10 mth old won't sleep through night

[2ndTimeAround]

My LO is 10 months and won't sleep through the night w/o nursing.  She sleeps in bed with me since birth.  When she wakes she usually only nurses for 2 mins and is back to sleep.  I've tried the CIO method in her crib and after 1.5 hrs of crying we gave up.  Naps are the same issue.  I don't think she is hungry but is soothing herself to sleep.  This night waking happens about 5 times a night.  I am getting ready to go back to work (night shift) and I need her in her crib.  I've read 'The no-cry sleep solution' and it sounded good in theory but when we tried it, a big fail again.  I'm not sure where we are going wrong.  We use comforting words like 'shhh' and play soft lullaby music.  We try walking her in our arms when she is awake but not fully awake to get her back to sleep w/o nursing but she fully wakes up and screams/cries until I nurse her or give her a bottle.  All my research is so contradicting: she'll out grow it or you need to nip it in the butt.  HELP, what am I doing wrong?

[ZacsMumme]

HUGS - You arent doing anything wrong.
Wha has happened is that your LO has become relient on a prop (your breast) to get back to sleep. Same with the co-sleeping. This is what your LO is used to and taking it away instantly is like someone taking away your comfort item, or something you need to sleep ie a pillow.

I am glad you gave up on CIO, and at BW we dont support leaving a baby to cry. All this does is break their trust in you.

Have a read of the following and let me know what you think. Given your LO has never slept independently I think the Gradual Withdraw or Gentle Removal Plan (adapted from Pantlys book) would work best. This is NOT a quick fix, but it does work and you will make progress.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=67676.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=104192.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0 - Note WI/WO is for 12mths+ You would be looking at PU/PD below as an alternative
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=209637.0

Sorry I know this is a lot of info, but I think you ned to be informed before making a decision as it will be hard work.
I am going to see if I can get some more eyes on this for you, hopefully someone who has BTDT can offer some good advice

[Fiver]

Will she go to sleep in her crib with you in the room at bedtime?  If so, this could be a place to start.  We only ever co-slept with DD after she woke up for a NF and the time she woke gradually moved closer to the morning until I then said that if she had a NW after a particular time (say 4am) that she could then come in, have some milk (or not) and then co-sleep.  Over time that also gradually moved back and 99.7% of the time now (don't want to tempt fate! ) stays in her cot all night.

It's not a very BW method, but is a gentle way of losing the co-sleep/BF prop.

She's also got a muslin cloth which she holds on to and her thumb to suck as comfort items, so we always make sure she's got them for going to sleep too.

[Shiv52]

{{{hugs}}}

How does she go to sleep for naps and bedtime?  Do you feed her to sleep?

[cuckoochick]

Hi,
I just thought I'd pop by and relate my experiences. We were stuck in a BFing to sleep prop for a loooooong time- well mainly for BT and NWs (naps I could get her down by rocking her to sleep).
To get her to settle at BT I ended up swapping one prop for another really. I BFed until drowsy and then rocked her to sleep as I figured this would be an easier prop for me to break. I had tried Pantley's Gentle Removal Plan but we just didn't get far with it. DD needed the breast in her mouth and I would have to keep her there for ages and trying to unlatch was a nightmare as she'd wake and then we had to go through the whole process again and again and again. So at BT I rocked her to sleep and put her down asleep in the crib.

 Like Amanda, we mainly co-slept from when C woke up for her NF and then she came into bed with us. When we needed to get her into her own bedroom, I moved a mattress into her room and from the first NW I went and slept on the mattress in her room. We were still feeding to sleep for NWs at that point too so I would feed and then sleep next to her.

At 6.5mos things started to get really bad and C was waking so much in the night that we just couldn't go on so at that point I decided that enough was enough and we needed to sleep train. I posted here and got some great advice to use a mixture of shh/pat and to comfort in the crib so we started from the first nap where I patted in the crib, shhhhed and said comforting words. PU made her far more angry when we PD so we just went for all comforting in the crib. It really didn't go as badly as we thought and she settled within about 20minutes and we patted all the way to sleep. Over the course of the next few days we reduced the patting to just a hand on her bum, then to just sitting by the crib and shhhing before making our way out of the door and leaving her to settle herself to sleep fully.
 
