BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: annette.xx on September 10, 2009, 07:48:45 am
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Hi
My LO is 7 months old
some backround;
reached numerous milestones recently... sits/crawls/teeth/pulls up on me etc....
had swine flu 3 wks ago so woke numerous times in night and has woke on and off since...tho first week after virus slept through as normal
Is touchy (big time!!)
BF and 3 solid meals per day
independant sleeper self settles (normally!!)
no dummy etc....
routine;
E...7
A...
E...8.30 SOLIDS
A
S...10 TILL 11.30
E...11.30
A...
E...12.30
A...
S...2.30 TILL 4
E...4
A...
E...5.30
A...
E...6.45
S...7.15
Ok so problem is last 2 wks NW has occured every night...always different times ...always wakes anywhere between 1am and 4am....
I started off by feeding her and she settled really quickly so had that bad habit for first wk then after advice on here realised that was a bad idea as she was not very hungry in morning so didnt need it so decided to stop...
have settled her without feeding/holding for last 4 nights now...first night horrendous/second not too bad/third only took 30 mins and then last night she woke at 2am and it took me until 4am to get her to sleep!!
Ive given her pain meds just incase and bonjela (thinking could be teething) but doesnt seem to help!!
when I settle her I am doing a variation of shh patt (very gentle and more ,like just putting my hand on her back for comfort) she tries to settle with it and stops crying but tosses her head and body from side to side...almost like shes trying to get comfy and is very restless....
when i know shes settled and breathing slows etc I leave the room only to be called back 10 m ins later!!
I wish I knew what was causing this cos Im now laying awake every night waiting for the wake up call and cant sleep a wink myself!!
could it be solid food giving her tummy ache...is it teething...is it SA...is it UT/OT...is she actually hungry...the questions in my mind are endless!!!
PLEASE HELP...ANYTHING WOULD BE GREAT!!
Annette.xx
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Sorry, I don't really have any answers for you but just wanted to say that I know what you are going through. It's really hard! My LO went through the same thing at about the same age and I did the same as you at first. I started to feed her in the night then realized that was turning into a bad habit so I stopped, which wasn't easy as she came to expect it very quickly.
Turns out my girl was teething, as soon as she cut all 3 teeth at once, she went back to sleeping through the night. Pain meds didn't help with me either.
Sounds like your little one is a good sleeper normally and knows how to self settle but something is worrying her and she wants you there. Keep settling her without feeding/holding and maybe stay a bit longer till she is sound asleep before leaving I know it's really tiring but I'm sure it will pass. When she realizes that you aren't going to give in and feed her she will go back to her normal sleepy self. :)
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ah thankyou so much!!
Just talking about it with someone thats been through it helps so much!!
So you dont think its anything to do with routine ...should I just leave routine alone? I have been considering a short nap in am so pm nap ends by 3/3.30pm to see if longer A before bed makes a difference cos ive read on numerous sites no sleep after 3.30 as it disrupts night sleep... ??? ???
do you think i could become a prop if i stay in there till she is sound asleep every night.. ???
sorry...so many questions!!!
Annette.xx
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I think your routine looks good. If you moved her pm nap forward so it ends by 3:30 that would be almost 4hrs A time before bed which I think is way too much for a 7 month old, I battle to get that long with my 1 year old. Also, if she goes to bed OT it could make the NW worse or cause EW.
She probably, got disrupted by the illness and came to expect to be held/fed in the night. It doesn't take long for something to become a habit, with my LO doing that just 3 nights in a row and she would expect it the next.
About becoming a prop, I think that if you stay just while she is going through this rough patch and then start to leave earlier and earlier things should go back to normal. Just think of it as sleep training all over again :)
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well today I have figured that it is probably teething causing her distress as I had a crying episode mid play today and grumpiness all afternoon so there is definately an underlying problem!!
So did you always keep last A time the same as other A times or did you make it shorter?
I was naughty today and let her sleep even later as she was so distressed and its rare she naps well in the pm and she slept 2 hrs today so she must have needed it!! so she woke at 4.30 and I couldnt keep her up any longer than 7 pm as she was falling asleep feeding so only 2.5 A time!! ...we will see what that brings tonight!!
Annette.xx
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Teething definetly seems to make them more tired. Hopefully she'll have a really good nights sleep for you. I found that when my LO was ultra tired during the day and I let her sleep longer she always had a really good night.
Every baby is different but mine didn't do well with a long A time before bed she got OT and ended up with EW/NW. She still only has 3hrs A time before bed. When my LO was about 10 months I did change the pm nap from 2:30-4pm to 3-4:30pm, she had started crawling, was really tired by the end of the day and it became a constant struggle to get her to bedtime and she started EW. Changing things by half an hour solved everything.
