BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: Flossie's Mum on January 23, 2010, 19:21:59 pm
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I have had sonme amazing help so far from the naps and pu/pd boards, but thought I'd post this here as my 7mo dd's NWs are now becoming a nightmare and taking priority, although the naps aren't completely sorted yet either. Last night she woke over 20 times, and being a little OT from poor naps yesterday surely contributed but even on a good night her longest sleep stretch is one period of 3.5 - 4.5 hours from the df to somewhere between 1 and 3am.
When she wakes up, she becomes wide awake very quickly and almost never settles herself (the same is true for naps), and sometimes she starts screaming, but often she behaves as if she's not tired, playing with the bars of the cot/lovey and fighting me if I try to roll her onto her side (she always sleeps on her side). I've done some pu/pd but (although admittedly I haven't persevered for long) it didn't work at sending her back to sleep because she wasn't crying much so I wasn't really sure when to do the pu part! She only gets about 10 - 12 hours sleep every 24 hours, including naps and if I get her up when she's like this she starts to yawn, rub her eyes, etc so she is tired and needs more sleep, I just have to convince her of that!
I used to sh-pat her when she was younger but it seems to irritate her now as often as not, although it sometimes works ... but when it doesn't work, has anyone got any ideas just how to send her back off to sleep, apart from apop? She isn't teething or suffering from reflux or anything like that, she just seems to act as if she's refreshed from the little sleep she's had and wants to get up. She's never had a dummy/paci and she's breastfed and v small for her age, so I still feed her at 3.00am, which is probably what she's waking up for around that time, although she tries to doze off on the breast when she's finished feeding. After that she usually wakes up every 10 - 30 minutes until its time to get up around 6.45am.
Any suggestions gratefully received!
Louise
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Hi, our routine looks like this at the mo, at least it does when if the naps are going well (1hr15m is the best I can get by a long way and she's only done 2 naps like that in one day once, usually its one bad nap and one good one). She's only been having solid food for about a month and so she still has the same number of bfs as always, although they are getting shorter as she's getting more food into her tummy
6.45am A
7.00 E (bf)
8.00 E (solids)
9.45 S
11.00 E (bf)
11.30 A
12.15 E (solids)
12.45 A
1.45/2.00 S
3.00 E (bf)
3.30 - 4.15 A
4.15 E (solids)
4.45 A
5.15 E (bf)
5.45 A (bath and bedtime wind down)
6.15 S
I've recently increased the A time to about 3 hours (she is 7 months and 1 week old) as she dropped the cn about a month ago and was ut, at least in the morning. However when her naps are bad like today, when she slept for only 35 mins each time, I offer a cn still and she takes it about 50% of the time. Today she took it at 4.15 so her A times were 3 hours, 2hrs 50m, then 2hrs and 2hrs
I've also changed her bedtime around a bit and its around 6.15 now (if there's no cn) which is to make sure her last A time isn't so long that she becomes ot. As it is, if she finishes her pm nap at 3.00 her A time is 3h15m which still seems long to me, but even earlier seems too early. As it is, she has usually woken at least twice before her 10.00 df (tried making it later and earlier and it doens't make a difference). She usually goes off to sleep easily at bedtime and after her df, but then wakes fairly regularly/predictably around 2.00am (sometimes 12.00 and 1.00am too), then at 3.00 when she's bf and after that she wakes more and more frequently until from 5.00 or 5.30 its every 10 - 20 mins until we get up at 6.45. After her 3.00 feed she can take anything up to 90 mins to settle, although in the last couple of weeks this is happening less often, so hopefully its becoming a thing of the past!
Does the nature of the A time make a difference to whether they're ot or ut at all? Sometimes its just me and her at home doing housework and playing together but sometimes we have visits to friends houses with their noisy busy children running around. I always go by her signs rather than the clock when it comes to naps but then as her bedtime varies and she sometimes has a cn, I worry that it will confuse her bodyclock.
One last question, she's always slept on her side, from the days of sh-pat when it made that easier, and I daren't change it now in case it is too much of a change in her routine and prevents her sleeping, but it can't be too comfy laying on one side for hours, so maybe its affecting her, do you think? Or would she just roll over if it bothered her? Once or twice I've seen her asleep on her back, so she must have rolled over in her sleep, but yet when she wakes up (night or day) she is always on her back, so I wonder if rolling wakes her sometimes.
Gosh, what a long post, sorry! Thanks for your help
Louise
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Most naps are 35 mins, or on a good day they are 1hr 10mins (I guess 2 sleep cycles instead of one)
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OK, I'll try those A times tomorrow. She's goes off to sleep really well by herself (thanks to BW - she used to be breastfed for all sleeps before I discovered this!), but just can't seem to resettle herself very well and doesn't seem that happy for me to resettle her either! She's not teething, although I think she is coming down with a cold as she's been coughing today and I can feel one coming on myself, which would be her first ever illness. If she has a tickly throat, should I bend the rules and bf her in the night? Or is that a bad habit to start? She doesn't like water so far, although only tried it once (and shuddered!)
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Hi again,
here’s my update from today: we had 3 hrs A time as usual after getting up, followed by a 35 min nap, which I was able to extend to 1 hour with alot of intervention (although usually no amount of intervention makes any difference). After that I put her down again after 2 hours A time and exactly the same thing happened, and again I managed to extend the nap to 1 hour but couldn’t extend it any more after her second waking. So as her 2nd nap finished at 2.30 we had a catnap at 4.15 and bedtime was 7.00pm rather than 6.30. I have a bit of a dilemma with intervening when she wakes at night or during naps as I’ve learned (esp with naps) that if I don’t get to her very very quickly, she wakes up fully, becomes hysterical and is impossible to get back to sleep. But I know I need to wait and see if she settles herself whenever I hear her stirring, and should give her chance to get herself back to sleep before going in. These two approaches seem to be mutually exclusive and I’m not sure I’m doing it right – I currently wait outside the room for 20 seconds or so when I hear her making noises, and this usually means I wait too long to get her back off to sleep easily.
Anyway, last night was a bit mixed – she has a cold and I’m trying SO hard not to resort to apop, but she’s finding it hard to breathe and keeps waking up coughing too. She woke up a few times before the df then settled quite easily after it and slept for a few hours solidly (must have been the tixylix!) But she woke at 3am and barely slept for more than 20 mins at a time after that and was wide awake and very difficult to settle, taking me over an hour of intervening at one point to get 20 mins of sleep. I never made it back to bed myself after 4.00. This is quite typical and I’m very familiar with the sound of the milkman/birds/dustbin men!
Do you know any other way to get her to return to sleep when she’s tired but awake? She thinks she’s had enough sleep and lays there playing with her teddy/the cot/sucking my finger but cries if I leave. She yawns and wakes up grumpy, but doesn’t actually seem sleepy in the way she does before her naps/bedtime, when she goes quiet and still and rests her head on me or something else.
I feel like I’ve tried everything ... is it possible she’s just like this (i.e. a ‘bad sleeper’) and will never improve no matter what I do, at least not until she’s a couple of years older?
Sorry this seems to be a nap related problem too – I’ve had loads of fantastic help and support on the naps board and they must be sick of me, but do tell me if you think its more appropriate for me to move across there.
Louise
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Wow, I didn't know that about the naps and night time sleep and different parts of the brain - it explains such alot! I do try to 'blend' her back to sleep when she wakes during naps but at least half the time it doesn't work nowadays (sh-pat worked a treat shen she was younger) and I end up staying in there while she screams for half an hour, then give up and go downstairs. I've tried httj and w2s without success, so is there any other thing or intervention I could try, other than pu/pd? Or is that my next course of action really? If I keep on with the reduced A time when she has a short am nap, will she eventually start napping for longer without intervention? Bringing the catnaps back when she has two short naps seems like a step backwards at 7 months, but I have to give her one to stop her pm A time being 4 hours long.
Louise
PS Thanks for that advice about elevating the cot mattress, I'll try that tonight, she sounded like a 60 a day smoker all night last night, although she didn't sleep too badly in the sense that there was no more EWs after her feed at 3.00am until 6.30
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She seems to be over the worst of her cold now, but her naps have got worse! She did 3 hours A time this morning, then a 35 min nap that I couldn't extend, followed by 2 hours A time and a 25 min nap that I eventually extended (resorting to rocking) to 45 mins but then couldn't extend it further. Right now she's having a cn, but I had difficulty getting her down for all 3 naps, even though I usually just put her grobag on then pop her in the cot awake with no problems.
Last night she had alot of wakings too, and woke every 40 mins from 3.30 onwards until we got up. Is there anything else I can try to extend naps, or should I just persevere with this new routine with the shortened second A time before I can see any changes?
