BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: crazycanuck on January 19, 2008, 17:07:21 pm
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Hi Ladies
Well - we brought Logan to see our "alternative" dr here and he seemed to help - his 7 night wakings went down to 2 and then none - he told us we would need a couple visits though and not to expect huge improvement right away but some - and sure enough - we had two good nights and then he was up again 6 times all hours of the night - just walking in our room - half asleep not asking for anything really - we pick him up and put him back to bed but he is just up again in no time
Gate didn't work - and the putting him back in is still not working - trying to talk with him is no good and not helping as he is half asleep and doesn't hardly even know what i am saying partly because i don't think he remembers most of it - so obviously trying to do it in the middle of the night doesn't work either......we have tried taking away his blankie - being very firm with him etc., etc., nothing seems to be helping..........
SOOOOOOO we are now thinking there are some other underlying issues.......we are already waiting for allergy testing which i know he has......which can affect night sleep......he has been very sick on and off pneumonia and infection after infection needing antibiotics - start off viral and then end up bacterial - his immune system is terrible!
so we are going to go and see about going to a sleep clinic because he seems to not be able to get into a deep sleep - last night he woke and 8 times and then 2 times just woke crying........(which is a new development - waking crying now) we ask if he has bobos and sometimes he says he does but nothing comes out coherent........
we are seriously considering putting a lock on his door since DH and I are ready to kill each other as I am up nursing and dealing with newborn and dh is up continously with DS.......we both need naps and breaks and can't seem to get them....no fam here either - just a sister who has a 7 month old......i don't want him to feel scared in his room with the door locked and realize that we will still need to check on him but maybe if he thinks he can't get out eventually he will stop trying??!!! which i know won't work if its underlying health issues.........we are also going to take him to have his hair and blood tested for food intolerances etc.,
any ideas or suggestions?
we are desperate and verging on breakdown here
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Oh hun, Im so sorry. Had no idea this was still going on. You've done so well, you've tried so hard. Please dont lock his door, just hang in there abit longer. I think if the gate didnt work then ins unlikely that the door being shut will work either. I am in the middle of tea here but am going to have a think whilst cooking. Mean while Im really hoping someone else will come along with some fab advise.
Hang in there and trust your instincts :-* :-* :-* :-*
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hi clare
i just haven't had time to do allot of posting here.......
i don't want to lock the door but at some point something needs to happen because we can't go on like this......its putting so much stress on life in general....i am somewhat resentful towards him although i know i shouldn't be because it has been one thing after another with him and its affecting our ability to enjoy him and now our last child as a newborn etc., etc.,
anyone have experience with sleep disorders?? he seems to wake and be unable to get to a deep sleep.....
also he keeps telling us he has a bobo in his leg - we are gonna bring him in and have it looked at - he walks fine and everything but wth?? ???
ok gotta run....
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sarah, huge hugs.
Not sure if you've tried this, or are willing to. Have you considered putting a mattress/sleeping bag IN Logan's room and having DH sleep there for a short time?
Did the increased wake ups arrive when Jayna did?
It may not sound BW, but remember Tracy always said to go to their room (if ill etc), so they didn't come to yours.
That's all I've got, sorry.
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just read your second post. Have you had his ear, nose and throat checked? perhaps something with his nose, having trouble breathing and waking him up?
i realize it's likely not schedule related, but is he still napping? grasping at straws here for you!
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I am so sorry, I have no ideas, but I really feel for you.
Restless leg syndrome, can children get that? That's not much help, sorry....I hope things work out soon xx
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children CAN get restless leg. i believe one cause is lack of iron.
or bruxism. does he grind his teeth? i recall both of these being listed as sleep disturbers...
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tell me more!!!
he does grind his teeth!!!!!!
he was doing it last night when i was laying with him....
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Have you googled it?? I'm going to go have a look now....
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Sarah - I'm sorry you are going through this right now. It sounds tough.
I'm going to state the super obvious here so bear with me - isn't this likely to be related to Jayna's arrival? Correct me if they've been going on before she arrived but I don't remember you mentioning them like this on the due date thread.
Isn't it a manifestation of his natural uncertainties and his simply wanting to check on you? And the leg issue could simply be another way of his trying to get some attention (I'm not saying don't check it out.)
I sense this isn't what you want to hear but I do feel that locking his door might actually make things worse if this is a post-baby issue and make things harder in the long-term. I doubt I'm telling you something you don't already now.
Sam is currently waking a couple of times a night at least. He just comes down to our room. He doesn't even wake us up. I'm not advocating this for you as I know that's not the way you want to go but I'm mentioning our situation to show that older siblings do sometimes have disturbed sleep when new babies come. I expected it because the same thing happened to two of my friends -their older boys both had increased night wakings when the new baby arrived.
I think consistently returning him to his bed, not engaging in discussion and having a 'key phrase' to put him back in bed is something that takes a while to work. I would try and give that a bit more time. I would also think about anything that helps you to survive like putting on some music for him to keep him in bed. And during the day you nap when you can and get through the day. (I also don't have any family around.)
