BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: DualTracy on December 30, 2009, 09:39:09 am
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Hello all,
Please forgive me for not using the acronyms - I'm new to writing messages to this board and I haven't learnt them yet!
My son Corey will be six months old on 10 January. He is happy and healthy and weighed nearly 17 lbs at his last weigh-in, which is exactly at the 50th percentile. I would put his EASY schedule in, but it varies (I know it shouldn't) and always has. He wakes up at 7am, almost on the dot, and his activity times are usually 2 hours. He has three naps, two 45 mins and one 1 1/2-2 hrs, though I never know which of the three will be the longest (it's usually the first or second). He wakes giggly from all his naps, so I think they're the right length for him. Early attempts to lengthen the shorter ones were disastrous, and he seems to have his own little internal clock.
He slept through the night for the first time the day he turned three months old, and for the next two months either slept through or woke once and went down again quite easily. However, the four-month sleep regression hit very hard, and he was waking every other hour. We managed to get that sorted until he was waking twice - once early on, when my husband put him back down again, and once later, when I fed him (he is breastfed). PU/PD worked very well with him.
However, over the last two weeks his sleep has gone completely haywire. He goes down at 9 (I know that the book recommends earlier, but we can't - we live in a noisy flat - and when we have tried he slept very badly), and pops back up within an hour. I initially thought he was overstimulated, but that is no longer possible - we've slowed down his evenings to a crawl, with no effect. When he does wake, he screams and screams, and PU/PD has no effect whatsoever - I think it might even be making it worse. I eventually feed him, and he takes a full feed - but he would eat all day if it were up to him, so I don't know how indicative that is. He doesn't drop back off to sleep easily, either. We're often up for nearly two hours trying to get him back down, and he wakes again 2-3 hours later.
Last night we bought some Actamil and gave him a bottle, and he downed 2/3 of it after already having been fed for the night, but it had no effect on his sleep. When he woke I fed him again and then got him to sleep by putting him down 'asleep' and then holding his arms lightly for 15 minutes until he was deeply asleep - which I've never had to do before. (He puts himself down for naps now by sucking his thumb until he drops off. He does't seem to be able to do this at night). I'm destroyed, but he's his usual cheery self this morning, as always!
I was wondering about a growth spurt, but previous ones have lasted less than a week. He doesn't act hungry during the day, but he would literally eat all day if given the choice, and has always been a good eater. He's not hot or cold, his nappies aren't dirty, I've dropped his stimulation to nearly nothing, I think he might be hungry but I can't tell. I've never left him to cry it out. I feel like I'm doing things horribly wrong but I don't know what. Please, any suggestions would be wonderfully helpful!
(By the way, we're moving to a house next month, and hopefully that will leave us a bit freer when it comes to noise!)
Thanks for any thoughts,
DualTracy
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I know there is no regular pattern to his routine but could you post just a sample day? I'll stick my neck out and say that if he's only sleeping 10hrs at night it's very, very likely that he's overtired, and that would also explain why he's waking soon after going down and is inconsolable.
He might also be ready for a bit more A time during the day which might help to extend some of those naps. Have you tried white noise in his nursery to drown out other sounds and help him to sleep at an earlier bedtime? As a guide, an 'ideal' routine at 5.5 months might look like this:
E/A: 7am
S: 9.15am
E/A: 11am
S: 1.30pm
E/A: 3pm
S: 5.30pm catnap
A: 6pm
E: 6.45pm
S: 7pm asleep for the night
E: 10.30pm dreamfeed
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Hi Anna*,
Thanks for your comments! I did try a dreamfeed back when I first started with the Baby Whisperer (he was around 2 months old), but all it did was wake him up! I gave up after a week straight of waking my already-sleeping baby. I think it's a good idea in principle, but it didn't work for us.
Here's a typical day:
Wake/eat: 7am
S: 9.30
EA: 11
S: 1
EA: 1.45
S: 4
E: 4.45
catnap: 6.15
bath: 8.30
Roughly! Yesterday he had two long naps, one 45 min, and no catnap. That's very normal.
Haven't tried white noise - will look it up! At the moment it's not noise that wakes him, but it certainly can't hurt.
Best,
DualTracy
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The routine above would work without a dreamfeed, it's totally fine to leave him to wake naturally. Looking at your routine above, I think you could go for 2.25hrs A time after a long nap and I would definitely try to bring bedtime forward. 4.45-8.30pm with only a little catnap is a really long time, which will be leaving him OT at bedtime. What do you think?
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Hi Anna*,
Thanks again - it's SO nice to have someone to talk to! (If you know what I mean.)
You're right, it is a long time between that last wake and bedtime. If I can, I get in a catnap (the ideal is for him to wake up at 6.30 from his final sleep before bed) - 4.45 is a worst-case scenario. Yesterday he woke at 5.15, which wasn't great but was...okay.
Right again that his activity time after his long nap tends to be longer. In fact, some days he goes for three hours before he starts to look tired, but that's the exception. At the moment, the only sign of his rotten nights is that his A time after naps has become an almost exact 2 hours, regardless of the length of his naps. Here's today so far:
Wake/Eat: 7
S: 9
E/A: 10.30
S: 12.30-?
So I would be willing to bet that the rest of the day will look like this:
E/A: 1.15
S: 3.15
E/A: 4
catnap: 6-6.30
I'm getting so that I dread nights now. My husband is wonderful and doing what he can, but he is no longer able to get Corey back to sleep - only I seem to be able to do it now, with great difficulty. Could it be a separation anxiety thing? I never really thought about that until just now.
Also I should add that when he seems to be extra drooly/chewy we give him Calpol, and that we've stopped swaddling him because he started to fight it so hard - he seems much happier now in his sleeping bag. He never took a pacifier, although we tried with about every variety there is! He's a consummate thumbsucker. I tired to figure out what type of baby he is, but found it very difficult because he's still so young (many of the descriptions seemed more useful for describing toddlers). I'd guess he's somewhere between Textbook and Spirited. He's hyperalert, but not in a bad way - he notices EVERYTHING and always has, but it doesn't bother him like I gather it would a Touchy baby.
Whew! Can you see how relieved I am to be on this forum? Feel free to gag me if necessary...
Best,
DualTracy
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He's really young for separation anxiety, so I'm still betting on OT. Two long naps plus a catnap is perfect, so I think that the late bedtime is the culprit - it's really worth trying to get a 12 hour night. I would try to make sure he is not awake for more than 2.5hrs before bedtime, or 1.5hrs after a catnap.
The other thing to check is on how you are doing PUPD? Do you hold him until he is calm? At this age I would hold him for not more than a minute, then lay him back down even if he is still crying. Try to settle him in his cot and pick up again if he is not showing any signs of settling. The thing with PUPD, is whatever you do, don't cave and feed. If you're doing it at bedtime or for a night waking, keep going until he is asleep. You can feed him at the next waking - what you DON"T want to do is PUPD for a little while and then feed. It just sends mixed messages.
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The more I think about it, the more I think you're right obout overtiredness. The problem is logistical (and any ideas are warmly welcomed...) Our current flat is about 450 sq. ft. At the moment we go to bed when Corey does, for the simple reason that our being awake continuously woke him up. When we first started going to bed at 8.30, it was like paradise, because his longest sleep was at the start and we got a nice long snooze. Now, of course, that's out the window.
My husband doesn't get home until 6.20, so in order to get him to bed at 7.30 he'd have just over an hour between getting home and bedtime. This will all become moot in a month or so - we're just a few weeks away from moving into our first house, which has the bedrooms upstairs (hallelujah!), but until then we're sort of trapped.
Any ideas?
