My 6.5mo thinks sleep is for losers!

[minty007]

Hi all,

I'm wondering whether anyone has any suggestions for my 6.5 month old LO. He's always been a terrible sleeper - in fact as a newborn he was waking to feed 3-hourly and that's the best it's ever been since!

I'm just starting to try an EASY routine after implementing some sort of routine for the first time in the last 2 weeks as I'm just so tired that I feel we need SOME structure to see if it helps.

At the moment he generally wants to feed before sleep, which I'll need to work on somehow. However, I've been working on getting him to go down in his cot drowsy but awake and that's been going ok so far but hasn't really helped his night sleep.

He was having 2 long-ish naps a day in the morning and late afternoon with a short one at lunchtime but yesterday he dropped to two long naps only and he's maintaimed that today so maybe he's really down to only needing two.

His routine (yesterday and today anyway!) generally looks like this now:

6.30-7am Wake - sometimes he'll BF depending on when his last NF was
8am breakfast
9.30-10am nap, usually after a small BF
11.30 wake
12.30 lunch
1.30-2pm BF
3.30 nap (today he wouldn't go down until 4.15pm!) after small BF
4.30-5pm wake
5.30pm dinner
6.30pm bath
7pm bottle
7.15-7.30 bed (except today he wouldn't go down until 8.15 due to late nap)

After this he usually wakes around 11-11.30pm when I feed him (I'm thinking of it as a kind of DF). He then stirs at least once between then and 3am when he usually wakes up fully for some reason and takes AGES to resettle. I used to be able to resettle him with his dummy but now that only works some of the time. At other times (like last night) he is just wide awake and fighting sleep even if I rock him, sing to him etc etc. I used to offer to BF which would work even though he wasn't hungry but lately that's not worked either. We eventually give in and take him into our bed where he'll often fall asleep if I hold him close but only after being awake for at least 1-1.5 hours  I don't know if there's an element of SA as he WILL NOT settle for DH whatever he does.

He then sleeps fitfully in our bed (I can't sleep with him in the bed tbh as he's such a fidget), stirring for his dummy at least 5 times until he wakes at 5.30-6am when I feed him. He'll then dose until 6.30-7am when he's up for the day, seemingly regardless of bedtime 

I don't mind feeding him twice a night if that's what he needs (although I'm not totally convinced he needs both) but it's the constant stirring and resettling plus the being awake for hours in the middle of the night that's driving me insane. I thought it was a dummy problem so weaned him off for a while but it made no difference. in fact I often notice that he's stirring with the dummy in his mouth, and he can definitely re-plug himself if needed but he hardly ever does. He has sttn with one wake for feed at 4am twice since he was born so i know he can do it.

I'm thinking of trying PU/PD at the 3am wake...do you think this is a good idea?

Could i tweak his naps or routine at all?

Sorry for the essay - if you got this far then thanks  Any advice is much appreciated!

[clazzat]

I wonder if perhaps his a times aren't working for him - if I am reading your easy rightly, he has about 2-2.5h first thing, then 4h in the middle of the day and then another 2h-ish before bed. I would think that perhaps he is ot from having such a long a time in the middle of the day - my 13mo can only just manage 4h in the afternoon, so that is a really long time for a 6mo. Could you try and move his second nap earlier - say 1.30/2ish and then maybe bedtime a bit earlier if necessary?

[becj86]

I agree that the A times are probably not working for him, but I see it a new routine where he's just dropped the CN in the middle of the day. That's pretty typical for 6month olds to drop the CN and go to two full naps. I think the fighting the second nap is probably down to OT.

Nights: Are you going in to resettle when he stirs or only when he cries? Giving him a chance to settle himself if he is just moving around in bed or mantra crying/talking to himself rather than going in straight away is a way you can help him get used to settling himself without you there. Your description of the waking sounds like you might be interrupting his self-settling and waking him further

[minty007]

Thanks ladies :-)

I agree that the A times are a bit screwy at the moment...they were fairly regular at 2.5-3 hours before but since he dropped his lunchtime CN they've gone a bit off. I think you're right in that he's not quite used to it yet and gets really OT in the afternoon so delays his second nap which doesn't help things. I'll try to get him to go down earlier for the afternoon nap to see if that helps.

