BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: crazycanuck on January 22, 2008, 20:11:30 pm
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Hi Ladies
So we went the sleep clinic today and they said Logan has insomnia for sure - they gave us an antidepressant medication typically used - which i am not thrilled to use on him at all - but for now we are going to use it until we can get to the root of what is making him unable to "shut off" at night. At this point it is better for him to start getting some real sleep and deal with eventually ridding meds when we have more answers about other things.
Dr said likely all the illness he has had lately and the birth of the baby etc., has just aggravated an issue we have always had - (Logan has only slept through the night consistently for a 2 month period once since birth)
So we will have other testing done to check for intolerances and our allergy testing (although we know they can change over time) is in March.
Wish is luck with thing getting better - we lower the dosage Dr suggested since pharm said it seemed a bit high for starting off with given his age etc.,
We have still discontinued his Dairy in the mean time and hope this will help as well. Hair Analysis and Live Blood Analysis is Friday at the nutritionist.
So here's hoping tonight we can get something resembling sleep.
Thanks so much for all your insight , hugs and advice it was greatly appreciated.
Will update about how the medication is working etc.,
Sarah :-*
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wish you all the best :-* :-*
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Really hope you get a good night tonight. :-*
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Cannot wait to check in in the morning see how it went!! Good luck xxxx
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All the best to you, good luck, I hope tonight goes well :-* :-* :-*
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Aww Sarah {{HUGS}} Hope the medication helps you, crossing my fingers :)
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Keeping my fingers crossed for you :-*
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Wow Sarah - at least you are getting somewhere!
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What sleep clinic did you go to? And how do I get there lol??
Best of luck xx
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Best of luck & I hope everything went well :-*
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wow...good news Sarah...I know you are not crazy giving those meds...but at this point just go with the flow and see where it takes you.
I am doing a sleep well dance for Logan!!! :-*
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{{{hugs}}} Sarah and ~~~sleepy vibes for Logan~~~ :-*
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Good luck
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Oh Sarah hope it helps at least you have an answer now :-*
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HI
I am going to get referred back to my specialist as my son has similar sleep issues. He takes forever to go to sleep,wakes several times every night and desperately needs more sleep.
I am in New Zealand and have yet to hear of a sleep clinic hear but will ask specialist what i can do next. Last time they said to leave him and elt him cry as he was just naughty :'( I dont agree so hopefully get a better dr this time.
Kirsty
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so first of all - hugs kirsty - i know what you are going through
thanks so much everyone
well - no change at all last night at all - so we're gonna give it a few days before we decided if its gonna make some change
my mother works in pharmacy in hospital and was suprised at dosage he gave logan - she said it was same dosage as some adults take........
hopefully in a few days we will see a difference
i did some more reading about allergies and intolerances and it seems they go hand in hand with insomnia as a major symptom - was def dissappointed yesterday there was no discussion about causes - he just threw a script at us and said take these
we are going to see our dr and see if she will call the allergist and ask to have us bumped to urgent status since we just can't continue on much longer like this
i recall there being blood testing for food allergies now as well - has anyone else heard of this???
DH is sick now and the baby is still so congested......when it rains it pours.......for two and a half years now for us...........we desp need a drought of problems in our lives.........
sarah
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{{{{hugs}}}} Sarah
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Hugs from me too. :(
Aisling x
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more hugs sarah, hope tonight is better
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Sarah, have you tried any herbal remedies to aid sleep?
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Sarah, hope meds work.
To be honest, I'm a little surprised that they didn't do a night sleep test on him and figure out where his sleep cycles go wrong. When do you have a follow up? Are they going to look at it more seriously if the allergies came back negative.
Re allergy testing, Adrian had blood allergy testing. It's supposed to be more accurate than the topical, but it takes couple of weeks to get the results back. Plus they draw tons of blood from a vain, for which I could not believe Adrian sit still (he was 2.5 years old then).
Big hugs.
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Sarah i will pray that things improve for you so you can enjoying those 2 beautiful kids of yours :-*
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hugs to you, Sarah. I sure hope this is the beginning of much more pleasant family life for everyone!