The plan for NWs was for DH to do any before 2am and then I would do 1 NF and then DH to do any after. However, as if by some miracle, DD started STTN from the very day that we started sleep training so we didn't have to do any of that. Sounds unbelievable I know and I realise that we are very lucky that our DD accepted the changes we made so readily.

We'd had a pretty consistent WD routine for months beforehand and this is now a big sleep cue for DD- blackout blind down, a lullaby then white noise. She also loves her loveys. Initially this was a blanket comforter with a teddy bear's head but now she also has a teddy in there with her. At MIL's she sleeps with her favourite hard-bodied doll!!!  Now she doesn't have white noise, we just put 20minutes of lullabies on but she's out within 5-10mins at most.

Here to hold your hand!

[2ndTimeAround]

Wow all, I really feel supported:)  I just read all your posts so I will try to respond to everyone.  My DD as we speak is in her crib.  We moved our rocker recliner into her room and thought I'd try nursing her while rocking and gently place her into her crib while tucking a lovie in her hands.  She went into her crib at 8:30pm and it's now 10:20pm and she woke 3 times where we had to pick her up and rock her back to sleep.  We are trying this tonight with fingers crossed:)

@ZacsMumme we have tried the gentle removal plan and it works for only a short time and she ends up waking fully.  I am curious tho, what is the pick up-put down idea?

@Shiv52 She is the same for naps and BT.  I have to nurse her to sleep.  Sometimes she won't nap at all:(

@Fiver I have never tried her in my room with her crib.  We moved her crib out of our room and were really hoping to avoid moving it back in.

@cuckoochick  Wow congrats on nipping it in the butt.  Do you think there would be anything wrong with DD coming in to co-sleep for her early morning feeding and staying there until morning or will that set us back?

I wish I could fast forward and have this all behind me (not to wish time away).  I find this so confusing.  My 10 yr old DS never had this problem.  Can she really be hungry through the night?  Should we be feeding her?  Tonight when she was crying in her crib we went down to check on her and she was sitting up in her crib.  My DH picked her up and she instantly went back to sleep.  Was this the right thing to do?  What should we do when she is stirring in her crib?  She doesn't like to be patted or shhh'd.  She wants to be p/u'd.  How do I know when she is fully awake or asleep awake.

Many thnx for all the support.  I just joined and I feel so at home!

Cheers:)

[Fiver]

Sorry, I didn't mean for her crib to be in your room.  I meant crib in her own room.  Does she go to sleep in her crib with you in her room with her?

[cuckoochick]

@cuckoochick  Wow congrats on nipping it in the butt.  Do you think there would be anything wrong with DD coming in to co-sleep for her early morning feeding and staying there until morning or will that set us back?

I'd say if you're trying to break the co-sleeping prop then it would be confusing to bring her into your bed after a certain time but not before, iykwim?

As for how you can settle her in the cot, is she crying or just fussing? You need to find what works for your LO. Maybe stroking her hair or just a hand on the back? Or if she will be calmed just by your presence in the room then I'd sit by the cot and shhh.

As for the feeds, how many is she having a night? Some 10mos might still have 1 NF. I certainly wouldn't be feeding at every NW if you are going to work towards independent sleep.

From your description of those NWs in the early evening it sounds like there is some OT at play as well as your DD not being able to self-settle. Would you post your routine so we can have a look too?

[2ndTimeAround]

Update:  We have been putting her in her room in her crib to sleep for 1.5 days.  This includes naps.  I NTS for all naps and for her bedtime feed.  I then place her in her crib, asleep.  When she wakes she usually stands up and we pick her up, rock her in our arms, say Shhh and it's sleepy time and lay her back in her crib and usually she is asleep again.  I think maybe we were trying to do too much all at once.  Break her of the co-sleeping, NTS, sleep in her own crib in her own room and did I mention she is cutting her top teeth?  Any thoughts on this?  Here is her schedule usually.

7:30am wake for day
play
9:00am breakfast
play
10:00am BF in my bed until asleep
11:00am (if lucky, sometimes earlier) awake
play
12:00pm lunch
play
2:00pm BF in my bed until asleep
2:30pm awake
play
3:00pm snack
play
4:30-5:00pm supper
play
7:00pm bath, cereal
play (nothing to rowdy)
8:00pm NTS for night lay her on sofa until my bedtime
10:00pm in bed with me nurse at her leisure sometimes every hour sometimes she'll go longer

She seems to sleep the longest stretch between 5:00am and 7:30am.