Re the nights: he's still sleeping in a cot in our room atm as we live in a one-bed flat (moving to a 3 bed house in the next few weeks if all goes to plan) which I think may be a factor in his stirrings as firstly we all disturb eachother's sleep and secondly I'm very aware that my husband has to go to work in the morning and don't want him to be disturbed so I tend to rush to replace dummy/resettle too quickly. I think you're right that I'm not really giving LO a chance to settle himself, which he might be able to do given a few minutes, but am probably disturbing him more.

My DH is off work in a couple of weeks so that would give us a chance to try leaving him to resettle for a minute or two. I am also desperately hoping that once we move and he is in his own nursery he'll sleep better as we won't be constantly disturbing him.

Thanks for the suggestions guys - really useful :-)

[becj86]

I used to jump in too fast too so DH could sleep. He got more sleep when I stopped jumping in because DS settled WAY faster without me disrupting him. Maybe give it a go when your DH has a few days off in a row - like a weekend maybe?

[minty007]

Yeah I think in hindsight It has caused more problems than it actually solved!

I'll definitely give it a try when he's off next weekend...hopefully our adjacent apartment neighbours will forgive us ;-)

[becj86]

Keep us posted

[minty007]

Well, last night was terrible  He woke literally every hour or less and would sometimes settle with the dummy but other times would just cry.

His last nap was messed up yesterday as we visited my parents for Father's day which meant we were driving for a while and he fell asleep in the car after his last nap but too early for BT so then he wouldn't go down to sleep as he was UT. He also seems to have a knack of needing to dirty his nappy as soon as I try to settle him in the cot  so he didn't end up going to sleep until 9.30  which was obviously not what we wanted.

He then woke at 10.15 and settled with dummy, 11.30 resettled again, 12.15 and was awake until I tried PU/PD at 1.30am, then woke again at 3am. At this point I offered a feed as he'd gone 6 hours but he wasn't really interested tbh...I really think he could go most of the night without a feed. Then OH tried to settle him but he was resisting sleep with vigour so we tried some more PU/PD which took longer to work this time and ended up in a kind of shush/pat scenario if I'm honest. He did eventually settle but not until 4.30am. The he slept until 6.30 when I fed him as he was hungry, after which he slept until 7.15am and was then up for the day.

All in all a horrible night but there are two positives for me. One, he obviously doesn't need to feed so often at night and is using it as a prop to go back to sleep, as when I tried to BF he shallow sucked and when I offered a bottle he refused. I think he can reliably go for 6-7hrs without a feed. Two, we didn't bring him into our bed, which is what he wanted I think. We are trying to stp the cosleeping as none of us sleep well with it and it's become a bit of a cop-out for us now, so I'm pleased that we didn't cave and just put him in our bed.

Today I'm going to try really hard to stick to the 2 long naps and 7pm BT to see if it helps.  And I'm going to drink a LOT of coffee.

Any tips or obvious mistakes you can see? Your help is much appreciated 

[clazzat]

Good luck! Sorry for the horrible night, but well done for staying strong. When I finally decided to wean the co-sleeping it wasn't as awful as I thought it would be and it was well worth it in the end.

[minty007]

Thanks!

His naps were much better today and he went to bed at 7.15pm after his usual routine so I'm really hoping tonight is better.

DH and I have made a pact to persevere with the PU/PD when he wakes, not to offer a feed unless at least 6 hours has passed since the last one, and not to put him in our bed whatever happens.

It's nice to have a plan and be able to support eachother, even if it doesn't go smoothly. I just can't help but hope desperately for a time when he doesn't wake so frequently and DH and I have our bed back :-)

Fingers crossed for a good night.

[clazzat]

It won't feel like this for quite a long time, but this will be such a distant memory within the next couple of years that you will wonder if it can really have been as bad as you thought it was. Until she was nearly 18 months my dd2 didn't sttn, and I was averaging about 4h sleep a night, often less, and yet when I was talking to my dh about it (comparing it to our rubbish sleeping ds!) we had virtually forgotten it - it was just looking through some old posts on here that reminded me how awful it was.