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Thanks for persevering with us! Last night was soooo bad - she finished her df at 10.45 then woke at 12.00 and from then on every 40ish minutes after that, so I got 1hr 15mins sleep from 10.45 - 12.00 and only managed a few dozes after that. When she wakes in the night sometimes its easy to soothe her back to sleep but sometimes she's so wide awake and grumpy, nothing will work, and this is how she wakes from naps.
Anyway, tried a shorter A time of 2h45m this morning and she woke after 35mins, wide awake, fighting me turning her over, bashing things in her cot (and me), so I took her out and rocked her - haven't done this in MONTHS since I started bw, but she went instantly to sleep on my shoulder so she must have been dead tired. She's been asleep 50 mins so far. Is the NW and short naps because she is OT from the night during the day and OT from the day during the night? Or is it habit? Am I on the wrong board really if the naps need to be sorted first?
Oh, and one more thing, for the first time ever, when she took her cn yesterday I had to wake her up after 45 mins, so bedtime ended up being moved back to 7pm. Could it be confusing her body clock to have naps and bedtimes at differing times?
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quick update - after the apop intervention she napped for a total of 1hr 30 mins - the longest ever since she was a newborn! Only got 40 mins pm nap though, she couldn't have been OT, so I don't undrestand why....
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Thanks, I'm going to try a longer A time today for her pm nap if she has a good am nap. Had a bad night again last night, though, despite getting a total of 2.5 hours naps yesterday. She woke 3 times before the df then again every hour after that pretty much on the dot. Her bedtime was 6.30 last night and there was no cn, do you think it could be confusing her body clock to have naps and bedtimes at differing times?
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Hi Louise! Just chiming in with some Nap POV :) It sounds like you're having a rough, rough time. *hugs* hon...let's see if our 3 heads together can figure out these naps, the NWs, or both!
It kind of sounds like she's still having problems getting through the sleep cycle transition. This is developmental at its root, but if she wakes up and she's used to you trying to settle her back down, then it could be a prop issue, too. Hard to tell at this point, though. She just constantly seems to hit that 35min point and BAM! awake, regardless of A time...which is why I think it might still be the transition issue. But I think we've got a LO in a serious OT cycle, so it's hard to tell because OT naps are generally 35 minutes long.
If you don't mind...could you refresh my memory of how long you tried w2s and httj to extend her naps? I noticed that she took a long nap after APOP. When dealing with an OT cycle (meaning OT continuously disrupts both day and night sleep, versus OT which is more fleeting), I do recommend APOP for a couple of days so that LO gets some good sleep in...it kind of levels the playing field and gives us a clean slate, so to speak. I know you might be afraid to do that because you started using BW due to a feed-to-sleep association (I recommend the rocking in your situation as it seems she likes that). But, at some point, LO just needs some sleep. Furthermore, if it makes you feel any better, when DS has a cold (he's had 3), we've always done APOP to help him sleep better. Then, we gradually reduce that until he's doing his independent sleeping again. Don't feel guilty if you have to hold her elevated (or elevate her mattress, which really isn't APOP) for a night so that she can breathe and sleep...we've all done APOP at one point or another. :-*
Re: holding back when she wakes up...I think after some APOP, it's worth it to hold back more and more until she reaches the "I need you!!" cry. If she short naps because she can't resettle on her own, then we can deal with that; but it's worth it, I think, to at least fully give her the chance to self-settle.
Fwiw, the NWs seem to be OT and maybe a bit of hunger driven, too, if she's not settling for longer than 40 minutes at night. It may be that she's been up so long that she realizes that she's starting to feel a bit hungry and then can't resettle. Have you tried just giving her a teensy bit to eat so that she feels a bit better, but not enough to throw off her appetite? We did that the other night during DS's cold/cough. Gave him a couple oz of water at 5 am, and he was good to go--didn't throw off his AM bottle at all (which I was totally surprised about).
Another thing running through my head--related to feeding--is I wonder if the solids are bothering her.
Lastly, I don't think you're messing with her internal clock when naps occur at different times during the day. EASY isn't a schedule anyways, so there's supposed to be variations. It's the overall EAS pattern that LOs thrive on...so rest assured there, hon.
Will wait to see what her day looked like for either today or yesterday; and we'll go from there *hugs*
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Thanks so much both of you, had a bad night again last night (3 particularly bad ones in a row, although thats when she's had a cold so probably not a coincedence) when she woke at 1.45am and just wouldn't resettle at all, even with rocking, and then, when she was still awake at 2.45, feeding (she normally has a feed around 3am). She was just wide awake, playing with my hair when I geld her, making babbling noises, looking around the room (even though its pitch black), and eventually fell asleep around 4.00 and stayed there until 5.30, then I resettled her quite easily until 6.45 when we got up.
Anyway, thanks for making me feel better about the apop, I'm terrified of her losing the independent skills we've worked so hard for her to develop, but its good to know they can easily go back to them. Yesterday's routine was like this, and as you can see, she slept for 1 hour for each nap - miles longer than her usual 35 mins, but I couldn't extend either of them
A 6.45am
E 7.00am (bf)
A 7.30
E 8.00 (solids - she usually eats loads at breakfast and had lots of helpings of cereal with formula milk on. She is bf for all milk except this and the df, which is formula too. Heartbreakingly, she LOVES formula and if she even sees a bottle, lunges for it and makes excited noises! Her bf has reduced in duration, though not number of feeds, since she's been on solids, which is a about 5 weeks and she's still trying new foods all the time so how she'll react to them is a bit unpredictable, although apart from bananas she doesn't seem to have had any problems digesting anything so far)
A 9.15
S 9.30 (normally has 3 hours A time but tried a shorter one yesterday)
A 10.30
E 11.00 (bf)
A 11.30
E 12.15 (solids, this is her main meal of the day to avoid night time wind/gassiness!)
A 12.45
S 1.30
A 2.30
E 3.30 (bf)
A 4.00
E 4.45 (solids)
E 5.15 (bf)
A 5.45 bath and wind down for bed
S 6.15
after that she woke up twice before her 10.00pm df but was realtively easy to settle back to sleep. She slept for exactly 2 hours before the first waking, which is quite typical.
Hope you can make some sense of it! Thanks again
Louise
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Sorry, forgot to say about other things I've tried
httj - worked once only (the first time), I tried it for about 4 days for every nap and then gave up, although when I'm settling her after she wakes during the night, to make sure she stays alseep after I walk away, I tend to sit with her for 10 mins to httj then
w2s - couldn't get this to work, although I only tried it for a few days as she often spotted me then become even more awake. I was sucessful a few times in the sense that she stayed asleep but gave a shuffle and so seemed to be reacting to my touch, however she still woke up at the 35 mion mark just the same
sh-pat - this worked when she was younger but seems less effective now, however its all I feel I have at my disposal to try to sooth her back to sleep when she wakes so I tend to do a variation of it (sometimes with soft talking instead of shing, or back rubbing instead of patting), but she fights me most of the time, thrashing around, sometimes yelping, bashing my head, etc. She sleeps opn her side so I've tried moving her back to her side and doing this, I've tried doing it with her on her back, I've tried stepping back, within her line of sight and away from it when she starts to fight me to see if she settles heself (she doesn't, she just gets more hysterical)
Are there any other interventions, other than apop and pu/pd?
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Hmmm, I'm wondering if we need to get a bit firmer on letting her resettle herself. I have a strict rule for DH and I during the night: we do not go in to DS unless he is crying his "I need you cry!!" We let him babble, coo, talk, mantra cry, fuss all by his lonesome for as long as he wants, but we do not go in. I'm wondering if your LO is just needing that last little push to be an independent sleeper. Now, I think OT is still playing a role in all of this. But at night, I wonder what would happen if you stopped going in to her and just hung back and waited. She might have a few rough nights, but I think that will help rule out any prop possibilities.
Have you thought about getting rid of the DF? She's on 3 good meals a day, and I wonder if maybe it's just disrupting her sleep and she's just now in a habit of waking for it. Tracy did say that many LOs are ready to drop it at ~7 months. Your LO probably isn't waking up for it because she's hungry, so I wonder if we try to get rid of it, it might help her sleep longer for that first chunk of night sleep (which is the deep sleep phase--very restorative sleep).
What do you think about that? Also, do you think she is really hungry for that 3 am feed? Do you think it might be time to drop all night feeds?
I know you said you've tried w2s...have you tried it at night? Or, when she wakes up before 10, just resettle like you have been and let her go. Just something to consider.
Are there any other interventions, other than apop and pu/pd?