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big Hugs Sarah, I hope you find some answers soon :-*
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well ladies......the saga continues........
so i told you all i wasn't overly keen on the dr we saw and the way the appointment at the sleep clinic went - in and out here are pills and come back in 4 months - no discussion at all about causes etc.,
so.............. i called the other clinic we have here and they told me the dr i saw at the other clinic is not even qualified to work with paediatrics!!!!! :'( :o >:( needless to say i was very angry but happy i followed my gut instinct.......i lucked out HUGE and the lady had a cancellation tomorrow at 10:30 so called fam dr and had her fill out referral and we are going there tomorrow
dr at first clinic told me they wouldn't do a study on someone so young but recept at paeds clinic said they def do and was upset they had said they don't........she was also apalled that there was no discussion whatsoever about causes and treatments...........
i will ask for blood test for the allergies and in the meantime also waiting to have the hair analysis and live blood analysis done at the nutritionist on friday to paint a larger picture for me about what is going on
re: the herbal treatments - absolutely i have thought about them - however - i would still need to be doing all the searching for causes and if i try too many things at once i won't know what is working - kwim?
it's on my list
instead of the amytriptiline tonight we used a double dosage (gotten from a pharmacist) of benadryl that is actually used as a sleep aid in children - see if it helps - didn't want to do the med again since dr tomorrow may be changing things.......here's hoping tonight is better - off to my post on logans floor with the monitor to hear jayna when she wakes for feed ::) - i hope it end soon......
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Hope you have a good night ;)
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hope the appointment goes well.
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Hope it all goes well.
Wendee's (appletree) son takes antidepressants since preschool age, you may want to have a word with her :)
Don't they take a few weeks to work though? If they think it's the correct medication I wouldn't stop giving it without doctor's permission.
For benadryl, there is also other stuff that is a drowsy and Jamie uses it, works wonders. It's also antihistamines called Doxylamine succinate. They are in the German night nurse, but I have no idea about kids dosages. May want to ask the doctor about that, once they find the cause for the disturbed sleep.
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Well done Sarah and following your Mummy instincts. The other doc sounds like a quack. More hugs.
A x
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Agree on that!! Amitriptyline is what I take these days. I can't say that it's a majorly sedating med for me, just helps me sleep. It can leave you a bit "hung over" for a while in the morning. Amazing that it would be prescribed to a kidlet! Hope the new doc can fix things!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sarah, I haven't read all your posts but just the first bit but wanted to say, we had this with dd1, she never slept (and I mean never slept) for 18 months, it was reassuring for me to read this post because whenever I mention it to people (my dd is now 6 and a very good sleeper) no one believes me and says well you must have done something wrong - something that upsets me now as this was not the case. Anyhow it did improve. We went to see someone who gave us tips but the main one was definately the diary, as soon as I saw your post I thought that then I saw that it was at the end.
I don't post very often but if you every want to go 'ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh', feel free to pm me as I have been where you are now - BELIEVE ME!
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Hi Sarah, just read all your posts and wanted to add:
Our consultant for the first three! sessions wouldn't talk about the reasons for it or the solutions. So after a month I had a go. All she wanted to talk about was mine and my husbands childhood.
She read out of 'How to solve your child's sleep problems.
The bit of advice she did give that I think helped was no major simulation for at least an hour before bed time, no bright lights, no tv, no singing, no daddy coming in and get her over excited and this also helped.
Another piece of advice I would give is, could someone have him over night (and follow your routine) as my behaviour (as I was exhausted) was making it worse. If my children ever went through this I would do that as they say sleep depreviation is a form of torture and I agree - so if there is that opinion then take it or if you could one night stop at a friends and get some sleep then take it.
Hope it works out.
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>:( for the unqualified DR. good luck today. hope last night went alright.
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typing with one hand...
glad you found better place. how did it go and how did the last night went?
thinking of you.
>:( for the other dr.
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:o SARAH! That's just horrible! Is there an agency (not sure how it works in Canada) that you can report the first doctor to?
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Yikes on first doctor. So glad you followed your instincts.
Answers soon I hope - and some sleep.
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hey everyone
so thanks very much for all your posts again..........you must be sick of my grumbling by now - (esp those of you on my first and second birth threads) ;D
so today went SOOOOOOOOOO much better - the dr is actually a child psychiatrist some of my clients see but i had not yet met him - he was EXCELLENT!!! What a difference!!
He discussed Logans whole history with all the illness', rashes, trouble sleeping, what is happening now - his behaviour - how my pregnancy went with him etc., etc., etc.,GREAT!! He was awesome with Logan and very patient to sit and listen to me.