[minty007]

Well ladies, it's an actual miracle ;-)

He SLEPT! He went to bed at 7pm and was asleep by 7.15pm. He didn't stir until 10pm and he didn't cry, just moaned once and went back to sleep. He then stirred again and woke at 11.30pm crying but I replugged the paci and held his hand and he resettled to sleep within 5 minutes. He woke at 3.30am and I thought he'd definitely cry for food, but as I watched him in the dark (he's in our room until we move into our new house) he just lifted his head, replugged himself, and went back to sleep within a minute!! He then woke at 6.45am as usual and had a feed. I can't believe it!!

I know that this isn't yet a pattern and it may well be a one-off and I'll be on here tomorrow bemoaning the fact that I've been up all night :-) but I'm just so pleased that he's proved that he CAN do it (and to finally get some good sleep myself!).

We were all prepared to do PU/PD all night and then we didn't even have to! I don't know what the difference was yesterday other than being very strict with his naps and bedtime. I'll definitely be trying to maintain that today and hoping for the start of better sleep.

Thanks again everyone for all your support :-)

[clazzat]

Yay for the good night - definitely gives you the strength to carry on!  Hope it continues.

[minty007]

Right ladies, I'm hoping for some advice/encouragement.

Two very bad nights since our miracle night of sleep. Last night, as an example, he went to sleep at 8.15pm (after a battle from 7pm but he dirtied a nappy so I think that was what it was about).

He then woke at 10pm for his dummy, then at 12-1am (I fed him.....I said I wouldn't but I could hear his stomach growling so I caved. Should I have held out anyway?), then 3am-5.15am, then at 5.45am until 6.20, then woke for the day at 7am.

At the 3am wake up I knew he wasn't hungry so we tried PU/PD. It would work really quickly and he'd usually settle within 10minutes, only to wake up again 5 minuted later and we'd start all over again. We did this solidly for 1.5hours, then gave up and brought him into our bed (I know this was wrong but we'd all lost it at this point :-( When he settled I put him in the cot drowsy and he slept for 30mins then woke AGAIN. We PU/PD again an again he slept but only for short period before waking repeatedly.

His naps have been pretty good all week. Morning nap at 9.30-10 for 1.5 hours and afternoon one at around 2.30 for 1.5 hours, then bedtime routine from 6.30 to be in bed for 7pm usually. This routine has been working well for us so I just don't get why the nights seem to be getting even worse. Should I tweak the naps?

I really don't know what we're doing wrong? His nappy had been changed last night, he wasn't hungry, I offered water and he didn't want it, he had calpol before bed for his teeth and he didn't seem in pain....I'm wondering if it's SA? He cries whenever I leave the room atm and is much clingier in the day time. At night he will settle quite quickly if I hold him, but not for DH, and he seems to be searching for me in the bedroom and crying if I leave the room to go to the bathroom etc

I don't know how to continue with this. Should we carry on as we are? We're so exhausted and frustrated that we can't make a good decision as to what to do.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[becj86]

then at 12-1am (I fed him.....I said I wouldn't but I could hear his stomach growling so I caved. Should I have held out anyway?)

I'd have fed - he probably used up a lot of energy fighting bedtime for 1.25hr...

Is he on the brink of any physical milestones?
It could be a wonder week - they can play havoc with sleep: http://www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php/about-the-wonder-weeks/your-babys-10-leaps/mental-leap-5

[minty007]

He keeps trying to pull himself up to standing so maybe that's the cause...?

It could be a WW. It feels like just as we get over one WW, another one starts!

[becj86]

Yes, between teething, milestones physical and mental and the odd illness, there's not a lot of time when everything's going perfectly with a young child...

[minty007]

Hi Ladies,

I have a quick question for you if that's ok...

So I've been trying to stick to the EASY routine and it's going pretty well so far in the daytime. His naps are getting more regular in time and duration and I think he's happier for it.

The night-times, however, are still a mess. He's going down to sleep ok after a bottle (I know this isn't strictly EASY but he REFUSES to drink it any earlier and if I don't get it down him he'll just wake after an hour hungry). I always put him down sleepy but awake and he settles pretty quickly to sleep. It's the NW that are causing problems still. He generally used to sleep until around 12-1am when I'd often feed him, but recently he's been waking at 10.30pm and is REALLY hard to re-settle. I try not to feed him as I don't think he should be hungry that soon, but he holds out for a BF I think and despite PU/PD will stay awake until midnight when I eventually cave and feed him just to get some sleep.

