BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: brenda2 on November 14, 2009, 19:41:34 pm
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i'm back again...sleep troubles are still not resolved and i am getting so tired of doing shh pat all night. i think there must be a prop but i don't really know what it is that wakes her up so often all night. last night she was up about 15 times overnight and i am so exhausted.
dd2 is just over 5 mo. she is ebf. she eats on a 4 hour schedule. all naps are short and despite working on this for months now i haven't been able to change it. i think she is just a short napper. in her life (including the newborn period where most babies sleep all the time) she has maybe slept longer than 45 min on her own about 10 times. when she wakes at 45 min i always try to get her back down with shh pat and am successful sometimes once a day and sometimes not at all.
usually her naps are one short nap in the morning, one nap that i extend midafternoon for a total of about 1.5 hours sleep and another short nap in the evening. every day is a bit different due to the short naps. total day sleep is usually 3 to 3.5 hours sleep in a 11-12 hour day. i put to bed about 1.5 hours after she wakes from her last nap so bedtime is between 6:30 and 7:30.
she then will sleep fairly well for the first 3 hours of the night and then like she did last night wake up every 45 min or so all night. sometimes she will go 1.5 hours and sometimes 20 min and then i need to go back in and shh pat her back down.
when she wakes at night usually i do shh pat to get her back to sleep. i feed about twice a night but no more than that. usually if i feed her she will fall asleep at the breast and then i'll get a bit longer out of her - maybe 1.5 or 2 hours before she wakes again. perhaps this is a prop? also i roll her onto her side and use rolled blankets to keep her there so i can pat her back more easily. she seems to settle better on her side. maybe this is the prop? maybe i should just keep her on her back, but then how do i pat? or should i do pupd instead of the patting.
i'm so confused as to why she's waking like this. she goes down for naps and night independently. i rock a little bit for winddown and put her down awake and she goes right to sleep on her own. she sucks her thumb and is in a sleep sack. the room is dark.
i don't think she is OT. she is happy when she is awake even with the short naps. she hardly cries unless i am trying to get her back to sleep after she wakes early. even on relatively good nap days she still wakes like this all night. not every night is like this but lately more and more nights are really really bad and i am getting so tired of being up all night. about a month ago she did have about 10 days where she actually sttn 5 or 6 times but then she got sick and since then it has been terrible even though she is no longer sick and i was very consistent with the sleep when she was sick.
any insight would be appreciated.
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Hey Brenda, DS sounds EXACTLY like your DD and they are relatively the same age. We'll get down to the bottom of this together ;D
This is what I am thinking is going on with my DS. He is trying to phase out the CN earlier than most, and needs more A time. I know some pp would think against this, but with my A extensions, really things are getting better.
Here's our routine,
A - 8am
E
S - 10:30 (45 minutes) If I keep him up closer to the 3 hour mark it's easier to extend from the first 45 minutes, but then I'm on the border of OT so I don't want to push him too much.
A - 11:15 sometimes if I can extend then 12:00
E 12:00
S - 2 ish (1.5hrs) Have to PU/PD/Pat at the 45 minute mark, but is very easy to settle
A - 3:30
E - 4 pm
S - 6 ish CN Limited to only 20 - 30 minutes
A - 6:30 ish Bath
E - 8 pm
S - in bed by 8 - 8:30 at the latest cause he only had a small nap.
So I'm in the process of extending his A times, as I think this is the real problem, Some babies just need less Nap time, and I think mine is one of those. As he is not having any 30 minute naps, and the longer the A time, the longer nap he does have.
HTH
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hi
i think my lo is at the low end of sleep needs too but as she never takes a long nap i'm not sure she could handle a longer A time. when she does do a long nap (ie wakes at 45 min but if i am successful at getting her back down) i try to keep her up longer and she can do upwards to 2.5 hours but after a short nap often she starts to get fussy so i put her down earlier to avoid OT.
i would agree and try to keep her up a bit longer first thing but her nights have been soooo bad lately that she is cranky very shortly after waking up and again i feel like i need to put her down because hse is at risk of getting OT.
its a vicious cycle - never a long nap so never a long A time and therefor never a long nap. i just don't know how to break it and also don't know how to help her transition at night. if she was just short napping but sleeping well at night i would be fine with it. but she was up about 15 times last night and i just can't deal with it and don't know how to help her through this.
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It's hard, I get what you mean about the OT cycle, maybe someone can pop in with a bit more experience in your field of question.
((HUGS)) to you, and hopefully things get sorted out :)
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Hey Brenda, I've been brainstorming...
Have you tried APOP to try and get her to sleep and maybe catch up on some sleep?
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hi
no i haven't tried w2s. i agree that she needs me to get through to the next sleep cycle but i am faithfully doing pat shh and not picking her up or feeding back to sleep etc when she wakes and so i don't know how to teach her to transition on her own. i have tried httj and it doesn't work. what other technique is there? i can try w2s...maybe i will try first for naps tomorrow.
once in a while she has a nap in the carrier if we are out with dd1 and she also wakes at the 45 min mark and doesn't go abck down easily. she is happy when she wakes though usually.
today for nap #2 she woke up after 45 min, i patted, she went back but woke up 10 min later, i patted again, she woke 10 min later...she did this 3 times and then slept for another 45 min so got 2 hours but broken up in the middle. every once in a while i am successful with a nap like this. but really it is the night sleep i want to fix! i know they are related so i try really hard to have her get enough total sleep in the day. but it doesn't seem to help, no matter what her naps are like in the day lately the nights are terrible.. last night she was awake every 1.5 hours all night exactly. at least she went down easily each time, but i am getting really burnt out.
