Author Topic: does w2s work on ot toddlers? (Read 4035 times)

Aishi · « **on:** June 07, 2014, 22:00:59 pm »

Have been doing it for ds for a few days now but hes so ot from 4.45 wu today im wondering if its worth me getting up at 4 again if it won't work...

Khalam's Mama · « **Reply #1 on:** June 07, 2014, 22:05:07 pm »

I would say yes. What has been happening since you started? Is he sleeping in at all? I might be tempted to try 3.45 if he is waking at. 445.

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2014, 22:54:03 pm »

^^ Agree

Aishi · « **Reply #3 on:** June 14, 2014, 14:40:35 pm »

How long are u supp to do w2s for? I was giving ds piriton for allergies in motn for about 4 nights at 3.30 and using it as w2s. Wu was consistently 6.45/7 for first time EVER. I didn't give meds or w2s last night thinking 4 days was enough for medicating. He woke at 5.45

So do I need to do w2s tonight again and for how many more days? Or should I medicate in motn? How bad is it to do that continuously? :-/

Khalam's Mama · « **Reply #4 on:** June 14, 2014, 20:16:18 pm »

A week is usually the recommended time to keep at it. Are the meds prescribed? What does it say on the box about how many days to use it? Maybe check with the pharmacy if you are concerned.

Aishi · « **Reply #5 on:** June 14, 2014, 21:08:43 pm »

Thanks KM i will check with pharmacy.

Does this mean i should ddo w2s for 7 days starting tonight again?

Khalam's Mama · « **Reply #6 on:** June 14, 2014, 21:21:55 pm »

Hopefully another 4 night's should be enough.

Aishi · « **Reply #7 on:** June 15, 2014, 05:44:07 am »

I did w2s at 3.30. He woke at 5.25 but did go back to sleep till 6.15 so I guess that's progress?

Khalam's Mama · « **Reply #8 on:** June 15, 2014, 06:45:09 am »

Yes I would agree

creations · « **Reply #9 on:** June 15, 2014, 10:13:37 am »

Piriton can cause drowsiness so there's a chance that the later wake ups were due to that as well as the W2S.
Hope the W2S sleep works for you, it looks promising, FX. I didn't have any luck with it for EW but it was a life saver for moving to 1 nap to extend his nap.

Aishi · « **Reply #10 on:** June 15, 2014, 10:56:57 am »

Thats what I'm worried about creations- obviously the piriton can't ba a long term solution! Lol

creations · « **Reply #11 on:** June 15, 2014, 17:16:33 pm »

Not for the EW no but if he needs it for allergies then that's different - did you see the other thread on antihistamine? There is a non-drowsy recommendation there.

Khalam's Mama · « **Reply #12 on:** June 15, 2014, 19:33:19 pm »

What does the rest of his day look like. Do you think you need to tweak that now you are getting later wake ups?

Aishi · « **Reply #13 on:** June 15, 2014, 19:39:11 pm »

I did see the other thread creations- that's what got me thinking. I'll look into the other meds.

He's only had a few later WUS but BT has been later too at 7.30 so its not that he's getting more sleep its just that his day has shifted later iykwim? I *think* he will only do 11.5h nights MAX.

Khalam's Mama · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2014, 19:47:59 pm »

Does he nap? I was thinking maybe you would need to take the opportunity to move the nap later if he wakes any later and then later bt to maintain to later wu.

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 15, 2014, 19:50:35 pm »

11.5 h is good for his age.
We are averaging 11 h now, but anything happens (change of the weather becoming hot, excitement for something he has to do the day after, dev leap...) and his nights become shorter. It could have been a few shorter nights for some reason and that they were masked by the drug effect?
Or his sleep needs might have dropped to 11 h as average and you would need to move bt to 7.30 to maitain the wu.