The routine that you have, normally stays roughly the same until you start the 2-1 transition which happens anywhere between 12 and 18 months (which is a nightmare, I'm just starting to go through that now).
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wow ...you were so right!
she STTN last night!!
woke at 6am so 11 hours straight...first time ever as I have always DF her or had NW before now!!
only thing is now...how do I get her to stretch to a 7pm bedtime today?
she always does 11 to 11.5 nightime from put down time regardless of NW etc so to keep a 12 hr day it would mean putting her to bed at 6pm ....then surely she will wake at 5am?
what do you think??
thankyou so so much for all your help
I have to say your advice is so easy to take on its so honest and makes so much sense! thankyou!
Annette.xx
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When my LO wakes earlyish after a good nights sleep she can usually still go down at around the normal time for her am nap and sort of seems to "catch up" during the day and go down at the usual time at bedtime, or close to it.
Sorry, just noticed the time difference. Your Lo will tucked up in bed by now. Hope your day went well. I'm interested to know what time she went to bed and how she does tonight :)
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Hi
ok so the next night waking at 3am again and took 2 hrs to settle...had to give in and feed her just to get her to settle...calmed down within minutes but wasnt hungry just comfort sucking!!
yesterday complete disaster for afternoon nap couldnt get her to sleep until an hr past normal nap time and then she only slept for 30 mins!! she woke at 5pm so late in day so I put her to bed at 7pm cos she looked shattered so just 2 hrs A time! she fell asleep feeding and then slept until 6.30 am!!
Today yet again afternoon nap a nightmare...got her to sleep at 3.30 but again only slept 30 mins then was super grumpy all evening...didnt want to put her down too early tho so opted for 6.30 pm 2.5 hrs A and she again fell asleep feeding and woke when I put her down but settled in nicely...only to wake 30 mins later crying ...definatly OT ...got back to sleep easy ...now im thinking definate NW tonight!! Hope not but I can see a pattern!!
any ideas on how I get her to take that afternoon nap...she doesnt show tired signs in the afternoon so I just wind her down at about 3 hrs knowing she gets OT quickly..I wait until she rubs eyes...usually end up putting her down about 3hr 15 in the end...wondering whether I should just take her up much earlier and not worry about tired signs?,,could she be tired before im taking her up and im missing her window?
sooooooo complicated this sleep thing!!
Annette.xx
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Funny, I've been having a few afternoon nap problems myself and a similar sort of thing. I've found that if I put her down before she's at the stage of rubbing eyes etc. she does have a much better nap. Try winding her down at 2hr 45 and actually put her down at 3hrs and see if that helps. Sometimes 15 mins can make all the difference.
How long do you let her sleep for at her am nap? If I let mine sleep too long in the am she will refuse pm nap.
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Hi
always 1 hr 1/2 in am maybe I should try 15 mins less?
so you dont think it could be that she wants more A time in the pm before nap?
Im so confused today my head hurts!!!
Its so hard cos once you take them up for nap and get the wrong A time its too late!!
Im really worried she wont accept a earlier nap but its worth a shot!
Annette.xx
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I wouldn't make the am nap any shorter, 1.5hrs is right for that age. I think between 6-8 months 2 naps of 1.5hrs to 2hrs is average.
I know it is a fine line with tiredness...OT and they don't sleep, UT and they don't sleep. It is really hard.
I can't help but wonder if she is getting OT sometime during the day. When she wakes at 6am or 6:30am , what time does she go down for her am nap?
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well normally I try and keep it to 3 hrs A time from wake time but when she wakes early cos I dont want the day to be too short I am naughty and try and gently stretch the A time before first nap...I rarely put her down before 9.30 and try my hardest to get it to 10am!...
is this my problem?!!!
today has been weird so far cos she woke at 6.45 and looked really tired by 8.30 but I just let her stay up longer thinking it was boredom etc by 9.20 she was really rubbing eyes so I put her to bed and big mistake...she is still crying on and off...I have to keep going in to her...she just will not settle...
first time in a long time that she hasnt settled in the morning! so did I put her down too late or too early...
really confused now!!!
thankyou for sticking with me!!
Annette.xx
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I know it's hard and really confusing. Its easy to overthink things and get stuck on the details like...did I put her down too early?....did I put her down too late?...could it be this or could it be that?
Things don't really seem to be improving for you. Looking at the bigger picture, there is basically two things you can do. Stretch out her A time or cut back her A time. You know her better than anyone, so go with your gut feeling and formulate a plan and stick to it for 3 days. Don't cave in on the second day, which is easy to do.