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What is her awake time before naps? At this age you would be looking at approx 2-2.5hrs. Do you do a dreamfeed? When do you feed at night?
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hi
when she does a short nap her next awake time is about 1 hour 45 min or when she starts to fuss - usually before 2 hour mark. after a long nap she does about 2 hours 15 min to 2.5 hours. first thing in the morning it's about 2 hours but her nights have been so bad lately that the first A time is getting shorter and shorter because she is fussing.
i don't do a df, tried it when she was younger but it made her wake more so i have never done it with her. i try to not feed her before about 2 am and then sometimes will also feed at 5 am if she wakes at this time as otherwise it is hard to get her back to sleep in the early morning. i never feed more than twice. she's probably not really hungry when she wakes at night, she has done some nights sttn without any feeds (about a month ago) - so that is 12 hours and other nights has made it to 5 am without a feed so about 10 hours.
do you think i should do the df again and then not feed her the rest of the night? is it confusing that some times she's waking and i'm patting back to sleep and other times she is getting a feed? with dd1 she didn't sttn until i eliminated all night feeds (but she did take the df quite well), it was like she was holding out hope i would feed her and when i finally just did pupd and didn't feed all night she got the hint and started to sttn. but she was a bit older when i cut out all the night feeds. or should i just do pupd/shh pat and not feed her and make her go the 12 hours (seems like a long time at this age).
she obviously has trouble transitioning without me patting her back but i don't know how to teach her how to do this??? i am doing the patting and it's just not working. it helps her get back to sleep but then she needs me to pat her back again an hour later. would pupd with no patting be a better alternative?
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Brenda!! We're dealing with this exact same problem around here! It's definitely the sleep cycle I think. Our little one just can not get past that 45 minutes herself - I can get her back down for naps during the day usually, bedtime is always a disaster and then in the last few weeks our nights have been getting steadilly worse. She also has slept through the night in the past, and then got sick and things got really really bad!
Last night she was up every 2 hours - I only fed her once...but still I'm exhausted!
I honestly don't know what to tell you as we're in the same boat here. I really wish there was some sort of magic solution here - but I can't figure it out. Our first daughter was nothing like this - she was a dream in comparison. I'll be following this thread that's for sure!
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mcmeg, it is exhausting that's for sure! what you describe is exactly what happened to us. a good sleeper who has just gotten worse and worse. i only fed her once last night too but she was up every 1.5 hours on the nose for a reposition and resettle.
jay, when she wakes at night i go in and turn her onto her side and pat maybe a couple times and leave. i am in and out of there in under a minute and she just goes right back to sleep, but then wakes an hour or so later and i do it again. do you think turning her onto her side is the prop? she doesn't settle well unless i do this and even though she is rolling by herself she doesn't roll onto her side herself at night to resettle herself, rather she cries for me to do it for her. should i stop rolling her onto her side and just lay a hand on her tummy or something like this? i think she wouldn't settle very easily this way but maybe this is what i have to do to teach her how to go back to sleep when she wakes at night?
maybe i should post over in props? oh so confused.
i am off to try w2s for the first nap and see how it goes!
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well i did w2s for the first nap - went in at the 25 min mark and stroked her face until she moved a bit. it has been an hour since she originally went down and she is still sleeping. so that is progress. now do you have to do it more than once during a nap?
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Hey Brenda,
I just wanted to share with you what is going on over on our end. I extended his first A time to 2hr 45 minutes for the first one, and voila, he transitioned past the first 45 minutes and slept for 1.5 hr nap.
It always seems like he is getting fussy at the 2 hr mark during his A time, and I really have to keep him keep him busy by walking around with him in my Moby wrap, It does keep him busy, but it also doesn't let him get OS.
The second nap wasn't such a success, but I was happy with the first, so that made up for it.
His NW's have improved as well, he still wakes every 3 hours, but that's better than the 45 minutes he was doing a few days ago!!
I hope you get everything figured out, and you too mcmeg05 :)
Posted at the same time as you Brenda, sorry I don't have any experience with W2S but would like to hear some.
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thanks
i got a good first nap today too so will try slightly longer A time before the second nap. i feel better about keeping her up a bit longer when she has actually done a good nap and i know she's not OT. so am going to aim for 2.5 hours before nap #2 and then also dothe w2s again and see what happens!
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Good to hear Brenda!! Let me know how the W2S works for the second nap!!
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Are you maybe running in too soon? I did that with DS around that age and he woke up so many times in the night. One night I left him to cry for a bit and he settled himself (as long as his cry was not getting louder, and stopped and started) - 99/100 times he settled himself. Obviously if he kept crying or the cry got louder I went in to him. After a night of not running in to him to started sleeping soooooooo much better.
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Brenda great news with the W2S for nap, how did the 2nd nap go? I think that with her having decent naps during the day it should make a difference to her night sleep. As for Pu/PD i am no expert on this as i never used it but i did read in Tracy's book that Shh/Patt can become to stimulating as they get older.
Are you maybe running in too soon? I did that with DS around that age and he woke up so many times in the night. One night I left him to cry for a bit and he settled himself (as long as his cry was not getting louder, and stopped and started) - 99/100 times he settled himself. Obviously if he kept crying or the cry got louder I went in to him. After a night of not running in to him to started sleeping soooooooo much better.