She used to use a paci but now doesn't like it.  She doesn't like having her head rubbed or her back.  She's not much for patting either. 

Since last night when we put her in her crib she wakes frequently which means we pick her up alot.  It seems like if we don't pick her up she cries loudly and will wake herself up more.  I just don't know what to tackle first.

[cuckoochick]

Hi lovely, I get what you are saying about trying to do too much all at once as I know it is scary and you want to do things gently for your LO and that is fine but you will eventually need to tackle all of these props but we can do that at a slower pace. So it seems like for now, you want to concentrate on getting her sleeping in her crib? Is that right?

As for your routine, I'd say there is definitely some OT at play as that is a long stretch to BT after a 30min nap (5.5hrs A time). At this age the 2:1 can be tricky and most LOs will be moving towards either a long AM/short PM nap or vice versa. I think you may be stuck in an UT/OT loop and need a bit of a routine tweak. Has your LO ever napped well? At this age my LO was doing a 2hr nap in the AM and a short PM nap of about 30mins followed by a short A to bed. Can you make BT earlier? Bringing that forward would cut down on that OT and hopefully cut down on those NWs in the early evening.

I'm on my phone at the moment and it's tricky to post links but I'll go and ask for some eyes for you. I think you need to push your first A time a little bit to get a longer nap.

Another thing that may help is establishing a BT routine where LO goes to sleep upstairs in bed at night after bath etc so that she knows it's BT and her sleep will be more restful than being downstairs.

Let me know what you think and I'll ask for routine help for you?

[2ndTimeAround]

I think to start I would like her sleeping in her crib as it is safer for her.  She has never napped well.  Today for instance, she was up at 8am after a long night, ate breakfast at 9 and tried to put her down for a nap at 10am.  She was yawning and rubbing her eyes but she wanted no part of it.  So it's 11:40am and still no nap.  I don't know if she would go to bed earlier or not.  It's always been 8pm.  What do you mean by push her A time a bit longer to get a longer nap? (bare with me, I knew to this:))  The last couple nights we have been trying to put her to sleep in her room by feeding her in her room and placing her in her crib when
she is asleep.  We are trying not to let her fall asleep anywhere but there.  I would someone to help me plan a routine!  I am just at a loss.

[cuckoochick]

Yes- sleeping in the crib sounds like a good move. It will be a more restful sleep for all of you but I think you will still have issues with NWs if your LO can't self-settle and is relying on being BF to sleep but we can work on that when you are ready.

As regards your routine, I think your first A time (Awake time) from waking up in the morning to Nap 1 is a little short. I know that you said your LO was rubbing her eyes and yawning after 2 hours but this is very short for her age. Typical A times for 8-10 month olds are 3-4hours so I think she simply wasn't tired enough to go to sleep when you tried to put her down. She may have been yawning because she was bored and needed a change of activity. Cues can become tricky to read at this age.

There are some sample routines you can look at here that may help you:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164031.0
At this age most LOs are heading towards dropping to one nap and this can be a lengthy process and sleep can be a little wonky so it might take a wee bit of figuring out amongst us.
Do you think your LO would prefer a longer nap in the morning or in the afternoon? Do you have other childcare/routine needs that you need to work around, e.g. school drop-offs as we might need to factor that in?

We need to try and figure out what your DD's preferred A time is so that she is tired enough to have a nap of 1.5-2hrs as this is a restorative sleep. So for a start we could work towards a 3-3.5hr A time so if she wakes at 7:30am that would make her first nap at roughly 10:30 or 11amish. Anyway, check out those sample routines on the link and get back to me.

[2ndTimeAround]

So what I gather from that thread is I may be trying to get her to nap too early and should postpone her nap by .5hr to 1hr?  What I don't understand is whether or not I omit the pm nap?  DD isn't a cranky baby.  I always said she wasn't one of those babies that required alot of naps but maybe that's where we are going wrong b/c she doesn't typically sleep good at night. 

