BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: Francy&Ricky on April 27, 2009, 08:52:12 am
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Hello everybody.
Thought I'd better start a new topic, because things have really changed from my first one http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145978.0 .
Hope this won't be too long...
Riccardo is now 19 months old and he's never been a good sleeper.
But, in the last couple of months we had many successes.
DS used to wake nearly every hour and when he woke up in the middle of the night (between 2 and 4 am) he wanted to come to our bed. And he also had many problems falling asleep on his own.
We started to give him a medication (niaprazine) to see if it could help reducing the number of NWs, and solved bedtime problems and staying in his cot problems with BW techniques. We decided to start with a proper bedtime routine (we had one but tried to be more consistent) and GW. But, after a few days, I realized there was also some manipulation in his behaviour and decided to try with WI/WO and to stick with it.
It worked, I cannot say it didn't.....He falls asleep quiet and fast (maybe also because of the medicine), we cut the number of NWs and he is not coming to our bed anymore.
But problems are still there.
And I am back again in the whirl of tiredness and I feel like I have no other possibilities to try. I feel like at the end of a blind alley....and I also feel guilty because I am his mother and I should know what is good for him and how to let him rest and sleep. But no! He still has a lot of problems.
In spite of medication and WI/WO, he still has 2/3 NWs per night and still wakes up SO EARLY (somewhere between 4.45 and 5.45 am), no matter what time he goes to bed. I don't know if it is because he is an early bird....he looks so tired and still in need of sleep when he wakes up.
And we are so tired too; he goes to bed at 8 but we cannot! So, the result is that we sleep an average of 4-5 hours per night, with NWs. I know it can be enough for some people, but not for me. I work and have no help with DS, except for DH when he is home (rarely as he works a lot...); no grandparents, aunts or other relatives and we are so yearning for sleep after almost 2 years....also because I realised to be a lot more intolerant and irritable, even towards DH and DS and I really don't like it!
Has anyone experienced a situation like ours?
Will he ever sleep better? And can I help him someway sleeping better?
Or should I simply give in?!
Sorry for the outburst...it's really a "manic monday"...
Francesca
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Can't write for long but a few things:
YES, he *will* sleep through the night at some stage, I promise!
He could just be an early bird, in which case I would give a 2 week go of getting him to bed for 7 instead of 8pm and see if that helps at all.
I would highly recommend reading Liz Pantley's book 'The No Cry Sleep Solution' - although not exactly the same as BW, she does share a number of philosophies, but leans a little more towards attachment parenting. However, she has some great ideas and also some good charts for looking at your progress - ANY progress is progress, no matter how long it takes.
Sorry, really got to go - don't give up!!
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Hi ya
Don't give up - it will get better it is a phase and he will progress from it.
I have a 3 year old and also a newborn. Our 3 year old was always a great sleeper was on EASY from 6 weeks but we had issues around 9 months and then again at just over 2. It was a mixture of teething, change as we moved to the US from the UK and also early potty training that impacted night sleeping as she wanted the toilet rather than nappy at night. we tried everything.... star charts, WI/WO, all other sorts of no cry solutions. At its peak she was taking up to 2 hours to fall asleep at bedtime and woke around 5 times. Day time naps were fine. The break through we had was when she stayed at her Grannies for a night and she slept thu - we then realised she was playing us so after 6 months and an imminent new baby we finally opted for putting a stair gate on her room and controlled crying. It took 2 days and nights but it worked. Now when we have set backs which we do - my hubby sleeps in her room on an airbed for a night or so. Stair gate is still on her room.
Don't give up - try different no cry solutions. Try to share the night duty between you - so you both get a break. He will move on from this but I know how soul destroying it can be and with lack of sleep you don't function properly.
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i agree with trying an earlier bedtmie especially if he wakes up that early. he may just be OT contributing to the EWs and NWs.
it will get better if you are consistent no matter which technique you choose to go with. personally i would try the walk in walk out, we have had great success with this.
when we do it we go in when she cries, put her back down on her back give her her lovies and blankie say sleepy time and leave (20 sec max in her room - no cuddles, no coming out of the bed, leave even if she's still crying), wait about a minute and listen to the kind of cry. if she's still really screaming we go in and repeat. wait another minute. if she's start stop crying or if it sounds like it is de-escalating then we don't go back in.
they certainly can start manipulating you at this age and consistency is key. we have had a great sleeper but had a set back after illness last week and it's so easy to get off track. luckily we did wi/wo after i was reminded by this website and we are back on track again. you will be too :)
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On the manipulation front, our daughter is nearly 4 and most nights she wakes up and comes to our room to ask if I will come to her room for a cuddle and to sleep with her. TBH, I pretty much go ahead and do this most nights as she just goes straight back to sleep (I have a double bed in her room).
