11 month old still waking 4-5 times a night...tweaking needed?

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

My DD just turned 11 months and I'm still waking up 4-5 times a night on a "good" night and a lot more if she's showing signs of teething. I think the last time she STTN was at 6 months or so but since then she'll wake up and scream and scream until I get her which I don't wait very long because I'm against CIO.

The thing is she knows how to fall asleep on her own and had been doing it for naps and BT since she was 2 months old. Even at night when I do go in and nurse her, I'll put her down awake and she'll go back without a fuss so I know it's not that she doesn't know how to self soothe and fall asleep from an awake state.

With DD1, I remember I didn't take the advice of non BWer mommies who said to not feed her or go to her at night and just like I read, one day she just stopped needing to nurse in the night when she was 11 months. However, this is still going on with DD2 and I'm so exhausted during the day that I'm starting to feel like my health is being compromised from waking up several times a night and not getting a full night of rest.

Here's her current EASY schedule:

6:30/7:00 Wake

10:00-11:00 Nap (She usually naps between 50 minutes to an hour which works out so that I can shorten her A time before next nap)

2:00-3:15 Nap (she used to wake at 3:30 giving her a full 1.5 hours but now she's been waking earlier from Nap 2 so I'm wondering if I'm not giving her enough a time in between naps.)

6:30/7 BT

Here are my questions:

1) Do you think the nwings are from a schedule issue or just wanting to be at the breast?

2) Should I not feed her in the middle of the night? I did so with DD1 and she just stopped one day when she didn't need it anymore.

3) Do I maybe need more A time before her second nap. Is that perhaps why she is waking after only an hour and 15 nap or so? I try to put her down no later than 2 only because i have DD1 who naps too so it gives me some Y time when I have them nap at the same time.

4) Does she sound like she is on an OT cycle? I always feel like I'm so exhausted how could she not be exhausted from being up many times a night like I and then only napping 2 hours during the day?

5) Do I need to start pushing out her AM nap and maybe she's showing signs of being ready to transition to 1?

Thanks for helping me think out the options. I feel like some tweaking is in order but I'm not quite sure where to start.

Hugs,
Christine

[Tao]

Bump

[Erin M]

Hi there!

My thinking is you may have a combination of schedule and feeding issues.  Definitely some OT there too, her naps aren't long enough to be restorative at her age.

I think the 2-1 is a likely culprit.  Do you have any schedule issues, etc to work around?  If not, I would cut one of your naps way down to CN length (20-30 minutes) and try to get a good long one for the other one.  You might shorten that first one since it's already short -- but on the other hand, some people like to have the certainly of a good long first nap in case their LOs refuse the shortened second one.  Have you ever seen the FAQ on the 2-1 switch -- lots more info in there: 10/ 11mo sleep gone wonky? Read this first!   -- you may just need some longer A time in there and a long nap (instead of 2 medium length ones) should get you that.

Next question -- is she nursing every time she wakes up?  Out of all those wakings, how often do you nurse?  Does she take full feeds, or just getting  herself back to sleep?  My kids were mostly the same as your dd1, basically just gave up that last night feeding when they were ready, but if she's feeding several times in the night, she probably needs some help to get rid of the feeds. 

How's her eating during the day?  How many milk feeds?  Solids?

 

[Tao]

Hi Erin,

Thank you for helping me out! I don't really have any scheduling issues with the exception that I was trying to cat nap my a.m. nap so that DD2 could long nap with DD1 for the p.m. nap so I could get some me time but that's not a MUST. I can totally be flexible. I have been noticing that she's been waking earlier too. It used to be that despite her incessant NWings she would wake at 7 a.m. and now it's been 6:30 these past few days and when she wakes she wants me to get her right away as opposed to playing in her bed etc.

Today, her day was:

6:30 Wake
10-11:30 Nap (I usually wake her after an hour but she just seemed so tired in the a.m. taht I just let her long nap.)
2:30-3:30 Nap (She short napped here which I expected since she had an unexpectedly long a.m. nap)
6:30 BT

we'll see what the night brings.

In your opinion, does one method (catnap a.m. vs. catnap p.m.) lend itself better to the transition to 1 nap when she is ready to do that. Like if I let her sleep longer in the a.m. and just slowly pushed out her a.m. nap would that make for a smoother transition to her 1 nap as opposed to capping her a.m. nap?

I think you are right about needing longer A time even after a shortened 1 hour nap. I have yet to try a 3.5 hour A time after a 1 hour nap (either that) or I could shorten it all the way to 45 minute a.m. nap and a 3 hour A time...I'll play with that. I'm just trying to figure out first if capping the a.m. or the p.m. works better with transitioning to the 1 nap eventually..

