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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: *Liz* on March 19, 2010, 08:50:38 am
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This has been going on for as long as I can remember - we fix it for a week or so - then for some reason or another the EWs come back again. And it will now take me 2 weeks to fix it (essentially he will get OT, and then catch up on some sleep, then OK for a week or so, then back to the EW).
He is getting 10-10.5hrs sleep per night ATM. He is an 11-11.5hr night sleeper at best.
It is dark in his room - obviously the ligher mornings will be impacting a bit as it is impossible to get rid of every crack (although I have tried, trust me ;)). And I guess the birds are starting to sing again.
He is a restless noisy sleeper as well, and we still get random NWs. But he is almost always easy to settle (find lovey, say its OK its just sleepy time, and he lies back down and goes to sleep). I do the same at the EW but it never ever works. He will just roll around for 10 mins or so, then babble a bit, then cry. So I do the same and we can carry on like this for an hour or so.
This morning he stirred at 4.30am, nodded back off again and woke fully at 5.30am :'(. I know I am in for this for the next week or so as well, and I just feel like crying at the thought.
Thing that is really stressing me out is that I CANNOT manage night feeds with number 2 in a few months AND cope with 5am EWs off J as well.
Routine yesterday was
Awake 5.45am (took out of cot at 6.30am)
Nap 12.30 - 14.00 (PD at 12pm but took 30 mins of singing to get to sleep ?OT ?UT as kept in cot until 6.30am. Usually this nap would be 12-2pm)
Asleep 7.15pm (was aiming 7pm but he got hiccups with his bedtime milk ::))
Brief NWings at 9pm, 11.45pm, 4.30am and up for the day at 5.30am (kept in cot until 6.30am)
Sigh. I just don't know what to do with him really. Only thing I have really changed since he went to 1 nap at 12 months is to increase the A before the nap. It was initially 5-5.5hrs and now it is 5.5-6hrs. Any less than 6hrs makes him short nap. But the final A to bed is much the same as it always was. He has always preferred a longer am A.
ANY ideas at all??
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I wish I knew the answer Liz. Madison is like J. Ews settle then creep up again. Thinking it is because OT creeps in. Do you think he is getting a little OT? Madi was an early teether, is it possible that his molars are shifting?(guessing here) I don't think his nap is ready to be dropped!
Being pregnant myself, I can give you lots and lots of hugs and hope eventually J will sleep in one day.
Now that the temperature is getting warmer here in Toronto, we are spending more time outside and I am sure all her stamina is being used up there. :P
I too don't know how I am going to manage a newborn and her waking waking up early, especially since hubby works nights.
Hang in there.
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Oh no, he certainly isn't ready to drop his nap, I think it would finish both of us off ;).
It is something to do with that final A time - I'm sure of it - but I've never ever ever been able to figure it out.
I do think naps longer than 2hrs cause me issues as well now - and I think I agree with you in that he gets OT (how?!!) BUT then catches up through long naps that then rob the night and the cycle continues.
I doubt it is teeth really as all his canines have just finished and he has tended to be an 'on schedule' teether. I gave some dream meds last night just in case and it didn't help at all ::).
I didn't realise your DH did nights - mine does at least one a week as well - but long day shifts a lot of the time as well.
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Would an earlier bedtime be worth a try?
Or the other option I guess if you think he gets a little OT is to do 5days of 1.5hr nap and then throw in a longer one. But do it regularly ???
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I was also thinking of an earlier bedtime and give him a longer nap every 3-5 days-if he will do it. I have noticed a pattern with Madi. When I reduce her nap to 2.5hours after 4 days the EWs creep in. I was planning to throw in a day of a longer nap to see if that makes a difference. Funny thing is, the majority of the time she wakes up on her own. ??? ???
Another thing that popped in my head is I think she is outgrowing her crib. Wondering if she needs more room. ??? Maybe our little ones are just early risers. :-X
If you find any answers please let me know! I hope little J sleeps in for you tomorrow.
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We're in much the same boat, Liz. Following along in the hope of a magic answer!
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Thanks for the support - he has got OT - his nap today was rubbish and he was very tired this afternoon.
I just put him to bed at 6.40pm with no bath ::). But I doubt it will help much - I think I needed to go lower.
I will catch him up though - its just how to stop having a good week followed by another bad week ::) :P.
I suppose I need to figure out what is making him OT really - days when naps cut short or days when I work and his final A is 15 mins too long.
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FWIW, E had 2h30 at lunchtime today and has fallen asleep in less than 30 mins for the first time this week - not sure if it will result in a later wake up, but it says to me that she is less OT than she has been all week.
Unfortunately the other one is calling me now because she is OT and not going to sleep...
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How are things Liz?
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We have been getting short naps and long nights but very restless sleep. Totally got OT, but I really don't know how it happened ???.
