and she had 2 NF or Friday at 1am and 5am, up for the day 7.45. Saturday BT 8pm, NF 2am and 5am up 7.40am. I have no idea what I did differently on those days. She woke on Saturday morning with a tooth.
She hadn’t slept this well since she hit 3.5months and her sleep problems started.
Sunday we picked up DD1 in the evening and DD2 was back in our room.
I put her down at 8 again but slept on the sofa in the living room in case it’s me waking her up when I come in. No luck, up at 10pm, then I don’t even know how many times on the night, long nw 4.40-6am, up for the day at 7. Another tooth pushed through.
And she’s now stopped taking the bottle so not only am I tired and frustrated but trapped as well because no one can babysit for me if they can’t feed her. Grrr
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Now you can she can do it, just have to work out how!
Is there some other way you could have her not in your room but with DD1 still at home to see if its the different room (is it on a different side of the house - temperature, noise?) or maybe its OS with DD1... did she nap better those days? or have longer A times?
Will she take the bottle from someone other than you? Lots of babies won't take it from mum when milk is on tap but will take it when mum's not there and someone else is offering. Its awful feeling so trapped :(
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I’ve been wracking my brain... we have two bedrooms right next to each other, same size, facing the same way, windows both cracked open so the temperature is the same. DD1 has black out blinds but it’s winter so dark by 5 and sunup at 7.30, the blinds don’t make a difference now. There is unfortunately no other place we can put her as the living room and kitchen are open plan.
Dd2s naps were pretty much the same during the weekend, we went shopping so she had one nap at home - the long one and two out and about - typical weekend.
I gave her avocado before bed but I have been doing that since and no go.
It’s like she’s been in a giant gs since 3.5 months!
I’ve tried putting her down and sleeping on the sofa to not wake her when I come to bed, yesterday I went to bed at 7pm and stayed with her but that made not difference. Will try put DD1 to bed with DH and DD2 in her room as an experiment next.
Er... should I start a new thread on nw? This one is getting embarrassingly long!
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You can if you want to. I'm happy to keep supporting you but if you would like some other eyes on the issue, a new thread may achieve that.
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I think you are supporting me and this confusing baby really well. Thank you for that!
We tried putting her in her sisters room and she slept better last night. BT 8pm,NF 12,3,6 up 7.30. So a 4h stretch. Will try again tonight. Then maybe switch around a few times to see if it actually makes a difference. If it does then I don’t know what. Put her in there with DD1? Not sure how that would work exactly.
Aaaahhh all I’m asking for is 2nf instead of 3. I feel like a new person if I can get 2x 4h stretches of sleep in. I actually wake without a headache and constantly snap at DD1.
Re the bottle. She was taking a bottle, then I got sick with tonsillitis for 2 weeks and then we went away for Christmas so she didn’t get the bottle for 3 weeks. Now she has forgotten how to use it! Chews on it instead of sucking. I’ve been giving her diluted apple juice to keep her regular and to avoid giving her bm that I waste time on pumping. She just chews out a few drops. Grrr my fault, totally dropped the balll on that. Will give it another week and try another type of bottle.
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How have you gone with a night or two in DD1's room? Its so odd she'll sleep better in there when the rooms are so similar.
I have no idea about putting a baby in with an older child, only have one child myself... I know my mum had my brothers all in one room - 4, 2 and newborn (with health issues and did wake a lot at night) and that worked alright I think but I was only 6 then, so possibly not the greatest memory for mum-level problems.
Hugs, you must be so tired. Would DH do a bottle feed in the night so you could get a better stretch of sleep?
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DH would be happy to do a bottle... if she’s take a bottle that’s is grrr. He did the first night shift with DD1 and did her first NF at 12-1am and I did the second when she woke at 5ish. I’m trying not to compare them because it just drives me mad!
We have done 3 nights in DD1s room. 2 nights pretty good, first stretch of 4h then 2 more NF every 3h. No help to me as I go to bed when she’s 3h into her first stretch but moving in the right direction at least.