Last night she was put in her crib asleep but woke many times, stood up in her crib and cried until we picked her up.  When we picked her up she fell right back to sleep (deep sleep or so I thought) and we tried to lay her back in her crib.  Instantly she cried.  I tried using key words and shh/pat her little behind but no way would DD have it.  At one point it took 16x's to pu/pd for her to stay asleep in her crib.  But it didn't last long.  In fact this went on all night until 4:30 when DH gave her a bottle and she then wanted to be awake so he put her in bed with me where I nursed her 2x's between 5:00am and 7:00am and she woke at 7:30am for the day. What should we do when DD doesn't want to be put in her crib eventho she seems asleep?

We just can't figure out what to do.  I know we need routine but DH is exhausted, I'm exhausted and he doesn't want to give up and neither do I but I feel so let down.

I do have a DS whose 10 yrs old and he gets home from school @ 3pm but I don't need to consider that when it comes to DD's naps.   I find DD is more likely to except a morning nap over an afternoon nap.  Truthfully I would like a long AM nap but would settle for 2 shorter naps (AM/PM) if need be. 

Routine help is much appreciated!!!

[cuckoochick]

Yep, exactly. She's simply not tired enough to sleep a good nap as she's not been awake enough. So if she's up at 7:30am that would mean putting her down for a nap around 10:30-11am ish (we need to figure out her preferred A time as she's not in a set routine from what you posted). We'd hope that nap was 1.5-2hrs long and then she'd do a similar A time providing that nap was good to the afternoon nap which may be a bit shorter. So your day would look like this:
Wake 7:30am
Nap 1  10:30-12/12:30 or 11-12:30/1 (as I said we need to know how long your DD's A time should be without her being UT (undertired) or OT (overtired)
Wake
Nap 2 3:30-4:30 or 4:00-5ish
Wake
Bed 8pmish as she's had a shorter nap.

Our first step has to be to try to work out how to get a longer first nap so, tomorrow depending upon what time your DD wakes, try to put her down sometime between 3 and 3.5hrs after she wakes and we'll see what kind of nap you get and take it from there. Let me know how you get on

[2ndTimeAround]

Last night was the third night of trying my DD in her crib. FAILURE:(

Last night my DD was put in her crib asleep after I nursed her in her room.  She went in her crib at 8:30 pm.  At 10pm she started crying and did not want to be put back into her crib even tho she seemed asleep when we put her in it.  After trying 6x's and her waking and crying the minute we layed her down we gave up.  My DH took her to the rocking chair in the family room, rocked her and they fell asleep until 5am when she had a bottle and came in bed with me where she nursed 2x's and was up for the day at 7:45am.  ERRRR.  Where are we going wrong?  I can't figure this out.  I am not supposed to let the LO cio in her crib and I am not supposed to be her prop so how do I get her to sleep in her crib w/o our help to self-soothe? 

We have taken the advice given.  Last night at 7pm we started her bedtime routine.  We had a nice bath, a massage, a story in her room and then I nursed her to sleep.  I have black out blinds in her room and white noise that I play.  I read somewhere about the different stages of an infants sleep and it seems like the same time in her sleep cycle she stirs and wakes to the point where if she could self-soothe she'd probably go back to sleep. 

My DH can get her back to sleep in his arms w/o feeding her so we know she doesn't need to be NTS (unless she is with me).  She won't take a paci which we bought yesterday hoping this might help.  She wants nothing to do with a lovie. 

People keep telling me to get her used to her crib.  But if I put her in her crib asleep does she really know she is in it?  The minute she stirs and cries we pick her up so that would be the only time she would know she isn't in DH arms or mommy's bed.

HELP....HELP....HELP.... we are desperate to get our lives back on track.  DH hasn't slept in his own bed for 10 mths.  He sleeps on the floor or in the reclining chair.  He doesn't complain tho but I feel sad for him:(

[cuckoochick]

The way your DD is reacting to her crib is understandable sweetie. She is just resisting the unfamiliar. She is used to sleeping with you in your bed and is not used to being in her crib alone. When we started trying to break the co-sleeping prop (as I mentioned earlier) first of all I slept with DD on a mattress on a floor in DD's nursery so that she would get used to being in that room with me to build her confidence. We also did lots of playing in there in the day so that she learned that her cot was a nice place to be. Then we moved to sleep training so that she fell asleep in the cot so that when she woke she knew where she was. If your DD is going to sleep in your arms and then waking in her cot it is bound to startle her the change to being lowered in the cot. This was exactly how my DD was. It could take attempt after attempt to put her down asleep for her to wake up and then we had to rock her to sleep over and over until we eventually got lucky (or she was so exhausted she stayed asleep). Your DD is going to find it difficult to resettle herself in the cot if she doesn't know how to put herself to sleep in the cot in the first place, kwim? I know this is a scary prospect but getting her to settle herself will be the best thing when you are ready.