Anyway - did a 12pm nap today after a 6am wake-up and he slept for 2.5hrs so should be all caught up again - so now the question is how long to bed? And I think that is the issue really.
We have always done 5-5.25hrs since switching to 1 nap and have always cycled back into the EWs. So the question is whether to try earlier or later. I'm going to try earlier I think, as the morning A is 6hrs.
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Hi Liz....sorry to hear you are still battling this :( About 18 months or so I had to stop worrying about the A time length on its own and look at the bigger picture - even more than I had been before. So if he's up at 6, and 2.5 hours of a nap, then I would not expect him to be in bed any earlier than 630 and 7pm is probably more like it. If he's done 2.5 hours already, then he's only going to need another 11 I would suspect, before he's had enough sleep. But at the same time if he goes for 5 hours after his nap, that makes it 730 for bed and that makes too long of a day with not enough time to sleep at night, kwim? I really had to start looking at wake up and bed as the main factors and nap time as just nap time, existing on its own! Is that making sense or does it sound like I am talking nonsense? (I say this knowing full well that I do talk nonsense a lot of the time.... :) LOL )
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I am glad he has caught up on some sleep! Madi woke up at 6:30am today. Don't know if it was UT or OT? I put her down 4hrs and 45min after a 2.5hour nap. I too can't figure out the last A before bed.
I also would do an early bedtime.
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I know Ben is younger than J but we sort of have a similar problem every now and again. We'll have a few days of EW for no apparent reason - oh and we generally have random NW - I think we always will ::)!
May be way out in left field but what about putting him down for an earlier nap on the day he starts his EW cycle - so at less than 5.5hr A- letting him sleep a little later than the 2 hr - maybe an extra 30 mins - if he will, and then aiming for a normal bed time. Then he would have caught up (theoretically) on his OT and should be able to give you a normal wake up the following day.
I know that this works for Ben - but as I said he is younger than J so that may be why.
XXX
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Thanks guys :).
J does like a long am A - so anything less than 5.5hrs will lead to a 1.5hr nap and then a mega A to bedtime. But I do often go down to 5.5hrs rather than 6 hrs. TBH though it is pretty much a set nap time, and often if I try and extend after a later than average wake-up it goes wrong. Migt be a body colck thing I guess :-\.
Mashi - I think there is something in that really. After a 2.5hr nap I am often only expecting a 10.5hr night as he seems to average 13hrs total now.
I put him down at 7.15pm and he was out within minutes. And had asked to go to bed after his bottle as well. So that will be only 4.5hrs A. We will see, hey?
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What happened Liz? I've been following along as we too get intermittent EW. I just roll with it tbh but the more I think about it the more frustrating it becomes what with no 2 on the way. :(
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Sigh.
Sunday really wasn't too bad
Awake 6am ish
Nap 12.10-2.40
Asleep 7.20
Monday
Awake 6am (but 2 short random NWs that I doubt are routine related, stirred at 4.20 but went back to sleep easily)
Nap 12-2.30 (Was at my Mums and she actually woke him at 2.30 - who knows how long he thought he should sleep for?!!)
Asleep 7.20ish (Asked to go to bed and fell straight asleep)
BUT stirred at 4.30am today and babbled on and off until 5.40am when he woke for the day >:( >:(.
So basically only 10 hrs sleep but I just can't see that it is OT related. Plus he is not crying he is just babbling, calls for attention, but I just put him bacl and he babbles again etc etc.
But how do I cut the nap from such an early start ???.
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Liz I really do wonder if that long nap is affecting his night. 2.5h seems a very long time to me for a lower sleep needs toddler. Can you start by just cutting it down to 2h15 minutes for a week, and then the second week drop it to 2h and see if that starts impacting his nights a bit? I think the timing of it is right, at 6h A time in the morning, and so if his nights end up starting earlier and morning wake is the same time (ie/ he tacks the extra night sleep on to the evening rather than the morning iykwim) the time chane next weekend could help with a bit of that part, and the rest of it you can do by shifting him wee bits at a time once he's down to a 2h nap.
FWIW I limit DS to 2h and have done since about 16/17 months or we get VERY short nights...the extra 30 minutes at nap time will rob much more than 30 minutes from his night, which is strange to me, but that's how he is. And I wonder if J is the same and taking 30 minutes from his nap will tack an hour on to his night?
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Yeah, I'm sure you are right it is just HOW to cut him and not get him OT with too long of an A time until bedtime. He has ALWAYS been prone to robbing night sleep for naps (well, ever since I got him napping at 6mths ;D).
I've just been on the phone to my Mum and was saying that we are actually expecting more total sleep now that when he was 11mths old which is obviously not reasonable.