If she isn't really crying and needing you, then I think the best thing for her is for you to hang back and leave her to it (resettling herself). It's a learning process...doesn't mean that there won't be tears or crying. But when she gets to the point where she really needs your comfort, you will be there and can lay a hand on her and reassure her. You can try PU/PD or shh/pat then (maybe modify it to just patting or just shushing...see if she likes it modified). A note about PU/PD: it's not a calming tool like shh/pat; it's a sleep training tool.
Okay!! Do you think we could try those things for her nights for a little while before tackling her naps more? I know the issues are related, but I wonder if we could get a foothold by working on nights first as that will set up her days better.
What do you think, Jane? Does this sound like a reasonable approach or would you suggest something different?
*hugs* I hope YOU are doing okay, hon.
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Thanks for this, we had yet another backwards night again last night where she was really wide awake at 2 and wouldn't settle or act even a little bit sleepy until after 4, its what she used to do before we started bw-ing and I thought we'd left it all behind! 2 bad ( ie 35 min only) naps to9day aswell. You're right that I somehow need to intervene less, I just don't know how, or what to do if that doesn't work. Whenever I hang back her noises always escalate into a full cry plus she's then wide awake aswell - do I just need to keep waiting for longer for several nights until it 'sticks?' She's going into her own room next week so maybe that will help.
I haven't dropped the 2 night feeds yet because I believe they have to be 16lb before their stomach is big enough to hold enough for a whole night, and Floss is only 14lb, a petite baby! We give her formula for the df and then usually get the best strech of sleep in the whole 24 hours right afterwards, so I think it sort of knocks her out. I'll try ANYTHING though, so is that one the best one to drop first if I only drop one til she's a bit bigger? When she wakes for it do I just stop giving it to her, or phase it out by bringing it forward gradually? I'll keep on with modified shpat to try to settle her but sometimes I'm doing it for 2 or more hours and even rocking seemed to have lost its effectiveness last night. Do you think its worth starting pu/pd?
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I haven't dropped the 2 night feeds yet because I believe they have to be 16lb before their stomach is big enough to hold enough for a whole night, and Floss is only 14lb, a petite baby!
Well, there is no set weight for dropping feeds, tbh. Granted she is smaller and is breastfed a lot, but this is something to consider. Personally, I would start with dropping the DF. Since she's bottle fed for that, there are a couple of ways you can do it (I don't recommend going cold turkey). Check out this link to get all the details for one way:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=54662.0
The other way--what we did--is to keep the DF at the same time, but offer less and less. We dropped an ounce every 2-3 days. Then once, you've done 1 ounce for 3 days and you finally drop it all together, if she wakes up, you would resettle.
For you, however, I think the first one might be best as it might discourage any habitual wakings.
While you're dropping the DF, keep the breastfeeding at night for now--if needed. Once she's not on the DF anymore and making up for those ounces during the day, then you'll be able to assess whether or not her wakings at night are hunger-related. If she's waking at the same time every night and/or she's not eating as much in the AM, then I definitely think it's worth considering it time to drop all night feeds. But again, we'll wait on this step.
(Quick question: does she always wake around the same time at night to eat?)
Okay...to intervene less, it's just going to take some faith and listening on your part. Faith that by holding back, you're doing the right thing and helping her to learn independent sleep; and listening because you will need to be able to distinguish between mantra crying/self-soothing crying (no intervening) and "I need you!" crying (you'll intervene). It's tough, I ain't gonna lie. It took me a few days to figure it out with DS. But you just have to try. If you feel that it is time for you to go to her and soothe, then shh/pat until she is calm, not asleep, and stop. If she starts crying again, do the shh/pat again. You'll gradually reduce this over the next few days. If you start to notice that the shh/pat is only making her more upset, then you can try PU/PD. I'd pop over to that board for some advice if that's the route you feel you should take. But, I always suggest shh/pat first.
Re: naps...what is she like when she wakes up for those naps? Is she grumpy? Can she handle a full A time afterward? I can't remember, but she's always been a short napper, right?
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Thank you so much, I tried waiting longer and really hanging back when she stirred last night and at first she escalated her cries to hysteria point like normal and when she woke at 9.00, wouldn't settle at all, she literally screamed for 45 minutes, flailing and banging her arms and legs around and shaking her fists. I df her then, but persevered and after that, she stirred several times during teh night, but I waited and she resettled herself and slept until 4! I couldn't believe it! And after her 4am feed (an hour later than normal) she slept through until getting up time at 6.45, even though she had to have a nappy and clothes change after her feed (normally guaranteed to induce wide awakeness!). Maybe she was sleeping well because she was mega-tired from a run of bad nights, but maybe me holding back helped her settle herself too, so THANK YOU SO MUCH for the advice, and for telling me just how to use the sh-pat to settle her too.
She's on her first nap right now, so what should I do if she wakes after 35 mins like usual? I mean if she starts real crying? Normally I try to settle her, she gets hysterical and bangs her limbs around, hits me, etc then after 20 mins I give up and get her up.
I will start reducing the df from tonight too, using your method
Louise
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Hi, sorry, just a quick ps - I dashed off before thinking she was waking but she settled herself and has napped for 1 hour so far! I didn't answer your question, but yes, she's always been a short napper, but always had NWs too, so I thought it was just because she is always a bit OT and always carrying a sleep debt from night to day and day to night, bless her. Her longest ever nap was 1hr 25 mins when I rocked her after 35 mins and occasionally (got as frequent as once every couple of days until a week or two ago) she napped 1hr 10mins, which I guess is 2 sleep cycles, but after that there was NO settling her for more sleep. She almost always refuses the cn too now, even if she's had two bad 35 min naps, like yesterday. I even tried offering her the cn a second time 15 mins later too but no success.
Thanks again for helping me, I knew I was intervening too much but just didn't know how to go about reducing it without teaching her ( I thought) to cry more to get picked up. I was reading BWSAYP again last night too to refresh myself. I hope it carries on, but just in case the napping isn't quite sorted adn she wakes after 35 mins this afternoon, what should I do if sh-pat makes her more cross, like normal?
Finally, your other question, she wakes anywhere between 2 and 4 for her am feed then does eat quite hungrily when she's fed again at 7ish. Its usually nearer to 2.30 or 3.00 when she wakes but its not precisely habitual. Today it was 4, which is quite unusual.
Louise
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Oh, Louise, I am so happy to hear about that good night :) It's so hard not to respond when they make noises...but sometimes (lol, wait ALL the time!) babies are noisy sleepers! :P I'm glad you're finding the confidence in yourself and in her...and it will only continue to grow, hon.
Okay, if she wakes up 35 minutes into her nap like usual--and she's had a pretty good night--then first, just do the same thing you did at night: wait to see if she will self-settle. If her crying escalates past the mantra cry with no sign of stopping, go in and try shh/pat first. If she truly, truly hates it with a passion that surpasses anything else (yes, very melodramatic), then it really may be time to start PU/PD. If that's the case, have you read through the PU/PD FAQs???
If you can't extend her nap after, say, 20 minutes or so, then get her up, feed and have A time like normal. But just be sure to shorten that A time so that her next nap isn't OT.
Once she's had a couple good nights, then I think we'll start really focusing on her naps (looking at A times, etc.).
How did today/last night go?
(Btw, Jane is out of town for the weekend.)
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Last night was good, not as good as the previous night, but still MILES better than normal. She woke once before her df (normally its 2 or 3 times) and slept through her df for the first time ever, then slept through til just after 2am when she really started crying. I settled her quite easily and she slept til 3 when she got her feed, but dozed off towards the end of it, so I just placed her in the cot and she slept again until 6 when she was really hard to settle, it took about 25 minutes, but she went off til 7 when she was woken up by filling her nappy! We got up then, which is 15 mins later than we normally get up, so all in all, a great night. You're right, it is hard to hold back, but somehow I find it easier at night than for naps and she does too, I think. I heard her resettle herself a few times in the night, but naps are harder for her.
Yesterday she slept 45 mins for her pm nap, which is a bit better than the normal 35 mins and she's having her am nap now, after 3 hrs 10m A time (the same as yesterday's am nap when she slept for over an hour) so hopefully this will go well too! The only problem is that I'm really nervous all the time as I can't quite believe it so I hope I'm not 'transmitting' it to her ... I hardly slept myself last nigth even though I was dead tired, I just lay awake watching the clock, listening to every movement, what an idiot I am! I just couldn't get myself off. If she has a few nights in a row like this does it mean its going to stay like that for good and be her 'normal' sleep pattern? She has had the odd good night before but then it was always a fluke and she returned to lots of wakings straight afterwards, but we've never had 2 in a row before.