Aishi · « **Reply #16 on:** June 15, 2014, 20:46:14 pm »

Aye your prob right barbara. He's not napping anymore and the long cu nights are well and truly gone lol. I can live with 11h nights as long as wu isn't before 6!

AMJ · « **Reply #17 on:** June 16, 2014, 03:44:48 am »

Sorry ladies to interrupt your conversation but I've been reading and noticed that Creations mentioned that w2s worked for extending the nap during 2-1 transition. At what time did you do it? How did you do it? Did you just stir yor LO or actually woken them up? In so afraid to wake my DD and have her not go back to S.

Thanks so much!

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 16, 2014, 06:15:55 am »

Quote from: Aishi on June 15, 2014, 20:46:14 pm

Aye your prob right barbara. He's not napping anymore and the long cu nights are well and truly gone lol. I can live with 11h nights as long as wu isn't before 6!

I would keep bt at 7.30 then. For us 11 h nights means that there are some nights of 11 h, some of 10.5 (and even 10), some of 11.5 (and even 12). I have learned that it is worth looking at the amount slept over one week and not what happens every single night (the same for eating!). So if you want au after 6, I would put bt at 7.30.
Then, of course, you can try w2s to get rid of ew.

Aishi · « **Reply #19 on:** June 16, 2014, 07:10:27 am »

I agree Barbara 7.30 BT does seem to be the way to go for now. Having said that he fell asleep in the car yesterday at 6.20 (12h day) and sttn till 6.20!!! I did w2s too but I'm thinking that perhaps he had that ew couple of days ago after four 13h days because of ot so a shorter day would have been better for the fifth day iykwim?

I guess I'll just have to see how the next few days ago...

AMJ- you rouse li just enough to stir, not fully wake. What works for me is usually to give any meds in a syringe an hour before ew. And if they dont need meds i would just give a little bit of water in syringe. I found that with the traditional method of gently shaking or rubbing cheek etc I would always wake them! Hth!

AMJ · « **Reply #20 on:** June 16, 2014, 07:37:44 am »

Thanks Aishi, what about nap? When do you do it at nap time?

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 16, 2014, 07:45:43 am »

Quote from: Aishi on June 16, 2014, 07:10:27 am

I agree Barbara 7.30 BT does seem to be the way to go for now. Having said that he fell asleep in the car yesterday at 6.20 (12h day) and sttn till 6.20!!! I did w2s too but I'm thinking that perhaps he had that ew couple of days ago after four 13h days because of ot so a shorter day would have been better for the fifth day iykwim?

Similarly happened to F these days. After 3-4 shorter nights (10.5 h) and longer days (13.5 h) yesterday I put him down at the normal bt and he slept 12 h straight! And tonight he slept 11.5 h after a 12.20 h day (I use fixed bt, so yesterday was a shorted day due to later wu). I guess he will be back to normal (for him) night length tonight. But this is what I meant: my DS, at least, has an average of night length, but some nights are shorter and some are longer.
I have no experience with w2s, I only used it with F as a baby, and I remember Tracy recommended it for 3 nights. But it was for babies not toddlers or preschoolers.

Aishi · « **Reply #22 on:** June 23, 2014, 07:53:28 am »

Ok, so this is what I think is happening. Ds starts waking at 5 cos he's ot from long days and set bt at 7 and it becomes a habitual wutime. I did w2s for over a week and wu improved to 6.30/7, ds gets ot and wu has been 5.45 ish....

Logs

Sun 6.30-6.20 (fell asleep in car)
Mon 6.20-7.30 (pd 7)
Tues 7-7.30
Wed 6.30-7.30
Thur 6.30-7
Fri 6.05-7
Sat 5.45-6.15 did ebt so he could cu
Sun 5.50-8.50 (he had a car nap 6.10-6.30 so didn't fall asleep till late)
Mon 5.45

I was thinking 6 pm BT so he can cu as clearly a later BT doesn't improve wu

and then push bt fwd gradually. wdyt?