Yes was thinking that as well.
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nap 1 with the w2s was 1 hour 20 min long. then she had 2.5 hours A time. then nap2 i tried w2s again but she woke after 45 min but i think since she had been awake longer she settled easily and continued sleeping, total nap time was 2 hours exactly (this hardly ever happens in our house) ;D so i will try 2.5 hours a time and put down for a catnap tonight.
i will try to not rush in...i do leave her to fuss and even cry a little bit before i go in but it's so hard to know exactly when to go in and when it is really hard crying. sometimes it is loud fussing and she will stop start and then i go in and she stops when she hears the door open and then i never know whether to leave again or not. i don't want to leave her to cry if she needs me...maybe i do need to let her go longer though.
we'll see how tonight goes with the better naps today.
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One of the moderators told me that if she wasn't sure whether the LO needed her then it probably meant they didn't ...
I used PUPD a couple of times and it was fantastic (took looooots of times first time, 2nd time a few then he started just lying in his cot and going to sleep = previously it was a battle to get him to sleep!).
Hope today is going well :)
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firsttimemummy - i guess that is a good rule of thumb. so hard when you are already awake to not go in though!
last night was better - in bed at 7, she woke up at 9 and i resettled her then woke at 12 and i resettled again but she woke 30 min later so i fed her. then she slept until 5:30 which was much better than she had been doing. i resettled her but she woke up at 6, was happy playing until 6:15 and then i got her up and fed her.
but this morning has not been good. i don't know if it was the ew that has screwed it up...
5:30 awake, resettled back to sleep
6 awake
6:15 E
8:20-8:50 S tried w2s at 8:45 but i think it woke her up or else she was OT???
tried leaving her to fuss, went in a few times to pat
9:20-9:30 S awake again. let her fuss, went in to pat...
that's not a good start to today!
one thing i did differently yesterday was to just lay a hand on her tummy when she was really crying and do pupd a few times if she wouldn't settle - usually she would arch against me so i would just put her back down and encourage her to roll onto her side if she wanted to rather than put her there myself. maybe this has helped. will keep trying to not interfere as much...just didn't want to leave her to cio but i guess i was rushing in too quick and a little bit of fussing or stop start crying is ok? even at this young age? i know we did wiwo and let dd1 fuss it out a bit more but that was when she was older - like after 10 mo.
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Not sure if others will agree but I certainly find that a little crying (mantra cries) is fine. At first I was scared to let DS cry even for a second (which is what led to many sleepless nights!) but it seems to work .... I started around 5 months as this is when I found out that mantra cries are fine (I thought cio was any crying whatsoever!).
I found that listening to the cry and deciding if DS needed me or not (if didn't settle and cry kept getting louder and had no rests, etc I went it) reassured me I wasn't letting him just cio but gave him time to settle himself (And gave me something positive to focus on when he woke). I think you have to do whatever you are comfortable with ....
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i agree that you have to do what you are comfortable with. i am more laid back this time around and don't feel so bad about a few cries here and there. but sometimes she is crying and it isn't full out crying, more like middle volume cries that may stop and start a little bit but sometimes this can go on for 5 minutes...is this ok?
she finally did go back down and did another 45 min after the first 30 this morning and then i kept her up for 2.5 hours. hopefully the second nap will be better.
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ok ...i think i'm getting the w2s timing wrong. this morning she went down and i went in at 25 min and roused her a bit and then she woke at 30 min and i had a really hard time getting her back down - basically was in and out of there for almost an hour before she went back to sleep (some of this she was lying there awake playing with her blankie, some she was mantra crying, some she was screaming and some i was in there patting her back). then for nap 2 i lost track of time so went in at the 30 min mark and roused her and she woke up 2 min later, mantra cried for about 3 or 4 minutes and she appears to be back asleep now (it's only been 5 min though so she still may wake up). when are you supposed to go in to do this? i thought it was at 25 min?? i'm really glad she did manage to get herself back to sleep though by herself just now. i'm hoping this leaving her to sort it out is going to help my nights.
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with W2S the timing all depends on the babe, we found 28mins was perfect for Caleb, its all trial and error.
as for the crying, well it again all depends on your little one, you are her mother and know her cries, if she is saying "I need you" then she obviously does. with crying there is no clock watching involved, its all about the type of cry. the mantra cry is rhythmic and monotonous, if you can pat a beat to it then generally thats what it is.
the stopping and starting also depends on teh cry that goes with it, if Caleb is making settling sounds and its stop/start then i leave him, if its actualy crying with stop/start i generally presume he needs my help at that stage because i know it will eventuate into a full on cry and I go in to pat him, again it depends on your baby because different baby types cry differenlty and we deal with them differently. because Caleb is an angel baby i know i can leave him to mantra cry for a bit and he will settle pretty soon but if he was a touchy babe I would probably deal with it differently.
remember though that Tracy does not advocate any form of CIO or CC, instead we are there to guide our little ones to learn to sleep independantly in a gentle way using the methods she teaches. :)
HTH
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i know they are all so different. she has different cries, for sure there is a full out cry (and i always go straight in), and fussy noises but there is a cry she does that sometimes will stop start but it is rhythmical and kind of medium volume, perhaps this is her mantra cry? today this is what she was doing just before she settled herself with her thumb and went back to sleep.
w2s, maybe i need to go in before the 25 min mark then...