Thanks again for all your help, I'd never have worked it our for myself!
Louise
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Oh, does she sleep in your room? If so, then it might make her nights even better (and yours, too, for that matter) if she's in her own room. Just as we adults can be woken up by our LOs' noise, so can they be woken up by ours. Obviously, this is a suggestion if space permits; but I know a lot of moms (and dads, too) who have found this switch to improve things a lot. Of course...getting her into her own room might create a bump in sleep if she's not used to being in a different room; but we can cross that bridge when/if we need to. :)
You're feeling nervous right now because this isn't what you're used to. I worry, too, when my LO is going through a wonky time. But, take a deep breath, and try to tell yourself that what happens, happens...regardless of whether or not you're resting. ;) Best part is...if she wakes up, you know what to do to get her back to sleep!! Good feeling, huh?
If she has a few nights in a row like this does it mean its going to stay like that for good and be her 'normal' sleep pattern? She has had the odd good night before but then it was always a fluke and she returned to lots of wakings straight afterward, but we've never had 2 in a row before.
Well, it could be. Or if things start getting off again, and her nights have improved, I'm more inclined to think it's just her needing some routine tweaking during the day. Some LOs are hardwired to wake up a lot in their sleep; she might be one of those babies. But she's easy to resettle at night (save for when she's hungry). But again, we'll cross this bridge if it comes across our path :)
How has the DF weaning gone?
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Thanks for the reassurance. She does sleep in our room still, but is moving to her own room on Monday, as dh is away for a week so that will be my chance to move her gradually, step by step across the landing and into her room over several nights. Hopefully she will accept it easily then.
We had a BRILLIANT nap this mornign opf 1 hr 20 mins, the longest she has ever taken by herself, which was after 3hrs 10 m A time. I tried giving her the same A time after that, but she was really hard to settle and therefore ended up with an even longer A time of nearer to 3 hrs 20 ms, then woke after 35 mins and wouldn't resettle. Do you think she was OT? I've been kicking myself ever since!
We're starting to reduce the df amount after tonight, mainly because I already had the bottles made up. Do you think I should have some water in a bottle too, in case she wants more after the milk has gone?
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Woohoo! That is a great nap! And a good A time, too.
The jury's out on the 2nd nap, though. When you say she was hard to settle, how so (babbly or grumpy)? How did she wake up?
Don't kick yourself for anything you did or didn't do. We all go through periods when we have to tweak and see what works and what doesn't for them. It's just one of those times for you :)
I wouldn't offer the water. The idea behind weaning the DF is to encourage her to go longer at night now, and to take more during the day--moving more towards an "older" eating routine where they consume all calories during the day.
Besides, she still has a night feed, so if she's hungry, she'll make it up then. :)
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I'm afraid we had a bit of a setback last night - can you advise what went wrong and more importantly what I can do differently tonight? She woke at 8.30 (after 2 hours asleep) and was easy to resettle but then woke again at 9.00 and after 30 mins of trying to resettle her, dh gave her the df 15 mins early. She sleeps on her side so whenever she's put into her cot, I always lay her on her side and she drifts off nicely, so whenever she wakes she tends to be on her back (maybe that wakes her?) so I roll her back to her side, sh-pat til she's relaxed, then leave. Last night she wouldn't go onto her side, she kept resisting me moving her over and screamed like she was being scalded, so I tried leaving her on her back and sh-patting her there instead, but she carried on screaming and added in the delightful new activity of lifting up her legs and slamming them down on the mattress!
After the df (she was happy with teh reduced amount btw, so thats good) she is normally very easy to settle, but exactly the same thing happned, and after half an hour of this, dh picked her up and she did some huge burps, so must have had some trapped wind, bless her. But then, again, after that, he tried to settle her for another half an hour with her thrashing and shouting, until I said I'd take over (I know, Tracey says not to do that and we normally wouldn't but he was losing patience). I settled her fairly easily at 11.00pm, she slept until 2.00 when the same thing happend again and by 2.45 she was still wide awake and fighting, so I bf her, then she settled easily again until 5.00, I resettled her okay until 6.15 and the wide awake screaming started and carried on until we got up at 6.45. She's got red eyes and looks so tired, and its thrown off our day a bit, but anyway, what do you think has happened? I was devastated! Is it a type of regression perhaps? Can I get it back on track? I didn't pick her up at all during all the times I was settling her, just kept talking in a low voice and resting my hand on her back in the cot. I tried holding her in place on her side more firmly too, but she struggled.
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Hi again, I'm a bit stressed, so any help would be appreciated.
We had another brilliant nap this am, of 1hr 25 mins, then grandparents visited at lunchtime and I can only think that she got OS because she was hard to put down (tried at 2h 55 A time but actually went to sleep at 3h 05 A time) then her pm nap was only 20 mins and she wouldn't resettle after that, although I kept trying for half an hour. I gave her a cn too, but that was only 25 mins long and so finally I tried to give her an early bedtime, but she was a little hard to settle and didn't end up going to sleep until 6.45pm. Its now 9pm and she's woken 5 or 6 times already. She woke after 5 minutes, then 10 and I've lost track of the intervals after that. Each time she's been practically hysterical and I've ended up picking her up to calm her down. Once I even stayed with her and kept my hand on her and httj for 10 mins after she was asleep, although I've managed to put her down awake each time and left her to fall asleep on her own all the other times.
I hope this doesn't undo the progress we were starting to make but she needs to get some sleep and won't be settled in the cot. However now I'm scared I've created a situation where she's going to cry to be picked up every time she wakes.
She's not teething and she's over her cold so I have no idea what's happened!!!! Can OT cause something this horrible? I'm dreading the rest of the night.
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One more question, I was just reading this thread "How we stopped the night feeds with a 9 month old" (can't believe I've never noticed it before). Do you think this could apply to my dd? In the thread it talks about how they can wake up hungry because they've kind of 'trained' their system to be hungry in the night and this can be reversed by watering down their bottle/reducing the bf. As you know we're reducing the df, which is a bottle, but she's still breastfed at around 3ish, so do you think I should reduce that at the same time? I can start giving her the bottle in the evening instead so she's got plenty of calories in her tummy before bed.
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Sorry, I forgot to answer your question before - when I say she's hard to settle, she cries as soon as she hits the cot even though she's calm and relaxed when I put her in (or she seems to be). When she does this I usually go back a step if she won't settle in the cot and do the last couple of steps of the wind down again and that normally works.
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OT can be rough on nights, yes.
Is her A time normally around 3h, or is it more? Just wondering about that 20 nap.
Re: feeding at night...if you would like to try no night feeding at night while continuing to reduce the DF, it might be worth a shot. Is she on 3 solids meals a day? You could try doing a top-off feed in the evening (not sure if you already do) to see that she can get through the night. The thing is, if her body's used to getting calories at night, she will need some time to adjust as you move all of the calories to the day. Since you're bf, it might be like she's going through a GS as your supply matches the daytime increase, too.
Re: your last post. She's 8 months old now? Do you think it could be a bit of SA?
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Do you think last night's disastrousness could just be down to being OT or OS and the bad naps in the afternoon? I hope thats all it is! Should I expect some regression too, even though she's a girl? In the end last night, after such a bad start, by the time she was fed she was sleeping okay again - didn't wake until 3.45 for a feed then went straight down afterwards til getting up time at 6.45, so that was a blessed relief, as I was worried we were back to square 1!
Her A time in the morning is currently 3h10m and that seems to be working (had another 1h25m nap again today - woohoo!) but then after that I don't think I've got the A time right - today was about 3h05m and she only slept 45 mins, but there were no visitors or craziness at lunchtime today though.
I'm not sure about it being SA when she goes down because 90% of the time she goes down easily and falls straight asleep, just sometimes she doesn't seem to be relaxed enough and frets so I pick her up and repeat the last bit of the wind down for a few minutes .... but, I'm worried this picking up is a bad habit, even though its only at the beginning of the nap/night. It seems to work though and the second time I put her down she always goes straight off to sleep (never needed to pick her up a second time).
I'm going to very gradually try to cut out the night feeds altogether now, I'm inspired by that other thread! I'll keep reducing the df amount in the way I've already started, and begin by finishing the early am bf as soon as the strong sucking stops. I'll cluster feed her before bed too to tank her up. Thaks again, sincerely, for the brilliant and sage advice, you are ALWAYS right, what a lucky (and cute) ds you have!
Louise
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Do you think last night's disastrousness could just be down to being OT or OS and the bad naps in the afternoon?
Sure, I've seen the same happen with my LO.