Now regarding night times. Yes at night she takes full feeds on both breasts. To be honest, when she woke in the middle of the night, I've never not nursed her. I've just always put her on since birth. She doesn't feed to sleep though. In fact, my DH will get her for me, I'll nurse her and I notice she'll take a full feed on one side, pop herself off and then a full feed on the other side. Then DH puts her back into bed fully awake. Sometimes she'll roll around for a few minutes and then fall asleep back on her own. I did notice last night I think she woke one less time because right before bed, I had a lot of milk from not nursing her in the afternoon, so she didn't wake up at 11 like she usually does.

Her current eat schedule is as follows:

6:30 Wake and nurse both sides
8:30 Pureed homemade baby food approximately 4 oz
11:00 Wake and nurse both sides
12:30 Pureed homemade baby food approximately 4 oz
3:30 Wake and nurse both sides
5:30 Dinner time of pureed baby food approximately 8 oz (I double the quantity for dinner)
7:00 Quick nurse on one side before bed

Then she'll wake around 9:30 ish, 1 ish and sometimes 4 ish...

Actually i've been feeding her these portions for a while now so maybe I'm not giving her enough solids? I also notice during the day she doesn't nurse like she does at night because sister is up and playing and she gets distracted easily. In fact, she'll stay on one side maybe for a few minutes and then she'll want to sit up and watch sister play. It's hard to get her to stay on for the same length of time as at night because of the distraction. This may be why she is making up the feeds at night. This makes sense now. What do you suggest I do?

Thanks a million! The thought of getting some normal sleep back into my life is encouraging!

[Erin M]

In your opinion, does one method (catnap a.m. vs. catnap p.m.) lend itself better to the transition to 1 nap when she is ready to do that. Like if I let her sleep longer in the a.m. and just slowly pushed out her a.m. nap would that make for a smoother transition to her 1 nap as opposed to capping her a.m. nap?

Some of this depends on your LO and you -- some people go for the long AM nap because that way they know they've got a good one in case the PM one doesn't work out.  Also, then you can keep extending the AM A time until you just run out of time for that second nap.  On the other hand, my dd1 was one that would never take a second nap if she had anywhere near a decent length first one so we'd do the super short first one and get a decent PM one -- I think we we got to a 15-20 minute AM one, I just started skipping it and went straight to 1. 

As for the night feeds, I'd be surprised if she needed to eat that much at night.  Upping her portions during the day is a good idea, and if she takes less and night she might take more during the day on the breast.  You could try one of two things -- you could either start nursing less at night, like only giving one side and see if she'll settle after that.  You can pick a time that you won't feed her before (like 2 AM or so, midway through the night) and get her back to sleep however you can before that.  Given her age, I think you might also have success if you get yourself ready for a few rough nights and just drop the feeds all together.  Usually people will just settle their LOs by whatever means necessary (rocking, etc) -- most people I know who have done that say that they have a few awful nights, but things get better pretty quickly.  It's just something that if you start it, you need to be prepared to see it through. 

[Tao]

Hi Erin,

Thanks for the advice! Right now I think I'm in a horrible bout of OTness. Yesterday, I put her down at her 10:00 a.m. nap and she literally slept for 15 minutes! Normally she does 45-1 hr but definitely not 15 minutes so I'm thinking I maybe really need to start pushing out her a.m. nap. Anyhow, I put her down 3 hours after that thinking she'd have a nice long nap but instead she slept for another 45 minutes! So, for the entire day she slept 1 hour! Yikes! Her night sleep was amazingly okay and actually she only woke twice as opposed to her usual 4 times a night but then she woke fairly early (as to be expected).

Today:

6:30/7 Wake (i think?)
10:15-11:15 (I should have waken her after 45 minutes but I felt like I should let her sleep in from the obvious OT from day before)
2:15 ( I tried to put her down at this time and she cried and cried. When I went in to hold her a bit she fell asleep on me but then when I put her down she cried and cried. This is very unlike her. She never cries when I put her down and usually happily puts herself to sleep by playing around. I'm thinking teeth might be an issue here too. So I got her and just tried again at 4)
4:00 She's asleep now and I won't let her sleep too long or BT will be thrown off I'm sure..

Can you help me with some of the principles on how to get LOs caught up on OTness? I'm thinking I should get rid of OT before I tackle the night feedings...

Thanks so MUCH!

[Tao]

Forgot to ask one more question:

So, tomorrow, being that she'll be OT from today, during her a.m. nap should I cap her a.m. nap so that she'll have a long p.m. nap or just let her sleep as I tried to do today? Thanks!