Thanks again - you're rapidly becoming my favourite person in the world!
Best,
DualTracy
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So are you guys all sleeping in the same room?
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Nope. It was one bedroom, then it was partitioned by the owners with some rubbish thin board into one small room and one tiny room. His room is first on the right through the front door, our is second, bathroom is straight ahead, lounge on left and kitchen off the lounge. Altogether it's almost a perfect square. A small one.
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If he's in his own room I would investigate white noise - you can turn it up loud and it will muffle all the other noises from the flat. I don't know where you are in the world and I had the Little Sleepyhead CD (UK based) which has tracks on it like 'Tumble Drier', 'Vacuum Cleaner' etc. Other parents put on a fan all night (although you can't control the volume on that one) or tune a radio in to static noise. We played 'tumble drier' on a loop through Stan's naps when he was little, so that a ring on the doorbell or a noisy neighbour wouldn't wake him. I'm sure you could download a track off the internet and play it on a loop - you could just play it until your bedtime, then sneak in and turn it off when things are quieter.
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We'll definitely look into it. In the meantime, we'll just try to get through the next few nights as well as we can! I think it will take some time before he stops waking straight after going down, unfortunately... :( And I'm still not sure why PU/PD has stopped working. My husband has some time off coming soon, so maybe we can try changing his bedtime then.
Best,
DualTracy
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How does he settle for naps and at the beginning of bedtime, do you use PUPD at those times? If it is OT that is the problem here, it is very common that PUPD will not work - or is much harder to make it work - with an overtired baby. Waking soon after going down is a really classic sign of OT (overtiredness), so you may find that getting him down earlier just knocks that problem on the head.
You know, it could be something else that is the problem but this is one factor that is just jumping out, and it would be odd to start looking at other causes when he's doing a 14 hour day! If he's still having probs after that, we can look at it again.
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That's the weird thing - he settles himself for naps (thanks to PU/PD) with minimal intervention. Sometimes he goes down all giggly and chatty, and I leave him to it - if he starts to cry, I only have to pick him up once, put him down, and he's away. I feed him to sleep for bedtime, and again, no sweat - either he is asleep or he puts himself to sleep soon after. That's why the whole thing just seems so strange to me, I guess. He NEVER wakes before 45 minutes at least during naps, but all of a sudden he can't sleep for longer than half an hour at night? I guess I thought that if he were overtired, he'd be overtired all the time, not just at night. And you're right, PU/PD is nearly impossible with him at night now (though, again, works fine during the day).
Does this make sense, or am I describing an impossible scenario? I'm so tired now that it wouldn't surprise me at all...
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Overtiredness accumulates throughout the day, so it's not at all an impossible scenario. If he's really tired at bedtime he'll conk out but then wake up screaming a bit later. Has he started solids yet? I guess another possibility is that it has become habitual in which case you could rule that out quite quickly - I would suggest staying in his room after he has fallen asleep and after about 30 mins just stroke his cheek. You don't want to wake him, just cause him to stir in his sleep. If he does wake it's not the end of the world because you will be right there, and can (we hope) help him to get back to sleep by usng shush-pat or whatever you can find that will soothe him before he gets a full head of screaming steam up.
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Okay. He hasn't started solids yet but will shortly - will that cause even more disruption? I think I mentioned we gave him a bottle with formula last night and he sucked it down - it didn't seem to make any kind of impression, good or bad (which is kind of a good thing). Should we continue doing that?
I think sleeping badly and waking quickly after going down is a habit now, but it's not the same time every night - sometime between 9.30 and 11. Ish. Is it worth waking him?
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If it's not the same time every night I doubt it's a habit. You could still try staying in there with him, but you really don't want to be sitting in there for two hours!
As for the formula, if it didn't affect his nights then it's really just your preference whether you want to continue with it or stick to BF exclusively.
The solids shouldn't cause trouble if you start slowly, start with breakfast and only add other meals once he's tolerating each new food well. Was just trying to brainstorm other things that might be going on. I've asked a friend to take a look here to see if she can spot anything other than OT.
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You are wonderful - I'm so glad I've come here!
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You are so nice that I'm getting teary. I think I'm OT too...
So I made things worse last night by taking him to bed with me, which I haven't done for months (since I bought the book, as it happens). We tried to put him down 15 minutes earlier than usual, and he was insanely tired already. I fed him and put him down, and he seemed asleep, so I kept my hands on him for about 25 minutes, until my back started to spasm, to be honest. I thought he was properly asleep, so I left - and he woke up within three minutes. After almost two hours where he never dropped off again I was nearly in tears and desperate, so I just took him to bed with me. He slept great, woke twice to eat and promptly dropped off again. Woke at 7.15, happy as Larry, and has just gone off for his morning nap (which he is doing despite cleaners banging around the common areas of the building and the delivery of our groceries!)
We're trying to find out how to buy a white noise CD/maker etc. I expect it will be noisy tonight, for obvious reasons. Aside from that, he cannot settle at night at all now - I thought it couldn't get worse, but it has, and now I've accidental parented as well. I was just so desperate. PU/PD is doing nothing anymore (though again, it works if he needs it for naps, and very quickly too.)
Good news: my husband finishes work today and then is off for all of January and February (he wanted to be a full-time parent, even if only for a little while, so that he could properly experience fatherhood), so for January we'll both be home and neither will be working (I go back to work in February). We won't have any problem putting him down early - we'll just eat earlier, which is no bad thing! We're tempted to just put him down for 7.30 tonight, even though that's a big jump from usual, because he was so knackered last night and because there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in anything else - he can't sleep no matter what time he's going down.
Our bedtime routine has been the same for months now, though we want to change one thing. We start winding down at 8pm, all TV etc off and just holding him and talking to him (he's very cuddly and sucks his thumb when he's tired). We start his bath at 8.30, which he adores - so much so that we think it actually revvs him up. Then it's pyjamas and sleeping bag (he started getting hysterical about swaddling, so we've stopped), feed and bed.
Last night we did the bath at 8pm, and then read to him to see if we could calm him down after the bath. I think it's a good way to go in the long term, but obviously I have no idea if it had any effect last night.
Anyway, I'm out of ideas and starting to lose my mind. He's so wonderful, and I feel like I'm failing him somehow!
Thanks again, a LOT,
DualTracy
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When you say PUPD doesn't work at night, how long are you doing it for? I think putting him to bed early is a good idea. If he can sleep through noise in the daytime, I'm sure he can do it at night? Do you have an ipod or similar and speakers? If so I am sure you can download a white noise track from the internet and could start using it straight away. He really needs to be asleep no more than 12.5hrs after he wakes in the morning if you're going to keep overtiredness at bay.
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I completely agree. We're going to aim for 7.30 tonight. And the ipod is a great idea - we'll see what we can do (thogh he can sleep through noise during the day - just not at night. No, it doesn't make any sense.)
Last night I did PU/PD for two hours before I gave up (starting to worry about the neighbours, and also my back was going.) (And my temper.) I've never had to do it for that long before, not even when we were first using it months ago. And it had absolutely no effect whatsoever, either - his crying and screaming stayed the exact same the entire time. He stops when I pick him up, starts when I put him down, ad infinitum. He sometimes puts his thumb in his mouth and turns his head as if he's trying to put himself down, but almost immediately pulls it back out again to cry. I've tried leaving him in the cot and just holding/patting him, I've tried actually leaning down and keeping my face against his all the way on the mattress, which works temporarily but then doesn't. My husband actually used to be better than I was at getting him down, and now can't do it at all - his screams ratchet up when he tries, which makes me think you're right about my being a prop now. Having said that, I'm not much of one, since I still can't get him to sleep!