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Hi Brenda! Just wanted to pop on and send some encouragement your way. We're having some NWs on this end, too, and it's been really helpful to read what all you're trying. :)
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Brenda perhaps try a few minutes earlier for W2S our secret time was 25mins but all kids are different.
Sorry can't remember if you said or not but are you using a paci?
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hi
no paci - she's a thumb sucker which is why i have been surprised she is having a hard time self soothing - most of the time she can sooth herself with her thumb and had been doing so at night too.
last night was great. she went to bed at 7, one nw at 9:45 and i had to settle her, then slept until 4 and i fed her. then she was awake for 45 min - happy playing in her crib then cried out and i went in and just patted a bit and she went back to sleep 4:45 until 7:15. a huge improvement for her. :D
do you think the awake time after the feed means she needs even more awake time?
today this far she was awake for almost 2.5 hours but was quite fussy when i finally put her down. did a 30 min nap and woke not crying and played for 10 min but then cried so i went in and resettled her and she went straight back to sleep. she seems to be doing better with naps yesterday and today so far but still is not transitioning during the nap. by better i mean she is doing 2 45 min naps back to back instead of waking and not going back to sleep i think because i have kept her up longer and she is more tired. not sure how to help her transition on her own. will she just do it eventually or is the A time still not quite right?
7:15 awake and E
9:40-10:15 S
10:30-11:20 S
11:20 E
all in all much better and last night was fantastic by my standards!
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Brenda sounds like you are doing great well done keep it up ;)
It will take her a few days for her body to get use to the longer awake times and being able to stay asleep during the light sleep after 30/45mins.
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ok...one step forward two steps back...
yesterday we managed 2.5 hours A time followed by 30 min nap, got her back down in 10 min for another 45 min nap. then 2.5 hours A time followed by 45 min nap and couldn't get her back down. then 2 hours A time followed by another 45 min nap. then she was very cranky so put her to bed early after just 1.5 hours A time. in bed by 6:40 pm.
then...woke at 10:30 and resettled,
woke at 11:30 and fed her
woke at 2 and resttled
woke at 2:30 and resettled
woke at 3 and resettled
woke at 3:45 and fed her
then slept until i woke up ay 6:30 and looked at the video monitor and realised she was awake and just lying there. let her lie there until she started making noises at 6:40 and got her up and fed her. have no idea what time she woke up.
so if i guess that she was awake at 6:15,
E at 6:40
first nap i put her down at 8:45 as she was starting to get cranky...
sigh. what am i doing wrong!!?! last night was terrible again! i am getting so frustrated and tired with this!
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Hi Brenda...*hugs* I know you're being a great help to me on my NWs topic :) Thought I'd try and return the favor.
I know that your LO has never taken long naps, so I'm trying to advise more on her behavior rather than the nap length itself.
For that second nap, do you think that maybe she went down UT after 2.5h? And then the last nap ended up being OT (even though both naps were the same length)?
Is she teething at all (I can't remember if you've mentioned this previously)?
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i am so confused
this has been going on for so long i am getting so tired of trying to figure her out!
last night was pretty good. i gave her solids at dinner and a bottle of formula at bed - which she drank 6 oz and then bf for another 5 min. i was thinking some of this may be due to gs or hunger. anywa. woke at 8:30 and 10 for a resettle and then 2:30 for a feed and then 5:30, resettle and then woke up at 6:30am. pretty good night altogether. i did hear her a few other times but she put herself back to sleep easily and without really crying out at all, so i am happy about that.
then this morning...woke at 6:30. first nap didn't really seem tired but put her down at 9:10 (2 hours 40 min A time) and she slept for 35 min, woke happy, playing, kicking around and then 20 min later started crying but i could not get her back down. finally gave up trying at 10:20 and fed her.
so now not sure how long to keep her up before the next nap???
i don't know if she is teething. she is chewing everything and drooling but is happy when awake so i hate to blame it on that. with dd1 we blamed bad sleep on teeth that never came for months. can't live their whole life looking for teeth. i don't see any white bumps and she has no teeth right now.
we started solids last week as she seems to have a hard time now making it to the 4 hour mark and she is really interested in food. she gobbled it up and seems to love it. the formula bottle top up last night i think made a difference too.
ahhh i don't know, so hard to know what to do with her!
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Aaron has been, for the most part, a happy teether: chewing on everything, drooling, sucking on his lips and tongue a lot. But, at night, he's more effected; not sure why. Maybe try some baby tylenol, motrin, or orajel to see if it makes any difference? Just trying to think of anything and everything to help, as I'm sure you're exhausted from doing that yourself :(
Re: nap length after her 35 minute nap, how much A time can she handle after her usual 45 minute naps? I would just take maybe 10 minutes off that following A time and see how she does.
Do you think that the solids might be upsetting her tummy a little and that's why she's waking at night?
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Brenda ((HUGS)), I am sorry you are going through all these night wakings...so draining I know, especially when dealing with the short naps.
Tanner has consistently been having NWings for a long time now. His naps have gotten a lot better (until the past few days), so not sure why NWings are still so tough, unless it is a developmental thing? Tanner is teething...his first tooth came through last week and the 2nd one is looking like it's about to pop through, and unlike Sara's baby, Tanner is not a happy teether! I think that has part to do with it. But I am also wondering if the solids may be affecting DD's nights? We started Tanner on rice cereal 3 days ago, and since then naps are bad and nights are getting worse, so not sure if it's bugging him or what.
Hang in there...
