What to do with 7 months old rolling back and forth in the crib before sleep?

[Mariellamom]

Hi ladies,
I am working on my DD sleep issues (he-he, who is not? ) I think we've been pretty good on getting rid of all props. But I see that since birth until now her 'falling asleep' way changes almost every month. She started rolling in her  crib before falling asleep and sometimes it takes a long time to fall asleep and she goes way over her A-time. Or often she would stay on her tummy and play around until she hits her head of a wooden rail or will be perpendicular to the crib and there wont be any space to move. I am sure most of mamas know what I am talking about '-))
 So, to speed up the process I sometimes put my hand on her chest so that she wont be able to roll back an worth. I dont do it until she falls asleep, just until she is totally relaxed and is almost asleep. She doesn't see me. Sometimes when I take my hand off, she will just do the final turn and is asleep. When she wakes in the night I need to prevent her from rolling until she is asleep otherwise she is fully awaken and will start playing up to 40 min. I tired to just calm her with my hand and take it away but she immediately goes back to her rolling and sticking her head out of the crib to see if there is anything interesting. Am I creating a prop by doing this? Or it is kind of a modification of sh/pat and is not a prop? Or at this age I just should let her fall asleep 100% without anything ?

Thank you for your help!

[newkidontheblock]

Am I creating a prop by doing this? Or it is kind of a modification of sh/pat and is not a prop? Or at this age I just should let her fall asleep 100% without anything ?

I wouldn't worry too much about this. Yes, the ultimate goal is to do less and less to get them to sleep, and over time you can work on reducing the amount of time you keep your hand on her, maybe?

I hear you on the rolling around. DD is all over that crib! I was just wondering whether she rolls around/plays so much because she not that tired yet? Even the NWs, could it be UT? What is your routine looking like at the moment?

[Mariellamom]

Hi, thanks!
Oh well. I am a first time mom and my head is exploding from the changes that my DD is constantly expressing )
About slowly reducing sh/pat, I can't say that she is constant about it.  One day she will not go to sleep without my hand being on her back until she is asleep.  Another day she rolls in her crib and falls asleep in 5 min.  Last night she wouldn't calm down without seeing me which has not happened before and frustrated me to tears because I've been so crazy about cutting out all possible sleep associations.
I didn't think that her rolling in the crib could be an UT sign. I was thinking it is an OT sign and she is trying to settle but can't due to OT? hmm. Sometimes she is so tired that falls asleep right away, But most times does this rolling around thing.

 I have been trying to observe her for 7 months and for now I can say that she is not 'about consistency' that's for sure (she reminds me myself really, but isn't it too early to see that?
I've tried to compare our routine a month ago and  this week,  to see if she shows any similarity. ...no! Just that every day and almost every nap is different. Right now we are 3/2 transitioning. Its been a month.  She showed a very good day with two good naps but the next day it was again messed up and we had 45 min naps.  I posted my routine in Naps board but no reply yet. But by now it is different anyways. Lol )
I will post the last one:

WU 7:30
E 8:30.BF. solids later.
S 10:30
A 11:20, tried to resettle for 15 min,  gave up.  She was fussy all A time, I think OT?
E 11:40 BF
E 14:15 BF
S 14:30 ( unexpected diaper change was needed ,  that's why longer A time)
Up at 15:10. Resettle , asleep at 15:40
E 16:45.
Bath
E 19:10 very fussy at the breast,  arched her back and refused to eat but then was ok and ate for good 10 min again.
S 19:35
Up at 20:20. Sh pat. Asleep.
22:00 up. I tried to resettle to extend until DF. She didn't show any sings of hunger but wanted me to be near her crib.  I eventually fed her at 23:30 and she went to sleep.  (  normally I do DF at 22:30, yesterday just was my crazy way to observe why did she wake up. .....
2:30 feed
4:10 awake until 5:20 when DH took her to bed in another bedroom,  She slept until 7 am without a feed. Normally she eats around 5-6 am.
7 WU. All fussy and in a very bad mood. Probably lack of sleep. ?
So,  now I am thinking how on earth I will reduce those NW  if  she is exhausted next day and consequently next night again. ....
I am trying to follow Elizabeth Paintly advice about Gentle removal plan. i am reducing the minutes on the middle of the night feed and don't allow her to fall asleep also  in the night with the nipple in her mouth neither during the day.

