11 month old still doesn't sleep well at night....PROP issues

[Mrsv4]

DD is 11 months old and still doesn't STTN (due to prop issues).  Until 1 month ago, DD slept in our bedroom (crib in our room), we've since moved her into her own room.   I think DD's EASY is pretty good.  She goes down for her naps independently (able to drop her and she settles herself.  She does have a soother, but is able to replug herself.  The problem is during the night DD wakes usually 3-4 times.  If she wakes before midnight, she usually settles back to sleep with a gentle pat.  Her wakings after midnight (typically between 1:30-2am and between 4-4:30am.  For these wakings she only wants Mom and wants to nurse.  She nurses (sometimes to sleep, sometimes not) and then will settle back in her crib (sometimes in our bed if I am too tired -bad I know ;(   We really need all of these bad habits to be done!!!  We all need sleep, it's really caught up with all of us, and I'm back to work full time in 6 weeks.  So please any advice on how to go about this.  DD's EASY is as follows:

6:00am Wake and BF
7:00am Breakfast
9:00am Nap (1.5 hours)
10:30am breastfeed
11:30am Lunch
1:30pm breastfeed
2:00pm Nap (1-1.25 hours)
4:30pm Supper
7:00-7:30pm Breastfeed and bed

Generally DD goes down easily for naps.  We've tried to back bedtime back since she ends up with a 4+ hour A time, but she just will not go to sleep,before 7pm.She cries and gets up and down over and over agian.  The trouble is that even at 7 it's a struggle getting her down.  It usually takes at least 30 min. and then she wakes a few times in the early evening (due to being OT I'm guessing).  She also seems to have some separation anixety happening with me.  Please any advice on tweaking our EASY and how to get her sleeping all night would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks!!

[becj86]

The trouble is that even at 7 it's a struggle getting her down.  It usually takes at least 30 min. and then she wakes a few times in the early evening (due to being OT I'm guessing).

I'd be guessing UT, actually. She's having a lot of day sleep - is she high sleep needs? Has she always woken this frequently at night? How is she behaving when she wakes at night?

Have a read of this: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145285.0

SA affects sleep too. These are some things you can do to help it pass as quickly as possible. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=212037.0

[Mrsv4]

Well I think her sleep needs are so high in the day because her nights are so interrupted.  She was generally a good sleeper (one night waking) until she was 5 months.  At that time she started waking frequently because she was hungry and ready for solids.  Once solids were established we had issues with bad constipation for 1.5 months, so frequent wakings due to discomfort.  After that long with night wakings the bad habits were established, and the nights have continued to have frequent night wakings. .

I have read the two links you've posted.  She has not always been a high sleep needs baby, so maybe if her nights were better her naps wouldn't be so long.
Her longest A time has always been the last of the day.  Even if she's awake 4+ hours it's a struggle.  How long would be typical? 

[becj86]

Check out this link too: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0

Generally at this age, LO's have a routine that has a short 20-30min catnap and a longer 1.5-2hr nap and a 12-13hr day. I think a lot of her waking at night is likely down to long term OT due to short-term UT at BT and the short nights.

I would suggest starting by pushing out the first A time to closer to 4hr (slowly so its not too much for her little body to cope with) and capping the PM nap to 45min, which should cut down the BT fighting.

[Mrsv4]

Thanks!  Yesterday our day was similar to what you suggested.  Her morning A time was 4 hours because I just watched her cues.  Usually at the 3 hour mark she's running her eyes, yawning, and gets whined. Yesterday she didn't and honestly at the Tim I didn't even relive th time.  I think it was a bit to long as it took 15 min for her to settle.  Anyhow she slep for an hour before older DD accidentally wok her :-s. her pm nap she woke herself at the 45 min. Mark.  This was our EASY:

6:15am wake and breastfeed.
7:am breakfast. 
9:00am snack and breastfeed
1015am nap (didn't fall asleep until 1030)
1130am wake and had lunch
2:00pm breastfeed
3:30pm nap
4:15 pm wake
5:00 pm supper
7:15pm breastfeed & bed (she fell asleep by 7:35).

She woke a 8:30pm and 9:30pm needing to be settled.  Then woke again at 11:30pm and wouldn't settle, so I fed her and then she settled back in her crib.  Again th SMS thing happened at 3:15am and then she wok fo the day at 6:15am.
I think she was OT as he had a lot less daytime sleep. 