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Baby rice can be constipating apparently. I think pear is a good first food (read it somewhere, and DS still loves them). DON'T give papaya (despite Annabel Karmel saying it's a good first food) and it is really hard for people (Esp babies) to digest and seems to give them a sore bottom too.
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well my nights and naps have gotten a whole lot better the last 3 days! :D :D :D of course i have no idea why because i was trying so many things at once but it seems to be getting better on the whole. we have had better naps, more long naps and if not long then i can get her back down for another back to back short nap. so it may be that (getting over the ot), may be that i let her fuss a bit more at night, may be the longer A times (which go hand in hand with the better naps) and may be the solids/bottle before bed. and may be that she is just turning 6 mo and nothing i do has helped because it's developmental!
i really think she was starving. i know rice can be constipating and some babies have a hard time with their tummies, dd2 was like that but nights have been better over the last week since starting on solids. also a big bottle before bed may have helped?
anyway, yesterday was as near perfect day as i can get:
awake 6 am and E
dozed on and off to 7
8:40-10 nap
10 E
12:20-2 nap
2 E
4:50-5:30 nap (put her down much sooner than this but she just played and played and then went to sleep on her own)
5:45 solids
6:45 bottle and bf
7:15 bed
3 am E
5 am awake and resettled easily
6:15 awake for the day
about as good a night as i've had in a long time. the night before was about the same. fingers crossed it continues.
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:)
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Hi Brenda!
Your post definately interests me... it sounds similar to what we've been going through. Unfortunately, as soon as I think things are improving, it all goes downhill again!
Anyhow... I was curious about you adding a bottle of formula in the mix. Do you just do this at night? Although my little one is gaining weight and is quite chunky :D he's not interested in solids much. I've tried rice and oatmeal and he mostly lets it all ooze back out of his mouth. Since he's waking so often at night, I worry he's still hungry (up until a month ago he was still 'eating on demand' and munching every 2 hours or so). One night at a DF I gave him a 6 oz bottle and then he finished it off with an additional 5-7 minutes of BF. I then pumped the other side and only got 3.5 oz. ???
Are you still doing the W2S? I haven't tried this yet and wondered what your thoughts are now about this?
Jane... yikes! What can we expect at the 6 month GS???
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Brenda - don't compare how much you can express with how much a baby can get - I hardly get any milk when I try but DS has a great appetite and is a good weight.
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yeah, i'm just doing the bottle of formula or pumped milk at bedtime (and then i pump after she drinks the bottle to keep up my supply). i just worry that there isn't enough there after a whole day of bf. i had supply issues with dd1. and i can't pump near as much as she takes inthe bottle. i know the baby is more efficient and can get more out but is it 3 or 4 oz difference? like she will take 6 oz in the bottle and follow it by another 5 or 10 min bf and then when i pump after she is finished i will only get 1 or 2 oz...usually if i were to pump before she eats i can pump a lot, 7 or 8 oz... i am doing baby rice and pears at the moment for solids.
i tried w2s for 2 days and it worked for one nap and all others she woke up after i did the w2s earlier than usual so i wondered if it was actually waking her up. i never had any luck with it with dd1 so i stopped trying. i think for us it is a combination of getting the right A time and developmental short naps. yesterday naps were great, so far today we have had 2 short naps. it will be interseting to see how tonight goes after a bad day of naps. i am now aiming for 4 naps today to avoid ot...
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Brenda, so happy that the past few nights have been better for you. Here's hoping you'll have a great night :)
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Yay Brenda!! Hope it continues. Please send those good sleeping vibes my way please! Our nights are still crazy
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spoke too soon...last night was terrible again. i think the messed up naps caused the bad night.
sleepy vibes sleepy vibes...
guess i'll keep trying to get naps back on track.
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Hi Brenda, and everyone else who is having night wakings - it is absolutely hell I know!! We have been having lots of night wakings on and off now for about 4/5 weeks. DS is just over 20 weeks old and has never slept particularly well although the early weeks were heaven compared to now ::) The last 2 nights I have been up every 60/90 minutes and it is killing me :(
We've had numerous issues which i've blamed for the NWs - the dummy, which we successfully weaned him off, possible low milk supply, short naps, illness and possible teething... we've sorted out the dummy (I think - as HV told me to give him back to him due to SIDS but actually he's not as keen on it as he once was) he has recovered from his illness and the naps are back on track. I've started to address the milk issue today but will keep the 7oz formula DF for now until I've built up enough to give EBM then. I've also started baby rice today as I wondered whether hunger was an issue and he absolutely loved it so I am going to give him a little bit more shortly (still keeping BF as main calorie source though).
I dont think the naps or OT is the issue as he can have up to 5 hours sleep a day and then have 3/4 a day and it makes absolutely no difference to his night time. I have fed him once or twice in the night but not every time as I dont believe it is always hunger that is waking him? Like you Brenda I feel as though he is waking and doesn't know how to get himself back to sleep. I will shhh/pat him or rub his back if he turns onto his side (he has just learned to roll over) but sometimes I feel as though this just annoys him and it winds him up when I touch him! And is he now becoming reliant upon having his back rubbed to send him to sleep - how can he learn to do it by himself???
