BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: fireflymama on August 21, 2009, 13:48:57 pm
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My son is 8 months old and we are still having some problems with NW's. Just for some background info:
It took us 5 1/2 months to get LO to STTN. Before that, he was waking up every single hour and napping horribly during the day. With lots of advice and help from this site, I was able to get my LO to STTN using pu/pd. Things have improved tremendously but he has now started to wake up again. At first it was because he learned how to sit, then because he started crawling, and then because he started pulling himself up to standing...all within about 3 weeks! Ever since then (which was about a month ago), he has continued to wake up once at night, but more recently twice and last night three times!
I changed his bedtime to 8 instead of 7 and now he wakes up at 7:15 in the morning instead of 5 or 6, which is great. At night, I do pu/pd, let him mantra cry, etc. He just doesn't fall asleep!!! I end up nursing him and he falls asleep very quickly. (He's definitely not hungry at night though.) Two nights ago, when he woke at 2:15, I was determined not to nurse him. I let him cry, did pu/pd, etc for 1 1/2 hours!!! Finally, I caved and nursed him and he fell asleep within 5 minutes and slept until about 7:15. The tricky thing, is that my brother is getting married next weekend (8/29) and we will be in a hotel for 3 nights...and then the following weekend we are going to my inlaws for 2 nights. I'm not sure how to handle this NW and if it's even worth dealing with right now since his routine will be disrupted soon anyway. It's really getting difficult though, especially last night, when he woke up 3 times (about every 2 hours.) The thing is, that he gets even more upset with pu/pd. I try to just have my hand on his back but that seems to distract him too. I don't want to just let him CIO but it seems that coming into his room is making it worse.
Here's Jaden's routine. (Some days work better than others)
7:15-7:30 wakes up
7:30 E (nurse)
9/9:30 S (usually 1- 1 1/2 hours)
11:30 E (nurse)
1/1:30 S (usually 1 - 1 1/2 hours)
3:30 E (nurse)
5:30 E (nurse)
5:30 S - doesn't always fall asleep, but sometimes 30-40 minutes
7:15 bath, bedtime routine
7:30 E (nurse and bottle of formula)
7:45 S
10-11 DF (formula) He eats anywhere between 2 - 6 ounces
I'm cluster feeding at 5:30 and doing a DF because he still isn't eating solids. He had a lot of allergy issues and so we delayed introducing solids until he was 7 months. We've been trying different foods for about a month now and he's just not interested.
Thank you so much for your help. This website is amazing and I am forever grateful for all of the help that I have received. :-* :-* I will definitely post a 'success story' soon.
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Hi -
Sorry to hear things are still sort of up and down for you and Jaden. Let's try a simple routine tweak first and see if that helps. By his age, most LO's are down to just 2 naps per day of 1.5-2hrs. Judging by the length of naps he's taking, he could probably handle more A time. Slowly increasing his A time to about 3hrs and eliminating that catnap may do the trick.
I would start now on working to eliminate the NW's with the thought in the back of my mind that after the weekend, he'll have probably regressed a bit. However, it certainly won't hurt to see if some progress can be made in the next week. :)
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Thank you for your advice. Today, he ended up only taking 2 naps, so we'll see if that helps with the nw's. I put him in his crib at 9:00am and he complained, cried, etc until 10:15, when he finally fell asleep for 1 hour 40 minutes. Then at about 2:00, he seemed tired and I put him in his crib and he fell asleep within 5 minutes for a little over an hour. He was up from about 3:15 until bedtime at 8:00. I have found that he cannot handle very long A times, before starting to melt down. Also, when he's OT (because of a too long At time), he has a really hard time falling asleep. I think that was the problem with his first nap at 9. If he were to do 2 naps, when during the day would they typically be?
Thank you very much :)
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I would work toward something like this:
7am - awake
10am - nap starts
12pm - nap ends
3pm - nap starts
5pm - nap ends
8pm - bedtime
You may need to juggle A time a bit if you don't think he'll do 2 X 2hr naps. That long A time from 3:15pm until 8pm may still cause some problems. Let's give it a week and see how things are. :)
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Could it a be teething? Sofia got her first tooth at that age. I used a product called Camilia (homeopathic product-all natural). You can find it at your pharmacy. It helped us during nap and sleep times...