When she stays with grandma or her cousins, though, we always have the 'talk' about how it is nice to not disturb other people in the night and how she needs to try and sleep all night long, blah, blah. Nearly 100% of the time when she is staying over with someone else, she does sleep all night and not disturb anyone. So, without a doubt, she is 'manipulating' me. However, I have come to the conclusion that she should *always* know that I will be there for her, including in the middle of the night. Plus, I quite like those middle of the night cuddles. BUT, I am barely awake and get on average 7 - 8 hour sleep a night, so it is not a problem for me.
My 'solution' is not for everyone, but it works for us. However, it took us a long time to get to this stage - we had the 2 hours getting to sleep stage, the wake for 2.5 hours in the middle of the night stage every night for months stage, the stalling tactics stage... you name it.
My way of coping has been to remain calm, remember it's not forever, and try to get as much sleep as I can so I can deal with it. You *will* be able to cope and, if you are consistent and calm and try to be rested yourself, you *will* see improvement, even if it takes months (years!).
I also highly recommend wi/wo like previous posters - this is something that has worked really, really well for us, particularly for actual bedtime - I remained right outside her room and pottered about doing things. At times I needed to go in and give cuddles, but I only did it for a while.
Now, though, she goes to sleep in about 10 mins flat, but I now stay in her room and read stories - we are onto quite long chapter books, so I actually really enjoy this special time with her and do not grudge that tiny 10 mins of time. Sorry for such a long post and sorry it's really about me - I just want you to know that whatever you do you will be helping you LO on the way to good night's sleep. xxxx
PS Just re-read your post and remembered you are doing wi/wo. Maybe you need to adapt it a little -- not sure exactly how, but try tweaking what you do / say and seriously consider that earlier bed-time - you might just catch a better window for him and he will go to sleep quicker and stay asleep longer - can't hurt to give it a go. (hugs)
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Girls, thanks a lot for your great support!!
I will try to stick to WI/WO and be more consistent, despite of tiredness...
I do agree with Brenda when she says maybe he is OT due to EWs and NWs and I definitely will try with an earlier bedtime, maybe beginning from 7.30 to reach, after a few days, 7.00, as Frances suggested. It can seem a contradiction in terms, but the more I read about your experiences with it, the more I convince myself it could work.
Frances, I've read Pantley's book last year and I remember she gave great tips...I will re-read it and see if I can find other ideas.
As for WI/WO I think you are right, maybe I have to do some changes. Usually I don't stay outside the door, I just leave and go back to him if he cries, but most of all, as Brenda suggested, I think we must pay more attention to the kind of cry, especially DH. He usually rushes into Ricky's room as soon as he hears a sound coming from his son, and I always have to stop him and say "wait a minute. Let's listen to the kind of cry".
I have also noticed that now we use WI/WO only for the early waking. In fact, at bedtime we have our 10-15 minutes of cuddles, books and lullabies (how precious they are, Frances you are so right!) and then within a few minutes he falls asleep alone in his cot. And for the other NWs we just go in, reassure him, sometimes give him back his dummy and he goes back to sleep within a few minutes.
But for 99% of the EWs he won't fall back asleep and around 6 am we begin our day.
So I ask to myself: does WI/WO work even if he doesn't get back to sleep? Or are we teaching him something else, e.g. that if he keeps on crying he will eventually get what he is crying for? Just a doubt, but any suggestions?
Thanks again. Sharing experiences means so much....
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Hi again Francesca (nearly name buddies!) - your night time routine sounds lovely and seems to be working great. As for making bedtime earlier - even if you just achieve 15 mins at first, that might help with his general levels of tiredness.
I certainly have found with Katie that she wakes earlier or is more 'vocal' at a NW if she is OT, so increasing your LOs overall sleep by an earlier bedtime may help out in all fronts.
As to the question: does WI/Wo work even if they don't go back to sleep.... I don't know. It's a question I have asked myself before and crying for the sake of crying is something that *does* bother me. I kind of think if a LO carries on crying, even if it is 'just' out of frustration because they can't get back to sleep, they need our help, support and understanding, so a 'modified' wi/wo with perhaps more vocal or even cuddle contact would be something that would suit me better, but this is a personal viewpoint. There is, without a doubt, a nagging thing in the back of my head too that long spells of crying may possibly teach our LOs to cry to get what they eventually want or, possibly worse, will learn to stop crying altogether because they learn they will never get what they want. I guess it's all about your own perspective and your own LOs cues. No answers, just a perspective.