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(((hugs))) fingers crossed that tonight is a little easier for all of you. Let us know how it goes.
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I will! I have no great hopes for tonight, but maybe things will improve over time, with an earlier bedtime and some nice white noise.
Thanks again!
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Hi Jane,
You know, I hadn't even thought about it, but I'm sure I could move my breastfeeding chair to be next to his cot. See? The mind does go with lack of sleep.
I never managed to get shh/pat right. It seemed to wake him up more (he is pretty hyperalert) and now that he's not swaddled he just grabs my arm. We tried to swaddle for as long as we could, but he started arching almost entirely backwards and freaking out a couple of weeks ago, and only relaxed when we took him out of it. He really likes his sleeping sack, though he seems to have to have a good play with the bars of his cot now before he goes to sleep for naps. ::)
We say shh shh when we're doing PU/PD, and though it doesn't seem to do a thing, we'll keep doing it.
He's been teething for months now, though it seems to make him more whiney than anything else. We give him Calpol on those days (he had some last night, for example). Otherwise I've seen no evidence of any sorts of pain.
Given that I got it wrong last night, how long does it take to get into a deep sleep?
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I was listening to his breathing, but it was rather erratic - probably should have taken that as a sign. He still sleeps on his back, which is actually harder because he can see me! Glad to hear I'm not the only one to try the face-to-face thing. It does work, but again, only until I take it away.
I'll pull his feeding chair over and see if that saves my back a bit!
With the white noise - do you just leave it on all night?
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Hmm.
So last night we got him down for 7.30 (well, I fed him at 7.30, he was asleep at 7.45). I stayed with a hand on him for about half an hour, and he did jolt a few times, but didn't wake up. He did wake up at 8.45, screaming, so we tried to get him down. He sometimes tried to put his thumb in his mouth, but would take it out immediately and scream even harder - he was all catarrh-y by 9.30 from screaming, when I decided to feed him again and put him down. I stayed with him until 10pm. He woke at 12.20 (happy new year!), screaming as if he were on fire. I tried to feed him and put him down, but he was wide awake and nowhere near going back down, so once again we took him into bed with us (that's twice in a row now). He woke a couple of times, I fed him and he went straight back to sleep. He finally woke this morning at 7.15, very bright-eyed (I hadn't noticed they had been bloodshot before).
So...on the good side, we tried the white noise, and it was great - obviously it was pretty noisy last night from the new year, but I know it wasn't noise that woke him up (we brought the stereo with us to our room with him). Also, he stayed down for an hour after we put him down the first time, which is...better.
On the not-so-good side, we still can't figure out how to settle him. He still jolts awake so strongly that my holding him doesn't do anything, and when he wakes a second time there's no chance of getting him back down. We're starting to lose the will to live.
Please tell me what to do now! I'm so stressed that I can't eat dinner now, and I worry all day. He's his little happy self, perfect except for at night.
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I don't know, I'll be interested to hear what Jane thinks but I think if you're going to try PUPD you have to persist with it and be consistent. If you try to settle him for 45 mins and then feed him, you're just teaching him that he needs to cry for a really long time.
But, I'll be interested to hear if Jane is spotting something I'm not.
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Absolutely. Husband has now taken over, and tonight we are going to stick with it. Lucky we gave the neighbours chocolates and earplugs for Christmas...
Let you know how it goes.
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Okay! Here are last night's stats:
Down at 7.45pm.
Wake 8.30, PU/PD 50 min until asleep 9.20
Wake 12.00, PU/PD 40 min until asleep 12.40
Wake 1.25, PU/PD 20 min until asleep 1.45
Wake 2.30, PU/PD 25 min until asleep 2.55
Wake 3.40, PU/PD 10 min until asleep 3.50
Wake 4.35, PU/PD 5 min until asleep 4.40, when he slept until...
We got him up at 7.
I should mention that my husband did the whole thing, all night. We didn't take him to our bed, we didn't feed him. When we got him up at 7, he was tired but smiley, and had a good (but not overly desperately hungry) feed. He just went down for a 9am nap, which he settled for in about 3 minutes. (EDITED TO ADD: He woke up happy after 45 minutes, so I went in a did PU/PD for about 35 minutes and left him quietly sucking his thumb. Hopefully he'll fall back to sleep. If not, when he yells again it'll be 1 1/2-2 hours, so it's okay.)
So although it was a rather rugged night, we're both pretty chipper this morning. It took steadily less time to get him down each time, pretty much. The longest was 50 min, which is shorter than the previous night's hour and a half, and the night before's 2+ hours. We didn't feed him, and he seemed okay with that (he should be. He's a big strapping baby!)
We know it'll be rough for the next few nights too, but I think we see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Oh yes. Here's the new bedtime routine:
Bath 6.30, and into pyjamas. He adores baths so much that they're no longer just before bed because he has so much fun that they definitely rev him up (he squeals with joy when we start to run it).
All noise off except for CD of lullabies. We both give him a good cuddle and lots of hugs.
7.10 I take him to the window and sing to him (this is the nap wind-down routine, and he seems to like it).
7.15 into his room, white noise Ipod on (that stuff is the business!), into his sleeping sack, light off, door shut, feed and bed.
Today we're going to pretend he's never been on EASY and start fresh. If this nap isn't 1 1/2 hours, I'll do PU/PD until it has been, and go from there.
You guys have been a huge source of comfort and advice for both my husband and I (him, this morning: 'don't forget to post last night! See what they say!' ;D) We're not through the woods yet, and any more advice is always welcome. I'll let you know how it goes - I may be back and sobbing into your collective arms tomorrow!
DualTracy
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Hey that was GREAT work!! Well done!
At this age it's really not unreasonable for him to want a feed or two at night so you could do a dreamfeed at about 10.30 - you never know, it might prevent a couple of the NWs.
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Yay!
We did try dreamfeeds very early on, but as I breastfeed and he's Mr Alertpants, it just woke him up completely. He seemed to deal fine with not being fed, and since we're planning to start baby rice next week, hopefully he won't need the calories.
Off to go wake him up now!!
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Thank you so much! We couldn't have done it without you two.
The rest of today: we woke him at 11, he ate like a trouper, went back down at 1pm (after I said 'huh, do you think he'll be tired enough?') pretty much immediately, woke after an hour and 10 minutes, husband did PU/PD until it was an hour and a half, then fed again. Catnap at 5 for 40 minutes, no sweat.
We're not out of the woods yet, obviously, but we started feeding him at 7.30 (fell asleep around 7.50ish). He woke up precisely 45 minutes later (argh, but then again, it wasn't three minutes after being put down!) Husband went to do PU/PD, and he was back down in three minutes!!!!!
We're both a little shocked. In a good way, of course, but wow, didn't expect it to go so easily! Wonder what the rest of the night will be like...
Thank you both, again - I wish we could send you a box of chocolates! It makes such a difference to have nice people giving us sound advice and cheering us on. As a friend once said, 'may someone else do for you one day'.
DualTracy, cautiously ecstatic
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:-*
This is a wonderful update!!!
Expect a regression - things often get better, then worse, before they get better again. Stay consistent and focussed and calm and you will soon be on the other side and a much happier and better rested family!!
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Oh, no problems there - we have been discussing regressions almost as much as we've been discussing what a good night's sleep would feel like! (I did see in the BW book that boys in particular are prone to regressions). Do they regress forever - four good days, one bad, or a good month followed by a diabolical week, etc - or is there ever a point where, except for things like illness, they become 'good sleepers'?
Fingers crossed for the rest of the night - I expect we'll be up and down again, but hopefully it'll be much easier to put him down.