Dree ;)
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Thanks lilac83. I'm very hesitant to start messing with his daily routine. It took us so long to get to a good napping place that I'm scared to tweak it. Also, I'm not sure with the routine you suggested, when I'm supposed to feed him. If I feed him every 4 hours, he would be ready for a feeding during his naptime. When should I feed him???
Dree, thanks for responding. Actually I am giving him Camilia. He's been teething for months I think and still has NO teeth!!!
Last night he woke up at 2 and i let him complain, mantra cry for an hour. I didn't go into his room at all, since I feel like it makes him even more upset. He fell asleep at 3 and woke up at 7:15. I put him down for his first nap at about 9:15 and he complained for only 15 minutes or so and then fell asleep. (He's been sleeping for 45 minutes now.) I'm scared to keep him up longer before his first nap because then he often does a 30 minute OT nap.
thank you again for your help!
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I definitely understand not wanting to deal with an OT baby! However, some LO's get used to a certain time so they do act tired at that same time every day. They just need a gentle nudge to get over it. If he's touchy to A times you can move very slowly. Increasing just 1 A time by 5/10min once per week. Obviously it will take a bit longer to reach your goal, but if it helps keep OT at bay it's worth it!
In regards to feeds, a lot of LO's this age are doing well with solids, so you've got a bit of a difference there because of his allergies. When my DD's A times were increasing but before she was established on solids, I often would give her a 1/2 feed before nap if nap fell during a feed time. I would feed her in the living room and talk to her so she knew this was E time and wouldn't fall asleep. After she ate I changed her diaper to separate the E from the S a bit more and then put her to sleep.
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Thank you lilac83. Jaden seems to be teething really badly the last few nights. He woke at about 3 last night and he cried, complained, etc until 5:30, when I finally gave in and nursed him! My husband and I tried everything. Pu/pd, hand on his back, even rocking him...nothing worked except finally nursing him. I was so frustrated with myself for nursing him, but I was exhausted and it was going on 2 1/2 hours!
Do you really think that changing his day time routine would make him stop waking up at night? As far as the routine that you suggested, how do I get him to sleep for 2 hours??? I could try and extend his A times but other than that, I have no control over it (although I wish I did!!!) Your routine sounds perfect if he would actually sleep that long.
thank you so much for your help :)
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Oh no, teething! That always messes with routine! Teething can even make A times decrease a bit until the tooth cuts. So you may want to hold off making any changes until the teething has settled a bit.
His naps will probably lengthen to a consistent 1.5hrs at least when you increase his A times. He may even surprise you and throw in a 2hr nap. If he just wants two 1.5hr naps though, that's fine. If that's the case you will need to continue pushing the second A time to get that second nap to start at 2pm. He's nearing an age now where his day sleep is going to start to decrease and his A times increase. Unfortunately, if you don't stay on top of things, LO's tend to search for their missing A time during the night. ::)
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From my personal experience, when Sofia woke up in the middle of the night it was either gas or teething. If I tapped on her bum and she still continued to cry, then I knew it was teething and give her something stronger than Camilia at night...cause sometimes everybody needs their sleep...especially sleep deprived mommies.
Good luck
Dree ;)
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Thank you both for responding. Yes, teething is definitely messing with a lot right now. His night sleep is off, he's not going down for naps well. He doesn't even have one tooth yet!!!! I will hold off on making any big changes right now. I am trying to just stick with homeopathic teething remedies, but the last few nights, I ended up giving him tylenol as well. Dree, is that what you gave Sofia if she woke?
I'm leaving for my brother's wedding tomorrow. Unfortunately, I think I'll be doing a bunch of APing for bed, NWs, etc. We'll see. I'll hopefully be able to get things back on track when we come back.