Getting your LO to fall asleep in her cot can be done without leaving her to CIO because you will be there with her and not leaving her alone. There probably will be tears as your LO learns how to self-settle (I already told you it wasn't half as bad as I imagined it to be). The WD routine you have started sounds lovely and you can nurse before bed but you need to try to put her down drowsy but awake and then comfort her in the crib (without picking up if possible) until she goes to sleep, gradually decreasing the amount you comfort her as the days go by. Even if you are just sitting by the cot with your hand through the bars and telling her it is ok, you are there to comfort her. If you give in after half an hour then all the distress that you and your DD will have gone through will have been for nothing. I would say that to start sleep training you have to feel ready that you can commit to it and not give up. It might take a long while for your DD to settle herself the first time she does it but it will get quicker and with less crying the more she learns the skill. Would you believe it if I told you my DD dives into her bed at night now?! She loves her cot and sleep training was the best thing we ever did because we were all so much more rested.

Have you read any of the stickies in the FAQs on the PU/PD board?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=89.0

How have your naps been getting on? Did she sleep any longer after a longer A time?

Hugs

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs, the most important thing to realize here is that it won't be easy and it will be a slow process, even if you are consistent and stick with it. It could take weeks.

I understand it is stressful, but after trying 6 timeand giving up is just reinforcing the habit. Your LO will think it just takes that much misery to get to the point of falling asleep how she is used to.

This isn't her adult, but it's what she knows. To change this itwill be hard, but the difference between CIO and what you are doing is you are there with your LO through it. Yes it's hard, but you are helping your LO through this, comforting them rather than abandoning them and breaking their trust in you.

Getting her in her crib during her A times to play will help her get used to it, maybe play peek a boo through the slots or when you are putting things away in her room give he a toy to play with in it.

Maybe given you know that she doesn't need to be fed to sleep your DH should give the next 3 days a shot to get her in the cot drowsy. What do you think?

[2ndTimeAround]

Today DD went down for her nap at 11 (BF to sleep) and I transferred her to her crib while in quiet sleep where she slept until 12:45.  She didn't want an PM nap but ate a big supper so maybe she was hungry:)

I researched another' method.  Is this a good one to try?  I also looked into LO's sleep cycle and figured out that we were trying to transfer her to her crib when she was in REM sleep which is why she would wake up straight away.  

My DH is on vacation 2nd week in May so we thought this might be a good time to try the crib again.  My DD is cutting her top teeth so hopefully they will have come thru by then and we will have success:)

If I try the 'Ferber' method which seems okay even if I tweak it a bit, what do I do when the LO is crying and won't soothe herself and just wants to be picked up?  As of now she doesn't want you to rub or pat her.  She kicks, arches her back cries
and screams.  Do I leave her in her crib all the while pat/rub and saying words of encouragement? And if this doesn't work what happens if we do pick her up?

[2ndTimeAround]

PS she doesn't mind being in her crib to play so we are definitely making progress with her becoming familiar with it:)

[ZacsMumme]

I am not 100% familiar with this method but I believe it involves CIO/CC which i would strongly advise against. Have a read of why BW and Tracey were so against leaving a baby to cry alone.

I know it's tough, but please don't leave your LO to cry. I have asked someone who has been through this method of training to post their experience first hand, but basically you are breaking your baby's trust in you, they don't learn anything other than to preserve energy be ause you won't come. It is a survival instinct.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=211289.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=222275.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63839.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=163042.0
Hang in there xx

[cuckoochick]

I would absolutely agree with Sara about avoiding using any form of CIO method.


We can help you if you are ready to commit to sleep training. It depends upon the pace at which you want to go. If you want to keep the props and just getting her to sleep in the crib (but I personally think this will be difficult as you've found when trying to put her down when she's asleep) or if you want to just go for it and do full-on sleep training in the crib and self-settling with you and/or your DH there to help your DD.

We can help but we have to be directed by you because you know your DD best. As Sara said, hang in there. I'm off to bed as it's 11pm UK time but keep posting

[2ndTimeAround]

I am for sure against the CIO method.  I didn't think this method was to let baby CIO but good to know.