He'll then generally sleep until 3.30-4.30am ish when he wakes up and won't go back to sleep. He'll sometimes cry when he wakes but seem to be unable to get comfortable or drift off again despite everything we try (including pain meds as I thought it might be teething but it made no difference). He ususally stays awake for 1.5-2hours then, even if I feed him or do any kind of APOP you can think of ;-). PU/PD worked at first but now he just laughs when you put him down, settles for a minute then cries again until you pick him up....rinse and repeat for an hour.

I can't work out whether he's OT or UT as he seems to flit between the two...? His wu and bt are consistent, as are his naps now, but every night he'll be awake for at least 2 hours at some point in the night and none of my old tricks to settle him seem to work any more.

I would try W2S but the times aren't consistent. He is still having 2 NF at this point as well, even though I'm pretty sure he could go without at least one of them but he's back to taking a good feed each time so now I'm doubting myself...

His naps look like this now:

7am wu
9.30-10am nap for 1.5 hours
2.30-3pm nap for 1.5 hours
7pm bt

Any advice or idea would be great. I feel like the days have become so much better but the nights are steadily getting worse!!

[becj86]

but he holds out for a BF I think and despite PU/PD will stay awake until midnight when I eventually cave and feed him just to get some sleep.

I totally understand the needing to get the child to sleep after 1.5hr of NW, but you caving without him sleeping is teaching him that is he cries long enough, you will feed him. Its important that he goes to sleep, even if only for 5mins before you feed him so as not to reinforce that message.

What happens NW-wise if you feed him at 10:30 when he wakes?
Have you introduced any new solid foods? A new mealtime?

How are his feeds in the day?

[minty007]

I totally understand the needing to get the child to sleep after 1.5hr of NW, but you caving without him sleeping is teaching him that is he cries long enough, you will feed him. Its important that he goes to sleep, even if only for 5mins before you feed him so as not to reinforce that message.

You're totally right, I know. I suppose I just get exhausted and frustrated and nursing him seems like the easiest option....I know it isn't in the long run so I need to man-up a bit and stick to my guns.

If I feed him when he first wakes he'll go straight back to sleep usually but will still wake 3 hours later (ish) anyway, so I'm pretty sure it isn't actually about hunger. He's still having three meals a day but has become much less interested in solids in the past week for some reason and it's a struggle to get him to eat much. He's nursing a bit more regularly than before though to make up for it I assume.

He usually BF on waking, unless he's had a NF at 5/6am in which case he isn't hungry (this is happening more often than not lately)
breakfast at 8am (with BF after if he hasn't fed already)
BF at 11.30
Lunch at 12.15
Bottle of formula or EBM at 2pm (usually around 4-6oz)
dinner at 5pm
Bottle before bed at 6/6.30
BT 7pm

I haven't introduced anything new that I can think of. He is teething a bit but it doesn't seem bad enough to explain the NW IYKWIM?

He doesn't BF for very long in the day so I don't know whether he's trying to make up the calories at night as he seems to feed better then. He's so distractible that I've been trying to feed him in a dim, quiet room to help but it's still a challenge. He drinks better from a bottle so do you think I should try transitioning to more bottles in the day to see if that helps?

[becj86]

Reading through, before I even saw the comment about him teething I was going to ask about teething. Honestly, that's exactly what happens with DS when he's teething - he eats little to no solids, BF's more frequently and wakes more often at night and won't settle without a feed which I usually just do when he's teething. If he's not feeding as much in the day, he may well be hungry.

Maybe try bottles during the day or at least at BT or a cluster feed to help him get a longer stretch going at night. No harm in that I wouldn't have though. Are you feeding him when he wakes from naps so he's still drowsy? Have you tried feeding him, giving him 10-15mins to play with whatever has him fascinated and feeding again to try and up the calories in the day?

Are you medicating for teething pain before bed?

[minty007]

Thanks - I did wonder if it was teething as sometimes it seems like he's desperate to go to sleep but can't get comfortable yk?

