BabyWhispererForums.com
EAT => Breast Feeding => Topic started by: Kimberly® on May 23, 2008, 09:47:23 am
-
So I started doing a bf before bottle each feed except at night. I tried but at night she just wont take it. Thats fine by me anyway as we want to do bottle at night. I also started takeing fenugreek.
I noticed yesterday that after a bf she ate only 2oz rather then 4oz so I am hoping that means she's getting milk.
How long untill I really notice a difference with the feeds? When do I know I can stop the bottle altogether?
Also I notice this AM that her poop is runnier, the only difference is that she's getting bm and formula rather then just formula. Is this normal?
-
Hi Kimberly, You must have been working hard for your lo to go from 4 -2 oz thats great news
Bf babies do have runny poo and sometimes with seeds.
I would say lo is getting enough when she pokes out the boob, or till she refuses the bottle.
Keep going your doing fab
Kate x
-
Thanks :)
-
yup! Well done!
-
How are things going?
-
Not really sure. I am so confused. I am meeting with a LC tomorrow.
She stopped latching on all together yesterday. Cried up a storm everytime I tried. I think she's in a growth spurt though as she's also been eating more often and more in general.
Today I tried giving her the bottle first then pooping her on. It worked, but she only stayed on the one side for about 15 min and wouldn't go on the other :( She drank 3.5oz total from the bottle.
Half her bottles are EBM now as I have been pumping after every feed.
I started taking the fenugreek but had to stop as I have since found out I have an allergy to it :( I think DD has a sensitivity too as she was especially grumpy while I took it.
She's been extra grumpy and restless for 3 days now. Not sure whats up with that.
-
Kim was thinking today about this, and Karrigan refusing the breast ... could the fenugreek have changed the taste of your bm and perhaps THAT is why she refused the breast the other day? With giving her the ebm, that would have gotten her used to the taste of it again. I'd keep trying to pop her on the breast like you have been, and see how it goes. Let me know how the consult with the LC goes?
HTH
Hugs
B
-
What kind of allergic symptoms are you having?
Fenugreek can make you gassy. It can also cause gassiness in your child, although this is not too common. If you feel you need something to boost your supply, try oatmeal, domperidone etc.
I had some initial positioning issues with Kate as she had a broken clavicle, these vidoes really helped me.
http://www.gentlemothering.ca/DRNewmanVideos.html
Let us know how you get on tomorrow.
I also saw that you mentioned you are doing bottles at night. Prolactin levels peak at night and those night feeds are crucial in establishing your supply. When Kate started sleeping long stretches, I would get up to pump. You should highly consider doing that for the next while if fiddling with the latch at 3 am is too much. If you end up getting a good latch, you could also consider supplementing at the breast using a SNS until your supply meets her needs.
-
Whats an SNS? and how does it work? I've heard it mentioned but I have no idea what it is.
I have been up pumping at night the last few days. Mostly because if I don't it gets really painful from the engorgment. She wont latch at all at night. I figure we'll see about getting the days figured out first.
I picked up a couple Dr.Brown bottles, because they have a much slower flow then my normal bottles. I'm hoping that might help too.
The symptoms I had from the fenugreek was severe cramping, so bad I couldn't even move, hives and severe nausea. DD was super gassy and restless. She's still a lot more fussy then she was last week. Not sure if its related to my bfing her or not.
Beth you have a good point. I never thought of that. Its deffinitly something to look into.
I'll call you tonight and let you know how the meeting goes with the LC. She's going to do a private consult with me and try some different tricks to see if we can get DD back on.
I've been to kellymom to try and get some help too. Its been ok, but they've kind of shot down by parenting style (the BW) I didn't relise they were so against it and inadvertently answered a couple questions to other mom's with info from the book :-[ I was put in my place after that, but its made me not really want to go back. I don't exactly feel welcome there. :( Which is to bad, they have some great info.
-
I didn't realise there was a chat on Kellymom. Could you link me to that forum if you have a spare moment, I would love to see what it's like. Regardless of whether or not you agree with everything on there, it is one of the best places to go for bf advice. At this stage, if getting her to feed is important to you, you just have to push past what you don't like about the place and take advice that works. It's like anything else.