Also remember that A time is everything in between any of the stages of sleep, so if you put her down at 3hr 15 and she takes 10m to fall asleep thats actually 3hr 25m A time. I would start by either adding on/cutting back just 15min.
All the time keep in mind that she could be teething, so I would give her some pain meds 30 mins before each nap is due.
Having a plan and sticking to it for a few days also eliminates all the questioning yourself constantly and will give your mind a bit of a break too.
I hope things start improving for you soon, It really is a tiring job!
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you know me too well already!! overthinking everything!!
well this afternoons nap went wrong completely she woke at 20 mins and refused sleep all afternoon it was the worst day ever!
so im going to try 3 hrs 15 for next few days and see what happens with that then decide which way to go shorter or longer!...
I do notice alot of tired signs at 2 hrs tho!! but surely thats way too early!!
Do you think I should go back to the old days of proper nap extension for next few days...shh pat until the nap slot ends?....that was what worked when she was 3 months!
thankyou so much I really do appreciate you spending your time doing this for me...especially as you are pregnant!! Hows it going? good pregnancy? boy/girl/suprise?
again thankyou!
Annette.xx
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Over 6 months old sh/pt tends to become bothersome to some babies instead of soothing. Generally you would move onto pickup/putdown but I think these are tools to teach independent sleep to babies who haven't been taught yet. I find that if my LO wakes early crying and I go in and just sit still and quietly next to the cot with my hand on her chest she will, most times (if I'm lucky), drift back off to sleep and then I creep out but you will know what might work best with your LO.
You are going to try lengthen the A time so be brave and push through those tired signs. I found the tired signs seemed to change as my LO got older and what I thought were tired signs were just boredom, teeth etc. and remember to keep at it for 3 days then if it doesn't work at least you can cross long A times off the list and try something else.
My pregnancy is going ok so far, thanks. Last time I had pre-eclampsia and ended up in hospital for awhile with an early delivery so I'm really hoping that doesn't happen again. This time I have Placenta Previa but I'm ever hopeful that the darn thing will move out of the way so I can have a normal delivery. We are having another girl, hopefully they will be good friends as they will be so close in age.
I hope tomorrow is a better day for you :)
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2 girls how lovely!!
Fingers crossed for a great preganancy and delivery! I had the perfect pregnancy and ended up with emergency C section and intensive care!!! im sooooo scared to have another but I cant let Jasmine be an only child she needs company bless her!!
thanks again for all your help you are a star!
Annette.xx :-* :-* :-*
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Hi
just wanted to update you...
my plan to extend A time today has crashed and burned...il explain...
basically morning A time was 3 hrs, and nap was short at just 1 hr again (normally 1 1/2 hrs) and I knew she was still very tired when she woke so thought id stick to 3 hrs A time instead of pushing my luck!!
so anyway yet again she was showing tired signs as always about 2 hrs rubbing eyes yawning but I know 2 hrs is way too short so I kept her up but thought id try BF her a bit at 2 hr 15 A time to try and judge how tired she was...she gets sleepy looking if she is tired and if not she feeds and keeps breaking away for a look around!!
so anyway she only went and fell asleep at 2 hr 30??!!!!
so I took her up and cuddles her and put her down...she cried really hard...thought maybe UT but kept her in her room and slow danced with her for 10 mins and then put her back down ...she cuddled teddy and off to sleep she went!!! and then suprise suprise she woke at 30 mins so again would normally think UT but instead stayed in her room and held her down really firmly and she settled and I kept pressure on her for about 10 mins...I felt her body jolting through the stages so this confirmed it...OT!!!!
she slept for another 40 mins then cried again...I went in and did the same again...20 mins I stayed with her for!! she kept jolting and crying every few minutes...I just kept holding her down!! think she will wake any minute cos she still cant get into deep sleep poor thing!!
If she was UT I know there is no way id get her back settled to sleep!
So now not really sure what to do ...think maybe need to work on first A time ...keep that shorter to avoid OT and then A time should be easier for next nap...
today proved that even the 2 hr 45 A time was OT but 2 hr 30 is too short so need to get out of this OT loop before anything gets resolved!!
my back is killing me now!!
so im now thinking when I started pushing that first nap forward I did it too fast and then when she woke early in morning I tried to keep to 10am nap so day was stretched out right which worked great at first lovely long naps...but they were cos she was rested from the full nights sleep so she didnt get the jolts so bad...the extra time from first A then crept into the second as OT and made the second A time shorter which I didnt do (thinking a nice long nap had worked!!) so then the whole day was OT and each day just carried an extra half hour OT then naps got shorter and shorter because of it and here I am today with this nightmare!!
phew...that was alot to get out!!! Think I have OCD over her sleep but I feel absolutely confident that I have figured out the problem now so I can start back tracking to sort it out....may take a while but I will get there!!
thankyou so much you kept triggering things in my mind which helped me think it through!!!