I'm offering him a feed when he wakes but he will usually only do a minute or two before he wants to be off exploring. He'll often feed the best about 30mins to an hour before his naps but I've been careful not to let it get too close to sleep times as I don't want to make the feed-to-sleep prop any more of an issue than it is in the night. I will try to be more persistent in offering during the day and trying the 10-15mins of play during a staggered feed like you suggest.

We have medicated before bed a couple of times but tbh it didn't seem to make much difference. We are hoping to move within the next two weeks when we'll start transitioning him to his own room as I really think (well, am really hoping!) that his sleep is disturbed by us to some degree, particularly as the first wake-up often happens within 10mins of me going to bed. I'm hoping that he'll settle better on his own in the night too if he can't see us as soon as he wakes, as during his naps he sometimes wakes but self-settles and I wonder if it's because I'm not in the room so he doesn't feel the need to call out to me and so just goes back to sleep. At night I've seen him lift his head to look for us and if he sees either of us move or make a sound he starts to whinge for us, but if we 'play dead' he'll sometimes settle back to sleep. Unfortunately OH snores quite badly so that doesn't help either!

Thanks so much for your suggestions - I'll try to get more food into him in the day and see if teething meds help tonight as the description of what your LO does when teething is exactly what my LO is doing now so maybe that's the cause.

[becj86]

I really think (well, am really hoping!) that his sleep is disturbed by us to some degree, particularly as the first wake-up often happens within 10mins of me going to bed.

This could be at least part of the issue - if LO's sleep is disturbed during the first part of the night, they can wake more often through the rest of the night. Can you try going to bed at a different time - 15mins either side of usual time and see if you catch him in a different part of his sleep cycle and he's not disturbed as much?

as during his naps he sometimes wakes but self-settles and I wonder if it's because I'm not in the room so he doesn't feel the need to call out to me and so just goes back to sleep. At night I've seen him lift his head to look for us and if he sees either of us move or make a sound he starts to whinge for us, but if we 'play dead' he'll sometimes settle back to sleep. Unfortunately OH snores quite badly so that doesn't help either!

Totally agree that having him in his own room should help - DS is across the hall and can see me from his bed but if I'm 'asleep', he tends to settle himself quite happily. I did have to learn not to intervene too quickly - really listen to the cries and try not to jump in when he's mantra crying.

[minty007]

So we had a similar night last night except this time I had gone to bed earlier but he woke up at 11.30pm, I fed him as he hadn't fed much before bed and it had been 4.5hours, but he wouldn't go back to sleep until 1am!

He has this cycle where he seems to get sleepy, eyes closed and relaxed, then starts fidgeting around and wakes himself up again, so he cries because he's tired and wants to be asleep, I put my hand on him and soothe him, and the whole cycle starts again.

I thought it was teething so I've been giving him pain meds before bed and if he wakes and seems uncomfortable, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Could it be OT? I know the wakings are supposed to be earlier in the evening but I'm clutching at straws really. His naps have been pretty good so I'm not sure if it makes sense that he could be OT, but it just seems that he's 'wired' at night when he wakes and just can't settle himself, even though he often does self-settle when he wakes during naps in the day so i know he can do it. I'm sure that it's probably us disturbing him that makes him wake, but I don't understand why he's so impossible to settle again in the night...it NEVER takes 2 hours to settle him to sleep at any other time, and he MUST be tired surely?

Anyway, I did a slightly earlier BT tonight to see if that helps, so he's been asleep since 6.45pm and has stirred once or twice but I haven't had to go in yet so fingers crossed fo a better night.

Thanks again for all your help - it is much appreciated :-)

[becj86]

Could it be OS? Is someone coming home and revving him up just before bed?

Wired at night is usually either OS; UT - happy and awake, doesn't want to settle; or chronically OT - wants to settle but can't.

[minty007]

It could be I suppose...OH comes home around 6pm usually but tries not to OS him by being low-key. Plus he's just been off work for two weeks and if anything LO's sleep has been worse.

I'm veering towards chronic OT atm. He was awake from 2am-5.15am last night, trying to settle but he just couldn't, then slept until 8am this morning so his EASY is a bit off today. He's just woken from his first nap after only 40mins too and despite a bit of APOP I couldn't get him back down. Going to try to get in a good pm nap and maybe an early BT tonight to see if that helps. That plus pain meds for teeth and crossed fingers and toes.