Thank you so much for your help. I really appreciate it :-* :-* :-*
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For teething I always used Ibuprofen at night and Tylenol during the day. The Ibuprofen is a bit stronger and lasts longer.
Have fun at your brother's wedding! My brother is getting married in Oct, DD is the flower girl! :)
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Congratulations!! How sweet that she will be flower girl.
thanks again for all of your help :)
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Personally, I gave Sofia Tylenol at night because she needed something stronger than Camilia. ::) I hate to say it like this but it knocked her right out. ;D I was so desperate for sleep on some nights.
Camilia was used during nap time only. When her molars came in I gave her orajel (this was something I gave very very rarely...but when you here your child is hysterically crying for 30min and there is nothing working. I would cave and give her orajel) btw, orajel worked like magic. I put just a bit on the teeth and she immediately stopped crying that both my dh and I started laughing. We felt like we were in a commercial.
Please keep in mind that teething is a very long process. Think of it this way, its new teeth ripping through the gums. I never had wisedom teeth. But, I am told that is what it feels like.
Congratulations and how was the wedding?
Dree ;)
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My lo is also going thru teething, but also has learned to sit, crawl and stand in the past month and all nights are a mess but I posted in back on track so hopefully life will go back to normal soon! We have also moved and she is now in her own room so many changes in our lives ;) but regarding Baby Orajel. I have not done any research and just picked this up the other day. Is it not good to give it to them? I usually buy natural products and organic when I can but I know nothing about teething gel. She has 3 teeth coming in. I can feel them and see one :) The worse pain for them would be when it breaks skin right? Or does it hurt thru the entire process?
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I definitely understand not wanting to mess with a routine that has been working BUT we do just have to go on tweaking (messing with) their routines as they get older because their needs change! What works at 7 months isn't going to work at 8.
I think Lilac is right on the money that he needs a little more A time. How is the weaning going, did you look into that Baby Led Weaning thread?
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Hi everyone,
We got back from the wedding last night. It was a nice weekend, but honestly, quite a disaster with Jaden. He just REALLY does not adjust to any changes in his routine. He barely napped and was up all night at the hotel. By the last night (the night before the wedding), he was up every hour. I was so stressed out and unfortunately, had to miss some wedding events. I'm just so frustrated with how sensitive he is!!! I ended up doing non-stop APing and now things are all screwed up again :'(
Last night we were back home and I put Jaden to bed at his usual time, usual routine etc. He woke up every 2 hours last night. I ended up nursing him each time because I was so exhausted from the weekend that I just needed to get back to sleep myself. I'm hoping to rest today so I can try to get us back on track tonight (no more nursings). I am going to see a psychiatrist this morning. I feel like I've fallen into a depression over the past few months. At first it was just sleep deprivation but at this point, I'm just so frustrated, so angry, so resentful. I'm going to talk to the guy about possibly going on meds. I'm not very happy about this idea, but I feel like I've tried everything to feel ok but it's beyond me at this point. I feel like this mommy thing is kicking the s*** out of me :( I've worked so hard to get things in a nice place for us all but the slightest change in ANYTHING and everything is all messed up again.
Thank you all for your help and support over the past months. I would have never made it this far without you all. Much gratitude :'( :-*
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((((((hugs))))))) I totally know what you mean. It's so frustrating and disheartening. Please trust me, it does get better. The first year is basically brutal. Especially now because you feel like things *should* be getting better and it *should* be easier by now. I'm not saying things aren't ever still hard (of course they are) but it's just so much easier when they can understand a bit of what you're telling them, and can tell you a bit more what's going on with them. Just last night I was singing my LO his sleep song and he said 'no mummy, cot'. How cool that he can tell me when he just wants me to let him alone to go to sleep for pete sake!
Please don't feel like you're back to square one. All that hard work you've done in the past is going to help you get things back on an even keel when you're ready to - it's all a great foundation.
If you feel up to it, it's definitely worth posting on the PPD board. There's a lot of info about supplements that you can take to support any anti-depressants you may end up taking.