Funnily enough, when I got my DD home from school I took him up for his nap. He didn't settle and cried the minute I laid him down but I had to come out of the room as my DD isn't well and needed me. I could hear him crying (not hysterically though) but I couldn't go straight back in and within 4/5 minutes he'd gone to sleep. After 45 minutes he woke up crying and when I went in to shhh/pat him he became even more agitated. I came out of the room and came downstairs and within 4 minutes he'd gone back to sleep. So, do I leave him for 4/5 minutes at night before I go in?? Have never left him to cry before but having tried everything else I'm not sure what else to do!
How have things gone for you today Brenda? I'll be thinking of you tonight hun when I'm stood at the side of his cot at 2am, 3am....!!! Big hugs.
Michelle.
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hi michelle
i think it is getting better for us. i say think because we will have a couple of good nights, then a terrible night and then an ok night. but i think we are getting there. she hasn't woken up every hour for over a week but we have had nws, just not as bad.
i started letting her fuss and even mantra cry a little more than i was and i think this made a big difference. i still went in if she was really crying hard but then i would leave again once she was calm - sort of walk in walk out. also i think her rolling better has helped. she is a side sleeper and in her sleep would roll onto her back and not be able to get back onto her side so she would cry for me to do it. now she can do it herself - i have watched her on the video monitor wake up, cry out, then start sucking her thumb, roll onto her side and go back to sleep.
i would let him fuss and mantra cry for sure and see if he can calm himself down, this will help your nws.
yesterday and today we have had way better naps. actually saturday was good too, so 3 out of the last 4 days we have had good naps - like 2 long ones and a catnap. so that is huge progress for us. i think it helps the nights, i think part of her wakings were ot related. so last night after a good day of naps she woke at 12, resettled easily, 1 and i fed her and 3:30 and based on what happened the previous night (crying and not settling for a long time and finally falling asleep only to wake 30 min later and me feeding her) i fed her and she slept until 6:15. so maybe she is also having the gs and only 1 night feed wasn't enough for her right now.
anyway, if the good naps continue i think the good nights will follow. fingers crossed and good luck to you too!
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oh Brenda, I'm going to have to try that...DS was up every hour last night. He sleeps on his side, half swaddled in a positioner. Every hour he was waking up and crying and we'd go in there and he's on his back unswaddled. I feel torn waht to do about that...let him fuss and learn to sleep on his own? Keep rolling him over? Help!!!
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might be time to wean the swaddle. if he keeps getting himself out of it that easily but needs to be wrapped to sleep then i'd just get rid of it altogether. once he learns to sleep without it he won't wake so often (hopefully). he may want to be rolling around now too in his sleep. we weaned dd1s swaddle at 5 mo - but not because we had problems, it was because it was too hot. but she did sleep better after we got rid of it.
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hi Brenda, yes I agree with you about leaving him to fuss a bit. I sometimes think I just make him worse when I touch him - it certainly seems to escalate his crying at times. I also think he's definitely a side sleeper too and he'll more often than not settle himself on his side when he can. He tries to suck his fingers too although unfortunately he cant quite manage to do it consistently yet - fingers crossed it happens soon though, am sure it will make a big difference.
oh blimey I can hear him crying now...only went down at 7pm, hope this isnt a sign of things to come tonight - am so desperate for some sleep. just cant figure this little guy out at all :(
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My little guy goes directly to hardcore crying, or he "talks" for anywhere up to 1 hour..so exhausting! In regards to sleeping on his back, if we leave him on his back, he has NEVER gone back to sleep that way. I may need to work on him sleeping on his tummy
last night doesn't count...had a cold, so he was up every 30 minutes. I am dead.
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michelle - he should be able to suck his thumb by now - my lo born june 2nd has been sucking her thumb for 2 months. it was easier for her to do when i wedged her on her side and she sucked the thumb of the bottom hand iykwim. keep working on it, now my lo can suck her thumb in any position - even sitting up which has made car rides so much nicer.
lori - will he sleep on his side? can you wedge him there?
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Lori i feel your pain we went through this exact same thing with DD2 when she was 8weeks old. After talking it over with my DH we decided to try sleeping her on her tummy and she has been the best sleeper ever since then. We tried the sleep positioner to get her to sleep on her side but it didn't work.
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is he rolling yet? dd2 has been a bit better since she started to roll herself. now she will roll herself onto her side to go to sleep. i am still wedging her there because she doesn't like to sleep on her tummy but will roll onto her tummy and can't roll back onto her side or back yet. sigh. can't wait until this rolling milestone is behind us!
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last night was better...in bed at 7:30, awake at 2:30 to eat, awake at 5 am...shh pat...slept 15 min...shh pat...slept 15 min...fed her at 5:30...dozed until 6:15 and then awake for the day.
first nap at 8:30 (wasn't sure how long to keep her up due to awake at 5, a little bit of sleep after this and sort of dozing during feed so watched for cues and this is when she looked tired) it is now 9:30 and she is still sleeping so i think it will be a decent nap.
so...how do you work in feeds around longer A times girls. can't remember what i did with dd1. i think there's a lot of splitting of feeds around naps when they can do more A time but aren't taking in a lot of solids yet? dd1 was behind in A time so by the time she was on 2 naps and doing 3 hours A time she was 8 mo and taking a lot of solids so it wasn't as much of a problem.
mixed up morning:
5 awake but a little bit of sleep on and off until 5:30
5:30 E but dozed until 6:15
7 solids
8:20 top up feed (didn't want her waking early due to hunger)
8:30 - ? nap 1
what would you have done with E with that morning? i plan to feed her when she wakes from nap.