I don't think he wanted to carve the other dr but did say 10mg's of Amitryptiline was too much for a child >:(......He said they do sleep studies on babies as young as 8months old - and they are doing one on him to rule out sleep apnea - said it sounds as though from his symptoms he suffers from night terrors and nightmares and insomnia - but insomnia is often a symtpom of something else - so we rule out the apnea and then go from there......
he did say logans odd bowel movements sound often like what he see's with a gluten allergy (wheat)
thank you holly and chloe's mom for your input as well - it is def like torture what we are going through......and i know my tension is transferred to the kids so i am doing my best - unfort we don't have much fam here at all
dr did say i could keep on with the benadryl as a sleep aid for now if it didn't make him excitable and approved a larger dosage...........
re: the dr - i will make a complaint to the assoc of physicians etc, here but recept told me the dr had other complaints and the patients reported back that nothing ever really came of them........oh well - word of mouth (not slanderous of course) travels fast so i can use that if someone discuss the issue with me.......
on the brighter side of things - my 7 week old slept from 10pm last night and I had to wake her at 7:30am!!! no feeding in the night!!!!??? ;D
Sarah
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Glad to hear that you found a doctor to listen to the whole story. Sounds like a good step!
And YAY! for Jayna ;D
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That sounds very promising Sarah and yay Jayna ;)
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sounds really good.
yay for lo sleeping through!
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glad things went well, good luck!!!
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you must be sick of my grumbling by now - (esp those of you on my first and second birth threads)
Don't think that even for a second miss :-* I'm really glad that you are still updating us. And even more glad that you're getting somewhere!
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Yay Jayna....you show your big brother how to sleep!!!
Glad youa re finally getting somehwere and feel a bit more comfortable.
Here's to a better night!
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;D
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So, happy for you Sarah! When is the sleep study going to be done?
Sorry for TMI, but what's with his BMs? (Adrian's are odd too, that's why I'm asking).
Sleep terrors get worse with being overtired, so break the overtired cycle with meds would make sense.
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hey sandra
sleep study is this sunday night - DH has to go with him since i need to stay home and breastfeed jayna.......
his BM's have always been mushy (very short time we had some formed firm ones) but they are always mushy and odd colours - like sometimes they are almost orange looking and really really foul odd odours.....not just the regular poo odour.......
we would like to break the cycle but the benadryl doesn't appear to be working well as he was up all night again last night.......hasn't really skipped a beat with anything we have given him - we are gonna try a larger dosage as he approved more than we gave.......although logans tends to have a paradoxical affect with those kinds of medications - so if they say it may make excitable or drowsy - he often gets excitable..........
we had our live blood analysis done today and it was quite neat - showed allot of what we think is going on - increase in WBC's due to the cold he has now - RBC's sticking together, abnormally large amount of histamine indicators suggesting allergies, we saw a few parasites which suggest digestion issues since the stomache normally kills these in all of us, some fungus indicators which also suggest digestion issues, a few other small things but those were the major things.............really neat.....the hair analysis needs to be sent to the states - so a few weeke until we get it back and have the consultation with the nutritionist re: all results..........one more thing/appt down.........
you know life is cruel.........i just got AF back already - DD is only 7 weeks!!!!! she couldn't have waited a tad longer???!!!!! argh!!!!!
ok will be in the lounge later for a vent :'(
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My Internet was down for several days.
How did the sleep study go?
Wow, that' fascinating about the live blood test. How do they do that?
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ow wow great news!
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Just lurking cuz my 27MO DD has sleeping issues as well. A good night is only one wakeup. We've had an ocaisional spot of sleep throughs but never more than 1-2 days and I still have that "OMG! Is something wrong?!" panic when it does.
I want to follow your journey.
Lots of hugs.
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Sarah, as a long time insomniac, I can say that Benadryl works short term only. Then the body gets used to the stuff. In my case, 3 days of taking it at night. Then I might as well be taking a sugar pill. ::) You could give me 50mg and it won't phase me. Sending sleepy vibes!!!! Can't wait to hear more about the blood analysis!