SNS: http://www.kellymom.com/newman/05lactation_aid.html
Basically a tube taped to the breast so that baby receives all supplements at the breast, helping baby to understand the breast is where we feed.
There is a video clip at the end of the other link I posted last night about using it appropriately.
Hang in there. I had difficulites starting with both my children, but it can definitely be done and is so rewarding. Hope your LC meeting goes well today.
-
Hi Kimberly. I'm sending you some hugs. Hopefully things get better for you. What made you try to BF again?? Just curious.
I hope the LC can help you out. I know how frustrating it is trying to BF and to have difficulties. Domperidone didn't help me, but I know that it has helped a lot of people and would definitely be worth talking to the LC about. That is so unfortunate that people who are supposed to be helping have acted in ways that make you not want to see them again. I hope you are able to get some proper help somewhere.
-
Domperidone will work well for most people. However, the most important thing is teaching the baby how to empty the breast effectively. Otherwise taking those meds will all be in vain.
-
Thats the part I have trouble with. When she does take to the breast she'll drink well for 5-10 min, then she falls asleep and I'm not really sure how much she's taking in at that point. Its really hard to tell.
For one day she did 4 feedings on the breast alone and was content, then she refused it after that.
Lorrie I desided to try again because I wanted to, not because everyone else wanted me too. Made it feel like there was less pressure. I've come to enjoy it when I can get her on. So I'm hoping to keep it going.
Michelle I'm going to look around and see if I can fine Domperidone, it took a long time to find the fenugreek, I couldn't find it at all last time.
If you go to kellymom.com and go to message boards you can find the chat. Its ok now that I know not to mention BW at all, it just feels weird kwim? I mean BW has been a part of my life for 3 years, its really all I know. It feels weird to be told its cruel and unproductive for bfing. I've had to swallow my pride a bit in a way I suppose. I need and want the help and I am getting that at least, but I don't want to go down the AP road either. I am trying to find the right balence for me kwim? I heard a lot of good recomendations for the sight for bfing advice and thats why I went there. I'm remaining opened minded, after all I know nothing when it comes to bfing.
-
BBL, have to go feed Kate and do some work.
I am sure you will get all the help you need on here anyway, Kimberly. I'll be back in a bit to offer any help and support I can. I do have a few ideas for you xx
-
Okay, a few minutes...
First re: domperidone. It is available on prescription where you live, I believe.
I don't really think you need to take it, because you mention being engorged etc. It seems like you have milk in there, what we need to work on is getting that milk into Karrigan's tummy directly from your breast.
You say she is feeding for 5-10 mins. Great start. Is it active feeding like in the vidoe clips I posted? Because sometimes babies will hang out at the breast and not actually feed. You need to watch the clips to know what to look for. Good active swallows etc.
It can be hard to know what they are taking in, that's for sure. But bf is different...you don't count what goes in, you count what comes out. You are looking for 5-6 good wet diapers (disposable ones). It should be as wet as if you poured 3 tablespoons of water into it, that's how heavy it should feel. And then about 3 poopies.
What I would do, is just take a day, put her directly on your breast as often as she is cueing, drop the supplements. Of course, you need to ensure you have a good latch, hopefully your lc will help you with that IRL. Feed feed feed, take a look at your diaper count and see where you stand. It is possible she may need supplements for awhile, but this is a good way to get a baseline and see where you are at with it.
I just want to say quickly, as I hear Kate stirring, that I commend you for trying this when it didn't work out last time. Like I said, I had multiple issues starting off with Kate that I didn't expect after nursing Riley for over a year. It was so hard to keep going some days with pumping, trying to latch a crying baby etc etc all with a toddler running around. I drew on my experience with Riley to keep me going, I can imagine it's all the more difficult for you as you didn't have that positive experience first time round.
These next few days and early weeks may be a trial, I think it is for most with nursing even if you are not having major issues. But chin up and plod ahead. We are with you every step of the way!