Also can anyone else see same pattern of ot in logs or am I reading it wrong? Any thoughts on a plan to minimise ot?

Tia x

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 23, 2014, 12:38:18 pm »

TBH it seems a good amount of sleep for his age (apart the Sun night when he had the nap). He is averaging 11+ h nights, which at 4 yo is good for me, with also some nights of 11.5 and 12 h, which for us are exceptions. When he ew is because he was put to bed earlier, as he did 11 h night anyway, so this cannot be classified as ew really. I don't know. What works for us is fixed bt (plus-minus 30 mins, depending on wu), and letting him self-regulate. Of course, in this way we have some 10-10.5 h nights, but then they are compensated by 11.5-12 h nights. It helps that our bt is 9 pm, so a 10.5 h night means 7.30 wu, which I can survive with...

Aishi · « **Reply #24 on:** June 23, 2014, 21:29:01 pm »

I wish he would self regulate Barbara! But if he was doing that he wouldn't get ot would he? I seem to get ot behaviour creeping in when his nights shorten to less than 11hrs... He was in bed and asleep by 6 so he must have been tired otherwise he chatters before sleeping. I guess I'll have to see what night brings...

Does anyone else have to shorten day mid week to minimise ot? I'm thinking of keeping BT set to 7.30 (as 11h is his average) but throwing in a 12h day after 3-4 days....wdyt?

Khalam's Mama · « **Reply #25 on:** June 23, 2014, 22:50:33 pm »

I agree 11 hrs is really probably about what you can hope for at 4yo. I would stick with 730pm bt and avoid those car naps as they really mess up the day.
posted before reading that last post. I would personally avoid early bt as those short days seem to get you no more sleep but just push wu earlier.

Aishi · « **Reply #26 on:** June 24, 2014, 07:52:15 am »

Well he did 6-6 but with a new at 2.15- he couldn't settle WO me staying with him. Thing is I've been here before since he dropped nap in Jan. I do set BT of 7/7.30 and after one ew he gets so ot with the set bt that we get ew of 5 for weeks

I don't how to break this ot cycle he gets into

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 24, 2014, 08:15:15 am »

But in the log that you posted in your first post, on which I was thinking when I answer, you never really had ew before that car nap. Night was always at least 11 h (well, except a 10.75 h but it is nearly 11, so it is the normal variability) with some 12 and 11.5h nights. The night before that nap was actually pretty long, with almost 12 h (wu was early only because bt was early), so of course the night after a long night and a late car nap was ut. Am I missing something?
I think he has catched up with that 12 h night anyway now, I would move bt at the normal time now and go from there. I also would avoif ebt, as it brings you back to early ew so it will be difficult to move bt back.

I also tink that some ew are unavoidable. I mean, we had a 10 h night tonight as F woke earlier, and the reason was (I think) he is going to a trip with preschool today in a park with the train so he was excited. At the end of the day he will be shattered, I know (and he will come with me at friends' to watch the match anyway

) but after few short nights (sometimes even a week or two actually

) he generally catches up. But his night is variable, as well as it is for us, as adults.

Aishi · « **Reply #28 on:** June 24, 2014, 08:56:57 am »

You're right barbara in the logs i wrote he hasnt't had any ew but prior to last week he was waking up at 5/ 5.30 every day. It became a habitual waking after he started waking at that time from ot so I did w2s to break that habit and he had that great week of 11h nights. And then an ew again. Does that make more sense? I'm worried that the ew is going to come back if he gets ot again. We had several weeks of 5.30am WUS

He was in a great mood this morning so I think the cu worked. I will do normal BT today but what I'm wondering is it worth having an ebt after a few days as i see nights shortening so he diesnt get ot?