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hi everyone
yeah we ixnayed the benadryl and it really wasn't helping much anyways.....
sleep study went well - of course - murphy's law - he slept better there - still woke crying and was veru jerky etc., but DH was sleeping with him.....
will get results hopefully soon and go from there......i really think the allergies are making things bad.......so we'll see what they come up with - appt isn't until March 13th but I am on cancellation list since they know we need to get some things going here due to sleep deprivation......
i am excited too get results from hair and blood analysis as well.......a few weeks for those
will come back when i get the results and let you all know what we are doing......
also - logan had a reflexology appt tonight and he layed still for a good 20 mins!!! wow!! good for him....he really enjoyed it - got really sleepy......she showed me some spots i could try and rub.....
ttys with some new answers hopefully
sarah
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Hey Sarah, WOW... I just saw this.. Poor Logan. I know you have supected allergies for a while.
Deft. sounds like some type allergy to me. They can cause lots of behavioral problems, espcially a gluten allergy.
You should order this book called: Celiac Disease by Peter H.R. Green, M.D
I have the book and will look through it tonight to see what they say about children and symptoms.
Congrats on your new baby btw, I know a little late...
Miss talking to you...
Wendy
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Hi Everyone,
thought i would drop a mini update since its been awhile......
well i was referred to a paediatrician by my fam dr after logans neck swelled up and he got another fever - she referred me and i was seen right away thanks to a connection i called in......she def thought there were some issues going on and ordered several blood tests.......
his tests came back and one was abnormal showing he had inflammation in his body somewhere - but it doesn't tell you where........so a few more were to come back and in the mean time she sent him for another x-ray to make sure his pneumonia was gone and the chest was normal - x-ray came back abnormal still and showing some kind of streaky stuff in the chest which she thought was inflammation.....radiologist thought brochitis but since he had no cough she was going with inflammation
so she put him on a puffer and when she looked in his nose she said it was quite inflammed inside - so she added a steroid nasal spray to the daily puffer (this all when he is presumably well)
then he had another test come called an IgA - it was high which can be related to some autoimmune diseases and inflam bowel diseases.......but still waiting for more pieces to the puzzle so she said she would call......
well she called end of last week and logan tested positive for celiac disease in the blood screen test......so she said i am referring you to a gastro for him - they called him and he said his values were borderline so not to stop the gluten yet.....so we are just waiting now for an appt to see him - to speak with paediatrician about the chest issues as they still need to be resolved........
allergy testing is next week and the results from logans sleep study are still awaiting.......
so we are left currently feeling like we are poisoning him if he in fact does have celiac disease......but if they do a biopsy he can't stop it yet......i have been told pos is pos and to stop it no matter what gastro says but sure as heck i am not leaving with a its not celiac answer - they need to tell me why the bloodwork is abnormal.......
his sleeping has been soso - sounds like he has a cold and is congested all the time when he sleeping - so gonna discuss having adenoids removed.....nasal spray doesn't seem to be helping yet at all and its been three weeks.......
so thats us
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Oh my goodness Sarah! At least you're getting some answers :-*
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Sarah - I had a friend who's son had the sleep study done and they found he has severe apnea. (I think they had the results the next day; not sure what's taking so long for Logan's results.) They removed his adenoids and tonsils and he's been amazing ever since. He says that his son has grown about 6 inches in about 4 months, he's not cranky all afternoon til bedtime, eating better and he's a quiet sleeper that sleeps all night. Before, if you held a phone next to him while sleeping you could hear it on the other end. A really noisy sleeper with lots of wakeups. And cranky all afternoon with lots of tantrums.
It sounds like this has been a long, long road but hopefully you're getting close to some answers. Maybe in a week or so things will be clearer.
Big hugs!
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Sarah, wow, so much for a little guy. Big hugs to you and Logan. Here's hoping you get some answers and sort all of this out soon. He's lucky to have a persistant mommy! :-*
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thanks sophiems - CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW ADDITION BY THE WAY!!!!!! ;D :D
LOVELY PIC OF YOUR BOYS!!!!
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Wow, Sarah. That's so much on your plate.
Adrian was on nasal steroid spray for about 6 months. I'm not sure if it did much. Its purpose was to prevent sinus and ear infections.
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HUGS and :-* to you all
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His symptoms and bloodwork definitely sound like celiac to me. When are they doing the biopsy? I'd wait for that before having his adenoids (or anything else removed) since if he does have celiac or is gluten intolerant even, removing that entirely from his diet could largely improve his asthma and other issues. Hugs and keep us posted.
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More hugs from me.
A x
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Sarah: I PM'd you back, now I know why you were asking me about that.