[becj86]

Chronic OT is best treated with long nights (early bedtime means the OT EW becomes a NW and easier to settle, mainly because you're a bit more motivated ).

Sleep can just be off from OH being home too - used to wish DH would just stay at work at one point around this age because DS slept like an angel when he wasn't home and was a nightmare when he was home... DH does constructive stuff when he gets home - bath, dressing, etc. getting ready for bed so he gets some daddy-time but still gets to bed at a reasonable hour and has a BF before bed in which to calm down a bit...

[minty007]

Thanks!

Going to try for some early BTs and see if that helps.

I was also starting to count down the days until OH went back to work. It's great having him around but it does make it harder to stick to a good routine which doesn't help.

LO has just fallen asleep after a short A time of 2 hrs but he only had a very short am nap so going to see if I can get him to do 1.5-2 hrs and do an early BT. I'll update tomorrow - hopefully with good news ;-)

[minty007]

Morning all,

So, just to update, our days have been brilliant. Good restorative naps at the same times each day with minimal fussing, and he wakes up happy.

The nights are continuing to be completely unpredicatble though. I've done a few early BTs which seem to have helped him wake up more rested in the morning and have extended his nights somewhat to help with what i thought was chronic OT, which is fine, but he is still waking up at some point in the night (completely random times now) and staying awake for 2 hours no matter what we do. He'll often need a feed after around 5-6hrs which I'm happy with but then he'll often wake again at a later point in the night and is just...awake. Not unhappy, not crying until the end of the 2 hours, just laying there talking and wriggling around.

I've tried just leaving him to see what happens (he's in our room so i can see him) and he just blows raspberries and chats to himself whilst playing with his cot toys for a while, but then seems to get bored or tired or something and will cry for attention, but is happy to continue playing once he knows you're awake and there.

His teeth don't seem to be bothering him that much in the day but we will medicate him if needed. It now looks like UT behaviour but I'm completely stumped as to whether this can be the case when I was so sure it was OT a while back.....? Can it be that the early BTs have now made him UT?

Our EASY is as follows:

WU 7am and BF
8am breakfast
activity - playmat or jumperoo
9.45-10am nap for 1.5 hours
11.30am small BF
12.30 lunch
activity - usually errands or a walk
2.30pm nap for 1.5 hours
4pm BF
5pm dinner
6.30pm bath
7pm bed

Then the random night wakings occur. Usually he's hungry at one or two of them but there'll be another where he's just wide awake and we're then up for at least 2 hours every time before he goes back down - usually somewhere between the hours of 2-5am but it can vary.

Any advice would be great. I'm at a bit of a loss now!

[clazzat]

Are you still doing a df? We had a similar problem with dd1 who had always been a great sleeper before that, and I think that it was because we kept the df for too long and it was disturbing her sleep cycles.

[minty007]

I've actually never done a DF...couldn't seem to do it properly without fully waking him and then having to resettle him for ages so I never did it more than a few times. It also didn't seem to extend his sleep any more - he still woke up just as often unfortunately!

[clazzat]

Not sure if I can really see what is wrong, but I wonder if maybe it is a bit of ut creeping in. When my folks were that age, I was aiming for a slightly shorter am nap with a longer pm nap - perhaps the fact that he gets such a long nap so early in the day is meaning that he doesn't see the need to sleep all night, iyswim?  Could you maybe try shaving 15 minutes off the first nap and then hopefully tacking it on to the second nap, so he is not getting less sleep overall, but you're just shifting it a bit?

[minty007]

Thank you! That's a good idea - I'll try it.

To update, things are carrying on the same with him waking up around 2-3am and being up for at least 2 hours regardless of what I do, seemingly UT. He does have a long morning nap and often a shorter pm one so you may well be right that he's using it to make up for the NW.

I'll give it a go and let you know what happens. Thanks so much for all the suggestions, you give me hope!

[minty007]

Right, I'm back :-)

A quick update before I launch into questions ;-)

LO is now nearly 8mo and the daytime EASY is going really well. His day time naps are generally good and predictable although he's showing sleepy times earlier for his morning nap now (I read about the 2,3,4 babies...I'm wondering whether he's one of those as it kind of fits).