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Hi Brenda, I've just moved DS on to a 4 hour routine so have stuck by the eating every 4 hours regardless of when the naps/sleeps are. I think we are making progress although you do sometimes feel like its one step forward, two steps back! Our nights are much better now though - we are having a good stretch from 11pm dream feed through to 4am. Last night he fed at 12am and woke at 4.40am when I shhh/patted him back to sleep. He woke again at 5.40am and then at 6.20am so I fed him at 6.20am and he went back to sleep until 8.30am which completely threw his routine out! Trying to get back on track now and feed him at 11am so we are back to 4 hourly. He has had some baby rice though so I'm not worried about him starving!
How have your nights been? I just wish we could get past the 4am waking...
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last night was horrible again, actually last few nights have been bad. nothing is working. now she's not only up every couple of hours but up for an hour every couple of hours. does this mean she needs more A time and drop the catnap? she's 6 mo tomorrow.
only good thing is that first nap has been long consistantely for a few days without any intervention, but then the second nap isn't. i don't know if this is because she needs less A rime before it or more. really at a loss. can't read this kid at all.
so yesterday shedid:
7 awake and e
8 solids
9:30-11 s
11 e
1:30-2:15 s...patting...slept until 2:40
2:45 e
4:50-5:30 s
5:30 solids
6:45 e
7:15 bed
11 awake and e
12 awake andright back to sleep
2 awake for an hour...
finally fell asleep for 5 min but then woke up again so i fed her at 3
5 awake for 30 min
6:30 awake and e, right back to sleep
had to wake her up for the day at 7:45
think i need to increase her A time to 2 hours 40 min?
also was the A time before bed too short? she went to bed as usual very easily. she didn't fight going down for any of the naps except catnap took her a little longer but she went down easily.
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Hi Brenda, let me send you a big hug!! It is soooo tough and feels as though its never ending. Our routine is almost exactly the same as yours although the last few nights we seem to have made some progress and I'm not exactly sure why!! Last night he had a DF at 11.30pm and then slept straight until 5.40am!!! The night before he had woken at 5.10am and the night before was 4.40am so he seems to be stretching it out himself. That despite the fact we both have thrush...again :(
I really dont get it though as yesterday his naps were all over the place as we were out most of the day at doctors, osteopath then at a friends and he catnapped on and off. We're normally at home (subject to school run) and I watch the clock. Sometimes I do wonder whether he would be doing this anyway regardless of what he does through the day as it seems as though lots of us try different things with our little ones and yet they all have the same night wakings etc...maybe it is a developmental thing, I dont know... ::)
The only thing I can tell myself is that this wont last forever but its not so easy telling myself that at 3 in the morning!
Did you try extend the A time? How was last night? I struggle doing that as he just cries and rubs his eyes so I kind of have to follow him although we usually make 2 hours which I think is about right for his age? Stopping the night feed has definitely worked for us though as he has stopped waking for that now and takes a good feed at 6/7am.
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yeah, i wonder if she would do this regardless of what i do. this is what dh thinks - he thinks i am wasting my time trying to figure her out and she will just outgrow it when she is ready.
anyway...yes we have stretched out A times to about 2 hours 45 min. she seems to handle it fine - no crying, fussing, etc and goes to sleep like she always does , completely independently. some naps are long with no intervention and most are still short but sometimes i can get her back down.
so 2 days ago she did this:
7:45 awake and E
10-11:45 S
11:45 E
2:15 top up bf
2:35-4:10 S (wake half way but went back to sleep)
4:10 E
6:45 E
7:15 bed
awake at 3:45 to E
awake at 5:15 but resettled easily
awake at 7:15 for the day
perfect...that i can handle
then yesterday: (we travelled on the ferry yesterday so A times were out of whack and S was in the carrier so it was a bit mixed up)
7:15 awake and didn't want to eat
8:30 E
9:50-10 fell asleep in the car on way to ferry
11-11:45 S in carrier, wouldn't go back to sleep
12:30 E
2:30-3:15 S patted and was on and off sleep until 4
6 E
6:15 bed
9 awake
9:30 awake
10 awake
10:30 awake and E
11:30 awake
12:30 awake
3 awake and E
4:30 awake
5:15 awake
6 awake for the day
argh. i know she had way less sleep yesterday than she should have, but was really out of my control with travelling...and she handled it really well, wasn't fussy all day. i put her to bed early and she went right to sleep no problem, no crying, happy as could be - actually she was in bed earlier but talked for a bit before falling asleep.
i don't know. today will be 3 naps probably because she was awake so early and will never do longer than a 1.5 hour nap so i think she will need 3. hopefully she doesn't fight the cn. i think she prefers the longer A times and only 2 naps - i certainly do!!
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what was it you were saying before - 1 step forward, 2 steps back...!!! Last night DS fed at 11.30pm and then woke at 3.50, 5 then 6.30 and it took me half an hour to settle him at 5am, he was all over the place! I ended up feeding him at 3.50 just to get him back to sleep as he woke my DD up (is complicated at moment as well as we both have thrush so I'm not meant to be feeding him myself until clear but had no choice!). He still woke up an hour later though and then wouldn't settle.
Today has been an odd day - it started out well as he went for a 1.5 nap at 9.10am but then woke after half an hour after lunch and after some cajoling went back to sleep for another hour. He's been so unsettled since though - screaming at one point. He had his hands in his mouth and was chewing away furiously and I wonder whether he hurt himself. I am starting to think he is teething although slightly early?? We saw the osteopath on tuesday and she said his head was very tight which is very common when teething. I guess all the good nights we've had so far are over then!!! At least DH is back tonight (he's been away most of this week) so he will get up and settle him so I can get some sleep.
