17 month old EW, please help!

[alymom]

Hello everyone

I'm new here and would desperately need help with my 17,5 month old daughter who has been having WU anywhere between 5-6am for more than two months.

She had very rough time transfering to one nap (actually we're still not nicely there). The last time when we had constantly  normal 6.30-7 am WU her routine was:
WU 6.30-7
S 11.15 for 1-2.5h
If short nap, then a 15-30min CN around 4-4,5 hrs later
BT 18-19, depending the nap lenght and if CN or not
This was months ago until it started to be hit or miss whether she took the CN or not and that's when she also started to wake up anything after 5am and we've been stuck with early start since then.

Her night sleep is between 10-11.5h (used to be 12h), sometimes she has lots of NW and sometimes she's having good night of 11-11.5h of sleep without any NW (first time in her life) but is still waking early because had EBT. She doesn't tack on her night sleep at the moment (used to), so EBT is EW. Her total sleep in 24h has been 11.5-12.5h (used to be 13.5-14h).

I tried set nap and BT but in a week she was a mess, waking up every 30-60min at night and having short naps because her days got too long.

Then I went by A time, no matter it gave early nap and SEBT, she then had 12 h nights and decent naps but we were stuck in EW/EBT.

I've tried some 2 nap days in some 5am WU days to catch up if she has been too OT but don't really get any catching up, she either don't take both naps or then doesn't go down at BT. So doesn't work anymore.

Now I'm trying set nap at 12 and BT after 4.5-5h after waking up from nap (more than that and she starts to have more NW) depending the morning WU time and nap lenght and by that way trying to keep her day in max 12h and to prevent her to get more OT.

She's textbook/spirited and sensitive to OT and when too OT she starts to short nap (no chance to resettle then) and have lot of NW.
Also since month ago it started to took her an hour to settle in BT. I've tried shorter and longer A times before BT but no difference. I even have tried to APOP her to sleep faster but anyway it takes an hour 

The last days have been:

BT 19
NW 22.15
NW 23.40
NW 3

WU 5.35 (doesn't resettle)
S 11.55-12.45 (doesn't resettle)
BT 18 (we were out and didn't get home before so was longer day)
NW 22.50
NW 23.40
NW 3.30

EWU 4.30
Able to APOP back to sleep from 5.30-6.45
S 11.50-13.40 (resettle in 1.10h mark)
BT 18.40
NW 1.15

WU 5.45 (doesn't resettle)
S 11.55- 13 (doesn't resettle)
BT 17.45 (took forever to fall asleep)
NW 23.40

Today:
WU 4.40
APOP back to sleep 5.10-6.35 (wakes up briefly at 5.20 and at 6)

I'd really appreciate some advice am I doing the right thing at all and what could be that kind of routine I should aim for? Should I try set BT again or keep it flexible?

[*Becky*]

bumping x

[alymom]

Thanks  for bumping

Now I've done a set nap at 12 for a week and don't see much difference in WU time (maybe we have had little bit more 5.30-6am starts than before). Nap lenght is pretty often just an hour. Anyway, yesterday and today we got longer nap   

Yesterday was:
WU 5.55 (from 6pm BT, so good lenght night)
S 11.50-13.40 (resettle in 1h and 1.5h mark)
BT 18.30 (didn't fall asleep before)
NW 19.30 (sleeps on/off 30min)
NW 1
NW 3.30-4 (on/off sleeping)

WU 5.45 (doesn't resettle)
S 11.50-14.40 (resettle in 40min, 1h, 1.5h mark)

What to do with BT today?

Thanks if someone would have any idea....

[anna*]

Hi there, sorry your post got missed.

EWs are hard work. What time bedtime did you go for today?

[alymom]

She fell asleep at 7pm, let's see how the night goes and when we'll have wake up tomorrow

[anna*]

Fingers crossed!

[alymom]

Not a good night 

NW 22.50
NW 3.30
NW 4
NW 4.20 restless sleeping
EWU 5.45 able to APOP back to sleep but wakes up every 5-10min crying
WU 6.15 still crying and sleepy but doesn't go back to sleep

Was the worst night for awhile. Too long day yesterday? But on the other hand I tried to get her to sleep earlier but she didn't fall asleep until 7pm 

Please tell me what am I missing and how to get rid of these early mornings? I'm starting to be dead, today has been up since 3.30 

[anna*]

So what happens at these NWs? What does she need to resettle? How is the teeth situation?

[alymom]

Last nights wakings were short, she cried, I went to pat her back few times and she was back to sleep. After 4.20 she was rolling over a lot and very restless. When she wakes up after 5am the only way to get her maybe back to sleep is either to take her in bed with you (bad I know) or hold her and she may sleep little bit more. In the early hours she never ss but if you leave her, she just wakes up more and is then impossible to get back to sleep. If the waking up is earlier at night she can ss.

