Falls asleep on his own, just won't *stay* asleep!

[MDHmommy]

Oh my goodness, if it's not one thing...

14 month old DS is waking 1-2 times a night, and then VERY early in the morning between 5:15 and 5:30 always on-the-dot.

We have done PD at about 10 months, and it worked, he slept through (ST) after about 3-4 days of it, for about 2 nights then stopped.

At about 12.5 or 13 mos we did Wi/Wo, it worked, he ST after 2 nights of it, for about 2 nights then stopped.

He goes to daycare. Takes one nap from about 12:30-2:30 sometimes 3. He's had a lot of colds and ear infections. But now has tubes in his ears, which should really solve the ear infections problem. He goes to bed at 7 with no fuss, and goes down for his naps with no fuss. In the bed, wide awake after bottle and story, sing three songs, and I leave. It's rare to have to Wi/Wo. And if I do - it's maybe twice. He's the same no matter if it's me or DH that puts him down, although that was not always the case.

So - to fix the NW's I did the Wi/Wo and PD - to teach independent sleep, and it worked for a while, but no more. I've done everything possible to help any pain from teeth to ears - to the point where we've even got tubes!! There's nothing wrong with this kid! He's totally fine. Happy as a lark, smart, right on track developmentally, and as far as I can tell, he's not in pain. So why won't he sleep?

In the night when he wakes, I go to his room, hand him his sippy of water, hand him his paci (I don't put it in his mouth for him anymore) and lie him down. Pat on tummy for a short while till settled and leave. Sometimes this works and I go back to bed, others, like last night, I have to Wi/Wo for as long as 30 minutes.

For the early wakes, I've tried W2S - which worked the first 2 nights I did it, but then stopped working even though nothing had changed. And this morning, I did Wi/Wo for about 30 minutes until he finally settled and slept until 7:15 - when I actually had to wake him up to leave for work/daycare. The thing is, that unless I intervene with W2S or this Wi/Wo that I just tried today - he does not sleep for more than 10 hours at night. The nights that he misses his bedtime because of a social obligation (extremely rare) he will sometimes sleep in - for a total of 10 hours...

Any thoughts girls? Possible that I have a baby that does not need more than 12 hours total sleep? Please say no...

[brightside]

Hi Kate!

Even though he is sleeping well at nap time I think its because he hasn't had enough sleep at night so really he is just catching up on that. The wakes at night would definitely suggest he is overtired at bedtime. Also, if he is going to bed at 7 without any fuss-could it be that he is really tired. I dread it when  Ben goes to sleep really quickly because it suggests that he was shattered and has probably gone into a deep sleep and hence a nw or early wake. Ben is brilliant at not appearing tired until its too late.

I would strongly suggest trying an earlier bedtime for a while (I do 6pm sometimes) and see if that helps. Even if Ben wakes early from these he has time to go back to sleep so he doesn't start the day overtired-kwim? Will probably take a few days to get over the overtiredness.

[MDHmommy]

So, do you think that if I put him to bed at 6 (frankly, I might try to nudge this earlier by 15 mins at a time) do you think he'll sleep later in the AM? I know that signs of overtiredness in toddlers include early wakings and NWs ... Are there others?

[Mom2katiebug]

I am struggling with my DD as well.  A good night for us is 2 NWs and a 6am roll call.  Normal is about 3NW and a 5am wakeup.  She's 15MO so just a bit older and attends daycare where she sleeps 1.5 hrs so close your LO.  I have tried WiWo and it has helped make the NWs shorter but hasn't eliminated them and it didn't do ANYTHING but tick us both off for the early wakeups.   I really have nuthin' for ya, just wanted you to know that I'm in the same exact boat.  We've haven't had a decent night's rest since she arrived!

I did read on the boards that one mom has a theory that it's a developmental glitch for a while where they only sleep 10 hours overnight cuz she'd tried everything as well and lots of LOs go through a phase of short overnight sleep around this age for which there's no explanation why it starts, nothing seems to help it, and really no explanation why it ends.  Not sure if it's true or not, but it helps me to think that it's not DD's fault!