I know you feel like you are poisoning him by giving him gluten, if he does have Celiac, but if it is removed then the biopsy may show he does not have it.
I really think you have found the reason for his eczema, not sleeping, you name it.
Just because his levels were borderline, does not matter. He may not eat that much gluten, but just enough to raise the level slightly. When is his biopsy? I would push for that as soon as you can.
Gosh poor baby. He is the cutest little boy I have ever seen (well other than Zach and Tyler of course, LOL).
Okay so I am looking through my book: I would PM you, but will post it here so in case anyone else is having a similar problem.
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The biopsy is the gold seal standard for diagnosing Celiac. A duodenal biopsy will be taken. The esophagus and stomach is also biopsied if it looks abnormal.
If you have Celiac, the biopsy will show flattened villi. There can be other causes of the biopsy showing flattened villi though. They are HIV, tropical sprue, giardiasis, chorn's disease, gastroenteritis. They must be ruled out by your doctor.
Also they can MISS the celiac disease. They may biopsy sections of the mucosa that is normal and will not show flattened villi. They must take several samples to increase the chances of finding the celiac.
The book also stresses to parents that psychologically, if you don't have that piece of paper, that evidence from the biopsy that your child has celiac, you will always wonder. Even if you go off the blood test alone and he improves on a gluten free diet and thrives for years on it and is better. Then one day he slips and has gluten, but seems fine with it, and it is added back to his diet because maybe he really does not have it. Then years later he starts to have problems again.
Also on the flip side, you don't want to under-go a LIFE time diet, that can be tough, if you are not 100%.
I know you said Logan has always had dry, itchy skin, breakouts, etc. Right?
One other the other ways to test is: People with dermatitis herpetiformis, the skin manifestation of celiac disease. They can be dignosed by a biopsy of the skin immediately adjacent to the erupted blister. If it is positive, then celiac disease is confirmed.
Celiac Disease is one of the most undiagnosed autoimmune disease's. Doctors normally just say it is something else: IBS, eczema or unexplained dermatitis, chronic fatigue syndrome, lactose intolerance, etc.
Gosh there is just so much info. in this book I could go on and on. He has a lot of the symptoms, no doubt.
Also some people may have only minor symptoms.
I really think you should order this book Sarah.
I hope this helped some. If you have any particular questions, please let me know and I will see what it says.
Hugs!! Wendy
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Any news Sarah?
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Well Wendy I am reading the book and its great - there is also a video about 1.5hrs on you tube you can watch that is VERY informative
Logans test was accord to paed not positive but borderline - however another scale i saw he was a weak positive.....anyhow - i am just sitting waiting for an appt to be given for me from Hamilton to see the paed gastro specialist - I saw paed tuesday and she is going to call them and try and bug them to get us in sooner - she is also referring us to the ENT here and trying to make it urgent as Logans sleep is terrible no doubt from whatever is ailing him but we think along with paed he needs his adenoids out - it could be a manifestation of the celiac though too.........
regardless we can't wait months and months and months........his sleep has really declined again - it got not to bad but last night he was up 7 times!!!! argh!!! thank god Jayna only feeds once a night - however that said - DH is gone for nights now for the next week and I am home alone with both kids all night long - i alittle worried i might crack under the stress but i will manage........
thanks for asking and wendy thanks for the book suggestion its great.........
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Just offering more support :-*
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Thinking of you...
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Hey Sarah: I hear you about the nights alone and I could not imagine with 2 kids getting up. If you need to talk at any point, please messenger MSN me.
You know I still look through that book a lot. It is just a really good book, very interesting stuff. I am so glad you like it.
If he does have to go on a Gluten free diet, there is so much support for celiac and also tons of online stores that you can order gluten free foods.
If you don't get an appoitment soon you could always do a gluten free diet, BUT like the book says it is a major life change and I would want to be 100% sure. I would push really hard for that biospy. I hope they can get you in soon.
Please please keep us posted. Poor Logan. :(
Hang in there and I can talk anytime.
Hugs, Wendy
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Lots of hugs, Sarah. You are a very strong woman.
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more hugs from me too sarah.
forgot to mention that i have unlimited free long distance, so if you ever want to chat, PM me your number. not that i'm very wise about what is troubling you...but if you need someone to listen, i'm here!
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Any news Sarah?
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Yeah I have been wondering too. How are things going?