My 6.5mo thinks sleep is for losers!

[minty007]

I've actually never done a DF...couldn't seem to do it properly without fully waking him and then having to resettle him for ages so I never did it more than a few times. It also didn't seem to extend his sleep any more - he still woke up just as often unfortunately!

[clazzat]

Not sure if I can really see what is wrong, but I wonder if maybe it is a bit of ut creeping in. When my folks were that age, I was aiming for a slightly shorter am nap with a longer pm nap - perhaps the fact that he gets such a long nap so early in the day is meaning that he doesn't see the need to sleep all night, iyswim?  Could you maybe try shaving 15 minutes off the first nap and then hopefully tacking it on to the second nap, so he is not getting less sleep overall, but you're just shifting it a bit?

[minty007]

Thank you! That's a good idea - I'll try it.

To update, things are carrying on the same with him waking up around 2-3am and being up for at least 2 hours regardless of what I do, seemingly UT. He does have a long morning nap and often a shorter pm one so you may well be right that he's using it to make up for the NW.

I'll give it a go and let you know what happens. Thanks so much for all the suggestions, you give me hope!

[minty007]

Right, I'm back :-)

A quick update before I launch into questions ;-)

LO is now nearly 8mo and the daytime EASY is going really well. His day time naps are generally good and predictable although he's showing sleepy times earlier for his morning nap now (I read about the 2,3,4 babies...I'm wondering whether he's one of those as it kind of fits).

7am WU and BF
8am breakfast
9.15-9.30am nap for 1.5 hours
11am BF
12pm lunch
2-2.30pm nap for 1.5 hours
3.30-4pm BF
5pm dinner
6.15 bath then bottle of around 6-7oz
7-7.30pm sleep

The NW are currently happening at some point between 12.30-2am, when I usually feed (I'm trying not to feed before 5 hours have passed since last feed) and he's recently been going straight back to sleep which is an improvement.

Next NW is often around 4-4.30am when i usually can resettle without a feed by flipping him onto his front (he's a tummy sleeper but rolls onto his back at night and can't seem to roll back even though he can in the day). He then sometimes wakes for a feed around 6am but seems to have been phasing this out the past few nights and has been going straight through to his 7am WU feed which is great.

The previous problem of long NWs seems to (touch wood) have sorted itself out. The NEW problem (there's always something!) is that he's become a NIGHTMARE to get to sleep in the evening. He goes down fairly easily after his bt routine at 7pm ish, but for the last week has been waking an hour later and screaming the house down.

We tried PU/PD but I now think it's too stimulating for him as it takes hours and he thinks it's a game. The last two nights we've tried a version of shush/pat whereby we avoid lifting him from the cot and try to settle him by placing a hand on him and soothing with our voices, so he knows we're there but learns that he has to go to sleep in his cot. It works eventually but last night it took 2 hours of alternating between mantra crying and literally screaming. It was horrendous for all of us.

I probably made it worse by taking him out of the cot at one point to re-check his nappy and re-burp him, just in case, and he settles straight away and goes to sleep if I'm holding him. We gave him painkillers for his teeth before bed as a bottom tooth has just burst through, but tbh it doesn't seem to bother him much in the day.

Anyway, eventually he calmed down and went to sleep in his cot (it was 9.30pm by this point) and woke at 1.30am for a feed as usual.

My questions are:

Do you think we're doing this wrong? Should we persevere with PU/PD or now that we've started to keep him in his cot at BT should we stay with that? I HATE hearing him cry, but he's reassured all the time, he's never left alone and I'm confident that he's not in any pain, just fighting sleep tooth and nail. We're desperate to get him to settle better in his cot (we were co-sleeping on and off before out of desperation) as we're moving to our new house next week and want to start transitioning him to his own room.

Is it still feasible that he needs 2 NFs at his age? I don't mind feeding him if he'll go straight back to sleep but i don't want to perpetuate a prop and I've no idea how to tell which it is I'm doing.

Could he be OT by bedtime? Should i try to tweak his routine? I can't work out if he's OT or UT and frustrated as he doesn't feel tired.

Sorry for the essay and all the questions...I feel like we're SO close to working this all out but it's one step forward and two back atm.

Thanks for any responses :-)

[katie80]

Hi there, I'm just jumping in to help out a bit.  I'll admit I haven't had time to read all the way back through the thread, so if I re-ask a question or talk about something you've already tried, please forgive me.  And, if there's something else I need to know, just point it out.

Do you think we're doing this wrong? Should we persevere with PU/PD or now that we've started to keep him in his cot at BT should we stay with that?

I would say if you think PUPD is too stimulating for him, then stick with settling him in the cot.  If you need to check a nappy or re-burp, do it right away when you go to him and then lay him down to settle.

Is it still feasible that he needs 2 NFs at his age? I don't mind feeding him if he'll go straight back to sleep but i don't want to perpetuate a prop and I've no idea how to tell which it is I'm doing.