Night 3 in her sisters room has been pants, up 2h after BT and very restless all night, 3or4 NF - not sure as I was half asleep, just shhhing, stroking and feeding on autopilot. Think that was tummy issues though, huge poop in the morning or she napped too much. I have been doing 1 long and 2 short naps but did 2 long yeasterday instead so ended up with 3.5 daytime sleep instead of 2.30-45min.
Will swap her back to our room for 3 days and see how things go.
I feel a bit ridiculous doing this lol.
Wil
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It is a tad unusual but I guess when we're grasping at straws, we do some odd things.
What's her EAS at the moment? Wondering if you could pack some more feeding into the day to see if that helps. Also thinking... does she take a dummy? If so, would you try to resettle her with a dummy when she first wakes to see if she's really hungry? Its almost sounding habitual now being every 3hr. Would you be game to try wake to sleep when you go to bed? Or a dreamfeed when you go to bed to see if you can shift the stretch to when you're asleep?
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Ok so today:
WU 7.35am E
9.00 breakfast half an egg yolk and a teaspoon of avocado - she swallowed 50 percent of that
E 9.30
S9.50 in my arms
WU 11.30 E
E 14.00
S 14.15 on her own
WU 15.00 E then we went out
S 17.30 in pram
WU 18.00
E 18.30
19.00 dinner - 2 teaspoonfuls of porridge with bm
19.30 bath
19.50 E (didn’t take much ofc)
20.00 S
Going through 3-2 so the two CN don’t have perfect A Times.
I try feed on WU and then top up before nap as we are on 2.45A and maybe she’ll sleep longer than a CN st some point - could happen, right 😜
Her nw are random, not at set times as BT is between 7.30-8pm depends on naps. Sometimes she’ll wake 2h after BT, other times 4h after.
Last night BT was 8.00pm, she woke at 9.30pm - I tried to feed her figuring she maybe didn’t have enough at BT but she didn’t take much. Then dummy and stroking for 40min while she drifted in and out of sleep, I finally gave up and just held her hand and tried to sleep myself .later I think she woke between 12-1am hunger and fed properly, then around 3.30 hungry again. At 6 she woke, tried dummy for 15-20min finally fed. She slept very restlessly till 7.35, had to keep stroking her on and off.
She’s back in our room tonight. I’ve tried A DF but that just shifts her next feed 3h later after that. If DH could do a df then I’d actually get a 4h chunk of sleep but still no go with the bottle. In offering her diluted apple juice at every meal but she just chews on the nipple and doesn’t suck.
Fingers x tonight is ok in our room.
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And it’s 20.30 and she’s up, doesn’t bode well for the rest of the night 😖
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In offering her diluted apple juice at every meal but she just chews on the nipple and doesn’t suck.
And she won't take a bottle from him either? Even if you're not there?
I think she may be OT at BT with those CNs. At 6 months old, even 3-2 gets down to ~3hr day sleep, so its reasonable to keep her with 3 naps if you're happy with the 2 CNs and a long nap. Are you going for 2 long naps?
I wonder if she's snacking and not taking in enough calories through the day - could you bring the topup BF closer to the main BF by offering straight after her solids, as her drink with that meal?
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Nope, won’t take a bottle from DH either. We keep trying though. Will maybe go get a faster flow one this week.
I can’t do 2 long naps as I pick DD2 up from nursery right when she’s be in the middle of long nap 2. Also I can sleep train one nap a day (the morning one in the week), hold her for the second nap so she’s not too OT and gets one long nap in, and last nap in pram on the way to get her sister. During weekends I shift this a bit and the first nap is long so we have the rest of the day free.
Will totally try a top up after solids today instead of bf before nap.
Last night ended up pretty good. Stayed up late with DH ( he was complaining he never has time with me because I’m alwYs going to be early) so went into the room 11.30, did a df and that gave me 4h if sleep till next feed at 3.30am, next one at 6.30am, up for the day 8.10am. And it was in our room.