Annette.xx
p.s...bet you think im mad now!!!!
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No, I don't think you are mad. I think you have figured out the problem exactly. It always sounded to me like OT was creeping in somewhere in the day and for it to be first thing in the day was setting the whole day up for disaster.
Do what you can to get your little angel well rested and don't worry about the clock too much, if she seems really tired at 2hrs just put her down.
I've learnt that if my LO woke early from a bad night keeping the first nap at the same time to keep the day the same, wasn't the best idea. But if I put her down when she was tired then let her sleep till her usual wakeup time, she woke well rested and recovered from the bad night.
If I remember correctly, this was my LO routine at that age:
7am wake
9:30 - 11am nap
2-3:30 nap
6/6:30 bedtime
Maybe having an earlier bedtime would help get you on top of the OT. :)
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so the early bedtime didnt make her wake before 7? I always find that when i put her bed at say 6.30 she wakes at 6am!! it always seems to be 11.5 hrs night whatever I do!!
Annette.xx
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Sometimes she did wake earlier, sometimes not especially if we got into an OT cycle, she then tended to still wake at her usual time. But the nights always seemed better if she didn't get OT before bedtime and I always thought I'd rather have a full nights sleep and wake early than have to get up every couple hours in the night.
Even just a couple early nights (if she looks like she needs it) might help, then slowly push it back to the normal bedtime.
At that age my LO couldn't cope with more than 3hrs A time especially before bed and once we stopped the catnap her bedtime moved from 7pm to 6/6:30pm and it stayed like that for quite a few months. The maximum A time she ever had was 3hrs and that was when she was well rested, having full naps and sleeping through the night. Your LO is OT, she might find that 3hrs is too long especially if she just had a short nap or restless night.
I would also suggest that at the moment you let your LO sleep as long as she wants in the am nap, just for a few days until you get on top of things.
Good luck...hope you have a better day today! I'm sure you will now that you know what the problem is you can focus on the solution. :)
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thanks for being there for me!
bedtime settling was horrendous last night...I put her bed early at 6.30 and she fought sleep until after 7pm...she was definately OT...
and consequently we had EW this morning at 5.30!! only going to make the OT worse >:( :(
Anyway I tried my hardest to get back on track and refused to start the day there so I tried settling her for ages to no avail so gave up and BF her a bit and put her back down...she cried really angrily for about 5 to 10 mins ...not desperate cry more like ''why am i not getting my own way'' cry!! so I left her and she went back to sleep!! yay!!
started day at 7.30 and after 2 hrs and 15 mins took her away from toys and took her upstairs and layed on bed with her playing with soft teddys gently...she wasnt looking tired at all then after a while I noticed she looked more playful and started laughing and waving the teddy around...I then noticed she wasnt even looking at it just waving it in her arms...this must be her tired sign!! So bed it was...again she cried for 5 mins but I left her to it and she went to sleep...when I went back down and looked at the time it was 2 hr45 mins (I had refused to look at time when I took her up wanted to follow her lead)...
im guessing she will still wake at 1 hr as she has done this last few days...im going to try and extend...
fingers crossed for today...im scared which way its going to go!!
Annette.xx
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You'll be fine. Good on you for following her signs and not the clock. I'm quite a structured person myself and at times found (and still do) that I was paying more attention to the time than to the baby.
Sounds like you're totally on the right track....sleep, sleep and more sleep :)
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well she slept for nearly 2 hrs this morning!!! ...
but then I did the same again this afternoon and it all went wrong again...yet again a 20 minute nap...I extended with alot of stroking her hair and hand on back...she only managed another 20 mins then she woke and I tried to extend again but she was up on all fours and stopped crying and sat there staring at me quite content so Im wondering whether I put her down UT for that nap??? ???
But im not going to worry too much about it im going to carry on like this for a few days and see what I pick up on!!
it was really weird in the afternoon tho cos she started getting fussy and doing exactly the same waving her arms around like earlier at just 2 hrs A time so I took her upstairs and kept her calm for a bit reading etc ...thinking if I put her down then she would just be way too UT ...she didnt look at all tired but she was getting all jolty and losing interest in her toys again so after just a short while I put her to bed...she sceamed the place down when I left the room...worse than normal...
and I had to go back in and AP her to sleep by holding her and slow dancing for a bit...she cuddled into my shoulder like she does when she is really tired and after a few minutes I put her back in cot and she cuddled teddy had a little moan I patted her and off she went!!
so do you think she was genuinely tired and ready at 2 hrs and I missed the window making her OT when I put her down hence the crying or do you think she was UT and was crying cos she wasnt ready and was angry with me?!!!!!!!
im confused but I will keep going and see what I end up with!!
she took ages to settle this evening and I had to keep going back to her...the last time I went in she was screaming for me and then when I went in and put hand on back she got up on fours again and just looked at me....