[becky1969]

This thread interests me terribly! My LO is 13 months old, and has been having 1 NW since 10 months. We fixed with a bottle, but whereas he'd go right to sleep before after the bottle, now he's awake for an hour or more. I know it's not hunger, so am going to kick the bottle, but am frustrated as to why he is waking. It's not every night - maybe 2 out of 3.

Stacy, is 2 hours nap the norm at this age? Owen slept 2hr40 yesterday, and he woke at 11 pm and then again at 6:40 am (usually sleeps until 8am)

Also, very interested about the worry when they fall asleep right away, how that eans they are overtired. I think this is my mistake! Last night he dropped straight to sleep, and we had the NW and early morning. I'm going to play with bedtime a bit, and see if I can't fix that!

I'll be curious to see how everyone else does with this. We went for 6 months with no night wakings, and life went haywire for us at 10 months. I feel so frustrated b/c up until that point he was genearlly a fabulous sleeper. I haate the idea of sleep training again, but have come to the conclusion it's what's required. BUGGER!

[MDHmommy]

That 10 hour deal and development, i can see the point but really if you kinda look at loads of posts on here you will notice a HUGE pattern of people with 10 hour nights and over tiredness and props. They wake and dont have time to even go back to sleep or are woke up and then dont get into a pattern of knowing they need to go back to sleep.   Clearly it really seems that 10 hour nights are m ost often over tiredness and very often props!

So, it could be that because his 5:30 a wake is so close to the time when DH and I need to get up anyway, that he does not have enough time to put himself back to sleep before it's time to get up for the day?

I'd say DS is in a pattern of that - and we had been taking him to our bed from 5:30 till 6:30 just to get some more rest ourselves in the morning, he'd snuggle and play - so he probably thinks that it's time to get up for snuggle and play time at 5:30.

Ugh...the paci...I know, you've told me this before...I just am so resistant to it because he really likes it a lot - and in the evenings after dinner, before bed, it really keeps him happy...so maybe that should be a clue to me that it's time to go to BED....(aha!)

[MDHmommy]

You're probably right. We forgot to bring one to daycare one day and the teacher said he slept fine without it. AAAGGGH. I'll have to take them and put them all away somewhere (I won't throw out because things could go horribly wrong...) We keep them in a basket by the bed and he'll go upstairs just looking for one sometimes.

I've read somewhere that if you take the paci away when baby's not ready - he/she might start thumb sucking, and that can last for years and years, whereas paci usually only lasts until about 2 and can reason with kid.

Will have to talk to DH...ugh. Let's start with an earlier bedtime + trying to extend the morning like I did today, for 10 days and see what happens...(can you say ENABLER??)

[MDHmommy]

Ok, so what do you make of this?

Yesterday (after his big sleep in, remember) he took a great nap from 12:15-2:20.

Went to bed at 7:15 (15 mins earlier than usual) and went right to sleep - he stood up once and DH just lay him down and he was fine.

Woke at 11:30 for a pat and PD. (so that's 4 hours into his sleep)...

Woke at 4:30 for 30 minutes of wailing and back arching while I did PD and Wi/Wo. (5 hrs. past the 1st wake up)
I gave some tylenol after about 20 minutes, because he was crying so hard I thought he must be in pain, but I'm not sure from what?? And he started to settle down - prior to the tylenol, he was just arching his back and yelling when I lay him down.

I did hold him for a minute or so before the tylenol, just to settle him and he was clinging to me like one of those clip-on koala bears from the 80s.

Once I got him settled - he stayed settled from 5-5:07, I went back in for a PD and pat and he slept until 6:30 - so another 1.5 hours.

I feel like it's almost a SA problem? He's separating just fine at daycare - happily hugging Miss Velma and waving bye to me. But I wonder if the whole wake-from-anesthesia-and-mom's-no-where-in-sight thing might have freaked him out? I'm going to call the ENT today to have them take a look at his ears and rule out any post-op problem, he's been doing ear drops, which should keep any infection from developing, but I just can't figure out what's causing this long wake?