BTW your LO is adorable in your avatar - lovely cheeky grin and great tousled blond hair that you just want to put your fingers in!
x
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Sorry to thread jack here, but i'm glad you posted that Frances. I did have success w/ gw, but at the best dd was waking at 6:15 & crying to 7:00. Then she got sick & I ap'd and is now waking earlier, although not as much as before. Her wakings can last a long time, and I just don't feel it's right to let her cry so much when she has a hard time falling asleep. I've been able to get her to lay down and try to fall asleep pretty easily, so as long as she tries then I take her out and comfort & try putting back down awake & repeat. I think there must be something (other than unable to sooth herself) wrong if she is laying quiet in her crib for 20 min & can't get to sleep & maybe her schedule needs adjusting (2-1 switch issues)? Hopefully I won't backtrack & end up being woken every 2 hrs like before. Anyway, I feel a lot better after reading that.
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Awww, lilflav - you just made my day. *mwah*. How old is your LO now? I used to worry about backtracking to every 2 - 3 hour wake ups but somehow, eventually, this was no longer an issue and now I don't worry about 'regression'. The 'worst' night in my recent memory was having to get up and go downstairs with Katie to try and fall asleep in the living room because she was running a fever and was too hot / scared to go back to sleep in her bed - but this was one night in perhaps the last year I have had to do something so 'extreme', so, although I haven't 'forgotten' the 'pain' of cr@ppy nights sleep for weeks and months on end, I have been able to 'get over it' lol.
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She's 15 months. When we sleep trained at 10 months I never trained for nw's, only naps & bedtime & her nights stretched out on its own. Hopefully the same will happen again. I am starting wi/wo for naps & night, usually she doesn't need me in the room, but she will have a good cry now & then. So getting used to being alone in her room will hopefully help. I know it will all be a memory one day, but I feel like I have missed out on so much (as far as being able to enjoy this time) already & don't want to miss out anymore time.
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we have never really had success with eliminating EWs - they do occasionally still happen. i consider anything earlier than 6 am too early or if she's had less than 10 hours sleep -that's too early. but if she wakes up after 6 and has had more than 10 hours sleep i just get her up.
some kids are just early risers. put to bed earlier so they get enough sleep all together.
as for how to stretch out the nights and get rid of the EWs i think that the bedtime and the sleep training you do at bedtime and during the night will go a long way to helping the early mornings.
a lot of times when DD wakes early we just take her onto the couch with us and sometimes she'll go back to sleep and sometimes not. this week i have decided no more couch time in the mornings - new baby is due in a month and i don't want to deal with DD1 at 5 am. so i started to try wi/wo when she wakes too early. yesterday she woke at 5:50 and she managed to go back to sleep on her own after 1 wi/wo and 10 min of mantra whining for another 20 min. this morning she woke at 5:55 and didn't go back to sleep but i did wi/wo twice and by 6:15 she had stopped crying altogether and just chatted for another 15 min until i got her up at 6:30 - this is a big improvement for her, usually she needs immediate attention in the morning and never just chats to herself.
mornings are the tough one for us..good luck
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Hi Fran!! I would caution against the medication. For one thing, it does not really "teach" him to sleep. It's a side effect that makes him sleepy. With most of the sedating antihistimines, the sleepy side effect lessens after you take it for awhile. So, less effective at "helping" that part. Then there are all of the other side effects. I can't find how longacting of a med this one is, which is making me nuts. (curiosity ya know.) So, imagine that you are giving him something for a fever. The med works for 4-6 hours or 6-8 hours, depending on which you use. After that time, it wears off and the fever comes back. (still with me?) I'm guessing that may be part of his early waking. Do his NW's happen at randomish times, or more consistant? OK, taking off my lil' nurse hat. ;) Agree, a consistant routine and plan for wakings is a great idea. Ditto for WI/WO. I read Pantley way back when my preemie was little and remember none of it. Does he nap during the day? Could some of this be overtired?
Loving the idea of talking to lo about staying in bed and stealing it for mine. Hang in there!!! We'll do what we can to help.
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Hi!
Jenn, thanks for your opinion on medications. I do agree with you in part. In fact we waited 18 months and tried almost everything before giving it to him. But the situation was really bad. He used to wake up every 45/60 minutes and was so tired and irritable all day that the pediatrician suggested us to try the medication just to see if it could help him find some kind of rythm in sleeping. And then we could start with sleep training too (it was impossible in that situation, we were too tired and too nervous). But, we decided together with the pediatrician, that we will gradually decrease it during the next two months till we can stop and see if he reached something similar to a sleep schedule.
I have never considered the possibility of the medication beeing responsible for his EWs. Actually, it should work all night, but as they state it is completely eliminated from the body during the night and it doesn't affect the day, I can guess the effect gradually decreases during the night. So you may be right....
NWs are not very consistent, but during the last couple of weeks we had one first NW around 10.30-11.30 pm, while the second one can happen somewhere between 1.00am (and in this case it is probable that we have more than 2 NWs) and 5.00 am.