7am WU and BF
8am breakfast
9.15-9.30am nap for 1.5 hours
11am BF
12pm lunch
2-2.30pm nap for 1.5 hours
3.30-4pm BF
5pm dinner
6.15 bath then bottle of around 6-7oz
7-7.30pm sleep

The NW are currently happening at some point between 12.30-2am, when I usually feed (I'm trying not to feed before 5 hours have passed since last feed) and he's recently been going straight back to sleep which is an improvement.

Next NW is often around 4-4.30am when i usually can resettle without a feed by flipping him onto his front (he's a tummy sleeper but rolls onto his back at night and can't seem to roll back even though he can in the day). He then sometimes wakes for a feed around 6am but seems to have been phasing this out the past few nights and has been going straight through to his 7am WU feed which is great.

The previous problem of long NWs seems to (touch wood) have sorted itself out. The NEW problem (there's always something!) is that he's become a NIGHTMARE to get to sleep in the evening. He goes down fairly easily after his bt routine at 7pm ish, but for the last week has been waking an hour later and screaming the house down.

We tried PU/PD but I now think it's too stimulating for him as it takes hours and he thinks it's a game. The last two nights we've tried a version of shush/pat whereby we avoid lifting him from the cot and try to settle him by placing a hand on him and soothing with our voices, so he knows we're there but learns that he has to go to sleep in his cot. It works eventually but last night it took 2 hours of alternating between mantra crying and literally screaming. It was horrendous for all of us.

I probably made it worse by taking him out of the cot at one point to re-check his nappy and re-burp him, just in case, and he settles straight away and goes to sleep if I'm holding him. We gave him painkillers for his teeth before bed as a bottom tooth has just burst through, but tbh it doesn't seem to bother him much in the day.

Anyway, eventually he calmed down and went to sleep in his cot (it was 9.30pm by this point) and woke at 1.30am for a feed as usual.

My questions are:

Do you think we're doing this wrong? Should we persevere with PU/PD or now that we've started to keep him in his cot at BT should we stay with that? I HATE hearing him cry, but he's reassured all the time, he's never left alone and I'm confident that he's not in any pain, just fighting sleep tooth and nail. We're desperate to get him to settle better in his cot (we were co-sleeping on and off before out of desperation) as we're moving to our new house next week and want to start transitioning him to his own room.

Is it still feasible that he needs 2 NFs at his age? I don't mind feeding him if he'll go straight back to sleep but i don't want to perpetuate a prop and I've no idea how to tell which it is I'm doing.

Could he be OT by bedtime? Should i try to tweak his routine? I can't work out if he's OT or UT and frustrated as he doesn't feel tired.

Sorry for the essay and all the questions...I feel like we're SO close to working this all out but it's one step forward and two back atm.

Thanks for any responses :-)

[katie80]

Hi there, I'm just jumping in to help out a bit.  I'll admit I haven't had time to read all the way back through the thread, so if I re-ask a question or talk about something you've already tried, please forgive me.  And, if there's something else I need to know, just point it out.

Do you think we're doing this wrong? Should we persevere with PU/PD or now that we've started to keep him in his cot at BT should we stay with that?

I would say if you think PUPD is too stimulating for him, then stick with settling him in the cot.  If you need to check a nappy or re-burp, do it right away when you go to him and then lay him down to settle.

Is it still feasible that he needs 2 NFs at his age? I don't mind feeding him if he'll go straight back to sleep but i don't want to perpetuate a prop and I've no idea how to tell which it is I'm doing.

It's not likely he still needs 2 NF at his age, but it sounds like he's phasing that early morning one out, so hopefully you're on your way there.  And honestly, I've always leaned toward feeding at that early morning time, so as not to get stuck in an EW pattern as that seems to perpetuate itself.  I think it's reasonable to expect him to go about 8hr before a feed at this point. 

Could he be OT by bedtime? Should i try to tweak his routine? I can't work out if he's OT or UT and frustrated as he doesn't feel tired.

Typically waking like that an hour after being put to sleep is OT (maybe OS), but his routine looks just fine for his age, so I'm not sure.  It could be that he's a 2-3-4 baby, but as they get older even those babies start to stretch/even their A times out.  I wonder if you evened out the day a little bit with a longer A time in the morning, it might make for a better night.  Otherwise, he could be waking from discomfort.  Is he currently getting any teeth? Does he eat dinner close to BT or anything that could be causing indigestion?

