BabyWhispererForums.com
SLEEP => Night Wakings => Topic started by: lilredhen89 on March 31, 2010, 19:59:13 pm
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I have finally registered after reading on these boards for months because I need a second opinion on how to fix NWs for my 5mo DS.
A little history:
DS was born at 8lbs 1.5oz, gained weight quickly in the first few months (up to 13lbs by 2mos, then started slowing down around 3mo). He was always a good sleeper, and from about 1mo on he slept from 7pm, had a DF around 10:30-11pm, woke once for a feed between 3 and 4:30am, then woke for the day around 7am. At about 2mo, I realized he was not really hungry at night, merely waking from gas, and stopped the night feedings, though he continued to wake for about 2 weeks, and finally, around 2.5mo, slept through from the DF until 7am. At about 4mo, he hit that growth spurt, and the confusion started there. He began to wake again at night, but after the GS had subsided a bit, I stopped feeding him at night, and that was fine, but his wakeup began to get earlier and earlier, moving from 7 to 6:30am, then sometimes as early as 5. The Dr. recommended supplementing at the DF with formula (he had been exclusively bf). So, I did, and it worked...for 2 nights. Back to waking in the middle of the night and early wakings. A couple weeks ago, I realized that often, when I feed DS at 5 or 6 in the morning, he is perfectly willing to go back to sleep, so this is more like a NW than an EW. I finally resigned myself to the fact that he is just too big now to get through the whole night, and decided to just feed him at 5 or 6 when he wakes up so that we can both get back to sleep instead of me standing there for up to an hour doing pat/shh w/ minimal success (btw, with the time change recently, I decided not to bother him w/ it, so we are now on an 8am-8:30pm schedule, which used to be 7am-7:30pm). However, a couple mornings ago, I fed him at 6, and he didn't even seem that hungry, so now I'm not sure I should be reinforcing that waking. I am so confused!
So, here are the things I have taken into consideration:
~He may not be getting enough food throughout the day. To rectify this, I am going to do double-sided feedings (we normally do single-sided) for 3 days as suggested by Tracy to increase milk supply. I began last night, and he did indeed empty both breasts. I may even continue to offer both breasts for the bedtime feed as he often seems hungrier at that time and seems to get less.
~Perhaps he could take more formula (or exclusively formula) at the DF. He generally takes 3oz formula and one breast. Last night I was going to try 8oz formula only, but then decided that I didn't want to DECREASE my milk supply by cutting a feeding, as I tried pumping first and got virtually nothing. So, I gave him a few mins on each breast, then offered the bottle (had already mixed 8oz). He downed the WHOLE THING! The results: he woke once, around 5:15am, took about 10mins to settle with a couple of PU/PDs (though I admit, I may have rushed in), then slept until a few minutes before wakeup time at 8. No night feedings.
~Dropping the DF altogether, as he has been waking for it nightly. Last night I did W2S a little while before he would have awakened for the DF, and he did not wake up for it, though he did awaken while I was feeding him. If I were to drop the DF, I would just feed him once at night when he awakened. However, with the results of last night's big formula feed, I am not so sure this would be a good option.
~Introducing solids, though I do not plan on doing this quite yet, but I am wondering if it may help. He currently weighs about 17lbs at 5mo 1wk.
~Increasing 'A' Time a bit, as his naps have finally begun to right themselves (he had been a chronic 45min napper for about 3 months). He is currently doing 2 hours, though I think he may be ready for 2hrs15min.
Here is what our EASY generally looks like:
Wakeup: 8am
E - 8
A - 8:20-10:00am
S - 10 :00-11:30am
E - 12:00pm
A - 12:20-1:30pm
S - 1:30-3:30pm
E - 4:00pm
A - 4:20-5:30pm
S - 5:30-6:15pm
A - 6:15-8:00pm (bedtime routine starts around 7:30)
E - 8pm
S - by 8:30pm
DF - 11:00-11:30pm
TIA!
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I think that's a good idea.
Update on last night, I tried W2S at 10:15, and he still woke at 10:50. I got him back to sleep easily then at the DF I bf and gave 7oz formula. He woke at 4:55, went to sleep pretty easily with a little reassurance, woke again at 5:35 just a few mins after I left the room, then woke at 6:35, I fed him, he ate vigorously for only a couple of mins then lost interest. I put him back down at 6:45, and I believe he was awake until around 7:20, then he didn't want to wake up easily at 8, but I got him up anyway.
Quick question about increasing 'A' time. I remember reading that a lot of babies prefer a shorter morning A time, so should I work on extending the first, or just the later ones?
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Oh, and I also tried W2S at 4:30am as I noticed he always wakes between 5 and 5:30, but is rarely hungry.