Afternoon naps are ok. He goes to nursery school and he naps 1.00-3/3.30 pm. During weekends his afternoon nap is a little shorter and sometimes he takes also a shorter nap in the morning, thing that doesn't usually happen during school days.
Your last question is a key one I think. I am pretty sure overtiredness plays a very big role here, also considering that he goes to nursery school (very tiring for a 19 mo child, I can guess). And that's way I decided, in addition to WI/WO, to take the advice most of you gave me: try an earlier bedtime.
Usually he is asleep at around 8 pm. Yesterday I put him to bed earlier and here follows our night:
7.30 ASLEEP IN BED (no problems, he was really tired)
11.00 FIRST NW (just went in, gave him paci back and he fell back asleep)
4.40 SECOND NW (very lucky!) (same as first one, but he was more awaken and I found him standing in his cot crying when I got in)
5.00 WAKE UP (1 hour WI/WO, but didn't get back to sleep)
6.00 DAY BEGAN (milk, changing and so on...)
So we got 2 NWs, a very early waking and 1 hour WI/WO without falling back asleep.
And he was still in need of sleep, almost fell asleep in the car on our way to school....
Thanks for support.
It's great to have you there guys!
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Hi again Francesca
I'm glad you gave it a go - see what happens over the next few nights before reading anything much into an earlier bed time - fingers crossed!
Frances xx
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here too!!
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Do you think those EWs could be habitual? You could try w2s around 4 or 4:30, you'd go in a stir him, but not fully wake him. I've not used w2s for EWs, but have for naps, and I know mums who've used it with good success for EWs. I would give the early bedtime a few days to see if that helps to sort things out first, as it's easier to do than w2s ;)
I hate to suggest this, but you may want to limit his nap to no more than 2 hrs. Around 18 mos, sleep needs decrease for bubs, and many only take 1.5 hr naps and 11 - 11.5 at night. I know at that age with my dd, we had to start cutting off 30 min of her nap because she started waking at 5 if her nap was too long. I know it seems so wrong to wake them, but for us it fixed our EWs.
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Ok, before trying w2s I'll stick to the early bedtime to see what happens...
As for the nap...I see your point and think I do agree with you.
But I am not sure it will be easy because it won't be me but nursery school staff who shall wake him, but I could try...anyway, let's try one thing at a time. First early bedtime, then w2s and if things will not change, I will try cutting his nap a little.
But there is one thing I can do: cut his morning naps during weekends and at school when he is too tired.
Does it sound good?
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BTW your LO is adorable in your avatar - lovely cheeky grin and great tousled blond hair that you just want to put your fingers in!
x
Thanks Frances!! To me, he is the most beautiful not sleeping baby of the whole universe!!!!! But I am just his mom.....
PS. I'll keep u posted on how nights will be getting....
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is he sometimes taking 2 naps? this for sure could be why he is cutting his nighttime sleep short.
we have had some EWs on and off with DD and i was thinking maybe her nap should be cut down a bit - right now she does 1 x 2 hour nap like clockwork. scary to do it though! she's not such a great waker upper at the best of times.
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Ugh! I just hated the transition to one nap - it seemed to take *forever* lol! However, once we actually got into a routine of sorts we had a few blissful months of 2 - 2.5 hour naps and 'good' bedtimes. Then the whole 1 to no nap thing started.... we got there in the end though!
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Usually, he takes only one 2-2,5 hours nap in the afternoon.
But, sometimes, when he is very tired and didn't sleep well, he takes also a 45/60 min nap in the morning. Usually, it happens during the weekends. And that's what I will try to cut.
I remember just two or three episodes at school in the last 3 months.
But I agree with you girls, it could affect night sleep.....
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frances - when did your LO start trying to drop to no nap? my DD has been good with her 1 nap (doesn't fight it usually and seems to need it) but her nights are just getting shorter and shorter, and bedtime is getting later and later to avoid EWs. she's waking happy in the mornings though so i don't think she needs more night sleep.
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Ok!
During weekend we continued with early bedtime (7.30) and had less sleep during the day.
The result was: 2 nights with waking up at 5.30 and not 5.00.
Is it working? Or was it just pure chance?.....I hope not........
NWs: still 2 per night.
Let's see what will happen during the week, as DS will go to nursery school and will sleep longer in the afternoon. Just want to see if early bedtime could work alone without cutting a part of afternoon nap.
Hugs.
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No way...
Last night we had 6 NWs!!!!!!!
But I think he has a molar coming in....
I'll keep you posted. Hope it comes in soon.
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Teething is just the absolute pits.... hopefully when those big teeth come through you will cut the NWs a bit.... sorry for the 6 NWs - not nice for you all.