The question I keep coming back to is what do I do when I put LO in her crib awake but drowsy and she cries the first night we try this and beyond?  So LO is crying in her crib just after we lay her down, how do we handle this?  Can we pick her up?  Do we keep her in the crib the whole time but stay with her for the duration of the night?  This is where I am so confused.  We know we have to put her in her crib drowsy but we don't know how to correctly soothe her so she learns for herself to self-settle.  What if she cries the entire time she is in her crib that first night?  One night my DH stayed in her room with her in her crib. She was crying loudly so he would look up, check on her, lay her back down and repeat.  This went on for 1.5hrs and she wasn't happy.  He didn't pick her up tho.  Was this the right thing to do and should we have continued b/c we gave up thinking there was no way she was getting tired.  She seemed to just be getting more upset.

[2ndTimeAround]

Is there a thread someone can put here so I can read where to begin with this process?  I have read some threads on PU/PD but don't know where to start since DD is 10 mths.  I don't know if I start at the beginning with picking up like you do with an infant or do I start at DD's real age and use only my voice? I should have started this process much earlier. 

I agree Nicola, I think we want to nip the self-settle and crib to sleep all at once.  I don't want to drag this process on any longer then we need to.  You all have been so helpful and knowledgeable.  My DS who is 10 was born with Cleft lip and palate and because of this he couldn't bf b/c he couldn't latch.  For that reason I pumped for 6 months straight every 3 hrs.  He never slept in bed with me b/c he didn't need to so that's why I am so confused with all this stuff lol.

[ZacsMumme]

Okay Hun I think I understand what you are saying...you don't feel you understand the full process well enough to start is that right? If so then you are doing the right thing waiting and asking questions. You need to feel in control and that your LO is safe and ok too through this, but how to get through the tough bits!

you are right 1.5 hrs is a long time, and I think I would have given up too! Let me have a look around the boards and see if I can find some good info.

In the meantime can you tell us what you think she will accept or at least find comforting as a form of helping to settle other than being fed to sleep or being put in the cot asleep. 

[2ndTimeAround]

unfortunately she likes being held:(  or nursed but that seems to be the only way to comfort her.  And yes you are right, I don't fully understand the process or where to start.***sigh***

[cuckoochick]

The question I keep coming back to is what do I do when I put LO in her crib awake but drowsy and she cries the first night we try this and beyond?  So LO is crying in her crib just after we lay her down, how do we handle this?  Can we pick her up?  Do we keep her in the crib the whole time but stay with her for the duration of the night?  This is where I am so confused.  We know we have to put her in her crib drowsy but we don't know how to correctly soothe her so she learns for herself to self-settle.  What if she cries the entire time she is in her crib that first night?  One night my DH stayed in her room with her in her crib. She was crying loudly so he would look up, check on her, lay her back down and repeat.  This went on for 1.5hrs and she wasn't happy.  He didn't pick her up tho.  Was this the right thing to do and should we have continued b/c we gave up thinking there was no way she was getting tired.  She seemed to just be getting more upset.

This sounds about right to me. The first few times it might take a long time. We were lucky and the longest DD cried for was 45 mins at BT one evening but the amount of time that it took did decrease and so did the amount of crying iykwim? For some people when sleep-training they keep a record of how long it took for their LO to fall asleep so that they can see the progress they are making (time decreasing, less comforting etc).

I'm pretty sure that the PD method as Tracey outlines for bubs your DD's age would be to PD and not PU. You can try to PU but that just made my DD so much worse when we put her back down again because I'm sure she was thinking, oh mum is picking me up to rock/cuddle me to sleep and then was being put down again. I think the age that your DD is you would be doing PD only if she gets up and is crying, lie her back down and say your sleepy phrase (For us it was " Shhh, it's sleepy-time C"). You will need to stay in the room with her until she is asleep initially because this is all so unfamiliar to her.

I know that you are worried you will have no way of comforting your DD and that will be difficult for you. This process is not easy but once you start you won't regret it. Of course anything that you do to try and comfort your DD will not be as readily accepted as the breast or being held because that is familiar and your DD will be upset/angry but I am sure that you will find something that comforts her (just placing your hand on her, stroking her back/forehead/hair, singing). When we started sleep training, DD at that point didn't have a lovey so we did it without and introduced the lovey a few months later.

