Help a newbie out...

[Shelbystx]

Hi!  I could use a little help.  We have 7.5 month old b/g twins.  We started BW about 2 weeks ago.  This post will focus on DS as he's the one we're having the most trouble with.  A little background: babies are small (5th percentile), were born at 37.5 weeks, and DS is a classic Spirited baby, breastfed, we started solids at 6 months and both are good eaters.  Before we started BW, the babies were on a very loose routine.  They were fed on demand but had regular naps with awake time being about 1.5-2 hrs.  DS napped well (3naps about 1.25 hours for 2 of them and 30-45 min for the third). But he woke frequently and regularly (every 1.5-3 hours) at night and woke very early in the morning.  We were feeding him twice a night, breast or bottle and rocking/bouncing/holding him back to sleep.  He also relied on his swing to sleep in day and night.  We have never tried nor do we believe in CC or CIO.  He is a flailer, kicker, thrasher who startles easily so we still keep him in his woombie.  Since starting BW he now sleeps in his crib, wakes a little less at night, only gets one feed a night, and we don't bounce/rock him back to sleep.  However, his naps are now very short, no longer than 30 min, we'd like to still cut back on the night waking, and he gets up at 5:30 am every day.  So a typical day for him looks like this:

5:30am - wake
5:30-700am - PUPD/shh pat, usually unsuccessfully and we give up and get him up at 7
700 - breastfeed
800 - breakfast
900-1100 - naptime which consists of 0-3 30min or shorter naps.  We use PUPD/shh/pat to try to extend each short nap.
1100 - BF
1200- lunch
100-300- naptime same as above.  Never sleeps more than 30 min at a time and sometimes the 2 hours go by and he hasn't napped at all while we've done PUPD/shh pat the whole time.  Shoot me.
300- BF
400- snack
500- 30 min catnap.  Yes he usually does this one.
530- BF, dinner
630- bedtime routine, BF
700- asleep
1030 or 1230 - first night waking, back to sleep with shh pat/ PUPD
230  - 2nd night waking, gets BFed or bottle, takes a full feed
430 - 3rd night waking, shh pat/PUPD
530- awake, shh pat PUPD til 7, rarely we can get him to go back to sleep around 630 for 30 min or so.

So my questions are: Should we be doing a dream feed?  How do I get him to sleep in til 7 or 630 at least?  How can I get him to nap longer?  Is it unrealistic at this age to hope he sleeps 7-7 with no waking and no feeding?  PUPD and shh pat work sometimes... Other times he just screams like a banshee anytime I even think about putting him down.  Am I doing it wrong?  Also, maybe I'm clueless but I can't tell the difference between a hungry cry, mantra, etc...  He's quite the screamer and if he wakes, he NEVER settles himself.  It just escalates to insane screeching.  The type you worry about what the neighbors must think.  Where do I start?!  Please help!  We are very sleep deprived and starting to loose faith! 

Thanks in advance,
Natasha

[jessmum46]

Hi Natasha, (((hugs))) on the rough time - and with twins!! - but also welcome

I think your issues might stem from the fact that the routine you're aiming for is too young - that routine is actually more appropriate to a 4 month old.  Most babies of your twins age would be having 3h awake time and two naps per day of 1.5-2h in length. It looks like he probably started out undertired, but then because he fought you he has ended up very OT from all the short or missed naps.

A typical day at this age might be
WU 7am
Nap 10-11.30
Nap 14.30-16.00
BT 19.00

Early wakings and having trouble settling for naps are classic signs of needing more A time . You might find this link helpful too How do I know its time to drop the cat nap and move to 2 naps?

What do you think?

[Shelbystx]

Wow.  I actually never considered this for him.  You could be right....  His twin sister is an angel baby and would adapt easily to a new 3h awake schedule.  Before your suggestion I was actually thinking she needed to have longer awake time and he needed SHORTER awake time.  They have SUCH different temperaments.  How on earth do I get him onto this schedule if he's so OT?  Do we just get up one day and start it?  I guess you're also saying he shouldn't need a dream feed, huh?  And we are so confused with PUPD.  The poor thing just screams like a banshee the entire time.  He screams when we PU, even louder when we PD... It feels like we are just getting him to finally fall asleep out of sheer exhaustion.  Then sometimes he only stays asleep for like 10 min!  Like I said before, we keep him in a woombie because he's a flailer and startles himself awake.  Could he be doing this because he's OT?  The paci does soothe him but he either can't seem to manipulate it well enough yet or he gets so upset (OT) that he can't do anything but screech and thrash about.  DD uses a paci like a pro and puts herself to sleep with it all the time.  Thanks again for your help.  I soooo appreciate it!!