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You know, there's always something. They're teething, or they're working on motor milestones, or they're a bit older and they need a routine tweak, or it's a growth spurt, or they're going from 4 naps to 3, or 3 to 2, or 2 to 1... but having an independent sleeper is a BIG help along the way.
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Oh good - so this isn't a neverending process! That gives me hope.
Last night:
Down at 7.50pm.
Wake 8.35, PU/PD 3 min until asleep 8.40
Wake 11.20, PU/PD 35 min until asleep 11.55
Wake 1.05, PU/PD 10 min until asleep 1.15
Wake 1.45, PU/PD 10 min until asleep 1.55
Wake 3.35, PU/PD 45 min until asleep 4.20, when he slept until...
We got him up at 7.
On the plus side:
there were five wakings, instead of six
most were much shorter to put down
we seem not to have had any 45 min cycle wakings
On the hmmmmm side:
not sure why it took so long to get him back down after the last waking
not sure why his longest sleep is from the last waking until we have to get him up at 7
So an improvement, I think, but not a huge one! Any thoughts?
DualTracy, still tired but hopeful :-\
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early mornings can be difficult to settle because they're much more rested than in the earlier part of the night and so they have more energy to resist for longer! Also likely that he's quite hungry by that time too.
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Youguysyouguysyouguys:
Last night:
Down at 7.50pm.
Wake 9.00, PU/PD 20 min until asleep 9.20
Dreamfeed* 10.30, PU/PD until 10.55
Wake 5.45, PU/PD 40 min until asleep 6.25, when he slept until...
We got him up at 7.
;D :o ;D
* We talked about the dreamfeed and realised that you were very right, 12 hours is a long time to ask (although he seemed okay with it). So we tried it as a team - husband picked him up and gave him to me, I fed him (he stayed alseep, largely), husband picked him up and put back into cot (when he partially woke up, but didn't take long to put back down again. Probably about 10 minutes).
The neighbours probably think we moved. Corey was giggly for two hours straight this morning and has just gone down for his 9am nap. We are still slightly stunned.
Three things:
1) We know that things may go haywire again tonight, but we know it'll end up sorted.
2) We wanted to start him on baby rice today - is it too early to introduce things? He'll be six months old on the 10th, and he is at the trying-to-grab-our-food stage. We don't want to mess with his sleep, but we think he'd like to start solid food.
3) This week will be disrupted by the installation of double-glazing at our block of flats. The white noise will definitely help, but nothing can drown out hammers and drills. How do we keep things on track during the day?
Wildly happily,
DualTracy
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Amazing progress!!! :-* This kid obviously knows what he is doing ;)
It's not to early to start on a little bit of solids. Start with breakfast for a week or so, then you can add lunch. Best to introduce new tastes at breakfast then move them to lunch as they are tolerated. That way you can make sure that any tummy troubles are sorted well before bedtime so you don't undo all your good work!
Re the building works, there's not much you can do. Turn the white noise up loud (he may surprise you). If his naps are cut short, make sure you get him down early for his next nap, and if the whole day's naps are shot, do a super early bedtime. If he will nap in his pushchair you may have to resort to that but try not to do it for all naps every day.
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Oh I also wanted to add, if he's falling asleep closer to 8pm, you could let him sleep til 7.30 in the morning. We want to aim for a 11.5-12 hour night.
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That's true - will have to see how it shakes out.
Today has been a bit of a mess. His first nap was an hour and half, all by himself! The second was interrupted at 45 minutes by the window installers, who were so loud they pretty much shorted his monitor. Only the dead could sleep through that, though he did try, bless him. We called it a day and I took him out for a walk, where he slept for about 20 minutes-ish. (He's never been a big napping-in-strange-places kid.) We tried to do the catnap, but he wasn't really tired enough yet and we gave up at about 5.30. We've given him his bath at 6, rather than 6.30, so he'll go down half an hour early.
I really hope we haven't just undone everything!!
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Day Four:
Down at 7.10pm. (Early night due to nap weirdness.)
Wake 9.20, PU/PD 10 min until asleep 9.30
Dreamfeed 10.30, PU/PD until 11.20
Wake 4.00, PU/PD 100 min until asleep 5.40, when he slept until...
We got him up at 7.
So...he woke during the dreamfeed and was difficult to get back down. And the hour and forty minutes to get him back down at 4 in the morning was a little bit awful.
On the up side, no more wakings than the previous night. And he was down for over two hours from when we put him to bed for the night, which is getting better.
Any thoughts about why he's so crazy difficult to get down when he does wake up now?
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It could be a routine issue, do you want to post your EASY? It could also be that regression we've been waiting for...
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I'm tempted to say that it might be the expected regression, but might also be the sheer interference of the building works, which are just obnoxious (though not at 4am...)! Is such a long PU/PD time indicative of a regression?
EASY:
E/A: 7am
S: 9.00
E/A: 10.30-11
S: 1pm
E/A: 2.30-3.00
S: 5.00
E/A: 5.45
bath: 6.30
lullabies and cuddles: 6.50
feed and bed: 7.20
Today has already been thrown by drilling - he went down at 9.15 but didn't actually get to sleep until 10.00 (partially because he was playing in the cot, partially because every time he got quiet, they'd knock out a window in the building). He went to sleep at 10, woke at 10.45, husband did PU/PD for five minutes and he went straight back down. We'll wake him at 12 if he isn't up already.
Argh, everything was going so well, and now we're at the mercy of bloody builders!
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I feel it may also be routine because with all this good sleep he is getting he may need more A
Funny you mention it - husband and I were just saying that today. At 9 he looked perfectly chipper and happy, and spent quite a lot of time roaming around his cot when we put him down (how can he get himself all over the cot while in a sleeping bag, when he can't yet move around on his playmat? The mind boggles). We waited until 9.15 to put him down, but I think he might have been okay until 9.30. We're both just so afraid to change anything until everything is sorted!
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It could be any of those things. Regression is any kind of getting worse - so yes PUPD taking longer could totally be regression.
Your routine is good, but I'm still thinking an earlier night could help - if his last feed is 7.20 he's probably not asleep until close to 8? You could also try pushing A times up to 2hrs 15 mins but I wouldn't go further than that because OT is a real pain.
I'm also wondering if he's hungry at 4am, which is why that's the hardest time to resettle.
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I'm actually less inclined to think he's undertired because he's not awake and happy at his night wakings is he - he's crying when you go into him?
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Your routine is good, but I'm still thinking an earlier night could help - if his last feed is 7.20 he's probably not asleep until close to 8? You could also try pushing A times up to 2hrs 15 mins but I wouldn't go further than that because OT is a real pain.
I'm also wondering if he's hungry at 4am, which is why that's the hardest time to resettle.
We could try to get him to bed at 7.30, by starting to get him down earlier. The only problem is that when we are both back at work (not until March, but still) we won't be able to do that because we'll have only just got home. We'll have to get him up at 7am in order to get him to the nursery in time, so we can't let him sleep in longer than that. (I am dreading sending him to nursery, but that's another issue, and another thread.) What do you think?
I think that we might push his A times to 2hrs 15min. He's going to be six months old on Sunday, so he should be pretty much ready for it, and the more sleep he gets the more bright-eyed he still is when it's time for naps. You're right - I won't push it any further than that, though.
About hunger - it's possible, but my husband (who is still doing all of the nighttime PU/PD because he just gets hysterical when I do it) doesn't think so. His impression last night was that he was trying to get to sleep, and he wasn't really yelling loudly, just sort of crying, quieting easily when picked up, then sucking his thumb, then popping it out to cry...he wanted to be asleep but couldn't quite get there. Once he does go down, he stays down until we get him at 7. How would we know if he were hungry? That sounds stupid, but maybe we're missing something?