(((more hugs))) and rememnber we're all here for you, you're not going through this alone.
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Thank you Anna, so much for your support. I'll check out the PPD board.
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Hi -
So sorry to hear that things are so rough for you right now. I definitely agree with Anna that the first year is so hard. My DD was sensitive about where she napped, so if we were out she either wouldn't nap or would take a short nap. She was also super anxious about anyone but DH or me holding her, so family gatherings were tough. We left Thanksgiving without even having dinner last year. However, now things are sooo much better! She still doesn't nap when out of the house but the OT doesn't effect her like it once would have. Also she'll go by familiar family members willingly! DH and I are actually talking about having #2 when last year I think we both would have been fine if DD was our one and only, LOL!
Talking to someone and getting some meds may help. Also, is there any mommy groups in your area you can join? More than likely they'll occur during AM nap, but if it's only once or twice per week it may be worth it for you to get out and connect with people. I wish I had done more of that when DD was younger, it's amazing how human you feel after showering and getting out of the house for a hour or 2.
Getting back on track will probably only take 3-4 days, all the base work is there and you know what he needs. Hang in there, things will go back to "normal" (whatever that is with an infant!). :-*
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Thank you lilac83. Your support means so much to me, especially now. So...I saw a psychiatrist and started zoloft yesterday. We'll see how it goes. I actually did join a few mommy groups and am trying to meet other local moms in the area. It's taking time, but i feel like I'm slowly meeting people that I may click with. I'm hanging in here, looking forward to feeling better and feeling very grateful for all the love and support from this amazing site.
Thank you again to everyone :-*
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That is wonderful! Meeting people and finding support is half the battle. The medication should help so much too! Happy mommy = happy baby so that is wonderful that you're taking care of yourself!
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hi ya
I'm so sorry you're having a hard time chick, i hope things get better soon. Sorting out the sleep will help you feel better too... i've heard that sleep deprivation is used as a form of torture! Try and stay positive hun x
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Thank you everyone for your support. I'm hanging in there. Some days are better than others. Trying to stay positive.
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hi just butting in here to send you some support! i went on meds for post natal depression 6 weeks ago, i was feeling jsut as bad as you have described but am so much better already. be prepared for it to take around 4 weeks before you feel any different, i was a bit disheartened in the first few weeks when nothing seemed to change. keeping everything crossed for you and hope you're feeling stronger soon
anna :)
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Thank you so much Anna for 'butting in' and giving support. I really appreciate it. I'm gad to hear that the meds helped you and that you're feeling better now :) I've been on meds for a week so far...just trying to wait patiently for things to kick in.
thank you again :-*
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I also wanted to send you hugs...I feel pretty frustrated too as my lo is up 2-5 times a night and can fight me on naps as well. I am very sleep deprived and I know that is the bigger problem as without sleep how can you function? I hope you feel better soon and keep us posted.
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Thank you AvaMadeline for your support. I'm sorry your lo is giving you a hard time at night too. It's very frustrating and the sleep deprivation is killer! I definitely see a difference in my overall well being when I've had more sleep. Good luck with everything and thank you again. :-*
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(((hugs))) for you, hoping those A/Ds will kick in soon. If you're not taking them already, high quality fish oil (CLO or krill oil) can really improve their efficacy, and a timed-release Vit B complex supplement can help too.
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Yah, if only I remembered to take them....lol
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Thanks Anna. I'll look into that.
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hi again just checking to see how you're feeling today. any more sleep yet? catherine only woke up once last night so an improvement here! probably shouldn't speak too soon though!
anna :)
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Jaden woke up once last night too! I try not to get too excited though...but it's definitely a huge improvement!!! I'd love to see more nights like this!!!
I hope things continue to improve for you too :)
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keeping everything crossed for tonight!!
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Hi everyone,
I have a question about EASY. Jaden is now transitioning to 2 naps a day and he is finally interested in eating rice cereal. (So far, it's the only thing he's eating but I will start to slowly introduce veggies and fruits.) I'm having a hard time figuring out how to stick to EASY with 2 naps. I'm worried that he's not eating enough during the day because his nursing times are now during his sleep times.