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Okay, so yesterday was a bit of a mess, but I kept him up an extra 15mins for the first A time. It didn't go so well. It took him 20 minutes to settle down for his nap (usually takes about 5), and he woke at 40mins, whereas over the past 2 weeks the morning nap has been the good one (the 45min monster still hits in the PM nap, but I can usually resettle him). So, with these facts in mind, I understand why it's good to start with the first A time, but his morning nap has become so good, I kind of feel like that A time is perfect, but the later ones could potentially be pushed out as he is waking after 45mins then. What do you think?
Last night was a disaster. He woke about 45mins before the DF, fed on both breasts and took 4oz of formula. He woke at 5:35, same as the night before, then at 6:45, and I fed him then. Again, he was up for another 30-45mins after the feed, talking to himself, then went to sleep finally.
I am really thinking about dropping the DF. He is waking because of it, and I believe it is disrupting his night sleep. I think we would both get more sleep if I just fed him some formula alone with his bf at bedtime then fed him in the MOTN if he was hungry. But would this be a regression? I don't feel that the DF is really helping him anymore.
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Well, I would say yesterday was a pretty good success. He was up for 2 hours in the am, took a 2hr nap, though I had to resettle him after 45 mins. Then, I kept him up an extra 10 mins the next A time and he took a 1hr20min pm nap, completely unassisted.
The night was a little strange because we put him in his car seat at 11 for a 2 and a half hour car ride. Ugh. But I fed him an extra 3oz of EBM at bedtime, didn't do a dreamfeed, then fed him at 2:30am when we arrived at our destination. He slept until a few mins before wakeup at 8. So, it's hard to tell how things will work out as we had an abnormal night, but so far so good with dropping the DF and extending the second A time.
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Okay, so with traveling, this weekend was so off that I'm just going to disregard it entirely. However, last night showed great progress.
He seemed to be waking for the DF around 10:50pm exactly, so I did W2S an hour before. He woke up at 11:10pm, crying very hard (the night before this it happened at 12:30am). So, for the second night, we put some teething solution on his gums and he took his paci and went to sleep. He sprouted his first tooth almost 2 weeks ago, and I believe he's working on his second. Tonight I am going to give it to him BEFORE I put him to bed.
After that, he slept until 5:30am, nine and a half hours after his last feed!
As for extending A time, yesterday I added 15mins to the second A time, and he woke after only 30mins that nap, needing to be resettled. I think we're going to have to do it a little slower. So that brings me to a question. When extending A times, if I recall, I am supposed to do it little bits at a time for ONE A time at a time until I have that one pushed all the way out, then move to the next, right? I'm thinking that I may try only 10mins extra for 3 days, then add another 5, and do this for the second A time first, then the second, maybe the third, then when that's done, move back to the second A time and start pushing out to 2.5hrs. Does that make sense? What do you think? And also, if the first A time is still going well at 2hrs, do you think I should still come back to it and try to push it out any?
Thanks so much for all your help!
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Okay, here's an update. Extending the A times has been a little hit and miss, but it looks even more like he needs it now as it has started to take longer for him to settle in for his naps. We've pushed the 2nd A time out 10 mins pretty successfully, and now I'll add another 5, then continue with the rest.
As for night sleep, (other than last night, where he didn't get his CN and was very OT before bed), we've seen some major improvements. A couple nights ago I did W2S at 9:50pm, and he still woke crying at 10:50 and took a few mins to resettle. The night before last, I did W2S again at the same time, but moved him a LOT, until he was practically awake, then left quickly. He didn't wake up, and slept until 5am, when I fed him, then we both went back to sleep until 8am. Perfect! Last night was pretty bad, but like I said, he was definitely OT. So, now it's about time to go do W2S, but I wanted to check in.
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Okay, so things are going pretty well, but I have run into a new question. When I put DS down for his nap, it takes him 10-20mins to settle in. So, taking this into consideration, now that I am pushing out his A times, it is often close to 2.5 hours from the time he wakes up to the time he is asleep again...do I count this 15mins of settling as "A" time, or would I consider us to be at 2hr15min A time still and the settling time is just obsolete? So...I guess I'm wondering if I count any in-crib/settling time as A time or not. I know Tracy said in the book that unless they're in one of the stages of sleep, it's considered "A" time...so I'm a little confused. Help!
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Okay, awesome. So when I've bumped A time to 2.25 hrs outside of the crib but then it takes 15mins to settle even after wind-down, I can consider him to be at 2.5hrs? Though the only problem with this is that sometimes he goes to sleep instantly and sometimes he takes nearly 30mins! Generally, though, it's between 10 and 20. Do I just not worry about those minor inconsistencies?