It's not likely he still needs 2 NF at his age, but it sounds like he's phasing that early morning one out, so hopefully you're on your way there.  And honestly, I've always leaned toward feeding at that early morning time, so as not to get stuck in an EW pattern as that seems to perpetuate itself.  I think it's reasonable to expect him to go about 8hr before a feed at this point. 

Could he be OT by bedtime? Should i try to tweak his routine? I can't work out if he's OT or UT and frustrated as he doesn't feel tired.

Typically waking like that an hour after being put to sleep is OT (maybe OS), but his routine looks just fine for his age, so I'm not sure.  It could be that he's a 2-3-4 baby, but as they get older even those babies start to stretch/even their A times out.  I wonder if you evened out the day a little bit with a longer A time in the morning, it might make for a better night.  Otherwise, he could be waking from discomfort.  Is he currently getting any teeth? Does he eat dinner close to BT or anything that could be causing indigestion?

[minty007]

Thanks so much for your reply.

His first two teeth have just come through so I think that may be part of it although he doesn't seemed troubled by them in the day. I actually moved his dinnertime earlier to 4.30pm ish to avoid causing tummy problems at night but it's not made a difference yet.

I think you're right re the morning feed as the past couple of nights he hasn't woken for the 6am feed and has stretched until 7am WU time. In fact, last night he woke several times but didn't want to feed at all so I definitely think hunger isn't the issue...maybe discomfort or SA. It has become really tough for anyone but me to settle him in the evening or at night. He will scream with DH no matter what he does until I come to the 'rescue'. He's absolutely fine in the daytime with him (and other family members) but at night he goes into meltdown unless it's me settling him, which is upsetting for DH and rough for me too. He doesn't seem to have too much issue with SA in the day time though so I'm not sure.

Weirdly his resistance to the cot is purely at BT and nighttime. He goes down for naps in it really well and sleeps soundly for up to 1.5 hours at a time without a peep.

I will try to stretch his A time a bit. In fact this morning he had a 3hour A time followed by a perfect 1.5 hour nap and woke really happy so we'll see how tonight goes.

To be honest I'm going to have to APOP a little this week I think as we're moving house on Thurs and there's so much change going on for him that it's going to be difficult to implement any major changes just now. I SO hoping that settling him in his own room will help him to sleep better as he'll be disturbed less, but I may be delusional about this now ;-)

[clazzat]

They can often be in a lot of pain with teething at night when they are showing no signs during the day - when there is plenty to distract them they don't fuss so much - and also lying down makes it worse, so it could still be teething. I think it is worth giving him meds for a few days until you are sure that the teeth have cut through and are not causing trouble.

We have gone through periods of waking shortly after bedtime which didn't seem to have any rhyme or reason - we did use to apop through them as we knew that they were independent sleepers and would get back to it when whatever it was had passed. Especially in your case, with moving house and all, I would apop when you need to so that you are not battling one set of problems for a few days and then a whole new set of problems when you move in a few days' time.

I have never done pupd with mine, but the way we have worked out to settle x is to sit in the room with him shushing and reassuring but not touching him at all - if we touch him he tries to get out of the cot so he doesn't settle. It is worth trying a few different things to see what will work best for you and your lo.

[katie80]

I completely agree with all of what Clare has said! I too would just do your best to get him through the week of moving with minimal disruption and then work on getting him settled at the new place before you start doing a bunch of routine/settling tweaks.

As for him not wanting DH, that's a pretty normal phase for LOs to go through. I know Bec dealt with that a bit, so I'm sure when she has a chance, she'll chime in. I would say just keep having him be active in DS's routine at other times during the day and eventually he'll come around to dad helping out at night again too.

Good luck on the move!

[minty007]

Thanks so much everyone.

I guess I'll try to keep his routine as much as possible and re-focus on his NW after we're settled in our new home.

Funnily enough, DH decided to try to do LO's bedtime routine last night so I kept pretty much out of it and let him get on with it. LO whinged a fair bit and refused his bottle at first, but DH was very gentle but persistent and after a while LO settled right down and went to sleep. He didn't wake again until 12.30am - the first time in more than a week that he hasn't woken several times in the few hours after bt. I've no idea whether it was related to DH settling him or the fact that his BT got moved a bit later as he took longer to settle for him, but I'm hopeful that it's the start of something (I'm always hopeful!! ;-)

Right off to continue packing. I'll update after the much-awaited move.

Thanks again ladies.

[katie80]

 

[minty007]

Sorry - just had to update really quickly as I'm happy :-)

One feed over night!!! Yay! He seems to have phased out the early morning feed and now feeds once around 1-2am and not again until he wakes at 7-7.30am.

He's still having NWs (and evening wakings!) but at least he's becoming easier to settle without having to resort to BF him back to sleep. Feels like a little victory (I hope I don't speak too soon!)

[katie80]

Great! We always love to hear positive updates!

[clazzat]

Good news! Long may it last.