BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: namikers on November 30, 2009, 14:06:06 pm
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For the past several weeks my 3 month old has been waking several times between bedtime till the dreamfeed. After the DF, she wakes @1:30 and then again between 4-5 a.m. We are on the 3 hr. EASY. Our bedtime routine is bottle, massage, book and sleep. Tonight she went down at 7:05 and has woken up 4 times so far (it's only 9:45 pm right now!). She woke at 7:10 (paci fell out), 7:45 (I went in a few minutes before 7:45 to see what happens, she woke up and started fussing then crying, I put the paci back in her mouth and my hand on her chest and she fell back asleep), 9:00, 9:45. She can't seem to get into the next sleep cycle. After the DF she only wakes 2x for the rest of the night. And usually it's not a DF because she has woken up again(!) so I just feed her. It's always the early evening that she can't seem to stay down. I don't think the paci's the problem because there are times when she'll spit out the paci and sleep. It doesn't seem to matter what time she wakes up for the day, goes to bed, how good or bad her naps were nor how much or little stimulation she's had thruout the day - I've played around with all the variables. I also considered that she wasn't getting enough to eat in the early evenings possibly cuz of low milk supply so the past few days I've been bottlefeeding her EBM as her last feed before the DF but that doesn't seem to have made any difference either.
Here was our routine today. Activity time is usually infant chair, looking around, tummy time, minigym or interacting with mom or dad.
E 6:30 (this is a bit early, it's usually 7ish)
A
S 7:55
E 9:55 (had to wake her for the feeding, she usually doesn't nap for as long as 2 hrs.)
A
S 11:20
E 1:00 (had to wake her for the feeding)
A longer awake time due to trip to grocery store
S 3:00
E 4:00 (had to wake her for the feeding)
A
S 5:15
E 6:10 (she woke up)
A bedtime routine
S 7:05
How old is your child? 3 months
What’s his/her daily routine? 3 hr. EASY
What’s nap routine? walk in room, cuddle, swaddle, white noise, pat
How long are naps? 1-2 hrs.
What's bedtime routine? Time? between 6:30-7:30, massage, bottle, book
Do you bottle or breastfed?? Breastfeed
How much? or how long? @20-25 min.
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed) both sides
How many wakes per night? 5+
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? Cries but goes back down pretty easy
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? Crying - I don't think mantra
What have you tried to settle?? Put paci back in mouth, pat on back, or if really upset pick up and pat until calm
What do you do for A time and how long is it? infant seat, minigym, interact with mom or dad - all pretty mellow
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? no
Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months) no
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? pacifier, usually only for sleeping
Do they have a lovie? no
Any insights would be greatly appreciated!! My DH and I would love to have a bit of our evening and I would love for DD to get some solid sleep!
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She's 3 months and 1 week. Ok I was thinking OT wasn't the issue since she had napped a total of 5.5 hrs. which Tracy says you shouldn't go over. But I guess it makes a difference in the length of each nap? So are you suggesting to not wake her up from naps? What if she goes over 5.5 hrs of napping - won't that also affect her night sleep? (but at this point she's getting only about 8 hrs. of sleep at night!) I was thinking about the 4 hr. EASY because these past few days she doesn't seem very hungry when it's feeding time. So should I progress towards it by implementing a 3.5 EASY? My only concern is lengthening her A time - she seems pretty tired by the time we put her down for her naps.
Last night she went down at 7 but woke 3 times within the hour because the pacifier fell out! ??? I didn't give it to her for the rest of the night and patted her to sleep, but she slept maybe an 1.10 before she woke again. After 30 min. of trying to resettle I bf - it was past 10 pm. She woke again at 1:15 am (this is habitual which we're trying to break with w2s). Without the pacifier she wouldn't go down for over an hour so I bf and then she didn't wake till 6:30. We're thinking about weaning the pacifier (she's only been using it for a couple of weeks) but she doesn't have a problem with it during her naps. I think because she can't settle in the early evenings, it adds to the problem. So maybe if we sort out her naps and A time, the pacifier won't be a problem at night?
Thanks so much for responding!!! We're pretty frustrated with the early evening NWs here!