-
And thank you! I found the message boards. How on earth did I miss those? lol
-
:) they're a little hidden :P
-
So I had my meeting with the LC and little peanut decided to make a lier out of me LOL
Here I am saying I can't get her on and low and behold she latched on beautifully on the first attempt and fed for 15 min, then latched on the other and fed another 10. She only took maybe 3/4oz of EBM from the bottle and she was content. *sigh* go figure.. LOL
We'll see if it keeps up now :)
-
YAY! Did anything I said in the last post make sense to you?
-
Isn't it always the way, but it is good
Kate x
-
then yes it did :) thank you
I havn't had a chance to watch the clips today, but I will when I have a second to myself LOL
The LC was watching Karrigan and said she was drinking pretty well. Deeply as she put it.
She also gave me a couple books to read for some more tips.
Karrigan is up to 7lb 2oz (she was 6lb 12oz Sunday) she the LC says it looks like she's drinking more formula then she needs too. Probably because its easier. We switched to Dr. Brown bottles as I noticed they're slower.
She too recomended pulling out the suplimenting entirely for a day or 2. I admit I am a bit afread to do that... but I think tomorrow I'll bite the bullet and give it a go. DH will be here for back up support.
Thanks for the encouragement. It helps :) I was thinking I was nuts for doing this LOL
-
You can do it, you really can! You may be feeding very frequently at first, but I cannot stress how worth it it will be. Don't be afraid, we are all here just a post away!
*shaking my pom-poms to cheer you on*
-
I agree, you can do it, WE BELIEVE IN YOU!
Hugs
B
-
I agree too, I definitely believe in you. The less formula Kerrigan gets the more BM you'll make.
-
**sidenote~ I am LOVING the Kellymom message boards!**
-
Glade to here it :) Its ok now that I know the rule :P ;)
-
I see you enlisted support over there anyway lol ;)
Don't feel bad. I have gotten my hand slapped here on BW on many occasions for my "AP Ways". Still like it here though, just have learned to keep away from certain posts.
Okay, I'll stop sidetracking your thread now!
Hope you get on well tomorrow. I'll check in to see how you guys are getting on.
-
Michelle, the difference between the two sites though is that the moderators here do it in private, through pm, whereas Kimberly was publically told off. That would make a difference to me.
sorry for hijacking Kimberly
B
-
I'll back off this too now, I can see we are in different places with this.
Hugs to you both xx
-
hugs Michelle, nothing meant by it love the avatar!!
B
-
You can really do it, i know its scary but i fed every 1.5hrs for a week and really noticed the difference in supply. Full leaking boobs and all!!!!
Kate x
-
I already have that LOL
engorged and leaky.. yep that would be how I would discribe it.. kind of hoping that will let up a little soon.. its rather uncomfortable..
-
Don't worry...the engorged leaky boobs don't last forever. ;)
-
I hope not :P
thanks though
So far today she hasn't had a single bottle and is still manageing 2-3 hours between feeds. This is ok right?
-
Fan fricken tastic!! Congratulations, you bf'ing mom you!
B
-
That is just fabulous!!!!! You are on your way!!!!!
Keep an eye on your diapers, sounds like you are both doing great!
-
It is wonderful! Right where you want to be. You are doing great!
-
Thanks.. I'm so nervice she wont get enough suddenly.
-
If she is latching well, you are watching her cues, keeping an eye on the diapers, you will be fine, you really will :)
How are you feeling about all this otherwise, I hope you are proud of yourself!
-
I am still kind of in shock. I really didn't think I could get this far.
I LOVE bfing now that it isn't painful and people are not on me 24/7 about it. I'm really happy I decided to try agian.
Thanks so much for the help and encouragement.
-
We successfully EBF for 6 feeds today :) more then I expected.
A road block has been hit though
her 10pm feed that she normally wakes for, she refused the breast for that feed. I tried for a good 10 min and she just freaked and cried. So I gave her a bottle and she ate 3oz and we just got her down.
I notice she's choking on the bottle now.. is this because she's getting used to the slower flow now? We never had this issue before.