[becj86]

Yeah, I'd say those wakings were OT. You still need one good long nap (1.5-2hr) in there to stop the OT

[Mrsv4]

Well we seemed to be doing well.  We pushed DD's am wake tIme to 3.5 hours and limited her PM nap to 45 min.  We were having an easier time settling her at bedtime and less early evening wakings (still the two wakings after midnight).  Now for the last two days she is fighting (screaming for 30-45 min) her morning nap and has refused her afternoon nap altogether (after a long time of trying).  So evenin wakings are back in addition to the other night wakings . Not sure where to go from here?

[becj86]

How long have you held steady at 3.5hr A? If its been a few days, she may just need an extra little bit of A time (just add a little bit at a time now til you hit the sweet spot). What the last few days looked like exactly?

[Mrsv4]

I'm so tired of all of this!   We seem to be getting no where.  I have bumped her A time upto 3hr 45 min.  It works ok for her morning nap (still a little resistance).  Her morning nap is typically 1.5 hours. I've tried bumping her to 4 hours in the morning but always get a short 35 min nap.   Afternoon nap is awful!   She just refuses.  She will cry and keep getting up over and over (today I tried for 1 hour with no success).  We've been doing WI/WO with no improvements.  She does better for DH but no success at all when I do it.  After fighting with her for so long I get her up because by then it's too late for a nap.  Nights are still bad.  Up lots in the early evening from being up 6+ hours before bed and still up through the night usually for 1-2 hours crying. 

Yesterday EASY:
5:45am wake and breastfeed
6:45am breakfast
9am snack
9:30-11:00am nap
11:30 lunch
2:30 breastfeed and snack
3-3:45 attempted second nap with no success
4:30 supper
6pm nurse and bed
Lots of early evening wakings, woke at 12:30 am and nursed. Up again from 4-5 am crying.

Today's EASY:
6:30 wake and nurse
7:15 breakfast
915 snack
10:15-1145 nap
1145 Lunch
2:45 breastfeed and small snack
3:30-4:30 attempted nap
4:45 supper
6pm bed and we will see what the vending/night holds.

[becj86]

How old is she now? There's a big mental leap around 12 months and it really messes with sleep - they tend to pick up quite a bit of language and they have trouble switching off.

She does sound OT though. Would you be prepared to try a super early bedtime after the refused PM nap? It tends to shift the OT EW into the night and gives you a higher chance of resettling to sleep and resetting her sleep clock. Basically what you would do is put her to bed around 4:30 or 5pm after a full bedtime routine. You may have to feed once in the night to get her through. When I did this with DS, he slept 4:30-2:30 (not so many OT wakings in the block because BT was so early, but still the OT EW) and 3-7, so got 14hr sleep overnight and was like a different child in the morning.

[Mrsv4]

She will be 1 in 9 days.  And we have certainly seen a increase in language.  She now says hello into a phone, says bye bye when she waves, mum, dad, quack, Lila (her sister), and what sounds like thank-   She's also teething (which is never ending -she only has 5 teeth.  And has learned to crawl up stairs.  She's very close to walking. 

I'll certainly try the earlier bedtime.  Thanks!

[becj86]

Oh, I was in your shoes 4 months ago. It was a pretty bad time sleep-wise but it gets better. Sometimes all I can offer is a hug and 'this too shall pass'. I hope the EBT works for her! You will likely find that sleep is a challenge for a little while yet.

[Mrsv4]

I hope so, because we haven't had good nights in 7 months and I'm due back to work in a few weeks and my little miss has to start at a sitters. 

[Erin M]

I'd also say you sound like you're headed towards 1 nap -- if you keep pushing out the AM nap and not worry about the PM nap and go for the super early bed time like Bec suggested, you're on your way to just 1 nap.  I was on one at least part of the time with all 3 of mine at that age. 

[Mrsv4]

Well yesterday I did as you ladies suggested.  It went fairly well.  This is what it looked like:

6:00 wake
1015 nap (we were later than normal as we had an appt).  She woke at the 35 minute mark, but I was able to settle her back down fairly quickly
1145 wake
5:00pm bedtime, she woke 35 min later and settled back to sleep. 
9:00pm woke wide awake until 10pm, I nursed her around 9:30 to top her up.  She then continued to doze on and off, crying out every 10-15 min.  Once she totally settled around 10:40ish she slept until 6am!!!!

So do you think she was OT OT UT?