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Sounds good. Naps are going well, but the catnap is causing problems as we push out his A times. It often ends just an hour and a half before bed, and then when he wakes at night he has a harder time settling and just doesn't seem tired! I know he cannot do without it yet, but I don't want to have to keep him up later just to avoid UT. I've read some of the thread for dropping the CN, and I gather it's a difficult transition, but I know we're not quite there yet. Any suggestions?
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Okay...well, our EASY has been a little strange with trying to push the A times and now that I know the settling time counts, that changes it too. He will be 6mo next Friday. Here's a general idea of how our EASY has been looking:
Wakeup: 8am
E - 8
A - 8:15-10am (takes a few mins to settle)
S - 10:15-11:45
E - 12
A - 12:15-1:55 (working on adding that extra 15min to this A time)
S - 2:10-4:10 (sometimes this is only a 1.5 hour nap)
E - 4:10
A - 4:25-6:10
S - 6:30-7:00 (it's been taking a long time for him to settle here)
A,E, bedtime at 8:30
Should I keep that 2nd nap to 1.5hrs so the CN isn't so late? Thanks for all your help!
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I am at my whit's end this morning! Last night he woke at 12:30, 2:50, 3:20, and 5:05am! He resettled pretty easily, and I fed him at 5am, but I don't know why this is happening! I have not done anything to encourage these wakings, I don't rush in and I try to just give him his binky and lovey, do shh/pat, then PU/PD if necessary. Looking back, I realized he has not slept through from bedtime to 5 or 6 in awhile. I don't think I've gotten more than 3 hours sleep in a stretch for weeks! What happened to my baby who had his DF then slept for 8 hours till morning? I know he can go that long without eating, so why is he waking at other times? His first two teeth came in on the bottom within two weeks of each other right after he turned 5 months. Could he just be teething, or do you think it's because his A times need tweaking?
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I am wondering if he's teething. I don't think his paci is a prop because I've always made sure he spits it out, and if he doesn't, I remove it. It is limited to the crib and car seat.
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hi gals - been reading your thread with interest because there are a few similarities to my DS who is a week off 7 months. Lilredhen - another reason he could have woken up like that last night is a GS - they can have a big GS at 6 months...its sounds like your doing amazingly well...have been gleaning info for our own NW issues.
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Last night was much better! Perfect, in fact. We had two 1.5hr naps and a 45min catnap, and he slept from 8:25pm-4:15am, I fed him, he made noises for just a moment at 7am, and at 8, when I went in to get him up, he was sleeping on his tummy! He learned to roll about a week and a half ago, but he never sleeps on his stomach. Chicane- thanks for the encouragement! And for the reminder about the 6mo growth spurt. I had all but forgotten it was coming up!
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yay!
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Okay, so maybe this is totally unrelated, and maybe not. I can't decide whether or not DS self-settles or not. He used to spit his binky out then talk to himself for 5-10mins and then go to sleep. Now, however, he will go on and on and on, and I'll look in to see him rubbing his eyes, seeming as if he wants to sleep, but not being able to settle. So, what has been happening is that I will let him go for about 15mins, yelling, talking, mantra crying (never actually crying), then I will go in, give him his binky and lovey, give him a kiss, and leave immediately. He then rolls over and goes right to sleep. Today, it struck me that maybe this is interfering too much. Here are the problems I think it could potentially be causing and my thoughts.
1. I could be taking away his ability to self-settle by interfering. However, if I leave him, I have no idea how long he will go! I've let him go as long as 35 mins and he seemed nowhere close to resettling, then he took a 35 min OT nap!
2. I could be creating a paci addiction, but he always spits it out when he goes to sleep. Also, he's SO close to learning to put it in by himself that I'm wondering if he won't just learn to stick it in and go to sleep when he's ready.
What do you think about this? It's not really an inconvenience to me to go back in after he's had some time, and it keeps his A times predictable and helps me avoid OT...I just don't know if it is causing potential problems or not. Any insight?
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Phew - I dunno! I think I would probably go in and give him a helping hand....
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Case in point: he woke from his first nap at 11:30am, started acting a little sleepy about 1:10. We started our wind-down around 1:15, and I had him in his crib by 1:35. He grunted and squawked and made all kinds of noises until I came in at 1:55, gave him his binky and lovey, turned him on his side, rubbed his back for a moment, and left. He woke up after 25 minutes. 25! He normally makes it at least 35, and I still have to intervene at 45mins often as he has been a 45 minute napper since he was 2.5 months old. He is, however, fairly easy to resettle most of the time, but right now he's not even going back to sleep! I'm thinking that things WERE going well with naps until I started trying to extend his A times. Now they're a mess. When I put him in bed a the two hour mark, then give him 15 minutes and he goes to sleep, he takes much better naps...so, maybe my problem was that I was miscalculating his A time by not counting that 15 minutes. I think I might leave it for a week or two and then try again. Dropping the DF seemed to be our biggest trick for helping the NW's, but I'm beginning to think that he's not quite ready to extend his A's.