I don't mind doing bottles at night, either EBM or formula, but I would like to do that last feed as a BF. Meaning her night wakings at 2am and 6am could be bottles. I'm thinking I might do 6am as a BF too. She is really just not interested in latching on at night. If that changes that cool too. Though the 2am feed can stay as bottle (I like to make DH do that feed so I get more sleep ;) and he likes getting to feed her too) is there a way I might encourage her to take to the breast at the last feed at night maybe??
Also is 6 feeds a day going to be enough to keep my supply going during the day??
-
I'm not sure about the bottles, I will let someone experienced with bottles answer that one. Any supplementing we did while correcting a latch was with a syringe. And the flow is not always faster with the bottle, some people have a very fast letdown...but just the difference may be confusing her right now.
Re: feeds...they say a newborn should have between 8-12 feeds in 24 hours total. The only concern I would have for you at this early stage is that those night feeds are so crucial in establishing your supply. Like I said before, I got up to pump when Kate was sleeping long stretches, and even at that, I did feel a dip sometimes as the pump is just not as effective as a baby. But it was my only option at the time, even if I woke her she would not eat and then I was left with a wode awake baby for no reason lol.
Why don't you ask Stacy for her input. She is more experienced with the whole bottle thing, and I believe Kaleb slept through early on, not sure what she did in terms of pumping at night, or she was extremely lucky and her supply was okay anyway.
YAY on your achievement for today!
-
Glad it's going good for you! ;D
PS I was glad to be past the painful feeding stage and the engorgement stage! I looked like Jordan ::)
I'm up to one month and it's not often they feel engorged, only if Leobin only has one side at night and one is full in the morning
-
Hi Glad things are going well, like Michelle says those night feeds are really important for supply so the more you do the better.
If the weight gain is good, lo happy and content between feeds, 6+ wep nappies then 6 feeds are fine, just keep an eye on it all. You may find that she will drop to 2.5 hrs after a while as they get very tired feeding at a young age and were shes used to a bottle its harder work, just watch the cues. Also there are many 'GS' up to about 6weeks so it will be a constant change in your supply, so watch out for that too.
Have you looked at the 'breastflow bottle, i use them them and i think there great take a look and see what you think http://www.breastflow.co.uk/
Its a great feeling now that your a 'BFing Mum well done you keep going your doing Fab.
Kate x
-
How's it going today?
-
Pretty much the same today. No problem BFing during the day, a little more often. We had feeds 1.5-2 hours apart, not to bad :)
But night time hit and she just didn't want to nurse. I got her on at 7:30pm and she ate for 35-40 min, after bobbing on and off for the first 10 min or so, but then 10 min later screamed in hunger, wouldn't latch on again and so I gave her a bottle and she ate 3oz. She's still out, but I'm betting she'll be up in the next half hour. I did pump when she went down though, I only got about 1oz
Its almost like I have a great supply during the day, and it drops at night. Is this even possible?
-
This is very very common and very very normal. Both my babies did this. Check out this link from Kellymom http://www.kellymom.com/babyconcerns/fussy-evening.html
Kate still clusters most evenings, so I prepare a little nursing station with food, drinks, remote control, and sit back and relax until she nurses herself into a milk coma.
Growth spurts also happen frequently these early months.
Doing great!
-
So should I try to persist with the FBing? How long do I push it for if she melts down?
We're in unformilier territory now...
-
If she is really really upset, that is totally your judgement call, Kimberly. This is new for her as well.
You will know, I would hate her to be very upset, that's not going to help anything, you know?
It may change as she gets used to nursing more.
-
Hi Kimberly, as Michelle says it is really common for supply to dip as the day goes on. Cluter feeding in the early evening will get that extra bit in her. You may find the nights a bit hit and miss for a few days till suppy ups itself, the more you feed before bed the better the nights should be.
Your doing really well, so keep going.
Kate x
-
I'll try and get her onto the breast first even if just for a few minutes. I think at this point we'll figure it out as we go.
Glade to know this is normal though, thank you.
-
Just doing my daily check in. How are things?