7:30 wake and nurse
8:30 cereal (only a little bit)
10:30-12/12:30 sleep (he should nurse at 11:30)
and then it gets all screwed up...
I basically nurse him when he wakes, then try solids again. he may or may not be interested, then nap at around 3.
by late afternoon, I feel like I'm trying to cram nursings in to make up for lost nursings earlier in the day. I'm still doing the DF since he only started eating solids a few days ago.
When he was doing 3 naps I would nurse him at 7:30, 11:30, 3:30, 5:30, 7:30, 10:30 (5:30 and 10:30 nursings to fill him up for the night.)
I'm not sure how to do it now, especially because we're still trying to get back on track with naps. I put him to bed for nap at 9:30 and he's been crying for an hour or even longer before finally falling asleep. that throws the nursings behind even more! On paper, I can make a routine that looks all nice and neat, but in reality, he's not falling asleep at 10:30 or 3. It's dragging on and on.
Thank you for your help.
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Hi -
What has his routine been looking like?
Once he's more established on solids, they will help keep him full between feedings. I remember having to do a 1/2 feed before the PM nap and then the other 1/2 after the PM nap. Something like this:
7:00 - wake
7:30 - milk
10:00 - nap
11:30 - wake and milk
2:00 - 1/2 milk
2:30 - nap
4:00 - wake 1/2 milk
6:45 - milk then asleep by 7
Solids were an hour after milk feed. During this time in her life, I seriously felt like I was feeding her ALL THE TIME!!! But once she was more established on solids, at 9/10mos for her, she dropped from 4 milk feeds to 3 and things got much easier. :)
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Hi,
I'm not even sure how to answer this question. His routine is really all over the place. We had a few great days in the beginning of the week but the last few days have been a mess (with bad nights too.)
On the good days though, it looked something like this:
7:30 nurse
8:30 attempt solids
10:00-11:30/12 sleep
11:30/12 nurse
1 attempt solids
2:30/3 - 4/4:30 sleep
4/4:30 nurse
6:00 nurse
7:30 nurse & bottle
7:45/8 sleep
10:30 DF
He's was waking up at around 2 or 3 in the morning but he was able to get himself back to sleep. Then he'd wake at 5 or so and I nursed him back to sleep until 7:30.
The last few days though, he's been waking up every 2 hours but the good thing is he's been putting himself back to sleep each time, except at around 5, when I nurse him.
I'm feeling better on his good days and not very well on his bad days. I'm looking forward to feeling more stable EVERY day and not be so affected by how his days are going.
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It looks like you've got a really good routine going for him and that's great that he's resettling himself at night! It looks like he's got his longest stretch of A time before bedtime, you could try shortening that a bit and see if he starts sleeping a bit more soundly. :)
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Thank you. I'll try that. About how long of an A time would you suggest before bedtime?
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I would try to stay with around 3hrs.
HTH! :)
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This is the 5th night in a row that Jaden has woken up around 3:45/4:00 and won't go back to sleep until around 5:30. I try to let him cry a bit, I give him homeopathic teething gel, I even gave him tylenol last night in case he was really hurting. I finally nursed him at 5:30 and he fell asleep until 6. I nursed him at 6 and he slept until 8. I'm not sure why he's waking up at this time and staying up for over an hour. He had really good naps yesterday. He slept from 9:30-11:15 and then again from 2:15-4:15. He was asleep by 8. I'm wondering if I should bring his bedtime back to 7. I'm so exhausted. It's definitely making me feel much more depressed and frustrated :'(
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What is he doing when he wakes? I would highly doubt it's OT with those awesome naps he had. If anything, he may be having too much day sleep. You could try wake to sleep at around 2:45am to see if that will break the cycle.