What do you think?

[MDHmommy]

Good plan. That has worked for us in the past. I think I'll try it again - but set a limit this time, like not more than a week. Last time I did it for over a MONTH (!!!) So that's not good either...

[becky1969]

Can I ask how you all deal with the standing in the crib? You said you put him down once, and that was enough. Do I wait until he's crying? If I hear him playing in his crib at night, do I just let him until he starts crying for me? It can go on for over an hour! And of course, DH & I can't sleep during that time (or, I should say I can't; DH usually can, the jerk).

Overtiredness seems to be our culprit. I've done some experimenting, and I've gotten him to sleep from 8 pm to 4 or 5 am on a few occasions (no bottle!!). He wakes at 4-5 am because he comes unswaddled.  yes, I'm swaddling my 13 month old. We weaned at 7 months, but started again at 9-10 months when he was teething and sleeping like crap. It worked! But now it's biting us in the butt again. Not to mention, how ridiculous that I'm swaddling a toddler! I mean, really! But weaning sucks.

[becky1969]

OK, so it's normal to wake at night and play?? We sometimes get a night when he doesn't wake, but it is rare. He only wakes once though, and when he sleeps it's totally quiet! That's a huge improvement: he used to fuss every 2 hours or so. I didn't have to intervene, but it sure kept me from having a good night's sleep!

So, you suggest just letting him play? What if he begins to cry? Do I try laying him down then, or do I just go in and soothe him while he's standing up?

[andibig]

Becky
when DD has NWs and is standing in the cot we don't lay her down.she does it herself.she knows that she needs to lay her self down not us!!
if she decided to play in the night (although shes NEVER done this) i would leave her to it.i can't make her sleep if shes not ready!DD can occ cry out at night (2nd year molars-ugh!) but unless it escalates or sounds like shes in pain i don't go in.
I have to agree with Stacy in shortening daytime sleep.i've had to cut DDs nap to 2hrs max to eliminate NWs and acheive an 11hr night.if she has a 2.5hr nap now it really messes up her night.
HTH
ANdrea

[Jyothi]

I'm really interested in this thread. I have 20 month old DD that is waking up at night several times. I go in and put her down and need to sit there until she goes back to sleep. If i don't she is screaming. This has been going on for a month now and I don;t know what to do.

Jyothi

[Layla]

Jyothi - I posted in your original thread. I would do wi/wo for your lo when she wakes at night. We all wake at night and then fall back asleep but your lo is becoming dependent on your presence to fall back asleep and with wi/wo you can teach her indep sleep again.

Layla

[MDHmommy]

Hey, I thought I'd post an update as things have changed over the course of this week. It seems that we were in an overtired cycle and that was contributing to the multiple wakes as well as the 5:30 am wake up!

We did a few things to help it:

1. At 5:30 we used Wi/Wo to extend the morning sleep. That took about 2 days total until DS was sleeping late on his own.

2. We moved bedtime back 45 minutes. New wind down starts at 6:30 - or earlier depending on how the nap goes. Bed time is 7:00 now.

3. We shifted his lunch and nap back 30 minutes.

This is going well, and for the past 3 nights he has either slept through - waking just to give a shout and put himself B2S, or, one wake for a PD and pat. So, that's good progress.

One thing I have noticed over the past 2 days is that with his nap shifted a bit earlier - it is taking him longer to go to sleep. He's playing in his crib for 20-30 minutes. And, for the past 2 days, he has woken too early (after just 1.5 or 1.75 hours sleeping) and refused to go B2S. So, I'm not sure if we should push the nap back to 12:30 again or keep it at 12...

Becky, funny, yeah, don't go in there unless he's crying!! I'd just turn off the monitor and keep the door open so you can hear him if he cries but not if he's in there talking.

Jyothi - definately do Wi/Wo to get yourself out of the room, unless you think that LO is showing signs of Sep. Anx. at other times during the day/night.

[becky1969]

I really appreciate all this information!