[jessmum46]

Hi again am on my phone at the mo so can't write much - however I wanted to say most definitely keep the DF for now - you don't want hunger adding to the confusion will be back as soon as I can get onto a computer in the morning with some ideas about how to move toward the new routine x

[Shelbystx]

Ok thanks!

[jessmum46]

OK, with only one I would normally suggest that you APOP (accidentally parent on purpose - i.e. car, stroller etc) to get as much sleep into your OT baby as possible before starting a change in routine - however, since you have twins and have only very recently broken your dependence on props, I'm going to suggest actually that you just start moving towards the new routine for the two of them together and hope that the OT comes right for your DS as you go along.  Your DD should cope pretty well (fingers crossed!) with the change if she is angel personality.

What I would suggest is to increase their A time by 10-15 mins every 3-4 days to give them a chance to get used to being awake for longer.  As you do this, there will come a point (around 2h40 ish A time) where the day is too long for 2 naps, but too short for 3 naps.  The key to getting through this is early bedtime - so if you have the second nap finishing around 3/3.30pm, skip the catnap and have them in bed for the night by 6/6.30pm.  If you get a catnap, BT *may* just need to be a touch later than usual so they are tired enough to go down.

With your DS and PUPD - there are potentially several reasons why you are having such trouble with it.  OT is certainly a factor overall, but UT is a far bigger monster (in my opinion) and particularly a spirited baby will fight a nap so hard if they are UT.  As you move towards a more age appropriate routine, you may find that he actually becomes a lot easier to settle as his body is ready to sleep.  Spirited babies often find PUPD too stimulating as well - I would suggest that you try to keep the PU part to an absolute minimum for your DS, and perhaps just lay a hand on him and shh/use white noise instead of actually patting.  Do you use blackouts?  Spirited babies often need complete darkness to relax enough to sleep.

Please feel free to add any more questions if anything is unclear

[Shelbystx]

So helpful!  My question is regarding getting DS to settle. He has a tendency to really loose it and start screaming his head off when he is fighting the naps.  It becomes very difficult to get him back once he crosses over to the dark side.  We still rely on the paci for this.  We use it when we PU to calm him and then take it away once we PD.  He seems mostly ok with this but we are also rocking/bouncing when we PU to get the screaming to stop.  Also, we hold him for a minute or so after he has stopped screaming to be sure he is actually calm.  I know this is AP and may be confusing him.  I just don't know how else to calm him.  Should we keep doing it as needed and hopefully with the new routine, he'll stop the meltdowns?  Just laying a hand on him isnt going to cut it.  We do use white noise and the room is pretty dark, but not completely blacked out.  And what are your thoughts on still using the woombie at this age?  I hate it and would love to be rid of the thing but it seems to help him calm down as he is unable to thrash like a madman with it on.  Thanks again!

[jessmum46]

I would stick with settling him the way you have been doing, and I suspect it will become an awful lot easier once the routine is sorted. Do try not to hold him for too long though as that in itself may become a prop  

I've never used a woombie myself but generally I think the advice is that LOs who can roll shouldn't be swaddled for safety reasons.

[Shelbystx]

Ok, one more question.  If DS gets up at 5:00 and we do shh/PUPD til 6:30 (at which time we give up and get him up) but he's basically awake the whole time, is his wake time 5:00 or 6:30??  What time should I be putting him down for nap #1?  (This is what happened this morning).

[jessmum46]

It's tricky...does he doze at all in that time or is he fighting you all the way? If he's fighting, I'd say it all needs to count as A time really, but that will make things tricky with two I guess? If he dozes on and off, you could count it as half A time so 1h30 in crib = 45 mins of A time. Does that help?

[Shelbystx]

Yes, that helps immensely.  For his morning nap he slept for an entire hour uninterrupted!!  It's unprecedented!  He just went down for his afternoon nap so we'll see what happens...  I can't thank you enough.  It's really wonderful of you to take the time to help me.  Thank you again.

[jessmum46]

Yay for a better nap!!!