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So this was today's routine:
E 6:30
S 8:00, woke up at 8:40 (arm came out of swaddle), tried to resettle for 30 min didn't work so bf
E 9:25
S 10:10, woke up at 10:50 (took 20 min. to resettle)
E 12:30 (I woke her up)
S 1:30 (woke up 2x and had to resettle), went back to sleep at 1:55
E 3:20 (she woke up)
S 5:00 (CN)
E 6:00 (I woke her up)
S 6:50
I tried to keep in mind giving her shorter A time after a short nap, but her 5:00 CN and 6:50 bedtime took a bit longer to settle her to sleep. For most of her naps and this evening she didn't go down with a pacifier. She doesn't always seem to want it. But after her 6:50 bedtime, she woke up at 7:45 (10 min. to resettle) and again at 8:50. At the 8:50 wakeup, DH tried to settle with no success for 30 min. I went ahead and gave her an early DF (well an awake DF!) at 9:15. Usually, she konks out after the DF but she woke up 15 min. after I put her down ??? Took another 15 min. to resettle her. It's now 10:45 pm- and I'm crossing my fingers for the rest of the night.
Tonight she was waking up almost hourly - shouldn't she be into her second sleep cycle at that point?
I'll definitely take your advice about not waking her up to feed, but I should wake her up from a CN - right? I'll let you know how tomorrow goes! Tonight we're going to do the w2s for her habitual 1:15am wakeup. DH w2s last nite at 12:15 but she still woke at 1:15 ??? patience...
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Well the rest of the night was actually worse. She woke again at 12:40, took over an hour to resettle at 1:55. Woke again at 2:40 - I bf her. Woke again at 5:30- tried to resettle but sounded like hunger cry so bf. Stayed awake after bf and tried to resettle. By then it was 6:30 so unswaddled her for the day. When I unswaddled her she was wide awake and began babbling - hard to be mad or annoyed at lo when she's cooing at you. dh is now trying to put her back down (its 7 am). Have a couple of questions.
1. dh w2s at 12:15, but she woke at 12:40- should we keep trying w2s? dh also did it last nite at 12:15 but she still woke at 1:15.
2. up until a few days ago dd has been feeding 2x/nite. but i noticed that she didn't seem very hungry in both feeds so have been trying to cut back to only 1 feed/nite. when she woke at 12:40, it can't be hunger if she resettled right? after she started taking only 1 feed/nite she doesn't wake till morning wakeup (nowadays 6:30!) but this morning she woke up crying and seemed hungry at 5:30 - so maybe it's a gs?
3. I have gone in a few times to help thru the sleep cycle. Only once she resettled quickly, the other times took longer. but if she's waking up hourly like she did tonite in the early evening - rather than at the 45 min mark how do I know when to go in?
Not a great start of the day but hopefully the rest of the day will be better. Thank you so much for all your advice - thru the support of this forum I feel so much more confident that the sleep issues will be resolved sooner than later and it's keeping me sane thru the nights!
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How can a good day of naps end up with a terrible night? After her early wakeup at 5:30, which I couldn't put her back down from the rest of the day went like this
S 7:20
E 9:20
S11:10 (I was in the room when she woke up at 11:45, but she put herself back to sleep ;D)
E12:50
S 2:05 (woke up once and had to be resettled), so slept at 2:15
E 3:45
CN 5:15
E 6:00
S 6:40
I let her wake up from all the naps herself including the CN.
here is where it went all downhill. she wouldn't stay down after her 6:40 bedtime. She woke up 4 times before 9:15. When she woke up at 9:15 I bf her. But again the magic boob is no longer working in putting her to sleep (at least at night she would just pass out after bf), she had to be resettled but kept waking up continuously at
10:25
10:45
12:15 (dh w2s her and she woke up! ???, so no more w2s for us - didn't seem to work anyways)
1:30 - bf her at 2:15 after 45 min. of trying to resettle her, after bf wouldn't sleep till 4:00!!
It's now 4:30 am and so far tonite she hasn't woken up 8 times! It just seems to be getting progressively worse. It can't be OT can it? All her naps today were over 1.5 hrs.! I feel at a loss here.
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another great day of naps, but terrible night!
E 6:45
A
S 8:35
E 10:38
A
S 12:20
E 1:50
A
S 3:20
E 5:10
A
S 6:40
All her naps she woke up on her own. I skipped the CN because it was getting too close to her bedtime and she also had over 5 hrs. of naps. So after her 6:40 bedtime, it again went downhill. She woke up at
7:05 and didn't settle until I bf her at 9:00!
10:35
11:00 woke up 4x and didn't settle until I bf her at 12:45
3:45 bf on one side
It's extremely frustrating that when she wakes up she cannot resettle for hours. Before the 12:45 bf, I sat by her crib to help pass the 25 min. mark. By then she was so OT that her jolts were quite intense and even though I pressed my hands on her chest and legs (which worked before) she still woke up! I'm moving towards the 3.5 EASY but at this point I'm letting her lead the day with as much sleep she can get during the naps since she's getting hardly any sleep at night. I think last night she only got 5 (broken) hrs. of sleep :'(
She woke up this morning at 6:17 and is down for her 1st nap - prob. to start off another great day of naps LOL!