[Erin M]

OK, I *think* you should try and stretch that AM A time as much as possible and try to get a good first nap in her and let her sleep as long as she likes.  If you get anything over 1.5 hours, I'd try for a PM nap 3-4 hours later (will she fall asleep anywhere for sure -- the car maybe?) and keep it short, 30 minutes or so, just to get her to bedtime.  I think she's telling you that 45 minutes is too long to get 2 naps out of her -- and 3 hours is definitely not enough A time.  She'll probably be somewhat cranky, but I'd try to push it the best you can, even with her being somewhat OT.  If you have some way to get her back to sleep if she wakes early (driving, walking, rocking, etc) just go ahead and do it to catch up on the OT.  The idea is to get her caught up, however you can.  On the flip side, if you really can't get her to go very long in the morning, let her nap for about 20 minutes, then wake her up (as hard as that is) and try to get her to go a good 3 (maybe 4? based on your post) hours before putting her down again.  She really seems like she's trying to up those A times so it seems to me like one of your naps is going to be super short.  I might try meds for teeth too if you think it might be an issue. 

[Clemmly]

Hi, I have the same issues. I stopped feeding little one through the night cold turkey. It was a week of hell. Actually that was six weeks ago and it is still hell, she wakes every hour and a half. I have had some better nights here and there and she isn't waking because she is hungry, because it isn't her hunger cry. When she wakes I have to lay her down again and put my hand on her until she is asleep. I'm so so tired too. Let me know if you have a break through x claire

[Tao]

Hi Clemmly,

I remembered reading this from Kellymom.com with my DD1 and I just reread it, which helped me to remember that sleeping through the night is a milestone like anything else. I remember with DD1, I really didn't believe it but I kept it up as tired as I was and one day right before she turned 1, she just slept through the night. It is taking DD2 longer and I am exhausted but maybe your LO is still needing to be with you. I know with DD1, I worked, so she tried to makeup for our time away from each other during the evenings (which was hard)..

Here is a link that might help you as it helped me...

http://kellymom.com/parenting/nighttime/weaning-night/

The other thing I did notice with the help of Erin is I noticed if I allowed her second nap to be a longer one rather than just a cat nap, if she didn't have enough activity time before bed, she would wake up a lot more. Right now she has a 45 minute nap in the a.m., followed by 3 hour A time in between and then she'll usually sleep 1.5 hours in the p.m., wake for 3-3.5 hours before bed. However, I think I need a longer stretch before bed because last night she was up every 2 hours. I am working on switching her naps to a long one in the a.m. and a short one in the p.m. so she'll be tired enough to actually sleep more at night.

Does this make sense Erin? Could it be that she's waking a lot at night because she's just getting too much from her p.m. nap?

I'll keep you posted Clemmy if anything amazing happens Hang in there!

[Erin M]

Could it be that she's waking a lot at night because she's just getting too much from her p.m. nap?

Definitely -- or you could just need to keep pushing that first A time -- eventually you'll just run out of time completely for the second nap and you'll just have one. 

And yes, sleeping through the night is very much a developmental milestone that all babies reach at different times -- my 3 reached it at varying times and especially with ds I never thought it was going to come -- but it does, in time.  Hang in there! 

[Clemmly]

Thank you for your support- like labor I just wish someone could magically give me a time frame so I could pace myself and cope better. That fact that it will happen is very comforting

[Erin M]

You're right, that would make it so much easier if you just had a definite point where you could say "now they'll sleep through"
Hang in there!

[Tao]

Haha, I like your comparison to labor. You are SO right! Doesn't it help to know that they will eventually get there? Honestly, too, I remember with DD1, all my friends were doing CIO and sharing the book Babywise with me and I was SO close to jumping on the bandwagon with the exception that in my heart it just felt "wrong"... They all thought I was crazy for still getting up with her at night and nursing, and I felt crazy at times too, ha! However, I remember distinctly the day my own internal clock woke me up at a time when she normally woke and she just didn't wake, nor did she wake three hours after that. It was amazing. I've also read that breastfed babies sometimes take longer to STTN. I'm not sure if that's true or not but I've experienced that with both my BF babies...

Let's get through it together Thanks Erin for your support! I'm going to try to push out her AM nap. I guess I was being selfish because i was putting down DD1 at the same p.m. nap time as DD2 so I got to have a good 1.5 hour time to myself. That's why I was holding onto long PM naps as much as possible; however, your idea of having a long AM that just pushes later and later until we go down to 1 nap totally makes sense. That seems to transition better better to 1 nap than bringing hte PM nap forward. Am I right?

I feel like things become "smooth sailing" once they are down to 1 nap...

[Erin M]

hat seems to transition better better to 1 nap than bringing hte PM nap forward. Am I right?

Yes, it tends to work better that way for most.    I totally get wanting the time to yourself too -- I remember when my girls were small I had about 3 weeks where I got them napping at the same time and it was heaven!  (And then dd1 had to go and stop napping on me   ). 

Things were so much better for us with all of mine when we got down to 1 nap, I hope it work that way for you too. 

I'm glad you listened to your instincts too and not to people pushing CIO and Babywise -- I've stayed away from it with all 3 of mine and while there have been some rough nights to get through, I've never regretted it for a minute.