So WRT a plan, it's usually better to start sleep training from the first nap of the day because then it gives your LO a chance to get the hang of things by the evening. Usually for naps you would try to get her to settle for 45mins (you could do less) and then if she hasn't gone to sleep, get her up for a wee time and then try again a while later. For BT and any NWs that you do not intend to nurse you would stick with the process until your DD goes to sleep. If you give in after an hour you are just teaching your LO to hold out longer and that you will eventually give in and also your LO will have gone through all of that upset for nothing. I know this is the hard part and for me it is why I kept putting off the sleep training because I wasn't sure that I was ready for it and I knew once I started I couldn't turn back. I will ask some other people for their opinion with regards to feeding at night for you.

Is there anything else you need to know? Please don't be afraid to ask very direct questions so that we can answer them and prepare you as best we can. No question is a silly question iykwim?

[2ndTimeAround]

So I just want to clarify: 

Start sleep training for her AM nap.  Don't PU but PD as need be and stay with her to help her settle for as long as it takes or if DD won't settle.  Do the same for BT.

What do we do if DD won't settle after let's say an hr?  Is there a cut off in the NW or when we 1st put LO down in the evening that we PU and try again later or is that just for naps?  Also, what about the feeding through the night?  She usually either nurses or takes a bottle at least once thru the night.  Do we stop this?  If not, what do we do when it's time to feed her?

[cuckoochick]

For naps try for 45 mins and if she doesn't fall asleep by then, then get her up, take her downstairs and do a low key A time and then try again a little while later. Don't give up and nurse/rock to sleep.

For BT and NWs you'd keep going for as long as it takes so yes, it could be a long/short time depending upon how your DD responds.

How many times does your LO nurse at night? I've asked for more opinions on the nursing at night for you. My DD STTN the day we started sleep training at 6.5mos so I've no personal experience of cutting out the night feeds. Hopefully someone will be along soon. 

[ZacsMumme]

For BT and NWs you'd keep going for as long as it takes so yes, it could be a long/short time depending upon how your DD responds.

This is the hard part I guess, you and DH need to be mentally prepared for up to a week of really awful sleep and a lot of crying. ear plugs have been recommended by past mums in this position, as has having DH take time off work so during the day you can take turns and rest when you need to to prevent yourselves getting too exhausted. With exhaustion comes stress and you are more likely to give up.

It is really important to understand that the crying, as awful as it is - is your LOs way of communication. She is angry, frustrated and not sure why you have just taken away her comfort item for sleep! She needs to learn to sleep without it. However, if you are with her as opposed to leaving her alone if may be harder for you, but it is so much better for her! She isnt left alone, scared and feeling abandoned. You are helping her through the process.

So many hugs. Nic has given you great advice. x

[Shiv52]

How many times does your LO nurse at night? I've asked for more opinions on the nursing at night for you. My DD STTN the day we started sleep training at 6.5mos so I've no personal experience of cutting out the night feeds. Hopefully someone will be along soon.

At 10 months your LO does need a feed in the night and if you are going to all the effort of sleep training it is probably best to just cut it now rather than put all this effort in and then have to do it again to drop the NF. 

How are you getting on? I agree with the girls that the nursing to sleep is the biggest issue and it will be hard to break it but well worth it.   And I also agree that it is best to only use PD, not PU and not use the rockign etc you were using because you dont' want to trade one prop for another. 

My friend weaned feeding to sleep about this age and the first night her DD screamed for 5.5 hours at the first NW as she wanted to be fed.  her DH just sat by the cot and reassured her and the  next night it was an hour and then after that it was seconds. 

Holding your hand while you get started xx

[2ndTimeAround]

Ok so our LO is now in her crib for naps and BT.  I BF then put baby in crib awake but drowsy.  She always cries and fights it but usually rubbing her belly or patting her back seems to settle her enough to fall asleep.

She is usually awake for day at 7:30am, nap at 10:30/11am which lasts about 2 hrs then she has a second nap around 3ish. Bed at 8/8:30pm.

The problem however is her frequent NW.  She doesn't wake from her naps ever but at night she wakes frequently.  Last night one NW lasted over an hour and another lasted 1/2 hr.  Around 6 or 6:30am she wakes and I bring her in my bed where I BF her and she falls back to sleep.