I'm actually less inclined to think he's undertired because he's not awake and happy at his night wakings is he - he's crying when you go into him?
Absolutely. He hasn't yet woken up giggling during the night since we've started. Nor has he woken up early from his naps happy, either - though he does when he's had a good sleep. Such a clever boy. ;D
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We could try to get him to bed at 7.30, by starting to get him down earlier. The only problem is that when we are both back at work (not until March, but still) we won't be able to do that because we'll have only just got home. We'll have to get him up at 7am in order to get him to the nursery in time, so we can't let him sleep in longer than that. (I am dreading sending him to nursery, but that's another issue, and another thread.) What do you think?
I'd say you need to do what works now. By March his routine will be totally different anyway, so there's no point arranging things now for future circumstances.
How would we know if he were hungry? That sounds stupid, but maybe we're missing something?
I guess the test would be to give a quick feed and see if that settles him back to sleep more quickly? He may not be super hungry at that time but he's definitely going be starting to get an appetite because it's been 5.5hrs since his last feed. This is all about optimising the amount of sleep everyone gets, so if a quick feed and resettle works more quickly than 1.5hrs of PUPD, that would be my suggestion (obviously within reason - I wouldn't say that if he were 9 months old or say to feed at every night waking).
I'm actually less inclined to think he's undertired because he's not awake and happy at his night wakings is he - he's crying when you go into him?
Absolutely. He hasn't yet woken up giggling during the night since we've started. Nor has he woken up early from his naps happy, either - though he does when he's had a good sleep. Such a clever boy. ;D
[/quote]
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Today:
Wake 7.00
Sleep 10.00-11.50
Wake: 11.50-2.15
Sleep: 2.15-3.45
Wake: 3.45-?
Best to have a catnap, or to move bedtime?
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I'd do a catnap, otherwise bedtime is going to be 6pm
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Thanks anna* - did just that.
Last night's wakings:
Down at 7.50pm.
Wake and did dreamfeed 15 minutes early at 10.15, then PU/PD 45 min until asleep 11.15
Wake and feed 4.15, PU/PD 10 min until asleep 4.40, when he slept until...
We got him up at 7.
Progress continues!
New questions:
He woke before the dreamfeed and we did it then because it seemed silly to do PU/PD for 15 min and then feed. But as he did before, he always wakes up during the feed, and it's quite difficult to get him back down again. Any ideas?
We fed him at 4.15 when he woke, and he went down fairly easily. Is it normal for a six-month-old to need both a dreamfeed and an early-morning feed? I don't mind doing it, but I don't want to start new habits if they aren't necessary.
:),
DualTracy
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If he's waking during the dreamfeed I would drop it, and just feed when he wakes as long as it has been at least 4 hours since his last feed.
It's normal for some to have 2 feeds through the night - 6 months is a hungry age, there is a huge growth spurt and while they've often started solids they're not yet eating the proteins and fats that really give plenty of extra calories.
You must be so pleased with your progress!
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Thank you both for this! We talked about it and decided to continue with the dreamfeed for a while - it can be tough to get him back down, but then we get a good 5-hour stretch (or more) out of him until early morning. Maybe it will improve - if not, we'll reconsider the evidence.
Tonight has started weirdly, though - after a day of perfect napping, I fed him as usual before bed (he sort of nurses to sleep, but usually wakes up a little as I put him in his cot and sucks his thumb for a minute or two). Tonight he was WIDE awake the whole time, and although he started to suck his thumb as usual, he woke up and started yelling within minutes. My husband tried to get him back down, but he was, and I quote, 'irate', and wasn't calming down at all. I finally went back in and fed him all over again, after which he dropped off with no problem - and woke again a couple of minutes later.
We think we might have accidentally overstimulated him too close to his bedtime - he was in a very giggly mood before we started to put him down - so we can fix that. Or it might be a regression, which we can deal with, too...but it's rather worrying. No idea what to expect from the night, no idea what to do about his dreamfeed. Argh!
Two steps forward, one back...any thoughts?
Apprehensively,
DualTracy
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I'd suspect overstimulation. It's easy to do when they are all giggly and cute. With my LO, we found that even reading a book could be too overstimulating close to bedtime at that age - all those bright colours - although reading to him while he was on my shoulder and not looking at the book was fine. He was hearing my voice which was soothing, but not getting excited by the pictures and colours.
Or, it could just be a blip. We all get weird bedtimes once in a while: sure they're not overtired or undertired, but it just goes 'wrong' for no reason.
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They are fun when they're so happy, aren't they? Lesson learned!
Fingers crossed, he seems to be asleep now. Am loathe to attempt the dreamfeed (and now not sure when to do it), but then again, we were really enjoying the extended sleep!
Parenting: it's not for sissies. :P
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Parenting: it's not for sissies. :P
HAH!! This is my new motto
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It's funny cause it's true!
Last night's results:
Down at 7.50pm.
Wake 8.00, PU/PD 30 min, feed again until asleep 8.40
Wake 8.50, PU/PD 2 min until asleep 8.52
Wake and feed 2.30, put down at 2.45 awake and cooing, started yelling at 3.00 PU/PD 40 min until asleep 3.40, when he slept until 6.40.
Were going to do PU/PD until 7. Decided against it.
So here's the pattern I see. The wakings have dropped to one or two a night - totally doable (I would have given a kidney for this a week ago). However, each waking is a bit of a marathon PU/PD session, which I didn't expect. Why are the wakings more infrequent, but the PU/PD sessions longer?
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OK well it's worth a check on the PUPD part. First of all, that no one is going in to him when he is whining, fussing, shouting, stop-start crying or mantra crying. Only on a genuine 'I need you RIGHT NOW!' cry. I know you might say that his mantra cry always escalates, but that doesn't matter you still have to wait until it is a really needy cry. If you're not sure if he needs you yet, he probably doesn't.
Next, that the PUPD technique is correct. At 6 months you don't hold him in your arms for more than a couple of seconds. Pick up, say key sleep phrase, lie down, try to soothe in the cot. If he's burrowing or writhing around in the cot, leave him there he is trying to settle himself. Soothe with your voice, or with a pat on the back or whatever works - it is worth experimenting with different ways to settle him in the cot. My LO for example liked to be on his tummy and we would put a hand on his butt and WIGGLE it really hard. That settled him. Or putting a hand next to his head on the mattress and pushing down so that the mattress jiggles. At 6 months, we don't want him to get calm in your arms, we want him to get calm in his cot. If he calms down in your arms, he'll just be outraged when you lie him down again.
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In case I haven't said so recently - you two are making life SO much better for my family. I wish I could meet you in person so I could tell you how marvellous you are!
Now...
First of all, that no one is going in to him when he is whining, fussing, shouting, stop-start crying or mantra crying. Only on a genuine 'I need you RIGHT NOW!' cry.
At 6 months you don't hold him in your arms for more than a couple of seconds. Pick up, say key sleep phrase, lie down, try to soothe in the cot.
At 6 months, we don't want him to get calm in your arms, we want him to get calm in his cot. If he calms down in your arms, he'll just be outraged when you lie him down again.
Oh dear. We do all of these things. On the first one, you're right, we jump the gun. Partly it's because, as you say, we know it will escalate (we've done short sharp experiments with waiting before) and partly it's because of this bloody apartment building. We'll do as you say from now on, though - the neighbours can deal with it for the next couple of weeks until we move, right?