[minty007]

Thanks so much for your reply.

His first two teeth have just come through so I think that may be part of it although he doesn't seemed troubled by them in the day. I actually moved his dinnertime earlier to 4.30pm ish to avoid causing tummy problems at night but it's not made a difference yet.

I think you're right re the morning feed as the past couple of nights he hasn't woken for the 6am feed and has stretched until 7am WU time. In fact, last night he woke several times but didn't want to feed at all so I definitely think hunger isn't the issue...maybe discomfort or SA. It has become really tough for anyone but me to settle him in the evening or at night. He will scream with DH no matter what he does until I come to the 'rescue'. He's absolutely fine in the daytime with him (and other family members) but at night he goes into meltdown unless it's me settling him, which is upsetting for DH and rough for me too. He doesn't seem to have too much issue with SA in the day time though so I'm not sure.

Weirdly his resistance to the cot is purely at BT and nighttime. He goes down for naps in it really well and sleeps soundly for up to 1.5 hours at a time without a peep.

I will try to stretch his A time a bit. In fact this morning he had a 3hour A time followed by a perfect 1.5 hour nap and woke really happy so we'll see how tonight goes.

To be honest I'm going to have to APOP a little this week I think as we're moving house on Thurs and there's so much change going on for him that it's going to be difficult to implement any major changes just now. I SO hoping that settling him in his own room will help him to sleep better as he'll be disturbed less, but I may be delusional about this now ;-)

[clazzat]

They can often be in a lot of pain with teething at night when they are showing no signs during the day - when there is plenty to distract them they don't fuss so much - and also lying down makes it worse, so it could still be teething. I think it is worth giving him meds for a few days until you are sure that the teeth have cut through and are not causing trouble.

We have gone through periods of waking shortly after bedtime which didn't seem to have any rhyme or reason - we did use to apop through them as we knew that they were independent sleepers and would get back to it when whatever it was had passed. Especially in your case, with moving house and all, I would apop when you need to so that you are not battling one set of problems for a few days and then a whole new set of problems when you move in a few days' time.

I have never done pupd with mine, but the way we have worked out to settle x is to sit in the room with him shushing and reassuring but not touching him at all - if we touch him he tries to get out of the cot so he doesn't settle. It is worth trying a few different things to see what will work best for you and your lo.

[katie80]

I completely agree with all of what Clare has said! I too would just do your best to get him through the week of moving with minimal disruption and then work on getting him settled at the new place before you start doing a bunch of routine/settling tweaks.

As for him not wanting DH, that's a pretty normal phase for LOs to go through. I know Bec dealt with that a bit, so I'm sure when she has a chance, she'll chime in. I would say just keep having him be active in DS's routine at other times during the day and eventually he'll come around to dad helping out at night again too.

Good luck on the move!

[minty007]

Thanks so much everyone.

I guess I'll try to keep his routine as much as possible and re-focus on his NW after we're settled in our new home.

Funnily enough, DH decided to try to do LO's bedtime routine last night so I kept pretty much out of it and let him get on with it. LO whinged a fair bit and refused his bottle at first, but DH was very gentle but persistent and after a while LO settled right down and went to sleep. He didn't wake again until 12.30am - the first time in more than a week that he hasn't woken several times in the few hours after bt. I've no idea whether it was related to DH settling him or the fact that his BT got moved a bit later as he took longer to settle for him, but I'm hopeful that it's the start of something (I'm always hopeful!! ;-)

Right off to continue packing. I'll update after the much-awaited move.

Thanks again ladies.

[katie80]

 

[minty007]

Sorry - just had to update really quickly as I'm happy :-)

One feed over night!!! Yay! He seems to have phased out the early morning feed and now feeds once around 1-2am and not again until he wakes at 7-7.30am.

He's still having NWs (and evening wakings!) but at least he's becoming easier to settle without having to resort to BF him back to sleep. Feels like a little victory (I hope I don't speak too soon!)

[katie80]

Great! We always love to hear positive updates!

[clazzat]

Good news! Long may it last.