The odd thing is that he was definately not UT at bedtime - he finished his milk, pushed his books away, signed sleep and climbed off the bed to call Dada to put him to sleep. And pointed to his room to go in and down. And fell asleep in minutes.
This is the bit that confuses me - but I guess this is a total sleep issue/ body clock issue rather than an A time issue?
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Yes....that is what I am wondering. I would cut his nap and bring his bedtime earlier to make up for it. I know that it is not doing anything towards the EWs and I know that the fear would be he would wake 10.5h later and you'd have an even earlier morning but it is worth a try for the sake of 15 minutes...no? At least if he woke at the same time, it would be a 15 minute longer sleep...and so then if you can get him to an 11h night and 2h nap, at least it is a GOOD long night and then you can have the time change next week to push that forward and hour?
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Sounds like good advice :)....just listening in, as I know we'll be here in a few months ;)
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Sounds quite sensible. I'm not against early bedtimes within reason - I often put him down at 6.30-7pm after a bust nap.
Your plan is very similar to mine - but it gives me confidence that someone else who is aware of our history thinks the same sort of thing.
I think I'm getting a bit too hung up on A times/ BW EASY routines and not thinking about the bigger picture.
Thanks :-* :-*
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I think I'm getting a bit too hung up on A times/ BW EASY routines and not thinking about the bigger picture.
I do think there are some toddlers where the A time scenario goes out the window as they are older. I've got one here! It was perfect when he was a baby and he was very A time dependent but lately there are many more factors at play xx
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I think I'm getting a bit too hung up on A times/ BW EASY routines and not thinking about the bigger picture.
I was thinking about this just yesterday! They aren't 'babies' anymore, and I wonder if the principles of BW and EASY are still helpful (of course!), but that we have to keep looking at the bigger picture rather than just A times. xx
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I agree with everything!! I do think the long nap isn't helping your nights Liz. I think 15mins is the way to go, just shave it off nap and do bed a bit earlier and see. Good luck.
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I guess it is more a case of just finding a good time and length for a lunchtime nap really :). Easier said than done, of course.
I decided to put him down at 6hrs A regardless and he sang, squealed and messed about in his cot for 30 mins. So I'm going to get a 1h 20 OT nap I think - especially since the flipping bin men are late so expecting them to come and make a lot of noise any minute soon :(.
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I hope he sleeps for you Liz! Let us know how it goes. :-*
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Ugh.
Nap wasn't too bad- slept 12.15- 2.05 so 1h 50 total. Put him to bed at 6.50 at 4.75 A and again he basically ran to bed waving goodnight.
Slept very soundly for about 3 hrs, then very restless through the night. I resettled quickly at 11pm and 2am, stirred at 4.30am and woke singing at 5.30am.
I know not to judge on one night after an OT nap but am feeling very frustrated as I have been awake since 4.30am again.
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Sorry to hear that Liz. Hope you get a better nap today, I guess you are just going to have to try different things with the nap and see what works.
What is the plan for today?
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Plan is for nap at usual time ie 12pm for no more than 2 hrs but then I think I am going to push for the full 5hrs after the nap.
Mum has him today though - but he usually sleeps fine for her.
I just hope hope hope that it isn't the birds waking him and I am not going to have this ALL summer :'(
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I just hope hope hope that it isn't the birds waking him and I am not going to have this ALL summer
I hope it's not either.
I keep getting nagged by DH to take of the blackout lining I have stuck to the windows, as it's got damp, but it's light at some silly o'clock already. ::)
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Slight improvement :).
Napped from 12-2pm, then PD for sleep at 7pm and asleep by 7.15pm I think.
Was still very restless all night and I did go in twice to locate his lovey for him :-\.
He did wake at 4.30am with the birds but went back to sleep again until 6.05am ish, and then dozed until 6.30am.
SO I think I have found my issue - birds are disturbing and then he isn't tired enough to go back to sleep again.
So looks like it might need to be 5.5-6hrs to the nap, and then 5-5.5hrs after his nap, but with the nap on longer than 2hrs.
That is the new plan for now anyway ;).
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Good news then I guess... and sounds like a good plan to me. Hopefully it'll work for you hun. Xx
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Yeah - I have no idea what is with these random NWings though - it is pretty odd really.
But I think I will just see if they settle themselves first.
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I was thinking about you this morning. I hope your plan works. I am still trying to figure out the last A time.
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Sorry if you've already said - but have you tried white noise to block out the birds?
xx
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We have never used white noise with J so I'm not sure it would do well. Certainly didn't help as a baby.
I do leave the bathroom fan on for naps so I suppose I could try putting it on if I hear him waking at silly o'clock.