Brenda - our LO started to drop to one nap in the run up to age 2 - I can't remember exaclty when, but I think at about 22 months... it took until about a year later to reliably have a good run of days without a nap. Nowadays (nearly 4 yrs old), she will have a day time nap maybe once every 2 weeks or so. It sounds, in retrospect, like she needed her nap for longer, but we were having 10pm bedtimes and it was driving us all nuts!
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Hi there.
I will tell you what happened since my last post…
Now Ricky is asleep by 7.30. I tried to manage 7 but couldn’t as now it takes him more than 30 minutes to fall asleep…. ???
Last molar came finally in ( ::) thank God!) but now I guess we have milestones problem…he started to make big big efforts to speak and in just one week he came out with 8 brand new words! I am not sure this could affect sleep, but have a suspect about bedtime…
Here follows our schedule of the last few nights:
May 5
7.30
11.00
0.30
5.00
5.30
May6
7.30
10.30
11.30
3.00
5.30
May 7
7.30
9.00
11.30
5.30
May 8
7.30
11.30
1.30
4.30
5.30
May 9
7.30
5.30
May10
7.30
0.30
5.00
5.30
May 11
7.45
9.15
10.45
3.00
5.45
Do you see any improvement? I am not very positive, I just see a difference between 5 and 5.30 waking, but it is still too early. The biggest change is that he sleeps now 10 hours totally and this is one hour more. (Is it enough??)
Michelle, I think I will try with W2S at around 4.30…should he have a jolt or something like that to make it work? I think I’ve read it in Tracy’s book.
Sorry for beeing so long...
TIA
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The 5:30 does seem to be habitual, so a 4:30 w2s might be just the thing. I would just stir him in his bed, but try not to wake him totally. How long is he napping for during the day now? I"m wondering if day sleep is robbing night sleep.
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During the day he is napping 2 hours (1-3 pm), sometimes 2,5.
I thought about that too, but during last weekend he napped less (1,5 hours) but didn't sleep more...
But maybe two days are not really enough to make some difference...
I will start tonight with W2S at 4.30. Let's see....
Is 9,5-10 hours a good amount of night sleep for a 20 mo old child? I ask because, as I told you at the beginning, he does not seem truly rested when he gets up.
Thanks
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Can i jump in for a sec? Am I right in thinking that on nursery days he goes from 5.30am to 1pm with no nap? Is there any way the nursery could put him to bed earlier or do they have a fixed nap time? I went through a very similar scenario with my DS1 when he was at nursery - that long long stretch from wake up to nap just made him totally OT - and meant the nap wasn't restorative at all.
Perhaps on the weekend you could try offering him his nap at 11.30 or 12ish to see what would happen and help him catch up on the sleep. Then it might be easier to put him to bed earlier too.
What do you thin?
Anna x
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Anna,
you are right. He goes from 5.30 am to 1 pm with no nap....... :o
Up to a couple of months ago, if he was really tired they tried to make him nap during the morning, but they cannot put him to bed so they tried with the pushchair. Most of the times he refused to sleep, he was having fun....
Besides, as you guessed, they have fixed meal and nap times.
But now they don't report to see him tired...on the contrary they say he is really nice, happy, good behaving...he plays, eats, sleep...in a word, he is a very good boy.
Anyway, I agree it is too long A time, more than 7 hours! :o
And I must admit that when I pick him up in the afternoon he looks tired...
I also have another concern.
In one of my previous posts we discussed of the possibilities that sleeping too much during the day could steal night sleep. I am afraid that if he gets a 30-60 minutes nap in the morning he will be able to continue to sleep 2-2,5 hours during the afternoon. Don't you think it will be too much?
Ragarding weekends, actually he sleeps less during the afternoon, but we were trying to cut the morning nap just to make sure it did not rob night sleep....
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My suspicion is not that he's getting too much day sleep but that his morning A time is way too long. I think my fella was the same - he got used to the nap times - but eventhough he didn't look it - he was majorly OT. It's a really difficult situation when daycare has such set nap times. What I was suggesting at the weekend was that you put him down for his 1 nap much earlier. So you put him down at 11.30 ish and just let him sleep as long as he wants. Do you think he'd sleep for 2+ hours at that time? Hopefully he would - so he'd wake at 2 ish and then you could have him in bed no later than 7. It might help him catch up at the weekends?
xx
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Yes, I think this could be a solution, also to evaluate the possibility that that could be the problem, I mean OT after that long A time.
I will give it a try during next weekend.
And you are right. Most of the times OT doesn't show immediately and clearly and you don't recognize it until you make changes in the routine....
Did you solve the problem with DS1? At what age? How old is he now?
I am just wondering...am I too persistent? Too determined?