How verbal is he? Can you talk in the day about what is happening? Would he understand a reward system for staying in bed?
I know I'm sounding dismissive of all these other theories but I know what's happening in my home and what happened in my friends' homes and I see it as part of the adjustment period to Josie being here. Sam just wants to make sure his universe is still in place. My answer won't be your answer though so I hope you find one that fits you.
And I hope your other investigations provide a straightforward answer if I'm wrong.
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fwiw, add the http to the start
://sleepdisorders.about.com/od/bruxism/Bruxism_or_Teeth_Grinding.htm
://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bruxism/DS00337
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I'm guessing it is in part due to the sister's arrival, we had that issue & quite a few others I know have too.
I second the suggestion of dh trying to sleep in his room, I've done that with both my boys around the 2yo mark & it lasted maybe a month or so & I was able to start moving back to my bed. (now I get woken for toilet stops :() It made the sleep deprivation much less I *think* the fact he saw me confirmed he wasn't alone (feeling of being alone after Mummy was in Hospital with ds#1/travels with ds#2)
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hey ladies
emma- what you are suggesting is what we first thought was the issue - give it sometime etc., however 12 times up is ALLOT to be just behaviour - even just past behaviour his body should just pass out on him - kwim?
He is very verbal but when i try and talk to him about it he has NOTHING to say - in the night like I said he appears half asleep and just has incoherent babble - when we take him back to his room there is no protest nothing - he just goes back to sleep. - but only for brief periods. When he comes in he looks blank like a zombie........
I layed with him last night and he was even waking with me in bed with him and crying - crying with his eyes shut.........awake then not awake then not and on it went - so the reward thing i think is futile because he needs to remember the behaviour to get a reward for it - kwim?
We discussed laying in the room with him but concern is when DH works nights - he is gone and i will be up with Jayna - for example - he was out of his bed last night two times while I was nursing her but DH was home........and also we don't want that to become a needed habit either..........
i will check out the links you left thanks ladies
he started doing this when we were at MIL's house over the holidays.....hard to say his initial reaction to her since he was SO SICK the first week and a half we were home..........he has been sick every month for the last 4 months - no doubt because he is exhausted all the time his immune system is terrible and not the best at fighting off illness....today he was crying he wanted to sleep so bad because he was up all night
THis much insomnia is not good for development - he has slept so little compared to what he needs for his short little life so far - it makes me sad.......
He does nap once a day after lunch or just before - its hard for him since he sleep so unwel at night he is like wired all day because he pretty well wakes overtired...kwim? so this affects his behaviour as well
And DD Jayna well she is not a great napper - even if i put her in the swing or seat she still fusses to nap - she doesn't even like the props!!!! she is a 45min napper rightnow "with assistance" so napping is hard because when he goes down she sleep for a bit and then wakes sleeps for a bit then wakes so i need to be awake to calm her back to sleep......and today DH lay with logan for his nap so he stayed and got some sleep and I dealt with Jayna......
this too shall pass i suppose
emma - tell me about your slings and the best way to use them.....i have one
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You've just got me thinking...have you had his ears checked out. With my 2yo the only thing that tells me he has ear problems is broken sleep (sometimes every 45mins), paracetamol works for us & we get improved sleep... he never gets a fever & never pulls at them or even complains (even if I ask & he is VERY verbal) just has redness when the Dr checks & as he has problems with Antibiotics the Dr only recommends paracetamol for 48 hours & then see what happens & it improves.
I had lots of ear problems growing up & mostly in the day I was fine, but at night I had problems sleeping & I remember being uncomfortable enough to not be able to go back to sleep (used to climb in my parents bed at 6yo or so) but not so bad that it hurt so I cried KWIM. turned out I had a food allergy that caused my ears to block up lots & have pressure, which sorted itself out... I suspect this may be the case with ds#2 & I plan to get his ears tested as at times he complains he can't hear the TV & he too is prone to times of multiple night visits (generally when overtired too) & I actually don't think he remembers it either.
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I think Stacy has a very valid point there, a learned response, he goes into a light sleep phase & wakes up & gets out of bed. I know much of the night wanderings we had did stop after a trip away where we all slept in the same room & I actually ended up sharing the queen bed with ds#2 & so rather than him get up he got used to rolling over & going back to sleep.
We do have night wanderings here still but 9/10 times they are for the toilet, even if the first time it isn't the one 30mins later is, so I think he just doesn't quite register the first time.
Also as Stacy said we to get crying out etc & poor sleep when they are OT & I can tell you if I get OT, I sleep badly too eg last night a storm woke me at 4am & I only fell back to sleep at 6am
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Sarah - I see what you are saying about rewards. Makes no sense when he isn't conscious of anything.