 Thank you for your help!




 

[newkidontheblock]

Yes, now that I have seen the rest of your day, it is almost definitely OT. The tell tale signs for me are the wakings soon after bedtime. I must tell you though, that we had a similar experience with these wakings during the 3-2 transition, and I think that it is just a part of the process. It stopped in a week or 2, after I figured out the total amount of sleep that DD needed in the day & the right A to bed. In fact, even issues with the BT feed also indicate OT, with my DD at least.
Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep

This is also prime time for Separation Anxiety to kick in.
Separation Anxiety

I think the gradual withdrawal method might help in your situation. Copy/pasting for you to read through
The Gradual Withdrawal Method

The key to Gradual Withdrawal is to take tiny steps and make the changes very small at first so the child barely notices them.  Create a plan, broken into small steps of how you will reduce the parental dependence and work towards independence.  For example, patting on the back becomes lighter and lighter until the hand barely brushes the child's back, but is poised just above it.

To implement, follow your bedtime routine being certain that your child has sufficiently wound down from the day.  When wind down is completed, lay your child down, tuck them in and use a phrase they can associate with it's sleep time such as "time to go night-night you can find your blankie/pacifier/suck your thumb/etc. to help you fall asleep." Settle your child in their crib/bed and comfort as you normally would, then implement the first step in your plan.  Depending upon your child's temperament, you may be able to tackle more in less nights, or need to do less over the course of more nights.

The Gradual Withdrawal Method is intended for children that are reliant upon a parent's presence to calm them and help them settle for sleep. Examples are: sitting in the room, holding a child's hand, laying down with a child, patting to sleep, among others.  The idea is to simply reduce the reliance on parental presence gradually and in very small increments so the child continues to settle well and gains confidence in their ability to fall asleep independently.  The parent is there to assist the child in sleeping, but slowly reduces the dependence.  Examples might be: moving a chair closer and closer to the door until out of the room over the course of a few weeks, moving out a child's bed to an air mattress on the floor, then slowly move farther and farther towards the door over time, reducing the length of time patting though still staying with the child - then slowly working closer and closer towards the door.

This is also the best method for a child:
who's undergone controlled crying or crying it out as it helps to regain any trust that may have been broken
who gets very upset, sometimes to the point of vomiting
who does not settle after hours/days/weeks of walk in/walk out

This may also be a good method for a child who is not necessarily dependant on any one thing, but who needs some fundamental training to learn how to sleep independently.

[Mariellamom]

Wow, sorry, last two nights were just like the book says..... I was so exhausted that just couldn't fall back asleep after 5 am even when she finally was asleep...
I now understand where that piercing shriek comes from. She would not scream but use this strange voice either to self settle or to tell us she needs us... At least it sounds not that loud in the night
So, we are dealing with separation anxiety and I tried my best to play all sorts of peekaboo things since she was 5 months ( obviously didn't help) )
I will read more on this because still have questions but my brain is not function right now ;(
Thank you for your help so far!!!

[newkidontheblock]

SA is rough. I'm dreading it's inevitable return. Could your DH help you out with BT for a while? That's what I had to do. It would take me an hour and DH could do it in 3 minutes flat.

[Mariellamom]

Hi, my DH is so sweet by helping in the night! I feel guilty though when he has to work the next day. But we understand that most of the days I can't rest when her naps are so short ; And I am not able to fall asleep that quick unfortunately ;(((((((((((
So, I am amazed at the knowledge of people here and BW of course It seems like my DD is reading the books but 'copying' only the problems not the solutions )
About being OT and fussing during the BT feed, I was thinking that all of a sudden she got that reflux that many moms are dealing with here, or my milk smelled or something else. But after you told it is OT, I  realised what this behaviour was about...!  Thank you!


You are right about SA! I was hoping we will somehow miss that one )) Does it last long usually? Of course each child is different. I have been trying to do kind of a GW during the naps and NW. But It seems that mostly she has problems when I try to resettle her during the nap and after NW. She might stay up for a long time if we don't do anything. If I resettle her after a short nap it might take me up to an hour just with a firm hand on her back and the same at night. Once the hand is up, her head is up. So, probably really tiny steps will be needed in this case.