Re: A times...I think we have a great first A time at 3h10 with a 1h25 nap :D
I think her 2nd nap is UT. I say that because it's been that way for a couple of days, she's happy upon waking, and her A time is less than her first one of the day (for many LOs their first one is their shortest). So tomorrow--or today, depending on where you are--I would gently extend it to ~3h10...maybe 3h15. In all, only by 5-10 minutes. See how that goes.
Re: SA. Thanks for describing what's happening. I really don't know, tbh; but if she's only needing a quick reassurance and goes back down, then I think you're okay. Just keep an eye on it. We can revisit this if you think it's becoming an issue.
I hope the night feed weaning is going okay. Since you're cutting out 2 at once, like you said, a gradual approach is best, slowly shifting those calories over to the day.
Thanks for thinking I'm always right...wish it were true and that DS didn't want to start his morning suddenly at 6 am (ugh) :P Just happy to pay it forward and am so THRILLED that you're seeing results with your LO *hugs*
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Hi, got a great nap of 1h20m again this morning, which I'm hoping has now become the norm ... but I tried extending the A time a bit to 3h15 after it and the pm nap was only 30 mins and I couldn't extend it. Do you think I should lengthen the A time even more?
I was suprised her nap was so good this am because we had a bit of an EW horrow at 1.45, which lasted until around 3.30am, although it was okay after that (and before that too). It must be connected to her feeding around that time, so you think? I fed her at about 2.30 when she clearly wasn't going to settle but even that didn't make her relaxed.
Louise
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Hmm, try scaling back then to 3h10--keep it there for a couple of days. 30 minute naps are typically OT, so I think the 3h15 might have been too much a jump at once. So, we'll go slower.
What was she acting like during her NW? Was she grumpy or was she happy/babbling? What did the rest of her day look like after the 30 minute nap?
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Hi
I've had the same experience today as he previous few days - a good long am nap and a 35 minutes pm nap. I tried reducing the A time to 3h10, but she just wouldn't settle and I had to take her back out of the cot to get her sleepy and by the time she actually fell asleep it was 3h20 instead! Should have started wind down sooner I guess, so will do that tomorrow and try again at 3h10. I tried to give her a cn to make it up but she refused it and she went to bed at 6.20pm in the end, meaning a 4 hour A time exactly, yikes, I hope this doesn't bode badly for tonight, as dh is away all week and I'm practically talking to myself already! I@m moving her into her own room over the next few nights too.
When she has NWs (the ones where she just won't go back to sleep and is wide awake) she is usually crying and flapping around in a really grumpy way most of the time. SOmetimes she calms down but doesn't seem sleepy, she just bats stuff around in her cot like her blanket or lovey or pats the cot bars, etc. It would be funny if I wasn't so tired at the time. Maybe I'm still intervening too much sometimes? When she's like this the pattern is that I try to calm her by sh-patting (modified version) and then when she starts to calm down I walk away to leave her to fall asleep on her own and she wakes back up and starts crying. This can be repeated countless times for a couple of hours so I end up staying longer, til she's asleep, just to make sure we both get some sleep. I guess this is cheating really?
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Update from today, unfortunately her am nap was only 45 mins and I couldn't resettle her. Don't know why as her A time was 3 h10 which has worked brilliantly giving 1h20m naps for about a week. She didn't have a bad night either - in bed for 12.5 hours with only 3 wakings, the longest at 1.30am for 40 mins. I didn't even feed her until 5.30am which I guess indicates she doesn't really need it or feel all that hungry? Anyway, her pm nap wasn't great either - woke after 35 mins although I managed to resettle her this time and she slept a further 50 mins, so 1h 25 in all. If she has a 'medium' nap like this morning (i.e. not ideal but not as awful as can be) how should this affect the next A time?
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Update from today, unfortunately her am nap was only 45 mins and I couldn't resettle her. Don't know why as her A time was 3 h10 which has worked brilliantly giving 1h20m naps for about a week.
I think she might need an A time increase already. What probably happened was that her bad nights were making her more tired during the day, but as she's catching up, she can handle more A time. Again, I would try extending by ~5-10 minutes.
I didn't even feed her until 5.30am which I guess indicates she doesn't really need it or feel all that hungry?
As she gets more calories in during the day, this feed with either slowly get closer to her first AM feed or go away completely on it's own. Normally, when LOs wake up at night bc they're hungry, the pattern is typically that they'll drift for a few minutes, then wake back up...and so on. I think that because she settled after the 1:30 NW until 5:30, she probably wasn't hungry at 1:30.
Anyway, her pm nap wasn't great either - woke after 35 mins although I managed to resettle her this time and she slept a further 50 mins, so 1h 25 in all.
If her A time was kept the same after that 45 minute nap, then I think the 2nd one was OT. All in all, 1h25 is close enough to a 1.5h nap and should be able to last her through a full A time until bedtime. :)
If she has a 'medium' nap like this morning (i.e. not ideal but not as awful as can be) how should this affect the next A time?
Whenever LO short naps, then you need to reduce the subsequent A time. By how much depends on the LO, so you need to watch her cues. Some moms will do A time minus the amount she short napped by. For example, nap was supposed to be ~1.5h, but LO only slept 45; so they reduce A time by 45 minutes). Other LOs don't need a lot shaved off (my LO only does 15-20 minutes less than normal). But, definitely, A time shouldn't be more than regular after a short nap.
Overall, just to get some feedback from you...how do you think she's doing now? Have you seen an improvement in her temperament/mood during all of this? Or do you think things are still the same?
I think you moving her to her own room will be a really good move for her :D You can do it :) *hugs*
(I hate it when DH leaves, too. I always worry about the nights)
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Thanks for answering all my neurotic questions. Florence is in her own room now at last - hooray! (Although I feel very weird and miss her a bit, my bedroom seems huge and empty all of a sudden.) She was on the landing last night, as I've moved her a few feet at a time, and woke every hour from 12.00 til 6.00am. I'm hoping it was just because it was a bit drafty - she was easy enough to settle luckily.
I'm going to try upping her A time when she's had an okay night - does this mean extending all of them, not just the am one? Today and yesterday her am naps lasted only 35 mins, although today I was able to extend it for another 45, but her pm nap was short too and I couldn't extend that one. Does a broken sort of nap like her am one count as a too short nap, and therefore means the next A time should be reduced? If I add them together it comes to an 80 min nap, but really it was two little naps, so presumably not as restorative?
To answer your question, I definitely feel things are going alot better, thanks to your help! She does seem much happier and less grumpy during the day, even when she's getting tired, although still can be mega-grumpy when she wakes early from a nap. When she wakes early (and when she has NWs) I often sh-pat her back to what appears to me to me a dozy calm state, then when I gradually retreat, a few mins later she often wakes back up and starts crying/flopping around again and I'm back to square one. This can happen over and over again, sometimes I even get as far as lifting the duvet up to get into bed, and after a few repetitions I often give in and sh-pat her into a deeper sleep. What am I doing wrong?
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I'm going to try upping her A time when she's had an okay night - does this mean extending all of them, not just the am one?
Well, at this age, it's more about finding which A time works best for each time slot. I would start with the first A time--you know, singling it out so that you can tell cause and effect more easily. Then just go from there :)
Does a broken sort of nap like her am one count as a too short nap, and therefore means the next A time should be reduced? If I add them together it comes to an 80 min nap, but really it was two little naps, so presumably not as restorative?
Hmm, it depends. Sometimes, a broken 80 minute nap is fine; other times she needs a bit shorter A time following. But, I mean, 80 minutes is still pretty close to 1.5h, so she should still be able to handle a significant A time afterward.
When she wakes early (and when she has NWs) I often sh-pat her back to what appears to me to me a dozy calm state, then when I gradually retreat, a few mins later she often wakes back up and starts crying/flopping around again and I'm back to square one. This can happen over and over again, sometimes I even get as far as lifting the duvet up to get into bed, and after a few repetitions I often give in and sh-pat her into a deeper sleep. What am I doing wrong?
Is her cry a tired cry/self-soothing cry (you know, like to block the world out kind of thing) or a mantra cry, or is it her "I need you cry?" If it's not the latter, then I wouldn't even go in and do shh/pat. But again, I'm really black and white with getting up with DS when he wakes up at night (I DON'T do CIO or CC, just in case someone might read more into that than I mean). But I can only do that because I've had to learn his cries and what they mean. So...since you're there with her, you know best what her cries sound like and might mean...
Sleep might be a bit wonky for a couple of days until she gets used to her new room; as long as you're prepared for that (which I think you are :)), then it will be easier knowing that during the day, you adjust A times if you can't extend a short nap and put to bed earlier if needs be to let her catch up on some sleep.