I left and she didnt cry for me just had a moan and roll about for another 30 mins!! im guessing another EW!!!
never mind!
Annette.xx
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I think it takes a few days to get on top of the OT but it does sound like she was genuinely tired at 2hrs, if she was UT she wouldn't have gone back to sleep. Sometimes they just need a bit of help getting of to sleep and staying asleep, for whatever reason. Doesn't necessarily always have to be OT or UT.
She's had a rough time lately and she probably just needs some time to catch up on some sleep and get settled into a routine again.
If she only had 40min pm nap, what time did you put her to bed?
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Hi
I put her to bed at 6.20pm and she cried for me...I went back in to settle her and she was trying to crawl round the cot and just wanted me there with her...so I kissed her and left said ''its not playtime silly go to sleep!!'' and she was still moaning (not crying) to herself until 7pm!!
luckily no EW so that was good!
have you ever used PU/PD? Im thinking about using it for nap settling as think it is part of the problem that she now doesnt like being left to it so she calls on me and then it takes ages to get her to sleep causing OT...
so if I used PU/PD it would teach her how to calm herself down without me always comforting her...
what do you think?
Annette.xx
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I know people who have had success with it but it didn't work with my LO. She totally flipped out whenever I put her back down again. It really seemed to wind her up so I had to find a way to settle her without picking her up. This is what worked for me:
At first I sat with my hand on her and said calming words until she calmed down and was dead asleep then I left. Sometimes she screamed blue murder but I still didn't pick her up cause I knew she would freak when I put her back down. She learnt she wasn't going to get picked up but knew I was still there for her. Eventually I could leave sooner and sooner. If she cried for me when I left I came back but just till she calmed down and stopped crying then I left again. If she got OT in the process I would have to stay till she was fast asleep because the jolts would make falling asleep very difficult for her. Sometimes it felt like I had come and gone like 50 times. It did get better though and now I can just put her down and walk out and she goes straight to sleep. It wasn't easy and I had to be consistent or I don't think it would have worked.
I think you just have to find what works for you, I could see how some babies might get wound up if you came and went all the time.
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you are so good at all this mummy stuff!!
thankyou thats really helpful!!
today has been a nightmare...pm nap was 20 mins yet again...couldnt extend..impossible and she was wide awake and looking at me again so took her downstairs and ended up taking her for a long walk in the hope she would fall asleep again...
no joy....she woke from the 20 min nap at 2.24 and I got her down to bed at 5.55pm...followed your advice to just go with the earlier bedtime to compensate...think it may have been too late still but her nan and grandad came to see her so that was soonest I could make it...
Im still wondering whether all these settling issues and wake ups at 20 mins are cos she just wasnt ready to be put to bed...I know here I go again!! Ive done 3 days of earlier A times ...im going to try a little later for pm nap tomorrow...dont worry just a little extra!! after all I have nothing to lose as im only getting 20 mins now!!
im so happy to have found you to vent too!! You are so good at BW...im so jealous!!
Annette.xx
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You learn a lot looking back but going forward is still an unkown. I'm going through the 2 - 1 nap transition at the moment and it has taken awhile to get my head around it. Just when you think everything is going so well suddenly it all changes and you have no idea what you're doing again! Haha...that's just life I suppose and the joys of being a Mummy.
As your LO catches up on sleep she may be ready for longer A times, just go with your instinct. Mummy always knows best! and like you said you've got nothing to lose but just go slowly. Add 15 mins for few days and see what happens if nothing improves add another 15 min.
I have just been in a similar situation. My LO showed signs of being ready for 1 nap but I think I increased her A time too fast for her liking and she got OT so I had to reduce her A time to less than it was before, for her to catch up. Now she's not napping so well again, a sign I think that she is ready for her A time to be increased again. This time I will go SLOWLY!!!
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im going to add 15 mins today...I will let you know how it goes...
NW last night for 2 hrs so I need to get this sorted!! Im thing the pm nap was UT causing major OT at bedtime...and I think 5.55 wasnt early enough...even if it ends up being 5pm tonight im not letting her stay awake more than 3 hrs A in the evening!!!
fingers crossed!!
Annette.xx