On the second one - we do hold him too long. I think the book said no longer than two or three minutes for this age, but a couple of seconds is very short indeed. If he's almost asleep, stroking the top of his head works, but he has to be right on the edge of sleep. If he's still yelling, we don't know what to do (yet) - we always put him down on his back, and when he's upset he either screams with his eyes squeezed shut and his fists bunched, or he stares beseechingly and clutches your arm/hand (not making eye contact is really hard, but we do it).
On the third - guilty as charged (I'm worse than my husband is). Outraged is exactly the mot juste here.
Okay. So we will go fix these things. I expect our PU/PD sessions tonight will be about the same frequency (around two) but seriously lengthy - he will probably be super-angry. It all makes sense, though, so we'll do our best! At least he went down like a tonne of bricks at bedtime tonight.
Gratefully,
DualTracy
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truth is, much as we all adore Tracy and her work, there is some conflicting advice around. Starting PUPD at 4 months you would hold until calm, but at this age it definitely just prolongs matters. You could also try putting him down on his tummy and patting his butt or his back - some of them hate it, but it's worth a try, not least because if he will deign to fall asleep on his tummy, lots of times tummy sleepers sleep more soundly.
Maybe I exaggerated with the couple of seconds, but definitely not more than 30. Just long enough to say your key sleep phrase and maybe give a little kiss and a shush if he's really frantic.
Has he got a lovey - a teddy or blankie or comfort item? In the beginning you might have to physically hold his hands onto the lovey but it can be SO useful in teaching them to settle themselves. A word of advice though, whatever you choose for his lovey make sure you have several identical items. I think that mums who give muslin cloths for loveys are genius (which I had done that).
You guys are doing so well. Let your success so far give you strength for tonight. And you're right about the neighbours - babies cry. *shrug* deal with it.
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Funnily enough, a neighbour just woke him up by hammering on the wall (I think they're hanging something up - I'd be annoyed, but it's not exactly late at night, is it? *sigh*) and we were good bunnies and waited until he did a 'need you RIGHT NOW' cry. Wow. It's a stunner. And it makes my stomach hurt to hear it - I'm sure everyone else here feels the same. Husband is trying to calm him, but he's pretty frantic. Will let you know how it goes.
In the meantime, he has a bunny that he sucks on like a dummy when he's in his pram or a carseat, so maybe that would work (and we have two of them!) Otherwise, a muslin would probably work - he's been attached to them since he was only a couple of weeks old. We even sing a song about him and his muslin to him. :D
He has quite a head of steam. Am going to sit tight while husband does his best. Wow, this is hard. :'(
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Wow. It's a stunner. And it makes my stomach hurt to hear it - I'm sure everyone else here feels the same.
Yep, that's the one. ((((hugs)))) such a pain in the bee-hind when neighbours wake a sleeping baby.
The muslin is definitely a good idea, it will give him somewhere to focus his efforts to calm down. Tuck one between you and him during feeds, and encourage him to play with it. Hold his hands on to it while you're trying to settle him in his cot during PUPD. It really is a healthy and desirable thing for a little one to have a comfort item, and they are worth their weight in gold for self soothing, and also down the line when he's teething, sick, separation anxiety, travelling... they're a real good friend.
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Okay, he's still screaming at the top of his lungs. Husband tried, I finally went in and fed him, he ate and then started screaming again as soon as he finished, I kept trying to get him down, husband is now back in trying. I have no idea what's going on. It's been over an hour now with no end in sight.
I tried even doing PU/PD the way we've been doing it - no dice. Is this the start of the regression?
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Stay with it, try to stay calm, he will sleep. They often get FURIOUS when they're woken up abruptly like that, and then because they're crying when they should be sleeping there's OT hard-to-settleness in there too. He's just gotten himself into a big mess. Don't worry, don't panic. It's an exceptional circumstance and we don't need to read too much into it - all you and DH have to do for now is stay as consistent as you can and get through this.
:-*
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Yes, I think you're right, but oh my god, he's just not calming down at all, not even a little bit. I hate living in this stupid building. =( I'm sorry, I'll stop bothering you - I'm just worried because this is going to go past two hours and he's going to be all OT again and he had a half-hour nap today for reasons that are best known to himself - I don't know why, as everything was going perfectly well.
I'd better go spell my poor husband. Cross your fingers!
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If he's anything like my LO he won't calm down even a little bit but will suddenly conk out and get off to sleep very quickly. Literally like a switch being flipped.
((((hugs)))) to you both and I hope you have a peaceful rest of the night.
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Amazing husband got Corey down at 11.25. That's over two hours of world-class screaming.
He'll either stay down for hours or wake up in about 15 minutes - no idea what to expect now. Should we let him sleep in in the morning? Horrifyingly, the double-glazing people will be here tomorrow to do our windows. So on top of tonight, add in construction work, no windows (so below freezing inside - this is a very small flat), and solvents that will singe an adult's nose-hairs.
It was all going so well!!!!!
(Modifying to add: thank you both so much for your support tonight. You must be sleepy too!) :-* :-* :-*
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((((hugs)))) for last night. What a great DH you have, mine would never have the patience. I really hope you had an OK night. What a pain for the window people there today. I'd be inclined to bundle up warm and head out, let him nap in his pram. Hopefully you might get a break from the noise over the weekend?
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Hello lovely people,
So he woke up again at 12.30, flipping out, and we just decided that he needed sleep more than he needed sleep training and took him to bed with us. I know, I know - but the window people are here today, all day. We're going down to another flat for the day (the man living there is wonderful - gave us his key and told us to stay there) and though it will be insanely noisy - he's only downstairs - at least it won't be here. We're going to ask them not to use the solvent in at least one room - if it's his, great, if it's ours, guess where he'll sleep tonight? At this point I'm just hoping that we won't be gassed by fumes and that the radiators can get the indoor temperatures back up to a level that won't freeze our eyeballs once the windows are in.
The poor kid is trying to get some sleep - he just got woken up after a 35 min nap by sledgehammers. Literally. I wish we had family nearby but we don't, and we can't go to a hotel. He doesn't reliably sleep in his pram (and it's far too icy for us to get out - no car either), so I think we're just going to have to get through today however we can and hope that the weekend is better. Not sure if they'll finish our block today, but all my fingers are crossed that they do, so we can have relatively smooth sailing again starting tomorrow.
Gah! Control freaks like me do not do well when things spin out like this.
(And yeah, the husband is pretty amazing - far better than I am at most of this stuff!)
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I think you did the right thing. All the hard work yo'uve done will be a great foundation when you start sleep training again AFTER the windows and the solvents and the sledgehammers.
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Just wanted to update you...
After the sledgehammer/nap fiasco, we went to the other flat while the windows were installed. Lo and behold, our amazing kid managed a 1 1/2 hour nap in a strange bedroom in the middle of a bed (we kept checking to make sure he hadn't decided to practise his rolling), which only ended when the workmen knocked on the door to say they were finished. The windows are in, the flat is fume-free, and the heat is back to normal. Roll on the weekend!
Corey had a one-hour catnap and went down fine at the normal time, but has woken up at 9.45 angry (husband, the saint, is practising his expert PU/PD, but it doesn't seem to be having an effect yet). We can't seem to shake this weird waking, and he's just getting more and more frustrated. It's not yet regular enough to try wake-to-sleep - we just know it'll happen between 9 and 11.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's overtired again, given the freakish last 24 hours, but this seems to be a developing pattern, even when he's had lots of sleep. What do you think?
I hope you and yours are well. Husband and I are continually amazed and thankful for your patience and your advice!
Tiredly,
DualTracy
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Wow that is a great day! Overtiredness will always make wakings first, so that is the first thing to rule out - fingers crossed that you can get a couple of good days over the weekend. What about teething? It can definitely get them worse at night than it does in the daytime - would you consider giving Calpol at bedtime to see if it helps?