*hugs* I'm hoping you both are doing okay with the room change!
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Thanks for the advice about A times, I'll keep tweaking (I guess you keep tweaking til they go to school!)
Last night - the first in her own room - started out so well, she slept from 6.30pm right through the (now very watery) df until 1.30am, then that was it, she only slept for a max of 30 mins after that but it was mostly 10 or 15 mins, then I started to drift off, then she woke again, for 5 hours! I fed her around the normal time and she seemed starving and drank alot, but that didn't seem to make her sleep any more easily. Could this be connected to her being in her own room? At about 5 I was so fed up trekking back and forth that I slept on her floor, but it didn't make her wake any less. She seemed easy enough to settle each time (I mean there was no screaming or throwing herself around/slamming legs down, etc) but I guess she never went into a deep sleep at all. She woke up yawning and I reduced her A time to 3 hours, which seems to have worked because she's been alseep just over an hour so far.
From what you say about cries, it seems that I am still intervening too much. I now hang back when she makes a noise but go in when it becomes loud or panicky sounding, because I thought that was an 'I need you' cry, because its not a mantra cry .... but could it be a block out the world type if cry instead? I always thought they only did those when you were putting them down to sleep. If your LO does one of those cries, how long does it last before he settles himself, or does it sometimes escalate into the 'I need you' type of cry instead? Sorry for all the questions about minutiae, I feel like I'm trying to learn a foreign language without a phrasebook!
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Hi, an update from today - I've extended the A times in the morning to 3h20m and it seems to have worked! Got a 1h30m nap yesterday and 1h20m today, hooray! I've gradually extended the middle of the day A time to 3h25m today (she's asleep at teh mo so the jury's out whether its worked, but as I've been extending it the 35 min naps have persisted). NWs are still a bit bad though, but not as bad as the first night in her own room. Her df is now v watery so I don't think its filling her up and she's waking at a slightly earlier time each night, last night it was 10.45pm. I'm trying to 'tank her up' before bed with extra milk, but she doesn't always want to drink it all. I'm trying to reduce (in minutes, cos its a bf) the 3am-ish feed too, but this morning she was awake from 1.15 screaming for it and by 2.00am when I still hadn't settled her I fed her and she seemed starving. Will this just sort itself out in time as she gets used to less night time calories?
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Hi Louise :) Sorry that I've been MIA...I've been under the weather these past couple of days.
Okay! So naps look great! I think you've got a great handle on those and how to adjust A times as needed. Well done! :)
Now, for nights. I think it's time to not give her a bottle any more at the DF time. If you're giving her a top-off feed right before bed, she should be able to go past that usual DF time, hunger-wise. She might still need the MOTN feed, and I imagine that the time she wakes up for it might move forward as the DF is no longer there. If she settles back once she's been fed, then I think it's okay to feed her. I mean, if she's hungry, she's hungry, right?
What do you think about trying that? Nixing the DF completely now, resettling her if she wakes at that time, and feeding once in MOTN if she needs it. Then after a bit (like maybe a week or two), you can try weaning that last MOTN feed.
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Don't apologise! I'm grateful for all the help you've been giving me and I appreciate you have to fit this in around a LO and probably alot more too. Hope you're feeling better.
Right, I'll definitely do that, I'll ditch the df altogether and then keep trying to reduce the 3am ish feed. It has started to become a bit earlier now, I guess because the df isn't filling her up, so should I just go with it or try to get her to wait until later in the night for it?
My am naps seem to be sorted (although I feel wary tempting fate by saying that!) as they've been consistently between 1h20 and 1h25 every day for a while (even 1h30 one day!). However the pm naps are still 35 mins only. I've been upping the lunchtime A time gradually in case its been too short and making her UT and got to 3h25m yesterday but the naps was still 35 mins. Should I keep going and making it 3h30 , then 3h35, etc? I remember you saying that the middle A time is usuall the longest and the first one is comfortably 3h20m. Is it possible thats all she needs? She does wake up grumpy from the 35 min nap though and has a bit of a tantrum in her cot, whereas after the longer am nap she's grinning and babbling. Her bedtime is about 6.30pm so with the short nap her A time is about 3h30m, so I was wondering what would happen if she did nap for 1h30? Should I move her bedtime back an hour? Or would her last A time be nearer 2h30 instead?
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This is just a little postscript to ask a question about another development. Both her naps have been AWFUL today, even though we started the day the same as all the other (successful) ones. Her am nap was 35 mins, then I reduced her A time to 2h50 (going by her tired signs) but her second one was 25 mins and she woke up screaming, I tried to settle her for 30 mins, but she was still screaming when I brought her down and it lasted for 90 minutes! She was hysterical and, I assume, very very tired. DH is away again this week and I think she is pining for him, as she has learned from his absence all of last week that he won't be back tonight like when he's at work. She's off her food a bit too, although no signs of illness and no signs of teething. I've out her down for a very early cn which has lasted 20 mins so far, but even so she will be OT tonight, and if we have a bad night, probably tomorrow too. So, (at last) my question is ... what do I do tomorrow? Shorten A times? Bend the rules and do apop if needed or stay firm? I don't want her independent sleeping to unravel, but then I don't want her sleeping to unravel full stop! Is it common for babies to have SA with their fathers at this age (8mo)? She does adore him but has never been bothered when he's been at work. I haven't realy been able to soothe her, and despite going through hell to keep breastfeeding her (I remember blood literally pouring down my chest at one point), whenever she sees a bottle she lunges at it and makes excited noises. So all in all, I've barely made any impression on her at all! Ha ha!
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Right, I'll definitely do that, I'll ditch the df altogether and then keep trying to reduce the 3am ish feed. It has started to become a bit earlier now, I guess because the df isn't filling her up, so should I just go with it or try to get her to wait until later in the night for it?
Hmm, well, if the time is fluctuating around, it doesn't sound habitual. You can try w2s about 1.5h before she would wake up and see if that helps after 3-5 days. But, if you think it's hunger, then keep going with the MOTN feed weaning, but just when she wakes up hungry, iyswim. The earlier she wakes, the more she'll probably take for her first AM feed. I imagine that MOTN waking will stop moving earlier at a certain point because her bedtime feed will last for a while. I guess what I'm saying is just experiment with it and see what works and what doesn't. We can always try something else, right? :)
Should I keep going and making it 3h30 , then 3h35, etc? I remember you saying that the middle A time is usuall the longest and the first one is comfortably 3h20m. Is it possible thats all she needs?
Could be, yes. Have you tried extending these past couple of days?
Her bedtime is about 6.30pm so with the short nap her A time is about 3h30m, so I was wondering what would happen if she did nap for 1h30? Should I move her bedtime back an hour? Or would her last A time be nearer 2h30 instead?
If she's only sleeping for 35 minutes in the PM, then I wouldn't suggest her doing a 3.5h A time--especially since she's not even doing that after a long nap, iyswim. You might want to bring bedtime forward by ~15-30 minutes so that she's not going to bed OT. What is her wake-up time?
what do I do tomorrow? Shorten A times? Bend the rules and do apop if needed or stay firm?
I would try for another regular day tomorrow. I hesitate to try tweaking a bunch of things based upon one off day--patterns tend to be more suggestive.
All the screaming, though, makes me think it's some discomfort. While I do think that SA anxiety can creep in this early, I'm hesitant to attribute her short naps and fussiness to that (who knows? I could be wrong). Even though you say she's not teething, that's what I thought it was based upon the screaming, short naps, and not eating. Have you tried orajel or some kind of pain meds--juuuuust to see if they help?? If so, then I think you've got your answer.
Overall, I think it's worth it to stay with how you're currently doing things. If she wakes up early and won't go back to sleep, reduce the next A time and try for ind. sleep again. I think you've got a good handle on things now, though, so if you really feel that she's just utterly and totally exhausted, I think that APOP is okay, too :) As long as you keep it in check, it shouldn't replace all your hard efforts.
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Thanks for your patience! The df is now history, and she seems to be doing well at the beginning part of the night now, and sleeps right through the evening until she wants a feed around 2 or 3am. Last night she slept from 6.15pm to 2.00am with only a little peep at 10.00pm but she settled herself. This in itself is miraculous to us, so thank you so much.
Unfortunately I'm having trouble getting the MOTN feed reduced and her waking is becoming longer at that time. The last few nights I've been trying to gradually reduce the number of minutes I feed her for (got down to 10) but she's been waking again afterwards and beoming hard or impossible to settle. I thought she was ok with the reduction in feeding time because she goes to sleep happily afterwards but last night when she was awake for 2 hours afterwards dh suggested she sounded hungry and I fed her a second time and she was very hungry! Should I just stop trying to reduce these feeds for now?