-
not to good today :(
She's hit a growth spurt and been eating every 1-2 hours, but its takeing forever to get her on and she keeps comming on and off. I havn't caved yet and given a bottle, but I tell you I've been close.
its my first day alone now as DH has returned to work
-
Hugs Kimberly, be strong. If you keep it up it will only be a few days of hard work and then you will be glad you've done it. Just put in your mind that your going to feed her more regular and then fit everything else around it. Its funny but when i don't have lot of time in the day i always get more done!!!
Kate x
-
I made it ;D
DD ate every 1-2 hours ALL day and evening. I didn't give in even though I wanted too by the end :-[ But even through the evening she was EBF ;D 8) I would say thats pretty successful. She's now been down since about quarter after 7 (its now 10pm) and I havn't heard a peep out of her yet.I'm hoping the worst is over (yeah right :P)
I'm feeling pretty confident though because I did make it today I can do it again I am sure. This was a real test for me.
-
Kimberly, you rock!!!!!
-
That's really great! Feels good huh?!
-
It does feel good :)
She woke up at 11:30 and I was able to get her on again, and this time no nipple sheild which is a first. I may go back to it though, because even with a good latch it HURT!! ouchies!!
we shall see.
-
It shouldn't hurt. You should feel, how do I describe it, a tugging sensation, but not pain.
What does your dh think of all this?
Growth spurts usually last a few days, then things go back to usual. They can be tough, esp when you have another child to take care of. Riley has watched more tv than I would care to admit to.
-
DH doesn't really care either way LOL although I'm sure he's glade he doesn't have to feed her all day :P
I know it shouldn't hurt. When I have the sheild she's latched exactly the same and it doesn't hurt at all, but without it really hurts. Not sure why. Maybe I'll wait till I see the LC on Tuesday maybe she will see something I can't.
-
Never used a shield, so I have no idea about that.
Maybe just the sensation?
What positions are you using to feed?
LOL at your dh. I think one of the reasons my dh loves me nursing is because I am solely responsible for all her feeds lol.
*How is Kayla adjusting?*
-
well done your doing fab. Are your nipples sore/bleeding? If so that could why. The thing with nipple shields is lo dosen't stiulate the milk as much with them on, could you try maybe once a day to feed without. I know from experience that when my nipples hurt in the begining i would bit my lip when he first lached on and after a min or so the pain would ease off. My nipples were so sore in the early days but with the help of my bm and creams, within the week it was fine. The thought of it still makes me cringe.
Kate x
-
No bleeding or cracks or anything. It only hurts while she's feeding. The longer she's on the more it hurts. I try ajusting her position and latch, but it doesn't help. It wouldn't be so bad if she weren't feeding for 20-30 min :P
It may be that I am not used to her being on the breast without the sheild. I'm taking it slow. If it starts to hurt to much I can always put the sheild back on. She still can't latch onto the left side at all without it. Though the inverted nipple is slowly coming out, so maybe soon.
We use the cradle, cross cradle, or football hold. Depends on her mood. Although on the left it has to be football. She does seem to like feeding while laying only on the one side. I did try to feed laying down lastnight but it didn't work. She just got frustrated and worked up, so I used the football hold, which calmed her, but that is when it hurt too. We're not as good woth the football hold on the right side and I am wondering if maybe the latch was off in a way I couldn't see because of the position.
-
what sort of pain is it then?
-
Kimberly, I highly highly recommend you watch those video clips I posted if you haven't done so yet. There is one about the assymentrical latch that literally saved our nursing relationship. It helps latch them on deeply, helps them feed efficiently, I can't say enough good things about it.
One thing I would watch out for is her nursing on one side. Kate had a broken clavicle and held her head in such a way that I always found myself nursing with her head lying to the same side....football on left, cross cradle on right. She developed a nasty flatspot which thankfully has rounded out so we have avoided the helmet therapy, but something to be careful of. When they nurse for long periods so frequently it is a lot of time lying on the one side.
-
The clip you need to watch is the 4th one down, called "first latch". I watched this clip every time Kate napped as a newborn, so I could visualize it in my head every time I fed her.