I am thinking how can I change her being OT at bedtime? If she has two short naps I should reduce A time my 15 min or already by 30 min before the BT? Or in this 3/2 transition I just have to deal with this and it is inevitable until she will get used to the new nap schedule? She seems to get a good nap (1h,15min) after 3 hours A time or more.
If she wakes up in the night so many times and stays up for a long time, it means she is really OT in the morning? consequently A time is shorter by 15 min and the next A time is also shorter if the nap was short?
Before this SA started she was mostly up only for 2 night feeds and sometime for DF. Ive been trying to reduce the middle night feed but wondering if it is making things worse? My DH is eagerly trying to extend her NF to 4 hours stretch but it almost doesnt work now...
Also, I cant figure out how to make her WU times the same....After such nights should I wake her up? Ideally I was aiming for 7:30am. But sometimes she is up at 6am, or at 5am to eat and goes back to sleep until 8am. Should I follow her rhythm?

I am not sure if my all questions should be on this board, let me know if I have to 'move' to the different board
Thanks so much for your help!
 

[newkidontheblock]

Well, I've moved your post to the General Sleep board as it seemed a better fit. OT buildup is inevitable during these nap transitions but you can get ahead of it by making sure the naps she does have are good and by bringing bedtime forward to compensate. Then you gradually move it back as she adjusts.

Do you think, perhaps, that she is ready for a longer A during the day? Does she always need a resettle? I honestly would advise you not to keep trying to resettle for an hour for naps. Is she waking up happy? What are the night wakings like?

[Mariellamom]

Thanks! Hope to get some answers from that board also )
I was thinking she can have longer A time but this morning we've got 1h20 min after 2:55 A time and I consider it as a very good nap for her
Will be trying for longer A time still. She is almost 8 months. .
Yesterday we had a short nap in the morning+ 1,5 hrs in the afternoon, and 3hrs A time before BT but she still kept on waking up before midnight and after 6 times. So I assume that if she doesn't have two solid naps during the day she will be OT anyways in spite of the last nap was good.
I try to resettle only after short naps. She is happy when I pick her up after resettling doesn't work. But after 15 min of playing she becomes fussy and I blame it on a lack of sleep. The NW before midnight mostly she is crying eyes closed rolling back and forth trying to sleep. But if we don't react, she will escalate and won't calm down as fast.  After midnight it seems she is up to find us. Makes sure we are there and falls asleep 3-4 times for 5-10 min. Sometimes wide awake playing in her crib.
Oh. I wish I could keep her naps longer. But so far she has been totally unpredictable about them. When I read how much they should sleep at this age with the night sleep, I laugh or cry because we are far from that especially with more NW now.
Thanks for your help!

[newkidontheblock]

I was thinking she can have longer A time but this morning we've got 1h20 min after 2:55 A time and I consider it as a very good nap for her

Yes that's a good nap but when you find the right A, it cab lead to you consistently getting long naps, so that's a thought.

Regarding yesterday, there are a few things to keep in mind. Firstly, how did she spend those 3 hours before bed. Secondly, if she went to sleep just fine but still kept waking, then it is OT but not necessarily from that day. Accumulated OT can cause this too. A few days of good naps and it should work itself out. Thirdly, is she in any discomfort with teething perhaps?

[Mariellamom]

you mean that if we have only one good nap but 40 min the second one,  I still need to extend her A time to get two good naps ?
Three hours before bed were crazy overstimulated. So I guess I had to calm her down earlier based on her A time and how active it was?
No vivid signs of teething. But it looks like it is on and off.

[newkidontheblock]

you mean that if we have only one good nap but 40 min the second one,  I still need to extend her A time to get two good naps ?

Basically what I am saying is, don't decide an A time is the right one unless you consistently get long naps on that time. 2.55 is still low. It would be 3hrs + by now, I think.

Three hours before bed were crazy overstimulated. So I guess I had to calm her down earlier based on her A time and how active it was?

She definitely will be OT & OS in that case:) At least now you know and you can ensure low key time before bed

[Mariellamom]

Ok will be trying for longer A time! Didn't realize about low key A time before bed! Thanks so much for your help!