I just want him to sleep better and a sufficient amount of hours....
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I'm sorry to say I didn't solve it until I took him out of daycare - even then it took a good while before he was caught up on sleep. He's now 3.5 and still has tendencies to wake early - but it's usually much nearer to 7 now.
And you're absolutely right to be trying to get him to sleep better. For you and for him!
Good luck and let us know how it goes on the weekend.
xx
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Don't be sorry...I think I already knew the answer...
And I know he will always be a early bird...but 7 would be really great!!!!! I hope I could reach that goal too.
…maybe we just have to wait for him to grow up a little more....in this period he is reaching so many milestones and has so many stimulus….
Anyway, thanks for the support and big advices... :)
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Wow!
I don't believe we survived the weekend....
Was really horrible.
I don't know what is happening...maybe he's teething again, but sleep was a nightmare!
By now all molars came in, but maybe we are already starting with the second molars or the canine teeth...
Anyway, here is our weekend:
FRIDAY
(5.30 am Wake up)
Nursery school: nap 1-3.30
7.30 pm asleep in bed (took more than 30 minutes to fall asleep)
9.30 pm NW
11.30 pm NW
4.30 am NW
5.15 Wake up
SATURDAY
10-10.30 am Fell asleep in car on our way to supermarket and napped for something more than half a hour
2-2.30 pm nap (couldn't succeed in putting him to bed earlier, totally refused)
19.30 asleep in bed (took more than 30 minutes to fall asleep)
10 pm NW
1.15 am NW
3 am NW
3.30 am NW
4 am NW
4.30 am NW
5 am NW
6 am Wake up (7 NW!!!)
SUNDAY
11.30-12.30 am Nap after swimming pool in car on our way to MIL (she woke him up!!!)
Refuses to nap in the afternoon
19.15 pm asleep (fell asleep immediately, was exhausted)
11.30 pm NW
4 am NW
5 am NW
5.30 am Wake up
??? ??? ???
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All those NWs would indicate OT to me - and if he's so exhausted he's just falling asleep in the car, that's probably exactly what's happening. Have you tried an earlier bedtime? Going from 5:30 - 7:30 is a pretty long day. If he falls asleep in the morning, I would definitely limit it to 30 min and try for an afternoon nap - otherwise if he sleeps long in the am, I suspect the pm nap will be a no-go and then you'll have even more OT by bedtime, and more NWs. {{{{{{hugs}}}}}
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I think you are so right...
I will try to have him asleep by 7 (not easy for our everyday life, need to change a bit routines and timetables).
The only concern I have is about his schedule during the week.
He stays at DC till 4-4.30 pm.
He naps 1-3 pm or 1-3.30 pm every day and have a snack at 3.30. Is it too late (i mean 3.30 for waking up)?
I will try to give him dinner at around 6 pm (hope is not too early...) and consequently will try to anticipate a little more all our bedtime routine (bath, pijamas, book, milk and lullaby) in order to put him to bed at around 6.40-6.45 and give him some time to fall asleep on his own by 7. Do you think this could fit?
Sorry if I wasn't really clear, but I am a bit tired.... :(
TIA
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I agree an earlier bedtime would definitely help - particularly on week days when he's had that long stretch before his nap.
I know it's hard but at the weekend I think you need to try to bring his nap earlier and let him sleep as long as he likes. So that does probably mean rearranging what you do on the weekend so that you're not in the car in the morning. You're aiming for a 13 hour day with 5.5 hours A time. So if he wakes at 5.15, he's asleep for his nap no later than 10.45 - 11. Then let him sleep as long as he wants. Hopefully he'd do his 2.5 hours nap which would mean he's wake at 1.15 ish. Then have him bed at 6.30pm.
This will really help with OT - and would I suspect get rid of the NW. It won't fix the EW straight away however. That's a tough one - especially because of the late nap they do at DC. But getting rid of the NW would be a start right???
Do you think you could do a bedtime earlier than 7 - weekdays as well as weekends?
Anna x
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Now, getting rid of NW would be really more than just a start, would be really great!!!!!
Yes, I think I could do a 6.30 bedtime, but I don't know if he will be hungry before 6 and if he will fall asleep easily that early, especially weekdays (should be easier at weekends).
But maybe it will be just a matter of time as he takes this new schedule little by little.
And I could move bath to the morning, so we could save those 10-15 minutes and could do everything more relaxed and have him in bed at 6.30. Besides, I am not sure bath is always really relaxing....
What do you think?
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I think give it a go. My mistake when I was having the same probs with my DS was that I thought because he hadn't woken up from his nap til 3 that 6.30 would be too early for him to go to bed - I was still counting 5 hours from the end of the nap. But I think what's more important than A time is that the whole day is not more than 13 ish hours....