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Glad you got a reasonable night. Hoping that a bit longer between topup and next milk feed might lead to her taking more and not needing as much through the night - could that a few days to start to see results. Fingers crossed for you.
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Ok so all experimenting done. I can’t top up after solids as she bites then! We have also moved to a 3hA. Moving her back and forth to her sisters room and it doesn’t really make a difference after all.
Still sucky nights mixed in with a good one from time to time. General rule is 3nf every 3h, not habitual because she doesn’t have a set bed time but I adjust it depending on wake up time. She does extend her nap not in my arms from time to time but I still have to be next to her to httj and shhhhh. Would you mind taking a look at our easy, not sure how to fit it in around kindergarten pick up. Ooohhh and she’s taking the bottle woohoo (with rooibos tea not milk but it’s progress) and I no longer rock.
Normal day:
WU 7.30 E
8.30 solids
E 10.20
S10.30
WU 12.00 e (when sleepy top up)
1.00 solids
E 2.50
S 3.00
WU 4.30 e (sleepy to up)
6.30 solids
E 7.20
Bed 7.30
Then Df 10.00pm, NF usually when she wakes at 1ish and 4ish I’ve tried extending with a dummy but no go.
What do I do on days I do preschool drop off in the morning so the day starts with a CN? Option 3 what do I do when I have to do preschool pick up and leave at 4-4.30? In the middle of what would be long nap number 2?
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You definitely feed her often enough! Have you tried reducing the amount of time you feed for one of those NFs to see if she will drop it?
That EAS looks pretty good.
Other days... hmmm. When is the morning CN on drop-off days?
Option 3 what do I do when I have to do preschool pick up and leave at 4-4.30? In the middle of what would be long nap number 2?
See if she'll transfer to the car? Or just be ready to leave, get her up at 4:15, put her in the car and she should be reasonably ok if its not multiple days running...
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I try feed as little as possible for the last NF as she’s hardly ever every hunger in the morning if I don’t. This kid is soooo sensitive to any kind of change. Yesterday she had a perfect easy, 33h A 2x naps of 1.5h then we went out for dinner and on her way home she fell asleep for literally 10min. Woke when we tried to move her, then it took 40min to get her back to sleep. She then woke every 30min till I just gave up and went to bed, up I don’t even know how many times because it’s all a fog, I fed her 3 maybe 4 times to just get her to sleep! All because of 10min in the car!
So 1 a week I have nursery drop off and she stays with DH and he does the nap. He just puts her to sleep and starts getting ready for work so as she doesn’t extend on her own, it’s 30-40min cn. Sometimes I try get out to meet a friend in the morning so it’s a cn in the pram on those days too. I tried. 2x cn then long nap and it was a disaster. So was thinking cn, long nap, cn, that routine would work with the afternoon nursery runs too or weekends when I struggle to sit with her for every nap. . But that doesn’t fit in the day. She doesn’t transfer unfortunately. It’s winter and I take the bus so I have to dress her in a snow suit. She only naps well at home in bed with me httj - so I’m in with her for 1h shhh patting or holding down her arms. In a pram she’ll do 30-40min. She also doesn’t nap more than 1.5h, ever.
WU8, A3h, cn 30min at 11, A 2.5h, 2 pm nap 1.5h, up at 3.30... then I can’t fit anther cn in.
Was thinking this:
WU 7.30am
S 10.30 nap1
WU 12.00
S 3.00 CN1
WU 3.30
S 5.30 CN2
WU 6.00
Bed time 8.00 but then our A times later in the day get super short and I have to rush back in the morning and ask DH not to put her down at all.
Just a thought, maybe the awful night was caused by solids? She had a bit of bread and a bit of dd1s turkey in batter. But blw so it’s not like she actually swallowed more than a few bites. Just grasping at straws.