PS DH is back now and she seems to have cheered up and got over whatever her problem was, but if it happens again, I'll try the pain meds. I just assumed because there was nothing to see on her gums that I could rule out teething, but maybe not.
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I would go ahead and let her take a full feed then when she wakes. If it starts throwing off her AM appetite, then you know you have an issue. While many bf babies aren't eating at night by ~6-7 months, some need it a little bit longer. Maybe try weaning the feed again in a couple of weeks?? That might help :)
Otherwise, her nights sound fabulous--and I'm sure you're enjoying getting the sleep ;)
Glad to hear she's settled down once DH got home. It could have been that she missed him and knew something was off.
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Great, thank you so much. I'll leave it for a couple of weeks then try again. I can't help thinking she should be able to sleep through by now and I'm worried that if I keep feeding her, she'll keep needing/expecting it. One more little question (sorry) when/if she won't resettle in the night and she's having a long NW, I sh-pat to calm her and then withdraw when she seems sleepy so she can settle herself, but she often dozes off and then wakes back up again in 5-15 mins (usually just as I'm getting back into bed or going off to sleep myself!). I then come back and repeat it all over again, and this can happen loads of times for an hour or two, and in the end I often end up cheating and sh-pating her into a deeper sleep or sometimes resort to apop. What am I doing wrong? Or should I just persevere even if its hard and she'll grow out of it eventually?
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Hi again, just had a bad couple of nights (and days) again and things are starting to unravel, I'm not sure what I've done wrong. She is back to waking 2 or 3 times before her MOTN feed without settling herself, although she is fairly easy to resettle at those times (around 10.00, 11.30 and 1.00), but then she wakes now any time after 5 and absolutely will not go back to sleep, I've tried for an hour or two each morning and even tried picking her up and rocking but she's just wide awake.
Today it was 5.45am which was quite good! She used to always get up around 6.45 and if she woke up before then I could resettle her, but now, because her A time is starting so early her am nap is very early (9.10am today) then her pm nap is early, thats still always too short, and ends up finishing somewhere around 1.30pm, so its a long stretch til bedtime. I've tried offering a cn which she won't take and we've gradually brought bedtime forward to 6.00pm (used to be around 6.30 - 6.45pm), but then she just wakes early the next day and I'm always trying to catch up and never getting on top of it.
She's ending up with a very long last A time and today even her (normally reliably long) am nap was 35 mins and I couldn't resettle her, so now her second A time has to be reduced and if she does her typical short nap, it will be 1.15pm when she wakes - almost 5 hours til bedtime! What can I do?
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Can you post her routine, please? Just in the EAS format. My brain's kinda fuzzy right now, so seeing it like that will help me visualize her day better :)
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Today's routine was like this, although the waking time is quite variable and today was really good, so all of her A times were fairly reasonable and we've managed to get back on track somewhat (at least during the day). Yesterday because she woke so much earlier her last A time (she refused a cn) was 4.5 hours!
A 6.20am
E 7.00 (bf)
A 7.15
E 8.15 (solids)
A 8.45
S 9.40
A 10.55
E 11.00 (bf)
A 11.15
E 12.15 (solids)
A 12.45
S 2.25
E 3.05 (bf)
A 3.20
E 4.15 (solids)
A 4.45
E 5.00 (bf)
A 5.15
E 5.45 (formula bottle)
S 6.20 (attempted 6.00pm but took a while to settle)
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I thought I'd just add a description of what I do to resettle her during the night, in case anything stands out as obviously problematic. Her earliest NWs are when she's quite easy to resettle but the longer the night goes on, the harder it gets and by her EW its just not possible.
First I wait for the right cry and to see if she will resettle herself, which she does around 50% of the time. I'm not 100% confident with identifying the cries so maybe I'm still intervening too soon. If I go into her room I shut the door behind me to keep it dark and start by trying to calm without touching her by whispering/shushing (although this never works!). Then I try just gently laying a hand on her and whispering/shushing, but that never works and it always seems to make her get ten times louder and this is when she now starts slamming her legs onto the mattress repeatedly.
She always goes to sleep on her side and when I go to her in the night she's always rolled onto her back, so then I used to roll her back onto her side again, but in the last week or so she's started to fight this and flails her arms about, resisting me, and if I get her onto her side she rolls straight back again. I've tried leaving her on her back but don't really know how to sh-pat her or settle her like that and have never succeeded in getting her off to sleep on her back. Instead I usually keep trying to get her onto her side until she allows it, then I can rub her back whilst whispering/shushing. If this works, I gradually withdraw my hand first then reduce my volume, say goodnight, then step away, and I try to do it all before she's asleep.
Sometimes I have to repeat this over and over for an hour or two - she falls asleep but only for 5 or 10 mins, then wakes up and cries. In the end I often stay with her rubbing/whispering until she is more deeply asleep, even though thats naughty and not BW-approved! For her EWs though, now, it doesn't work at all and just seems to make her angry, whether I try to settle her on her side or her back. I thought maybe she wasn't tired, so this morning (at 5.30!) tried picking her up and rocking and she went almost straight to sleep on me, so that must mean she was tired, I guess.
So thats my catalogue of errors! Might be of no use but thought I'd post it anyway. Only other factors which may be relevant are that Floss has now moved to a bigger, bed-sized cot (today) and has more room to roll and flail around. Also, although she isn't exhibiting any other signs, she is pulling her left ear all the time, which I'm sure I read somewhere can indicate teething.
Louise
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Hi, mystifyingly things have gone a bit wonky during the night again now - last night she woke up at 10.30 and didn't resettle ehrself so I went in and employed my usual techniques (above) which didn't work at all, she behaved as if it was an EW and wouldn't go onto her side or fall asleep on her back. It took until 1.45am!! when I fed her, as it was nearly that time anyway, and I guess the oxytocin sent her off. Does it mean she was OT? Now she has a bigger cot she flaps around even more, so I've put 2 rolled up blankets either side of her to make her feel more cosy but it doesn't seem to have made a difference. I even tried rocking her 3 times during that long waking last night and as soon as I put her down she woke right up again and cried.
I became so frustrated I was actually angry as well as tearful and now I feel hugely guilty, not that I did anything ... except maybe hissing 'just go to sleep for God's sake!' but I hissed it quietly! I'm not normaly like that, I'm very patient and sympathetic with her, after all its not her fault she wakes up and can't get back to sleep, but I've had tonsilitis and dh is away (AGAIN) so am at the end of my rope a bit. Does it seem like I'm doing something obviously wrong? Should I be thinking about pu/pd?
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Hi Louise. I'm thinking that with her being 9 months old (am I reading the ticker right?) that you don't need to use blankets or anything to help her reposition herself anymore. Also, when she's on her back, she's got enough control over her body that you do not need to reposition her as you'll only turn yourself into a prop like that. I promise that if you let her do it on her own, she'll wiggle around and squirm, but she is capable of repositioning herself at this age.
I've also asked for some more eyes on this because I'm at a loss. I think there's still an issue--at night--of you trying to resettle her too much. And I think that shh/pat is probably bothering her now more than helping. Honestly, last night when you put her down, and she started crying, I would have hung back for a few seconds to see if she settled herself.
HTH a bit.
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Hi Louise, I just finished reading through this thread and first, (((Hugs))), sorry to hear you are having a rough time but you're a great mommy wanting and trying eveything for your daughter to fix her sleeping issues.
As I read through, 2 things kept coming to my mind, and I might be way off, but I want to throw it out there anyways... reflux or milk allergy/intollerance. Both can cause a lo many nws and poor naps in the day, and thrashing around in the crib, crying, screaming. As well, reflux babies can sometimes tend to sleep on their left sides (instead of wanting to sleep on their backs). Reflux can also be in the form of silent reflux, where the milk is coming up but lo is swallowing it. My dd had a milk protein allergy as a baby and woke non-stop all night, but once we fixed her allergy by changing my diet she automatically slept fine. Have you ever visited the refux boards to see symptoms or have you considered either of these with your lo?
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Thanks for your help and hugs! Last night I was determined to intervene less, I know I'm doing it too much but not sure exactly what to do less, as I think I've somehow slipped back into some familiar ways that worked when she was younger. So yesterday I read all the info on the boards about identifying cries, holding back, etc and I think I've got her mantra cry sussed. I did alot less holding and relaxing her before putting her down and she did cry, which normally would have meant I picked her back up to resettle, but it was a mantra cry and in the end only lasted less then 2 minutes, then she SLEPT RIGHT THROUGH FROM 6.30PM TO 2.30AM!!!!!!!!!!!!! To be fair she always gets fed then, so I fed her and it did take an hour to get her back down (intervening too much again) but I straightened myself out and left her mantra crying again and when I did that she slept through until 6.30am!!