Did you have a better night? Do you think one day it will just all fall into place?? Its the only thing thats keeping me going at the moment! Off to pump now.... ::)
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Michelle - We got over thrush about a month ago, and I continued BF the whole time, I never once pumped. We've had thrush twice now, and both times I fed the whole time, and made sure I just put topical cream on myself every time, after he ate.
It certainly did just "fall" into place with us, I found that the first 5 months or so was just trying to get him into the rhythm of falling asleep on his own with out me feeding to sleep. Now he doesn't fight naps anymore, for the most part, and I am having to pat less and less, sometimes not at all. I'm glad I stuck with it, I just held onto hope that things would get easier. And they did.
Brenda, I found too that when DS had weird naps throughout the day, with a lot of catnapping, he always slept better that night, weird how that works hey?
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I'm glad you said that as all day yesterday, after I'd been to the doctors (and she told me not to feed ::)) I just fed him myself anyway and put the daktarin gel on before and afterwards. Funnily enough he doesn't seem to have any sign of it in his mouth - just on his bits poor thing. Having said that he doesn't seem too bothered by it and its almost gone now. The only reason I haven't fed today is that my poor boobs were so painful and inflamed, thought they might benefit from the stronger cream and a rest! Actually they do look better so I'm going to do bedtime feed as thats my favourite :) Hopefully back to normal tomorrow. I've had it twice now too - isn't it a pain!
By the way I notice you're in Alberta - assume Canada? My husband's Uncle moved out there about 35 years ago - lives in Edmonton - and we keep saying we'll visit. Anya is dying to see a bear!!
And I'm strengthened by your words about it falling into place - it did first time round with Anya although she did sleep through from 10 weeks old, cant have same luck twice huh!! It is getting easier though and he has always gone to sleep independently thankfully - never put him down asleep so all the training is there - just need to get him to stop waking up!! I'd say about 2/3 times out of 10 he will settle himself again though. I only go in once crying becomes louder and louder. Fingers crossed for a good night tonight :)
Sending good luck vibes to you too Brenda ;)
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Yep, I live an hour away from Edmonton. That's so cute about the bears :) Lucky you with #1 sleeping through after 10 weeks!! I wish!
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Absolutely horrendous night last night ??? DF at 10.30pm then woke at 2.30am, 4am, 5am and then 6am!!! What on earth is going on???!! His naps were fine, ate well. I am completely at a loss... :(
My friends keep telling me to let him CIO but I desperately dont want to go down that route, what else can I try??!
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Michelle - Sorry to hear about your rough night. Don't try CIO, this is such a short period in their lives, but I do truly believe that it is one of the most developmental times in a child's life.
Let's check out your routine again, maybe we can tweak it a bit.
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Michelle--I agree with Michelle...post your routine and let's have a look! FWIW, I actually would really recommend creating your own thread, just so more people know that you're looking for advice. Hang in there! There's obviously something going on here that's causing the NWs...CIO won't make it any better...as tempting as it sounds sometimes, I know (we're weaning the swaddle and are experiencing much crying ::)).
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i've seen a bear - not as cute close up when there's not a fence between you and it!
well we went away 2 days ago and her night after the ferry ride travel day was terrible - woke up every hour between 9:30 pm and 5:30 am when was up for the day.
then had 3 naps that day and had a pretty good night - in bed at 6:20 and only up twice to eat but up again at 5:30 am. 3 naps yesterday again and a good night - in bed by 6:45pm, up at 10:30 pm to eat and 3:30 am to eat and slept until 7:30 am. so last 2 nights have been good. also noticed that she has now woken up at night and put herself back to sleep after a bit of fussing a few times now. so i think things will get better once she is solidly on 2 naps. we came home today - so again on the ferry and having some house renos done today so naps will be mixed up and in the carrier/stroller. so tonight will probably not be good but what can you do!
i am hopeful. yes i do think that one day it will all fall into place. dd1 was a hit and miss (mostly miss) sleeper until 7 mo and then just started sttn and hasn't looked back (unless sick) since...although now she is up to go pee in the night but that's ok.
i am hopeful. had a good nights rest the last 2 nights so i am feelingbetter myself which really helps to face the day :D
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well yesterday she had 3 naps : 1 hour, 30 min and 45 min. in bed at 7:15 pm (slept in until 7:30 am that morning), woke at 10:30 and i fed her and then she slept until 6 am :D so almost sttn!! :D i think...i woke up at 6 am and looked at the video monitor and she was already awake and sucking her thumb. i left her in there until she started to make noise which wasn't until 6:30, so i don't really know when she woke up. but today again only 3 short naps (another day out...we'll get back on track tomorrow)...30 min, 1 hour, 45 min. so early to bed tonight and we'll see how it goes after a very long last A time.
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Wow Brenda that is fantastic news!!! ;D I'm so pleased for you!!! And long may it continue!!
We've been away at friends this weekend so routine been all over the place but I'll make a note of what happens tomorrow and I'll start a new thread - lets see if we can put our heads together and sort this little man out before he kills me!! ::) Definitely NOT going to CIO though - couldnt do that to him. I know he needs my help to get through this - its not like he's doing it on purpose to test me...although it sometimes feels like it ;)
Will post on tuesday when we've got through tomorrow. Wish me luck!! xx