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her naps aren;t the prob. its the nights :-[. all the wakeup times are in the night. how do u suggest i help her thru the next cycle before she wakes up?
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sorry- to clarify i meant that i didn't wake her up from naps - i waited for her to wake up. during her naps she rarely wakes up before 1.5 hrs. she takes great naps, she can go from one cycle to the next (just not at night!!!). again today was a great day for naps but here i am at 9:50 pm and lo went down at 7:30 and again woke up 2x. it's extremely frustrating tishat we can't get this figured out. we've resorted to apop - rocking, swaying, letting her stay up after waking up, bf - but none of it not helping her to go back to sleep. she went on the 3.5 easy today - wasn't much of a stretch because she naturally fell into it herself. it can't possibly be OT still can it? is there another possible explanation that i'm overlooking?
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Hi there,
hope you dont mind i pop in, ive just been having a read of your posts, firstly i wouldnt be focusing on W2S for the 1.15am wake up, you may have to deal with that one later on, try to focus on one thing at a time and deal with it, thats what Tracy says to do.
Now we know she can transition through a sleep cycle because she does it during the day, so what is it that is making her wake up at night? what is different about nightsleep for her? does she have anything different in her bedtime routine or does she sleep in a different room at night, something, anything thats different from her day sleeps to her night sleeps?
You mention she doesnt need the paci for naps but she does for night? I think that might be one of your major issues there, Caleb didnt always need the paci to fall asleep or stay asleep but there were periods of time where his nights were like yours, i nipped it in the bud and weaned teh dummy straight away, he was 4 months old at the time, he had only had a paci for three weeks but it was long enough.
when she wakes at night, do you pat her? if so how long for?
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No - I don't mind you popping in! I need all the insights I can get! She's pretty much weaned from the paci, we haven't used it to help her sleep in the past 2 days. I have used it to help her calm down if she's crying hard, but then she spits it out after she's calm.
She sleeps in a crib in our room - the other rooms in our place are used for our business so we don't have a choice in moving her to her own room. The only difference in nightsleep would be the bedtime routine. During the day, we swaddle her, rock her a bit (maybe 1-2 minutes), turn on the white noise, pat her while holding her if she's fussy and then lay her down in the crib. If she's fussy, dh and I pat her for a few minutes in the crib but she usually drifts off on her own. We use the white noise instead of sshhhing - we weren't very good at the sshhing and the white noise seemed to be just as effective. Bedtime routine is bf or ebm, massage, read a book, swaddle and bed. During our bedtime routine I always play the same cd. When she wakes at night we try to pat her in the crib, but she usually fights against it and so we pick her up and pat her. We pat her until she's calm and then lay her back down. So if she's really upset it can be up to 20 min. of calming her and patting her. If it's just soothing she needs only a few minutes.
Again today she had great naps - two 2 hour naps and one 1.5 hour nap. She transitioned through all the sleep cycles and 10 min. 20 min. jolts. Today she had a 7-7:30 day. Tonite she went down very easily and I stayed with her until after the 20 min. jolts, 5-10 min. after I left the room she woke up crying :-[ It's been 45 min. now and we haven't been able to resettle her (dh is in there with her now). This seems to be a pattern of her waking up anytime before 45 min. after bedtime and not resettling until I feed her again - which I do as a last resort and when it's near the df time. Tonite I topped her off at bedtime with ebm to make sure hunger's not the issue.
On a positive note - the latter part of last night was much better - she woke only 2x after her df. We also gave up on the w2s since it didn't seem to be working anyways!
But it is so frustrating that we can't seem to nip this!
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Does that CD you use for your routine play all night or only when she is first falling asleep? Wondering if she is looking for something familiar when she is restless/slightly waking and she is used to that and doesn't have it later on?
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it's playing thruout her naps and at night - we have noisy upstairs neighbors.
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would w2s work for the first sleep cycle? I feel that if she could transition pass the first sleep cycle then she would be able to make it thru most of the night. If I did w2s at what point before the 45min. would I do it at?
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thats a tricky one, if its always 45mins then it might work, i would try it at the 25-30min mark, then perhaps go back in at 40mins and HTTJ? just to get her past it
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Well she sometimes wakes up at the 20 min. mark like she did tonite. So maybe the w2s won't work? What does HTTJ mean?
On the brighter side - last night she only woke once from 11pm-7am ;D so the late night wakings have improved drastically but I'm guessing it's cuz she's so exhausted from not sleeping in the early part of the evening!