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Just a thought, maybe the awful night was caused by solids? She had a bit of bread and a bit of dd1s turkey in batter. But blw so it’s not like she actually swallowed more than a few bites. Just grasping at straws.
Yes, its possible - early on, solids can cause issues at night with the sensation of solid food rather than milk going through the gut. I guess if she's actually swallowing only sometimes, that may be a cause of disruption. Usually if you don't offer dinner but do breakfast and lunch, that settles down.
Sounds like CN, long nap, CN would be ideal for you then. She's certainly pretty sensitive when it comes to sleep so maybe if you can keep things as similar as possible each day, she will start to settle into that routine. I hope so, for your sake!
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Just wondering with the sleep training, I don’t have to hold her any more, just lay next to her and hold her hand while stroking her head. Then I stay next to her and hold her arms or shush her when she gets restless. What’s next? I’m still stuck with her during naps and she’ll only do a cn if I’m not there. Even if I stay for most of the nap, she’ll wake 10min after I’ve left the room. Yesterday I stayed till 1,10min, she woke at 1.20. She doesn’t jolt at predictable times either, so that’s a bit irritating.
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Maybe just move away from her and just shush? Its really just gradually reducing your assistance.
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We’ve had two very restless nights, where she’s been awake for a while after the nfs. Bump in A time again? We are on 3h though and just moved a week ago. She barely makes it to 3h in the mornings and that would be my first go to increase. What do you think?
WU 7.50
S10.50
WU 12.20
S3.30 - also barely makes it, very tired and fussy
WU 5.00
BT 7.30 and asleep 7.50ish
Yesterday was the same but she slept 2h in the afternoon so was up at 6.30 and I did BT at 8.00
What should I push if she still isn’t 100 percent used to the new A time?
Looking at the sample easy plans, 3h is a very high A for her age.
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I don't think I'd push beyond 3hr at this point, especially with 2xCN and a long nap being part of the equation.
Is she restless all through the night or just in a part of the night?
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She’s doing it :)))
Don’t want to jinx things but I got some naps without touching or shushing. Definite progress
Nights are better in that she’ll feed and go right back to sleep now. Still far too many NF but I guess that’s how she is. She’s pretty little, 10th cent. Can that be why?
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Can be part of it, her stomach will be that bit smaller, yk?
Glad there's been some progress. At least now you know she *can*, even if she doesn't at times.
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Just an update.
We have kicked the short nap monster. I still stay with her for 40min if the first nap, in case. Can’t quite believe it. Yesterday I put her to sleep in her cot and she did two naps there of 1.5h wooohoo!
Nights are better too, we are having more and more where she has only 2 feeds. She still wakes for a 3 feed sometimes but it’s decreasing. DH has taken over one feed with ebm because I was on my last legs and just ratty all the time.
DD2 is now permanently in DD1s room and DD1 is in with us in the cot. Lucky we have a cot that is 140cm! DD2 sleeps in DD1s bed but with pillow barriers all around her. She sleep there on her own till the 4am feed, then I join her and we cosleeping. I’m nervous about this arrangement as she gets more mobile. Not too sure what to do. Nothing bigger than the cot where DD1 now sleeps fits in our room, so moving it is out. I’m thinking to put a mattress down on the floor in the kids room for the baby. Definitely safer. What do you think? Will she be ok without a cot if she’s on the floor?
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for all your patience and advice!
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I’m thinking to put a mattress down on the floor in the kids room for the baby. Definitely safer. What do you think? Will she be ok without a cot if she’s on the floor?
Yes, I had DS sleeping on a mattress on the floor when we went out at night a few times and that was ok. I personally would probably be more comfortable with a mattress on the floor than having her on a bed with pillows as you're right, once she's moving, she will be able to get over them and then could fall off. I'd probably be a bit cautious walking into the room because you won't know necessarily where she is on the floor if you don't have something to keep her on the mattress though.
Glad things are getting better with the sleep, it can be exhausting when these issues go on and on for months.