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #29 on:** June 24, 2014, 18:53:44 pm »

Aishi my DS can not handle the usual 7 pm bt no matter what I do now the naps gone (since Xmas time) when he cu we push and in a week he's lost sleep

so for now he's on a 6.30 ish bt and his gro clocks set at 6.45/7am (just moved it out as we're going to try another gentle nudge)

I guess what I'm saying is maybe his natural sleep rhythms ATM is earlier to bed, and sleeping in is tough for him. 6am is a -common time for kids to wake really, I know its early for us but if its ongoing to happen anyway and going down earlier means an extra 1/2-1 hr of sleep I'd go with it....

Aishi · « **Reply #30 on:** June 24, 2014, 19:02:51 pm »

I agree Sara ds's bodyclock has always been set at 6/6.30 but my dilemma is that if he's averaging 11h at night that's 7/7.30 BT but that doesn't seem to suit him either :-/ looks like a lose lose scenario doesn't it?

Aishi · « **Reply #31 on:** June 26, 2014, 06:27:53 am »

Well I *think* we're back on track after a couple of 6.30 bts. He woke at 7.05 today so hopefully I can back to 7.30 BT today. I think he really is waking earlier after every few days because of ot...I shouldn't be surprised since dd is also incredibly sensitive to ot but i find it hard to trust my MI with him since I came to BW late with him....

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #32 on:** June 26, 2014, 08:21:34 am »

Glad things are settling. I find Z is similar with OT sensitivities. Even now once a wk or so he needs an EBT (like5.30-6) to catch up from his week or it gets too much and we get OT creeping EW yk?

Aishi · « **Reply #33 on:** June 26, 2014, 09:24:04 am »

I'm glad you said that Sara! I thought ds should have gotten used to nnds by now since he dropped his nap in Jan but he still seems to get ot so I think I'll do the sane as you and have an ebt once a week if he seems to be struggling...

Aishi · « **Reply #34 on:** July 06, 2014, 06:16:21 am »

Well that didn't last long. Wu has gradually creeped earlier and for last two days has been 5 (BT 7/7.30). I'm beyond frustrated with him.

I had been varying BT to keep ot at bay. I figured I would try set BT at 7.30 again. How long does it take for body clock to set? Anyone else have any ideas?

ZacsMumme · « **Reply #35 on:** July 07, 2014, 08:11:47 am »

Mmmm sorry Hun. I put Z on 6.30-6.30 as our typical day because a later bt means same or earlier WU. We then do a cu day once a week or so when he seems to get cumulated OT ie last night bt was 6 and he slept in till 7.30

creations · « **Reply #36 on:** July 08, 2014, 10:11:19 am »

I've had success moving my DS's body clock but it's risky!
Basically instead of putting him to bed when I wanted his BT to be I moved it later, rapidly, up to a full hour later later than the planned BT, let the OT hit and once he'd done a long catch up night shifted BT a little earlier then a little earlier to get back to the right time. It sounds a bit back to front but I had no choice at clock change as he would not move his morning WU time regardless of when he was put to bed (like Sara is saying about Z). If I tried to make BT later by just a small amount (15 mins like a normal clock change routine over a week or two) he just lost sleep every single night because the 15 min increments at BT never adjusted morning WU. Over a period of weeks he'd get worse and worse with OT behaviour, it seemed so unkind on him. Increasing rapidly means the OT crash comes sooner so in the long run less sleep is lost. I actually shifted DS 2 hrs later to achieve the 1 hr clock change. So if your DS wants to be in bed 6.30-5.30 (ish) you'd need to push BT as late as 8.30pm to force his body clock into a new rhythm, once he slept 8.30-7.30 you could move BT to 8.15, then 8.00, then 7.45 then 7.30 and FX you'd see a 6.30am WU.

It worked here and now he's doing a blissful 7pm-7am night with a 30 min lay in at the weekend (I shouldn't brag too much he still has anxiety dreams with every skill development!). We sometimes do EBT at 6.30 or 6.45 as pre-school and certain other activities wear him out, it's getting more rare to do EBT though.