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holding through the jolts
You place one hand on your baby’s legs, other on their chest and attempt to assist them through the jolts. You would do this a few mins before the jolts that wake them occur. You apply pressure until they stop jolting, plus about 5 mins. If they haven’t moved more, you can stand back and see what happens. If they fully wake you will have to employ your typical method of sleep to send them back to sleep. Some babies you have to also shield their eyes with your hand to stop them from looking around. If you use a paci you can re insert the paci when and if your baby looks for it. This would be when they are searching for it with their mouth.
This is usually used for naps when waking from OT at the 30-45min mark but i think you may be able to use it if its early in teh evening. when they get OT they jolt hard between sleep cycles and this can wake them.
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We do HTTH and sometimes it works if her jolts aren't too intense. Last night at her bedtime I let her fall asleep in my arms (during nightfeeds we have to for 20 min. because she has mild reflux) and held her hoping that it would help her pass the 45 min. mark. But she woke up at 45 min. and didn't go back down for another 45 min. (to only wake up again and again). When she wakes up it's with a jolt and cries really hard as if someone's pinching her. This morning I noticed that she has dark circles under her eyes :'( :'(! Although it's overcast today, I'm going to take her on a short walk outside after her afternoon nap, I read somewhere that fresh air helps babies to sleep? I feel at such a loss here - we can't seem to break this cycle.
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forgive me if you have already answered this but do you swaddle her? if shes jolting that hard a good tight swaddle will really help
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we do swaddle her with a receiving blanket. we also have a velcro swaddle that we stopped using, but i think tonite i'll swaddle her with that since i can always get a tighter swaddle with it and see if that doesn't do anything.
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she usually sleeps so well during the day that we have to wake her up or she'll go beyond 2 hrs. Does it sound like she might have gotten her days and nights mixed up?
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Great news - lo slept for 1.5 hrs. last nite after putting her down before she woke up ;D! I don't know exactly what helped make that happen but I used the velcro swaddle and tried w2s. She's also switched to a 3.5-4 hr easy about a week ago so maybe all those factors played a role? Tonite I'll w2s again and keep my fingers crossed that she'll sleep pass 45 min. again! but today's naps are off - lol if it's not one thing it's another with the sleep issues :P
I have a question - if lo naps for 30 min. and wakes up and is resettled then sleeps for another 1 hr. is that nap considered a good 1.5 hr nap and so she gets regular A time or is that considered a short nap so her A time should be shortened as well?
many thanks!
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if lo naps for 30 min. and wakes up and is resettled then sleeps for another 1 hr. is that nap considered a good 1.5 hr nap and so she gets regular A time
yes and yes :)
well done on the 1.5 hour sleep before she woke up! i know she still woke so thats not so great but at least it wasnt at 45mins, if you do change things you need to give it about three days to see good results so keep up the good work
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Looks like I celebrated too soon. Last night was completely disastrous. She barely slept from bedtime (8pm) to 1:30. Desperate to get her to sleep I tried nursing her to sleep. She spent an hour on my left breast (I fell asleep) but lo didnt fall asleep so I spent another hour feeding her on my right breast (I fell asleep again). She finally fell asleep - this was around 3 am - to wake up again at 4:30 and then at 6:50 for the day. DH usually spends the first morning A time with her and puts her to sleep. Miscommunication and sleep deprivation on our part resulted in lo having 2 hrs of A time! Well her whole day was terrible. She was way OT and didn't have a real nap till 4 pm! She finally crashed for a little over 2 hours. Today was full of APOP - nursing to sleep, singing, rocking, using the Bjorn. It's now 10:20 pm and it's another night of struggling to put her down.
In the past 1-2 weeks we put her on the 3.5 EASY. The suggested 3.5 EASY on this forum seems incorrect with the A time. My question is at this point should her A time be around 1.4? Maybe if I tweak the times in her new routine it'll do something but at this point I'm really letting her lead the day with her naps - she is losing out on so much sleep!
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awww sorry it went all pearshaped!
at the moment dont focus too much on A timing, while she is OT you need to bring it all back a bit to let her catch up and get back on track
for her daytime naps to help her out can you take her for a walk in her pram or in the car to help get some extra sleep into her at all?
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she's not a fan of carseats :( and she'll only sleep in a carrier for the first sleep cycle. but the other day when she didn't nap till 4pm(!), i did take her out in the carrier although she woke when we got back in she resettled in the crib for an extended nap - yea. today was much better - solid 2 hr. morning nap, broken up 2 hr. afternoon nap and broken up 1.5 hr late afternoon nap. lo of course woke up at the 45 min. mark after being putting down for the night, so dh is in with her now trying to resettle her (i bf her but she doesn't fall asleep the way she used to!).