Let me know how you get on.
Anna x
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Ok!
Thanks!!
:)
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A doubt about WI/WO.
When I put him to bed and leave the room he usually doesn't cry, but once or twice calls for mummy. Up to now, every time he called, I did go to him, put him back down, gave him a little reassurance and walked out.
The same happens when he wakes up in the early morning.
Do I go right? Or should I leave him alone, unless he cries?
Things are evolving and now he uses language a lot and often calls for mommy or daddy...and I have a little confusion on this...
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yes, if he's not crying, you leave him. wi/wo is a bit like pu/pd in that respect, only it's for older bubs. With Abby, I don't go in unless she's crying - usually if she's calling for me, it's just because she doesn't want to go to sleep. If she asks for something (like a drink or potty etc.), I'll go in, give her what she's asked for and then say "ok, now it's time for night night, mommy will see you when you wake up" and usually that does it. If she continues to call for me, I might say through the door "it's time for night night" but not go in.
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Michelle,
thanks for the tip. I was not really sure.
What a weekend!
I was so determined to get rid of NW and most of all of OT, but everything and everybody were against my plan!!!!
First of all, he's teething again, canine teeth are coming in, very aching.
Then our weekend schedule was so full...too busy...and so hot...... :(
On friday afternoon we had a party at DC. Was really nice ad DS had a lot of fun, but he was really tired and what with one thing and another he went to bed at 9 pm!! Woke up several times due to teething and OT and was up at 5.45. Napped 9.30-11 and then napped again 4.30-5.30. At night we had dinner with some friends and he refused to sleep until 11 pm!!! :o
Then woke up twice and was up at 6.30. But, as we realized everybody in the house was exhausted (dog and cat included) we took him to bed with us and slept til 8.00 (kind of miracle for us).
Sunday was calm and relaxing and he was asleep by 7.30 pm, woke up just twice and slept till 7 am!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Anna and Michelle, now I am sure: you both were right. OT IS THE KEY HERE! (but these days teething is to be taken into consideration too). Yesterday he had an 11,5 hours day instead of the usual 13-15 hours, A time never exceeded 5 hours and things really improved.
I know maybe I went wrong taking him to bed with us sunday morning, but we all needed some rest and, considering how the day went on, I think we did the right thing at that moment.
Hope last night was not an isolated episode.....
I'll wait comments... ;)
TIA
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do you give him meds for teething? One night in your bed shouldn't undo all you've done as long as you're consistent afterwards. We've all been there!
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I give him a thing called Camilia. It's a homeopathic remedy, especially for teething, but I am not sure it really works for Ricky.
And when things get really hard I also give him paracetamol.
He hates all those gelly creams they sell at the chemist's. And, what's more, they are full of sugar....
If I remember right you told me about some tablets but I am not sure we can find them in Italy.
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The tablets I use are similar to the Camilia that you use. I've found I have the most success with them when I give them regularly throughout the day when dd's teething. {{{{{{hugs}}}}}}
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Ok! Massive use of Camilia, through the all day! ;D
One more concern. Now that the weather is so hot here in Italy and bedtime is earlier we have some kind of problem with dinner.
He eats wery well during the day but in the evening most of the times he refuses to eat properly and wants almost only yoghurt and milk. Is it good enough for him? Can food affect sleep?
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his eating may be off because of the teething. If he's eating well during the rest of the day, I wouldn't worry about it. It's really, really common for toddler's eating to be all over the place.
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Great!
Thanks for the reassurance and the big support!
I am trying to be positive again, in spite of last night...(NW every 45-60 min, big pain due to teething and also a bit of fever...).
I am sure things will improve and we will get some rest and will see better sleeping days...someday. meanwhile, we will stick to early bedtime and WI/WO for EW and NW.
:-*
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{{{{{{hugs}}}}}} teething is awful! It will get better!
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Ehi!
We had very bad long weekend (here in Italy the 2nd of june we celebrate the Republic's day..).
NWs every 45-60 minutes. :o
But,.........last night was really better. Only 1 NW and Wake up at 5.45 am. ;D
(I perfectly know this can be an isolated episode and therefore have no illusions about it)
We decided to quit medication (by regular decrease-it will take about a month) and stick only to sleep training (WI/WO and Early Bedtime).
The only problem is that I must find a way to persuade my husband to listen to the cry and try to avoid rushing to DS room at any sound......I say "Just wait a moment and try to interpret the cry". But, nothing, he doen't want to listen to me. He says he can't hear his son crying, that this is cruel and that he thought I would not let him cry out. I tried to explain that what I'm doing is not letting DS cry out alone....but this is DH's weak point, too sensitive to his son's cry...... ::)
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{{{{{hugs}}}}} I'm so glad you're reducing the medication. Good luck with the sleep training. And I want to encourage you to encourage dh that wi/wo is not the same thing as crying it out. It's important to listen first to your bub's cry to determine if you need to intervene, and then to intervene appropriately. Hang in there!!!