Aishi · « **Reply #37 on:** July 13, 2014, 06:24:48 am »

Thanks ladies. I wasn't ignoring you. We had a few prop issues that had developed since I last posted which I've been working on and have resolved tg!

His BT is set at 7.15/7.30 and wu has been 7 onwards with a few nws I've been using GW on. Wu WS 6.30 today but only one nw tho at 5 which he went back to sleep which is a first!

So thanks for your help and sticking with me!

Aishi · « **Reply #38 on:** July 19, 2014, 06:25:32 am »

Every time I post success he's back to 5.30 wus. His BT is still set at 7.30 and wu is usually between 5-5.30. So if I was to use your method creations what time would bt be tonight? He woke at 5.40.

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #39 on:** July 19, 2014, 07:38:26 am »

When did thes ew start? My ds has streches of 1-2 weeks of 10-10.5 h nights that are developmental, and nothing I do changes the situation. Then, he goes back to 11 h after a while, without I do anything. I usually anticipate bt of 15 mins in these periods, but anything more and wu is even earlier. I also noticed that nigths are averaging a little less of 11 h now, at 4y 7 mo.
Just a though.

Aishi · « **Reply #40 on:** July 19, 2014, 08:02:05 am »

Recently? Well since before June....weve had the odd few days of later wus but pretty much 5/5.30 wus. And historically he's been ew since 2.5yo with periods of later wus has been the norm here.

I don't mind 11h nights even Barbara but were not even close to that. He's doing 9.5-10h nights and he's only just turned 4 in June..

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #41 on:** July 19, 2014, 21:07:01 pm »

Ok, I thought that he started 10 h again, after he was doing 11-11.5 h for some weeks. Sorry, I have misunderstood.

Aishi · « **Reply #42 on:** July 19, 2014, 21:38:11 pm »

No need to be sorry hon

creations · « **Reply #43 on:** July 20, 2014, 22:22:59 pm »

Quote from: Aishi on July 19, 2014, 06:25:32 am

Every time I post success he's back to 5.30 wus. His BT is still set at 7.30 and wu is usually between 5-5.30. So if I was to use your method creations what time would bt be tonight? He woke at 5.40.

Do you think 9.5 - 10hrs is his full night??
The thing with shifting BT to change his body clock is that it doesn't give a longer night, just moves the night yk?

Aishi · « **Reply #44 on:** July 21, 2014, 06:21:59 am »

I hope not! He gets ot on days longer than 13h so if 9.5-10h is all he needs at night no wonder he's always ot!

He did 7.30-6 bu at least sttn

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 21, 2014, 22:13:03 pm »

I really don't know Aishi. I would be tempted to move bt to 8-8.30, so at least if he does 10 h night you have an after 6 wu... You cannot make him sleep, but YOU can sleep at least.

Aishi · « **Reply #46 on:** July 22, 2014, 06:20:04 am »

I know what you mean Barbara but he's ot with ew and with a later BT he will still wake early cos he's ot yk?

Having said that he was asleep for 7.15 last night, woke at 5.15 to ask if I would sit near his bed (I told him in a little bit but didn't go) and he woke at 7 ::O ::O (I am bribing him with chocolate for going back to sleep lol)

I think I'll push BT to 7.30 today and keep my fingers crossed!

barbaraz78 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 22, 2014, 08:47:42 am »

Great! From what you say it is more a cass of long nights alternating with short nights, am I wrong? What I think is that if he sleep needs are around 11 h, then if he makes 11.5-12 h nights he will need 10-10.5 h nights to compensate. So the average is still 11. This is the case of F.
Then, the only way to have consistency would be wake him up at 11-11.15 h if he still sleeps and keep the day 13 h. In this way, hopefully, he will adjust with 11 h nights consistently. With F any day shorter than 13 h, after a 11-12 h night, would bring nights shorter than 11 h.

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Author Topic: does w2s work on ot toddlers? (Read 4035 times)