Oh, and one other thing that may be a key is keeping his naps to 1.5hrs. Until we drop the CN, I think a 2hr nap messes with his night.
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yep - all you can do at this point is experiment with the times and see what works. I think you've made good progress though.
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Ugh! I am at a loss here! Nights are a complete disaster still! Two nights ago, he woke every hour from 2:30 on until 5:30, I fed him, and he still woke at 6:30, then slept until wakeup. Yesterday, he got a new tooth, so that may explain it. Last night, I put him to bed about 15 minutes early because he seemed so tired, and he kept crying at everything. He woke at 10:15, but then did well until he woke at 4:15. I went in, fed him, put some teething solution on his gums, and we both went back to sleep. But he woke at 5:30, talked to himself for quite awhile, and I finally went in at 6:15 to resettle, at which point he started crying hysterically. I put more teething stuff on, and he finally settled down to sleep. However, 7:30 comes around, and he's up talking to himself again! What is going on??? What do hourly wakings mean? It seems if I feed him anytime before 5 or 5:30am, he'll still keep waking up, whereas he used to ALWAYS sleep until wakeup when I fed him.
Our days have become good and predictable, but our nights are just falling apart. Maybe it is the A time, but when I try to extend, naps go crazy. Is it just the teething? HELP!
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I have these teething pellets with chamomile in them, and it seems to calm him down, but he is still waking like that...I am not too keen on using drugs, but I suppose I will call the doctor today and check on what to use. My concern is with giving him a pain killer before bedtime, what if it's not a bad teething night? How do I know when to give it? It does seem that his teeth are coming in pairs, at least the first two did, within two weeks of each other. With this one though, I'm not sure which one will come in next as it was not even one of the two front teeth! It seems to be a second or third tooth...I can't tell which, but certainly not what I expected!
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Well, the nurse pretty much said that sometimes the natural remedies just aren't strong enough, and that I could try Oragel, and also do the Motrin if he wakes earlier in the night and it seems like it may be a rough one. Since the Oragel is more for immediate relief, I may stick with the chamomile for that, but give Motrin on nights like last night in hopes of a longer-lasting solution.
One other note, this is kind of interesting...he woke this morning at 7:30 and talked to himself, and I went in to get him at 7:50. I still put him down for his nap at 10:05 though, and he was asleep by 10:15. So, altogether, he had a 2hr45min waketime, then still took a 1.5hr nap. So...maybe we can extend that A a little, but if he's out of his crib, he gets tired faster. Any suggestions?
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Agree with jay - a longer wind down could help there...or try to really mellow things down early on if he's out of the crib...no stimulation, just quiet time...also he'd be getting close to 6 months now wouldn't he? Not sure on his exact age but there is a major growth spurt at 6 months which can cause more NWs...sending you hugs love
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Well, he had the Motrin before bed, and it may have helped a little, but we still had multiple NWs...he seems to get upset when I leave the room at naptimes and bedtime. Yesterday I started to wonder about SA, and asked my mom if he was too young. She didn't think so, but also said that whenever we were sick or hurting, it seemed like we often just wanted a parent in the room for comfort, so that may be related to the teething as well. It seems like it could be sooo many things right now that I'm reluctant to really try tweaking too much. Ugh!
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Last night was better than most...he went to bed a little late, and the first waking wasn't until 4:30am...a 7.5 hour stretch. Once he went back to sleep, he woke again at 6, and I fed him, then he was back to sleep at 6:25, but woke at 6:50 and has been in there talking to himself! Why is he suddenly waking again, even after I have fed him? This never used to happen!
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Okay, so last night I gave him the motrin at his first waking, 3:30am. He still woke every hour. This definitely leads me to the conclusion that the paci is a prop. He still spits it out when he is asleep, but can't transition without it, though he is still doing a good morning nap and sleeping pretty well during the first part of the night.
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Well, thanks for all your help...one question though. When does everything sort out? It seems that a lot of people run into problems around the 4-6 month mark for various reasons. Nobody tells you that your LO may very well STTN and then revert. I know it is different for every LO, and I keep reminding myself that all of this is temporary, no matter what the issue, even if I never figure it out, he will grow out of it eventually. But is there any kind of average age where things really start settling down?
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Hi lilredhen
Well, my mother says everything gets easier around the 18 year mark and then it gets hard again around 27 years...then smooth sailing until about 35 years old after which there is a huge improvement! Then they have their own kids and you can laugh at them as much as you want, enjoy your grandkids and give them back at the end of the day!
xxx
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Lol! That is a fabulous encouragement...I hope my mother is enjoying her grandson! We live with her for another 3 weeks, and she is sure enjoying the days, but gets to miss out on night duty. Ah, well. Soon I'll have DH to help me on that one. =)