She used to be pretty independent sleeper but the last months she has been so OT sometimes that she just can't put herself to sleep and we've done lot of APOPing just to get her to sleep. Specially naps are bad because I've been pushing her to arrive 12, on BT she goes to sleep with less help, but it takes an hour nowadays 

She has been teething her molars and eye teeths whole this time (now all of them should be through) but the teething started already almost a moth before these EWs and meds haven't done any difference.

[anna*]

It sounds like an independent sleep problem if all sheneeds is a few pats to go back over. I would definitely concentrate on independent sleep for a few days, use WIWO rather than patting her. You said you had a few later WUs and longer naps in the last week of working with a set nap so I would continue with that, but maybe you could do the nap at 11.30 if you feel like she's battling OT?

Really really do medicate if she's teething canines and molars. They are brutal. My little girl sleeps really well but is getting her canines now and they are properly messing things up.

[alymom]

Thanks for the answer 

Yes, I know she needs to get to independent sleep and on evenings we've been doing GW (you think WIWO would be better?). Have been doing that couple of weeks but don't see any progress. She does fall asleep eventually but still takes an hour (some days even more) and that's both with more or less A time before bed. On early morning wake ups we also have tried to let her ss but she never does, she just ends up screaming and I can't let her shout like that at 5am waking up the whole building (she's very loud) and she will continue even over an hour if you let her. But we'll try to work more with this matter.

So you think I should go back to earlier nap no matter that's where we had it when all this EW began? I've been doing some earlier nap days to let her catch up if she starts to look too OT but should I set it to 11.30?
What should I do with BT? Now it has been anywhere between 5.30-6.30pm mostly, should I set it too or keep it flexible?

I've been giving meds from time to time but as said they don't make any difference. She has been teething for 3 months so can't give meds all the time...I guess...

And now she refuses her nap, has been up since 6.15, was put to bed 11.45 and she has just been messing around almost 2hrs...ufff. Normally she's off within 15min

Appreciate your help 

[anna*]

Yes, I know she needs to get to independent sleep and on evenings we've been doing GW (you think WIWO would be better?).

WIWO is generally recommended for previously independent sleepers. There is more crying but then it tends to have quicker results too. I would definitely go there if you're  not seeing results aftera couple of weeks of GW. My daughter is only a little bit older and she definitely takes longer to settle if I am in the room - she wants to stay awake to keep checking I'm still there!

So you think I should go back to earlier nap no matter that's where we had it when all this EW began? I've been doing some earlier nap days to let her catch up if she starts to look too OT but should I set it to 11.30?

I really don't know... if you feel like 12noon is perhaps starting to work (you mentioned later mornings etc) maybe set it there for another week? It's just, you know if you do set naps etc and it's not getting you anywhere, something's got to change. Unfortunatey there's no easy answers with EW and you're probably heading for the 18 month sleep regression too.

What should I do with BT? Now it has been anywhere between 5.30-6.30pm mostly, should I set it too or keep it flexible?

I think I'd set it later. If she's waking at 5am after a 6pm bedtime, that's really not an EW at all. I'd do bedtime 6.15-6.45, I think. Yes she will be OT but hopefully she will learn that these are the opportunities for sleep

I've been giving meds from time to time but as said they don't make any difference. She has been teething for 3 months so can't give meds all the time...I guess...

Fair enough. People have different views. I think, if a baby is in pain for 3 months, you give meds for 3 months. Of course you don't want to medicate unnecessarily but on the other hand you can't expect a baby who is in pain to self-soothe

And now she refuses her nap, has been up since 6.15, was put to bed 11.45 and she has just been messing around almost 2hrs...ufff. Normally she's off within 15min

Has she always been low/high/average sleep needs would you say? Playing instead of sleeping does sound like classic regression territory.

[alymom]

I'll try if we get better results with WIWO.
Maybe I'll try the noon nap one more week once OT doesn't look too bad at the moment and if the wake up doesn't keep improving then try to bring it earlier. And also make the BT little bit later.

Oh no, that's what I was afraid that we hit the 18month regression before sorting out this mess... Today we had no nap, couldn't even APOP a short CN. We even took her out in a stroller but she just kept singing and chatting. Did SEBT, it's gonna be interesting night after a day without any nap 

I always have thought she's in the lower side of sleep needs, she started to refuse her afternoon nap at 9-10months and have been having some one nap days since she was 12 months. But now when I just don't seem to get her totally in a one nap routine (we've been struggling with that for months) I've started to wonder that maybe I've got it wrong and she actually is more average/high SN. I just don't have any idea anymore    Anyway, I'd say she needs at least 13h/24h or she starts to get fussy.

Thanks a lot