MDH Mommy - would you mind posting how much awake time you are having before nap and bed now? I'm curious to see if this would help us too. I recently pushed his naptime LATER so that we could easily do a 1 nap day without a 6 pm bedtime. So, he's going down at 1, and will sleep 2-2.5 hours (if swaddled). If unswaddled, I'm lucky to get about 75 minutes out of him, so overtired may be our issues too.

Stacy (and everyone else) how do you feel about having the FP aquarium in his crib at this age? When he wakes up he immediately stands up and turns it on. That's usually our clue to go in and re-swaddle (because we're idiots) and give a bottle. However, last night DH heard the aquarium go on at 11 pm, but then eventually he heard it go off and LO was quiet. He thought I went in and soothed him, but I slept right thru it! So it seems like he CAN play with the aquarium and put himself to sleep. I think we've been rushing in too quickly. Tonight we'll let him play as long as it takes until he cries.  But that still leaves my question: is it counterproductive to leave the aquarium in there, or will it help him go to sleep sooner?

[MDHmommy]

Sure - he's waking at 6:15/6:30 and is awake until 12:15/12:30 so that's 6 hours. Then a 2 hour nap. Then he's awake from 2:30 until 7 so that's 5.5 hours.

I agree with Stacy, no need to head in there unless he's crying. Playing is fine

Why do you still swaddle at this age? Seems like in your previous post you say that he's able to get himself to sleep, do you think the swaddle might be slowing him down in that area?

[becky1969]

The swaddle is a big boo-boo on my part. I weaned him at 7 months. He really did need it until then - i started trying to wean at 5 months, but he just wasn't ready until 7. We had about 2.5-3 months of successful non-swaddling, adn then he started getting 4 teeth in at once. No one was sleeping. One night out of desperation (after he was awake for over 2 hours), I swaddled, and he went right to sleep! And stayed asleep! I thought of it as a 'temporary' measure, but my LO takes 2 weeks to get in 1 tooth, so those 4 teeth took about 2 months. By then, we were thoroughly addicted to the swaddle again. I'm now weaning. We're doing 1 arm out at naps, which means he's only sleeping about 45 minutes to MAYBE 70 (after getting him to do one 2.5 hour nap in the middle of the day, this is very frustrating for both of us). So, I'm working on getting rid of the swaddle again! It may be the cause of some of the night waking (he comes unswaddled, and that wakes him up), but he just isn't able to go cold turkey, I don't think.

[becky1969]

OK, I feel like crying right now. With joy!!

LO slept thru the night last night!!! It was the talk of being OT that really hit me, and made me change our routine. He only had a 30 minute nap in the afternoon because of the unswaddled thing, so I gave him an hour nap late in the day (4:30-5:30). I thought for sure with such a late nap, he'd be a bear to put down at night. He was in his crib at 7:30, and he rolled around, moaning and groaning for about 30 minutes. I had to go in towards the end of that period for some shushing and soothing. He quickly fell asleep after that, AND SLEPT UNTIL 6:30 THIS MORNING! He did fuss a bit at 4 am (which coincided with when DH was coming to bed -LOs white noise machine had gone off accidentally), but DH just shushed him, and he went back to sleep! The best part is his arms were out of the swaddle for most of the night, including the 4 am shushing!!!

This AM, I put him down at 9:30 for a npa b/c he's really aggitated from teething (felt molar #2 this morning!), and he's still sleeping nearly 2 hours later! Unswaddled!!! I feel hopeful for the first time in weeks. I've been a slave to the swaddle again, knowing it was not good but scared of what life would be without it. Turns out, a lot of our problem is being OT.

My DH teased me this morning, because after months and months of lecturing about the dangers of being OT or overstimulated, I had not recognized LO being OT which was causing us sleep problems. To be fair, they sure are hard to read at this age! He's been cutting down on his daytime sleep drastically, and I've been moving his bedtime up by 30-60 minutes on 1 nap days, but I guess even that wasn't enough! Man, these little guys are just mini-science experiments! 

Let's hope this new trend continues!