Just looking for some advice to cut down on the NW's.  Also, how long will we have to sleep in her room for during the sleep training process and will we ever be able to put her in her crib and walk away w/o having to shh/pat her to sleep?

[ZacsMumme]

At ten months I think she needs more A time really. How long are her naps - can you post EaSY?

[2ndTimeAround]

Well she's almost 12 months now but here's her easy.

Up for day at 7:30-8am
breakfast at 8:30-9am
play
Nap at 10:30-11
Up from nap at 12-1pm somewhere in there (depends on how long she slept at night for)
Lunch
Play
PM nap between 2-3pm
Supper
7pm bath and wind down
8 nurse to sleep

[ZacsMumme]

So her morning A time, and A between naps is very short for her age. That last A is very long. My first thought is that she is UT for her naps, then OT by BT, leading to NW

Have a read of these links, and let me know what you think.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=41952.0
Something like this may work well for her if she naps well
WU 7.30
Nap 10.30-11.15
Nap 2-3.30 (or as long as she likes)
BT 8

WHat do you think?

[2ndTimeAround]

I will definitely try the 2-1 transition for naps.

What are your thoughts on when we will be able to just put LO in the crib and walk away w/o the shh/pat to sleep?  When does that start?

[ZacsMumme]

Well WI/wO is a method of sleep training as is shh pat. I woder if the patting has become a prop if you need to do it at BT and NW etc. can your LO self settle withou you at all for naps/BT - does she get worked up easily...temperament? It may be you do need to try WI/WO

[2ndTimeAround]

She doesn't self settle at all.  She has been in her crib for 1 week today for naps and BT.  It seems like at 2:30am everyday she wakes screaming for over an hour and there is no settling her.  We really don't no what to do.  I guess I need help with the self settle and to know when enough crying is enough and how to settle her in that case.  With the WI/WO method how long do you let her cry for?

[ZacsMumme]

Have a read of this, what Doyou think, I think you may need to choose one or the other (WO/WO or GW) if shh patt is becoming a prop.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

Hugs

[2ndTimeAround]

Haven't read the last thread you posted however I wanted to add the every night between 3-4am LO wakes and won't go back to sleep.  What are we doing  wrong?  Last night she woke at 3 and wouldn't settle for 2 hours.  Finally we took her out of her crib.  Why does she keep waking?

[ZacsMumme]

That sounds like UT, hence you may e entering the 2-1 territory. Are her NW happy then annoyed?

[2ndTimeAround]

I have her only napping once a day; at 1pm and she usually sleeps 2-2 1/2 hrs.  She then starts her WD at 7pm and in bed at 8pm. She is usually happy then angry when she NW. She kicks and arches her back. She is staying awake for two + hrs at these NW's.  What should we do when she won't go back to sleep? Should we pick her up and comfort her?  And how can we avoid these NW's all together?

[ZacsMumme]

I wonder if you have hit a wonder week - developmental leap? Z does this when he goes through them
http://thewonderweeks.com/index.php/about-the-wonder-weeks/your-babys-10-leaps/mental-leap-8
Is she walking or trying too, any other milestones?

[2ndTimeAround]

She is standing and almost ready to walk but that's about it.  I think she is on schedule for her milestones.

For the last two nights DH has given DD a bottle for her NW at 4ish.  She then falls back to sleep until 8am.  Is this normal?  I thought she should be able to make it until morning but these NW's are so confusing.

[ZacsMumme]

For the last two nights DH has given DD a bottle for her NW at 4ish.  She then falls back to sleep until 8am.

Its probably the bottle/full tum helping her settle back to sleep.
Is she eating well during the day?

[2ndTimeAround]

I think she is.  Lately she needs us to rock her in our arms to fall asleep.  I don't know how to win.  We think we have it all worked out and then something new happens and she is more demanding at night.  At 12 months should she be getting a full bottle plus her cereal b4 bed?  She still hasn't cut her top teeth yet either.  Any day now.  We give her tylenol b4 bed some nights for the teething just in case. 

[ZacsMumme]

We think we have it all worked out and then something new happens and she is more demanding at night.

It does sound like she may be in a developmental leap, these affect sleep and make LOs more clingy and cranky
A bottle at BT at this age is fine IMO
I think you may need to wait out those top two teeth then reassess, they are really painful those top front ones (our worst with Z!) and can really make them miserable. x