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Hi!
I hope all the mess we have now in sleeping is really due to teething (we have only 12 teeth, so I guess we still miss 8!!!) :o)...
Otherwise I really am lost, desperate...
During last week nights were really owful. NWs every 30-45-60 minutes. I don't know if it is due also to the fact that we are quitting medication (we are half-way now; it will take two more weeks to stop), but all the situation is really messy now.
He needs a lot of time to fall asleep (30-60 minutes), so the early bedtime plan is kind of messed up too.
He is now asleep by 7.15-7.30 and sleeps for a couple of hours, sometimes 3 and then the NW ballet starts...
And, last straw, he wakes up at 5 am!! And we fight against sleep for one hour (WI/WO) untill we definitively get up at 6 am!!
At that moment we are all tired, nervous and irritable.
My chemist (she is expert in natural remedies) gave us a patch medicated with Bach's flowers (Impatiens) to be changed every 24 hours. We've used it for 10 days and the second night seemed to start working: he slept through the night and woke up rested and very happy. It was wonderful, I was almost moved to tears...,but then....nothing, things got back to the start. But maybe those things need more time?
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{{{{{hugs}}}}} if he's teething, that could definitely mess things up. With my dd, we give her a homeopathic teething tablet during the day, but use ibuprofen at night. Waking at night after a few hours of sleep can often indicate OT. If he's waking at 5, what time is he napping and how long is his nap? Have you thought about trying w2s for the 5 am waking? You could go in at 4/4:30. If he's always waking at 5, that could be habitual.
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This morning woke up at 4.30 and refused to go back to sleep.
I will try with some medication such as ibuprofen or paracetamol for teething.
Most of the times he refuses to nap in the morning, especially at DC. But takes a good 2 hours nap in the afternoon (1-3 pm) at DC and 1-1,5 hours nap at home during weekends.
I analised the past few weeks and am not really sure 5 am wake up is habitual anymore. It changes a lot from one night to the next (5-5.15-5.30-5.45....) and he also had some episodes of 6 am or even 6.30 am wake up.
OT is absolutely involved, but seems like a vitious cycle now.
Moreover, he is reaching those "terrible twos" and his behaviour is changing everyday, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse: many good developments, but also lots of tantrums and misbehaviour...
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If he's taking a 2 hr nap in the afternoon, he may not need a morning nap at all. I might try moving his nap a bit earlier and moving his bedtime earlier to ward off the OT from those EWs, and that might help eliminate them. The molars can actually cause the terrible two's behavior - the tantrums, even personality changes. And they are SLOW in coming in...so hang in there!!!
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Some updates from the battlefield.
Now we have wake up between 4 and 5 am.
3-5 NWs.
Difficulties to fall asleep with throwing paci out of the cot and then calling for mommy to give it back to him (takes 30-45 minutes to fall asleep and several WIs)
Someday refusal to nap at DC too.
So, basically we have (not every day, but pretty often) a day that never ends and a total of 8-10 hours of sleep per day.
JUST CRAZY. :o :o :o
Could it be only teething??!!??...................
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it could be teething - are you medicating for the pain? If the paci is becoming an issue with NWs, you may want to wean it. he also is probably chronically OT now which isn't helping. With all the NWs and the EWs, I'd try for 2 nap days if you can to try to get him caught up. If he's waking between 4-5, when are you trying for a nap? When are you trying for bedtime?
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I was thinking about the paci too...maybe became a prop?
During weekend we were so tired and discouraged we decided to reset everything and go back to the beginning.
We tried to relax and start again from page one.
- First of all, we dropped all the medications and natural remedies we were using (I am afraid that sometimes these things can backfire).
- Then, we tried not to be anxious about sleep and bedtime (jut to avoid transferring anxciousness to DS) and be very positive about nighttime.
- Third, we decided to start a new routine, without bath (I've been doubtful about the relaxing power of it for long).
- Fourth, as here in Italy is summer, DC is going to end, days are longer and our schedule hasn't work at all till now, we completely changed it and set new timetables for the day, trying to move things forward.
- Last, but not least, WI/WO every time he will wake and at bedtime.
We will try for a couple of weeks and see what is going to happen.
Wish us good luck!
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that sounds like a great plan! If you're doing wi/wo - you could wean the paci at the same time if that's the reason he's waking. Or you could give it to him, but if he chucks it out of the bed, don't give it back and use wi/wo. It's definitely a prop if he's needing you to get it for him. Let me know how you get on!