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Just wondering too if he's having a nice full feed before bed?
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First, the rundown:
Down at 7.50pm.
Wake 9.45, PU/PD 60 min
Feed 10.45, PU/PD 11.00 until asleep just after 12.00,
Wake and feed 4.10, down at 4.25, when he slept until...
He got up at 7 exactly!
So, yeah. That first part of the night is crazy. We were wondering if it was teething as well, but how can you tell? I don't feel anything on his gums, but he was doing two things: he spent those two+ hours trying to suck on his thumb and put himself down, then pulling it out again and crying, then putting it back in...etc. And when I picked him up, he was frantically trying to suck on my face - cheek, chin, whatever. He does that sometimes when he's playing, and he thinks it's fun, but he wasn't playing, and he wasn't happy. Not sure if it's because he wanted to chew or because he was upset and was trying to get my attention! He didn't (and doesn't ever) do it with my husband.
We gave him Calpol at 10.45 and then I fed him to wash it down, and although he didn't go down then, he did, once he went down around midnight, only wake once after that. We'll definitely give the Calpol to him before his bath tonight.
I'm pretty sure it isn't hunger, because he doesn't calm down when he's fed (and he doesn't get hungry after two hours, really).
Other than that, we're at a loss. It's the first time the husband has been frustrated to the point of giving up, and we're both knackered. What is WITH this two hour interlude of crazy? We now know that he won't sleep longer than a couple of hours at the start of the night, and that he'll be insanely difficult to put down.
Frustratedly,
DualTracy
P.S. Is it just me, or does this board crash a lot?
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I hope the Calpol helps. I really think an earlier bedtime would be a good idea too because he's actually only sleeping less than 10 hrs at night which is a pretty good indicator of OT.
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Okay. I have to say, if he wasn't OT before, he is now - one 45 min nap, one 2 hr nap (with a ten minute PU/PD interval), and one 8 minute catnap. Yes. So we're putting him down as soon as we can.
OT seems like a vicious circle. How do we get him rested up so we can start over?
(Just given him Calpol - he's making lots of chewy motions and hopefully it'll help him sleep.)
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OT is a monster (as a brief scan around any of the sleep boards will show). He did take a 2hour nap today so that will have been restorative. In general, all you can do is keep plugging away at it, cutting back A times, until they're caught up. If things get desperate, then you resort to Accidental Parenting to get them to sleep any way you can until they're caught up, then work to get back on track. Really hope the Calpol helps tonight, keep us posted.
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Thanks again, you must be hoping I get a severe case of RSI and leave you in peace!
He went to sleep at 6.55 tonight, and is still down, so we'll keep our fingers crossed. I expect he'll wake sometime in the next hour or so, but maybe the Calpol will solve that? Who knows.
If it gets too bad we'll do as you say (and as I was thinking) and just take him to bed to get a good solid decent night's sleep, and then see where we are. Last night I finally got him to sleep by leaning all the way over the cot and resting my face against his, with my hand on the back of his head. It seemed to work, and I didn't pick him up - we'll see what tonight brings.
Have a good night, and thanks again for everything.
Hopefully,
DualTracy
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I'd be inclined to agree with Jane. And it doesn't sound like Corey is terribly OT at this point, just a bit. AND, if you're going to AP I would suggest doing something different to the prop you're trying to break - so if you're trying to get rid of rocking to sleep, don't rock to sleep to get over OT.
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That makes sense, but I don't even know how to AP naps! Any ideas? He doesn't sleep in his pram, we don't have a car...how do you cheat with naps? (Sorry if this is a daft question.)
He woke up at 8.25, got back down at 9.15. Let's hope it sticks!!
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Rocking? Sleeping on you? Fingers crossed for a restful night and sending patience to you and DH
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I think this was a regression...
Down at 6.55pm.
Wake 8.25, PU/PD 50 min until asleep at 9.15
Wake 11.05, PU/PD 20 min until asleep at 11.25
Feed 12.20, asleep 12.35, wake 12.40, PU/PD at 1.00 for 15 min until asleep at 1.15
Wake 2.40, PU/PD 20 min until asleep at 3.00
Feed 4.10, asleep at 4.25
Wake around 7.30.
We're exhausted - lovely husband sent me back to bed after I fed him for a little extra nap.
But husband (I should just call him John, really) pointed out that although he woke loads of times, it was pretty easy to get him back down. He also woke a couple of times and whimpered, but put himself back to sleep, which we didn't include here. Most of the PU/PD was actually just holding him while he was lying on the mattress, so very little actual picking up took place.
So on one hand, that's a LOT of waking up. On the other, it was easier to get him down, and sometimes he did it himself.
Variables: earlier bedtime (good call, anna*), Calpol. (He woke up this morning very happy, but still making lots of chewing motions, as if he were chewing gum. I think things are moving around in there, though we can't feel anything.)
What do you think?
Pie-eyed-ly (is that a term? Is now),
DualTracy
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Is John holding Corey (in his cot) right until he's asleep?
It's fantastic that he settled himself a bunch of times.
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John says he's almost asleep - he gradually removes his hands until he's not holding him anymore, at which point he's still sucking his thumb but is close to sleep.
(He says he's trying to keep it to a minimum.)
Today's naps - first nap was 1 hr 10 min, 5 min to calm him down when he woke up, then asleep 40 more min. He's in his second nap now, just getting past the 45 min mark.
Do you think it means anything that he was waking so often again?
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I was just wondering if the settling to sleep was becoming a bit of a prop, if he's feeling like he falls asleep in daddy's arms and then wonders where daddy is when he wakes again. We're sure he's not mantra crying before the PUPD yes?
I would try to stop comforting Corey beyond calmness. Once he is quiet, try to remove physical contact. We want to only give as much comfort as is totally necessary, so if he's quiet, or even quieting down, try to leave him to it to get to 'calm and drowsy' by himself. If he starts to cry again you can always step back to the cot and give some more reassurance, or just reassure with the voice. Remember that the aim is to have him fall asleep with nobody else in the room, and that's the goal you need to be working for at every PUPD session.
I'm heartened that he's settling more quickly at his wakings, but not sure why he's still waking so frequently. Jane what do you think?
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Thanks to both of you. John agrees, and has been moving in that direction already, which may be why Corey's starting to be able to settle himself sometimes. I'm still a little thrown by the frequency of the wakings, but...we don't know what's causing them, so I guess we'll just concentrate on getting him back to sleep asap.
His naps are a little weird - he used to be the king of naps (I had to wake him from almost every nap), but in the last couple of months they've dropped. Today he woke after an hour from his second nap, and became increasingly frantic when we tried to get him back down. I'm thinking that if he doesn't go back down fairly quickly, he just isn't going to, and I'm not sure there's a lot of benefit in making him hysterical. Anyway, the catnap turned into an accidental parenting thing in order to get him enough daytime sleep to deal with tonight - he napped on my bed with me for an hour, 4.30-5.30, and he just went down for bed at 7.30.
We both are placing bets that tonight he wakes up four times. We're going to do a dreamfeed at 10.30 and see what happens, now that John's feeling more confident of getting him back to sleep.
(Meanwhile, my sister's one month old baby already sleeps through the night. I'm trying not to think about it!)