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When he wakes, he starts off just mildly complaining. I leave him alone for a while. At some point, his complaining gets worse and worse until he's standing at the end of his crib with his arms extended shrieking for me. (We have a video monitor in his room so I can see him.) I try pu/pd, teething gel, tylenol. When it gets close to 5, I nurse him but that often means that he's been crying and complaining for over an hour. When I nurse him, he's not even that hungry but he does fall asleep. I need to read in the book how to do wake to sleep. I've never tried that. We'll see how tonight goes. I'm just curious why he's doing this now. Last week, on a good night, he'd sleep until about 5 and then i'd nurse him back to sleep until 7/7:30. I'm not psyched about getting up with him at 5 but if nursing him gives me another 2/2.5 hours, I'll do it. It's just that now, he's up for over an hour before 5!
Thank you very much for your help.
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Do you think he could be going through a growth spurt and that's why he's hungrier earlier? Here's a link about wake to sleep: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0 This link is mostly about naps, but it's the same for nights you would just use it about 1hr before he normally wakes.
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Lilac83, such a cute pic of your lo!
I am totally confused at this point. Jaden did his typical 4 am wake up with difficulty going back to sleep on friday night. Sat, he had the same naps as friday and that night he slept all through the night until 6:30 am!!! Sunday night he woke at 5 and I nursed him and last night he did the 4 am thing again! I really can't seem to figure it out at all. One time that he slept all night, he had a cat nap very soon before bed but the other time he had been awake over 4 hours from his last nap! So confusing.
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Thanks! :)
It sounds like his wakings aren't necessarily because of routine. If he's waking sometime before 4-5am but not consistently, I would have to think it's probably hunger related. Is he eating a good amount when you feed him? How is his first feed of the day?
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It really depends. Sometimes he is really hungry for his first feed (at 7:30) and other times he doesn't even seem that interested. He's still not eating solids so it could be that he's hungry. I keep trying different foods (pureed, finger foods.) He's just not interested. At the DF he typically eats about 3-4 ounces. I nurse him 5 times and then give him a bottle of formula after his bedtime nursing and at the DF.
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Is he 9mos now? I think this is a hunger scenario. He's now entering the age when solids start becoming more established. Obviously you're doing everything you can and he will start accepting solids eventually. The problem is that he may have this hunger waking until he gets there. :-\
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Hey, i just want to say my 8month old was having the same issues of waking up all the time through the night and then he had teething issues, which meant the routine went out the window. I posted and got great advice about extending the A time in the morning and it has helped.
It was tough for a few nights but in the end he is sleeping through the night again.
I hope things work out for you!
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It could be a combination of factors. I would definitely consider extending A times, it looks like he is only getting 2.5hrs which is very low for 9 months old. Most at 9 months can manage around 3.5hrs. The solids is definitely going to be having an impact too, though.
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Thank you everyone. I'll try extending his A times and see if that helps. Also, we have his 9 month pedi appt tomorrow so I'll talk to the dr about his lack of interest in eating solids. Thank you :-*
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Hi ya
I don't log on much at the moment but just wanted to let you in on Alisha's routine.... she's 9mths now too. Thought it may be helpful.
7:00am Wake and Milk
7:45/8:00 Breakfast: Cereal/ fruit/ toast
9:30 Sleep
11:00 wake
12:00 lunch: Meat/ Veg/ Rice or pasta
13:30 Sleep
15:00 Milk
16:30/ 17:00 Dinner Meat/ Veg/ Rice or pasta
19:00 Bottle/ bed
22:30 Dreamfeed
Unfortunatly we're battling to get past the dreamfeed, but we're working on it. Also i'm weaning breast to bottle - Not easy LOL!
Have you tried some fruit/veggies?? Pear is really good. Apple is a bit tart. Also try some finger foods... baby biscuits, toast etc. It may be that the rice is just boring and tasteless??
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Thank you Hema for responding. I have tried all those foods but Jaden just isn't interested. I took him to his 9 month appt last friday and the dr is not concerned at all. He said that Jaden is developing well, his weight is good. He suggested that I continue to try different foods and that at some point, Jaden will be interested. So...that's what I'm doing.
Hope all is well :)
Good luck with dropping the DF and weaning to bottle!