Nap was a bit rubbish today typically ::), but I think I'll stick with the plan and a 7pm bedtime. He slept for 1.5hrs instead of 2 hrs - he often does this on a thursday - I think because he is a bit OS as he goes to a music class that finishes at 11.15am and naptime is 12pm.
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We use it more as a blocking-out-noise-tool rather than one to help him sleep iyswim. We've got an upstairs neighbour and so we always use a radio tuned into 'nothing' and it just takes the edge off any noises going on. Would it be worth a try for a couple of nights, or are you worried it might actually disturb his sleep? x
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I think the white noise is worth a try. That's actually one thing we haven't done yet. I don't think those birds are going anywhere, can you chop down the tree? lol ;-D
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Or get a cat :P ;D
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Actually some of the birds ARE going somewhere as we have found a hole in the fascia and the little buggers are living in my roof :o :o. And a very nice man is going to block the hole tomorrow and fiz it properly for me next week (as long as they are not already nesting - which I HOPE they aren't otherwise I will have to endure weeks of twittering baby birds >:( >:()
I am worried that it will disturb his sleep TBH - but I guess I might have no other option really.
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Liz, when DS woke this morning at 6am (which is a full hour early and rare for him) I thought of you! One thing that has happened over this past week is that he has been napping for 2h some days and 1hr40 for other days. On the days he is sleeping 2h, he has been going to bed at 730 and then waking at 6am -- 10.5 hours sleep. It is a new one for us as we always get full nights of 11.5-12h or we get OT nights of 10h. The 10.5 stumped me. BUT the days when he is only sleeping 1hr40min he is taking his full 11.5 hours of sleep at night.
So an extra 20 minutes in his nap is causing him to lose 1.5 off of his night. The first couple of times I didn't think anything of it, but after a week of watching this pattern I am convinced that the short nights are coming from too long of a nap. As I said it seems odd that 20 minutes of extra day sleep will rob an hour or more from his night but I feel like it is the only explanation in our case.
I know J is younger but has always made these transitions a good few weeks or month before my DS .... it makes me wonder if that is what is going on with J. He seems young to only need a bit less than 2h for his nap but he's always been low on sleep hasn't he?
Anyway it was just a thought, as I said at 6am I did think of you and so wanted to share.... xx
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Thanks Mash - that is interesting that 20 mins can have such a dramatic difference.
He seems a bit hyper during the day with less sleep - but I'm hoping that is just a bit of OT riding through as we try and sort this out.
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So on that theory my DS napping an hour could be causing his 2hr NWs :P
How was your night Liz and hope you get the birds sorted. What a PITA.
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i only just saw this!!! we always seem to go thru this together!!! Good to share eh?! ;)
worth a go with that final A time,i know shorter to bed has always been better for J but they seem to change their needs so quickly dont they!
hope this morning was better!!
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Man has just come and boarded up the hole so the boards can't get in ;D but he did say they would scratch at it for a few days now >:( until they give up.
J was late to bed last night as he was upset as his Daddy wasn't home in time to put him down to bed - and I had to resettle him a few times.
Ended up on 5.5hrs A after a 1.5hr nap and STTN without a peep at all. First time I heard him stir was at 6.05am and he was awake properly 10 mins later.
So it is *looking* like this is all UT, and I have been essentially waiting for the cr***y nights to make him OT enough to sleep on the shorter A's ::). This has always been my downfall with J - always the same UT/OT loops. I think because he is a good napper really and I get misled.
So Laura - this could be happening at your end I guess as well? Just more dramatic as it is less sleep?
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So it is *looking* like this is all UT, and I have been essentially waiting for the cr***y nights to make him OT enough to sleep on the shorter A's . This has always been my downfall with J - always the same UT/OT loops.
This is what I think.... So much emphasis on the not getting OT that all these LOs end up with UT issues!! ;D
So what's the plan for today and tonight?
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This is what I think.... So much emphasis on the not getting OT that all these LOs end up with UT issues!! ;D
One of the most common BWer traps really. Certainly on the EASY board.
Plan is 6hrs A - aim for 2 hr nap and then see.
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Let us know how you get on.
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Is it just me that feels kind of sorry for the birds lol?
Poor things trying to peck their way back in!
Just kidding.
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Birds Vs Sleep tough call... :P
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There are some lovely trees just down the road that has vacant branches :P
And there is no nest at all yet so I think they are just using my central heating without contribution ATM. I would have let then stay if they had eggs or baby birds - temporary rafter rental.
Napped for 2 hrs so set up for bedtime but it will be a little late :-\. We will see.
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Aww bless. Little birds. But yeah they can do lots of damage and really should be off doing their own thing not creeping into houses.
Good luck with bedtime! I agree it's weird that he would be running off to bed if he wasn't tired, but maybe it's just body clock thing that needs a reset?
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fingers crossed. Xx
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Good luck!
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Good luck Liz.