Apprehensively,
DualTracy
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That's true - it isn't 12 hours! I feel better now. :)
Right I see form your tracker Corey is 6 months today So we now need to start looking at extending A time and dropping the CN
He is! We celebrated with, er, carrot puree. Which he adored. ;D
And we were thinking the same thing - especially for the second nap, when two hours just doesn't seem like enough to get him very tired (and I realise I say that when I know he's been chronically overtired...argh). Today was a little weird, but here is the EASY we've been working to:
Wake up 7.00
E: 7-7.30 (BM)
A: 7.30-9
S: 9-10.30 or 11
E: 11-11.30 (BM), 11.30 solids
A: 11-1.00
S: 1-2.30 or 3
E: 3-3.30
A: 3.30-5
S (catnap): 5-5.45
E: 5.45-6
A: 6-6.30
6.30 bath, lullabies and cuddles, feed and sleep between 7 and 7.30
Obviously this is if everything goes swimmingly. Today he woke at 7.30 (we were so exhausted that we slept through the alarm), his second nap was only 45 min, his catnap was an hour (4.30-5.30), he went to sleep at 7.30. So it was a little off. We kept his eat times constant, though.
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Last night:
Down at 7.30.
Wake at 10.15 (we think he was accidentally woken up, but anyway), mantra cry for 15 min, feed at 10.30, asleep at 10.45
Wake 12.50, PU/PD 10 min until asleep at 1.00
Wake and feed 4.10, asleep 4.25 (with some mantra crying for the next ten min or so)
Wake at 7.
Much better. John says that when he did the PU/PD, he only picked him up once, and then calmed him in the cot.
I wish I knew what was working at what wasn't. It's all so random!
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That was a much better night! Only one PUPD session!
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Oh, it was much better, in case I sounded grudging! We're both really pleased, it's just that we don't know why some nights are good, some bad. It's hard to feel like progress is being made when you never know what the next night will bring!
We are making his A times 2hrs 15 min. We'd kind of been doing this for the past few days, but now it's set in stone. We put him down for his nap at 9.15 with his bunny (hopefully he'll start to look for it when it's not there) and watched him playing with it on the monitor for about 10 min and blowing raspberries before he fell asleep. :)
One thing - during the mantra crying bit at 10.30 last night - when we did finally go in, his face was wet with tears. This is probably a stupid question, but does that mean it wasn't mantra crying? We were both a little devastated. :'( He was definitely not ratcheting up until right before we went in, but at what point does mantra crying become crying it out?
(Also, today we begin phasing out his daytime breastfeeding - his second feed (the one after his first nap) will now be formula. Should be fine, but just thought I'd note it.) (It's because I go back to work next month. Otherwise I wouldn't do it. :()
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Hello again!
It's been a while - I thought I'd update you, plus we have a new development I thought I check with you.
With your help, and heroic deeds by my husband, Corey has been sleeping through the night! Not every night, mind you, but three of the last five - and by 'sleeping through the night', I mean going down at 7, dreamfeed at 10.30, and awake at 7. It is a miracle, and we couldn't have done it without you (and a lot of coffee in the morning).
Yesterday and today we have a new blip, and I'm anxious to nip it in the bud before it overwhelms us. Corey woke up last night minutes before his dreamfeed, and then another two times during the night - and I mean woke up screaming. We were both taken by surprise, as it's been a while since it's taken longer than about 5 minutes to get him back down again. We suspected teething and gave him Calpol and Bonjela, but I don't know if it worked (he adores Calpol, but screamed bloody murder with the Bonjela). Tonight he woke at 10.00, and it took about 35 minutes to get him back down (we haven't done his dreamfeed yet). I'm getting flashbacks from the bad old days of wakeups straight after going down for the night, but I have no idea why it's happening.
Some factoids:
- His naps have gone from three to two with almost no hiccups - he sleeps a total of 3-4 hours during the day. Nothing's gone weird with them, except that he's a bit more restless: he wakes up and resettles himself once or twice per nap now, rather than sleeping straight through.
- He's on solids three times a day now - he loves them. I think he'd eat mud if I gave it to him. We wonder if it's affecting his sleep at all.
- We lowered his cot mattress to the middle level on Sunday because he seemed to be trying to escape - he can't sit up on his own yet, but he was hooking his arm over it and trying to fling himself over.
Any thoughts? I want to fix it before it turns into a new habit!
Thanks for everything, again - you are such a great help.
Worriedly,
DualTracy
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3 meals a day is a lot for someone so little, I would scale back to just breakfast and lunch and see if that helps. I'd also try giving Calpol before bedtime, to see if that helps. What is his routine like now?
good to see you again.
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Hi anna* - good to see you too! ;D
We were wondering the same thing about the frequency of the solids - we're using Annabel Karmel's book/menu planner, but she seems to move at an awfully fast clip. We've done as you suggested and cut the evening solid (each 'meal' is just a little baby portion of pear, carrot etc thinned with water). We also added 1 oz to each of his two bottles because I'm not confident about how much he's getting during his morning and evening breastfeeds.
As for the Calpol, we gave him some last night, and it didn't seem to make a difference - although we think he's hoping that one day his lunch will be a whole serving of Calpol! It doesn't hurt, though, so whenever he seems to be teething we're happy to give it to him. He seemed to be over it tonight, so he hasn't had any - though it's always at the ready.
His routine is rock solid now:
Wake/E/A (breastfeed) 7.00, solid 7.30
S 9.30
E/A (formula) 11.30, solid 1.15
S 2.15
E/A (bottle) 4.15
6.30 bath, asleep at 7
Dreamfeed 10.30
His naps are around 1 1/2 hours each now - we think they're shortening a bit because he's getting so much sleep at night that 4 hours is too much during the day. They vary between 1 1/4-2 hours each.
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Well it sounds like you guys are doing just great!! So well done! When he wakes in the night, what happens? How does he get settled back to sleep? Your routine looks great, I'm not sure what to suggest except that there is a pretty well documented sleep regression at 6 months old (yes, they come thick and fast). It's tied in with a cognitive development growth spurt. It feels like a cop out to say it but I would try to stay calm, stay consistent, act like nothing out of the ordinary is happening... and reassess in 3-4 days if things aren't getting any better.
:/ I feel bad that I can't say anything more constructive!
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So, two nights ago he woke at 10.30 (just before we went in to do the dream feed). Last night it was 10.00, and took 35 min to get him down (but then he slept through the rest of the night). Tonight he's just now woken up at 9.00 (John just came back in - took 10 min to get him back down).
I KNOW he's not overtired, not with all the good sleep he's getting. We're trying not to panic, but I think we have a bit of post-traumatic stress disorder left over from the previous couple of months!
there is a pretty well documented sleep regression at 6 months old (yes, they come thick and fast). It's tied in with a cognitive development growth spurt. It feels like a cop out to say it but I would try to stay calm, stay consistent, act like nothing out of the ordinary is happening... and reassess in 3-4 days if things aren't getting any better.
Okay, good to know. He is clearly the textbook boy for these things - his four month regression was the start of this whole thread! Luckily he now seems to get that he should be asleep at night.
Until last night, it hasn't taken more than about five minutes to get him back down for a couple of weeks now. He generally puts himself back down, and if he can't, John picks him up, puts him more or less straight down, just the once, and places a hand on him - and that's it. He's got his thumb in his mouth and is able to take it from there.
So what does this sleep regression look like, and how long does it typically last? Will the training we've been doing regress all the way back?
I feel bad that I can't say anything more constructive!
This is HUGELY constructive - thanks so much (again)!! :-*
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You DEFINITELY won't go back to square one. These developmental spurts (motor or cognitive), growth spurts, teething, illnesses - they all set us back, but all the work you've done up to now is like a foundation which stops the whole thing collapsing. If it's a growth spurt type thing it shouldn't last more than about a week.
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Genius. Thanks so much - I won't bother you again unless things really hit the fan!