Funnily enough we had a really good night with Sam last night. He woke up yesterday at 5.30am and was still so so tired. Wouldn't go back to sleep. I know what you mean about them waking in a fog. DH was going to the supermarket in the morning so I decided we were going to break this pattern. DH drove around on the way back until he was asleep. He slept from 10.30-12 - a very bizarre time. Then he went to bed at 6.45 - again VERY early for him. He did wake once but only briefly and slept until 8am. I'm hoping we've turned a corner. I agree overtiredness can become a cycle.
On the sling thing - I use it more than the norm for this website I'm guessing. When it is particularly useful is during the later afternoons and evenings. Josie's in it while Sam is having dinner, in the bath and during Sam's bedtime routine. She is sometimes awake and sometimes catnaps but it has completely removed the fussy time. Jayna is a big girl though so be careful about getting something supportive - I started when Josie was 6 pounds and she's gradually moved to 10 pounds. I didn't start when she was 10-11 pounds! I use the sling because I really feel Sam isn't 'missing out' KWIM? His life has changed very little during the day - Josie is an addition to the day: he loves to help with baths, nappies etc. But I still play with him as much as I did, read books as I did and bedtime is what it was (and there's no DH except at the weekends). I wasn't expecting it to be like this/ this easy and I put it down to the sling. Josie is using an EASY structure but currently does fall asleep 'herself' in the sling. She only cries if she's been out of the sling playing and she's overtired once I get to putting her in. Sometimes when she's asleep I put her down.
So that's my story but I know you are very committed to getting Jayna sleeping independently and establishing naps. You are more 'regular' than me but you may find slings useful sometimes. The one I've used most has been a fleece pouch called a 'peanut shell'. I have a long wrap - cuddly wrap - which I think will work more when she's heavier.
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ok so first off........i am not going to lock the door.......never would have - just coming from a place of frustration.....so no worries ladies ;)
so DH slept on a mattress in Logans room last night.........he woke every 45-1hr even with DH in the room - whining half awake - at one point he told DH he wanted him to leave - said "daddy leave daddy leave" so he said i will leave but if you get out of bed i am gonna come back in the room - sure enough DH came back to bed and logan got up - so DH went back and stayed the night with him and just calmed him when he woke
re: the learned response and big bed transition.......Logan LOVES his bed - he always talks about it and says "i love my bed"!! and he has been there for almost 5 months so i think that would be a little to delayed - and with the learned response and OT stuff I totally agree its a cycle but I think myself that the amount of waking he is doing is beyond behaviour and habit and Overtiredness........spoke to a few people incl a dr and he said its excessive that OT does not last for weeks and weeks and doesn't start a cycle like this so lengthy.........
he doesn't seem to need reassurrance as when we talk with him he gets agitated like we are keeping him from trying to get to sleep - he gets upset with us - he clearly appears frustrated he can't sleep.....to make matters worse he has a fever now and logan myself and jayna all went to bed with stuffy noses and woke with them - likely due to getting run down..........
i think the grinding teeth is behaviour and a symptom of stress and anxiety and some of his acting out is stress and anxiety re: jayna - but the night waking like he is doing seems to me to be so much more than that....
after looking he has ALL the symptoms of food intolerances and allergies...........so we are going to take him for food intolerance and sensitiity testing - so have his live blood test done - hair analysis, and going to ask to go to a sleep clinic - we are also going to immediately cut out dairy.....
some of the things we have been experiencing with him over the past 2 yrs are
irritable bowel
nightwaking
infection after infection
unexplained rashes
skin condition called keratosis pilaris - common in people with allergies or asthma/excema
i think i am going to deal with a few of these things and then go north to stay with my mom because we just can't deal with the tiredness - DH is police officer and can't go to work the way he is but i can't do it on my own either.....
thanks so much for your responses etc., i am grateful......
sarah
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Sarah,
I just briefly read the responses. I would strongly encourage you to take him to the sleep clinic. Logan's sleep issues are not new, just worse lately. When we had sleep issues with Adrian, I was advised to take him to the sleep clinic if he didn't sort himself out by age two. He too had tons of sinus and ear infections.
The sleep clinic should manage the case for you. They should observe him overnight and figure out what disturbs his sleep. Then they should send you the appropriate place to remove the underlaying problem (if it's allergies, tonsails etc..) or work with you if it is a training issue.
Many, many hugs to you. In the meantime, I'd definitely try having him in the same room in one way or the other.
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sandra
i think we are def gonna do that
i was reading about sleep apnea and logan has many of the symptoms for that - the above which but also
soaked in the morning
excessive thirst or always thirsty at night
difficult to wake from his sleep
restless sleep sleepwalking
difficult to get going after waking
mouth breathing
sleeping in odd positions
anyhow those are teh ones i can remember right now - perhaps we are dealing with sleep apnea and the allergies to boot and its just gotten worse over time to where we are now
here's hoping we figure out something
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Huge hugs to you xx
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Sarah, I just saw this. I have absolutely nothing to offer in wisdom but just wanted to send some hugs. I hope your whole family will find some restfull nights soon. :-*
Sophie
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Unfortunately i have no advise either but i just wanted to send you some more HUGS :-*