This is the longest sleep she's ever done in her whole life, 12 hours with 1 x 1 hour waking in the middle. She woke happy at 6.30am and I could hear her babbling to herself in her cot for 10 minutes before she cried for me to go in. And today she napped well in the am and for 1 hour in the pm, which isn't ideal, but better than the normal 35 mins. Fingers crossed tonight is the same. I felt mean at first leaving her to mantra cry but now I realise all the times I was trying to help her by intervening I was probably annoying her! Just as you've been telling me all along! I'll update tomorrow with how tonight goes, and hopefully it will be good news. Its my ambition to post on the 'success stories' board instead of reading it drooling with envy!
FTM, thanks for the suggestions about silent reflux, I'll keep it in mind if last night was just a one off, but hopefully her doing so well means she doesn't have that problem. Your description sounds exactly like my friend's 3mo dd though, so I'm going to mention it to her, as she is at a loss why her lo thrashes and cries when she gets put down (she is not a bw follower). And well done for reading all of my posts, now I look back at them I don't half go on alot, I'm sure you must have nodded off!
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What a great night! Hopefully that means you've hit the right note. It's tough hearing them mantra cry, but the important thing is is that you know when she does need you and when she's fussing to herself. Let me know how tonight goes :)
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Well last night was very good, not as good as the previous one, but I'm still happy! She woke a few times and mantra cried and settled herself (don't know if this is good, bad or indifferent as long as she's settling herself?) then needed settling at 10.45 although it only took 3 or 4 minutes. She woke again, maybe for an early feed, at 1.15am but again I settled her easily and then she woke up for a feed and got one at 3.45am, then she settled easily which is a first. She woke happily at 6.20am after 12 hours! The most sleep she has ever had in one stretch!
Her am nap was only 45 mins but her pm nap was good (normally the other way round) but I'm fishing in the dark with her a times now she's waking up more well-rested. If she does wake and won't resettle and I shouldn't reposition her, is there anything I can do besides sh-pat or pu/pd?
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I would start her A time early if she refuses to go back to sleep (either on her own or with your pt/sh). BTW, my ds will wake during nap the odd time with a loud scream and I used to go running in to pt/sh and he would end up totally waking up but now when he does the loud scream I wait a minute and he doesn't do it again and he goes back into a deep sleep. It's almost like he screams out in a dream or something. During his morning nap yesterday he did this 3 different times and I did not rush in, he ended up napping 2 hours- had I rushed in he would have been up for good! If he doesn't renap, get him up, start A early but be mindful that she will be tired earlier too for her next nap.
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Thats great, thanks. I'll try leaving her a bit longer. Our nights (fingers crossed) seem to be on the right track now, last night she woke 2 or 3 times needing me to resettle her (in addition to 3 or 4 times when she settled herself) but it only took a few minutes, which is an enormous improvement. For naps, though, when she had alot of NWs her first A time was 3h10 to 3h20 and she always had a good am nap, but now, I've extended it to 3h25 thinking she is more rested from the night's sleep and can go longer, but her am naps have all been short since her nights improved. She does a better pm nap, but only after a shortened A time, so we have a bit too long between the pm nap and bedtime (3h45 yesterday). Am I wrong in trying to extend her am A time now her nights are better? Or should I go over to the naps board now?
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Hi Louise :)
If you'd like to get some eyes on just the naps issue, then I'd go ahead and start a thread on the Naps board :)
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I hardly dare type this in case I jinx it (!) but Florence has slept through for the last 2 nights! She has stopped asking for her MOTN feed and wakes a couple of times (at the 'old' feed times) but settles herself. Its truly amazing, so thank you so much for all your help. My only problem now is that she wakes very early. Yesterday it was 5.20am, and as she goes to bed at 6.00pm I thoght that was okay and maybe she'd had enough sleep, as she wakes happy and babbling to herself for 10 mins before gradually getting annoyed if nobody comes and then crying.
Today however, it was 4.50am, so surely she can't have had enough sleep if its less than 11 hours? Does EW always mean OT? I could try to move her bedtime back to a later time but as her naps still aren't great, I feel her last A time is long enough without extending it at the moment. Besides, I don't mind waking early, but am only concerned if she's not had enough rest. Today I tried to resettle her (I did yesterday too without success) for 1.5 hours, and I even tried some apop of rocking, but she just rested on me without going to sleep. Does this mean she wasn't really in need of any more sleep?
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First, a quietly secret congratulatons on her sleep! Hope that it continues for you!!
My guess is that your dd is getting enough sleep when she goes to bed so early so she is waking that early and not needing more sleep. My ds does the exact same thing. The odd time he misses his catnap (which he still needs- he's only 6 mths) I put him down at 6pm to prevent OT and he wakes at 5:30ish. Oddly enough he ends up needing an extra morning nap from 7-8. If he gets his pm cat nap I put him down at 7pm and he wakes closer to 7. If he wakes slightly early, he doesn't fuss, so I leave him alone. I used to run in to "rescue" him ::) thinking he couldn't go another second without a bf but now I know he can wait until 7 without a fuss.
I would slowly start delaying the bedtime by 10-15 minutes at a time and hopefully she will start sleeping longer in the morning. Let us know how you do!
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Thanks ever so much for your help, last night she STTN completely without even waking and settling herself, she just slept quietly and contentedly (and then woke up at 5.20am!). I'll try leaving her longer in the mornings and I guess I know I need to push her bedtime back, its just that her last A time is too long already, but I've posted a message on the naps board for help with that, so hopefully that should do it and I won't take up any more of your time! Thanks again
Louise
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That's great that she STTN! Good luck with the daytime adjustments!
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Ooops! Back again - I spoke too soon. Last night we had a bit of regression in the form of a NW at 2.10am which lasted until 3.50am! It was her fifth night of sleeping through and I've checked the BWSAYP book and I can't find it, but I'm sure it said regression after 5 nights is to be expected. I'm not sure what to do though - the only reference I've found to it in the book says 'go back to square one' so does that mean I should stop expecting her to settle herself?
She was gripping onto my finger for dear life last night (never done anything like that before) and crying whenever I took it away so in the end she pretty much fell asleep holding it, so I'm sure that was bad as it was a prop, albeit a new one. What do I do tonight if she wakes again? I managed to resist picking her up or feeding her but she's OT now because she was awake for nearly 2 hours and then woke up at 6.00am for good!
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Sorry to hear she had a long nw like that. Not sure why, nw could be from so many different reasons. I know you're trying to wean her from having so many nws but are you trying to wean from feeding in the night too? It's not unusual for a lo this age to need a night feed or even 2. I would feed but if you're trying to wean from the feed I'm not sure as I've never done that.
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Hi Louise...sorry I've been MIA. I'm thinking you might need some help with her overall EASY. Bad nights come and go in general--for everyone. I wouldn't get upset about one bad night or try to redo everything and second guess all the hard work you've been putting in simply because she had an off night, iykwim.
Other than not changing how you're settling her at night, if you're still feeding her, I think it might be time to wean and/or go to PU/PD. What do you think about those?
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OK thanks, maybe I should just chill out about a couple of NWs, after all, they are nowhere near as bad as they used to be. I think I can't quite believe it that she's actually STTN and keep waiting for it to go wrong! Last night she woke again at 4 but settled much quicker than the previous night and then slept through until 6.25am, which is a huge improvement.
Its 6 days ago now since she first STTN and when she did that, I didn't feed her at the usual 3am time because she slept until 5.30ish, so I've never fed her in the night since, and I consider her to be now night-weaned! She kind of chose that herself by sleeping through, so it was unexpectedly easy, and even now she doesn't seem that hungry when she wakes, and I never feed her before 6.30am.
If the NWs get worse I guess I will have to use pu/pd, so I know there's another board for that. I have avoided it up to now but its my plan B. Anyway, I really will stop posting on this ENORMOUSLY LONG thread now! Thanks loads for all your help, Louise
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I think it's great that you've both made SOOOO much progress!! I mean, many LOs will wake up at night and fuss and then go back to sleep. I think it's wonderful that she's shifted all her calories to the day (makes it easier for you, too).
All I can say is: don't be afraid of using PU/PD if needs be. It might be that you use more of just putting back down (less stimulation). If it comes to that, it might be a rough few days, but don't let yourself fear it. Just breathe deeply and take it as it comes, right? :D